Mike Brown shooting thread - No indictment! Get out and protest!

[Himu]

Since you like touting logic and facts so much, here's some nice reading material for JayDub to catch up on. Not sure if he has upgraded his EMPATHY PENTIUM II chip yet but it's worth a shot!

http://www.vox.com/michael-brown-shooting-ferguson-mo/2014/8/19/6031759/ferguson-history-riots-police-brutality-civil-rights

[Phoenix Dark]

If it's true that Wilson sustained injuries it would have made FAR more sense to release a picture of him (censored to protect his identity) instead of a video assassinating Brown's character. That alone suggests something isn't right. If you're innocent, act innocent. You would think that the police would leak the medical examination report; if it showed undeniable damage it would pretty much deflate the momentum for Brown's case. Not saying it's right or justified but if Brown beat the shit out of a cop and got shot in response then most people would be

[Beezy]

Is it okay to at least "wait for the fact" that this isn't even the mike brown shooting, which MIGHT have something to do with why it doesn't match the police account of that shooting?

i'll "wait for the fact" that you've read the report on this non-mike brown shooting and then watched the video - see if you can see those overarm stabbing motions etc etc.

(aka Yes, i know it's not the Mike Brown shooting)

edit: ah - i see - i didn't mention the new shooting. But yeah - again - for the new shooting : watch the video - listen to the description of what happened in the police's eyes and then watched what happens. Whilst the guy did seem to be acting odd, the police take on what happened and the reality are pretty far apart.

Link to what the police said happened in this shooting?

[etiolate]

Bah I didn't read the link closely. I uh blame GAF for the misleading link.

[Steve Youngblood]

If it's true that Wilson sustained injuries it would have made FAR more sense to release a picture of him (censored to protect his identity) instead of a video assassinating Brown's character. That alone suggests something isn't right. If you're innocent, act innocent. You would think that the police would leak the medical examination report; if it showed undeniable damage it would pretty much deflate the momentum for Brown's case. Not saying it's right or justified but if Brown beat the shit out of a cop and got shot in response then most people would be

Right. If Ferguson PD wanted to change the narrative from a clear cut case of an unarmed man being mercilessly gunned down, you'd think they'd be playing up facets of the case like Wilson sustaining serious injuries, or the fact that there might be as many as a dozen witnesses that corroborates Wilson's version of events if that one Post Dispatch Crime Reporter (who was on FMLA at the time) is to be believed. Evidence like that would go much further towards explaining why a decision about whether or not to indict might take months. Not leaking the convenient store robbery footage.

[Phoenix Dark]

If it's true that Wilson sustained injuries it would have made FAR more sense to release a picture of him (censored to protect his identity) instead of a video assassinating Brown's character. That alone suggests something isn't right. If you're innocent, act innocent. You would think that the police would leak the medical examination report; if it showed undeniable damage it would pretty much deflate the momentum for Brown's case. Not saying it's right or justified but if Brown beat the shit out of a cop and got shot in response then most people would be

Yup, in a nutshell. Instead these guys are taking their time, moving shifty as fuck, and coming up with some Rick Ross caliber ducktales (Image removed from quote.)

I really want to see that medical report. Obviously anything can be faked but still...

Wilson was videotaped and photographed standing over the body. He looked fine. If he eye socket was fucked up he would be bleeding or at least look dazed. And yet he looks fine in all the photos I've seen.

[Madrun Badrun]

http://www.thewire.com/national/2014/08/aclu-says-officer-who-threatened-to-fcking-kill-ferguson-protesters-taken-off-duty/378877/

[Himu]

I just don't understand why people don't realize nor understand that if the police response was justified, this would have been over 11 days ago. If the police had confidence in their statements, we would have had an incident report, proof of said beating, and they wouldn't have filed Wilson out of town while he was mowing his grass.

Claim some guy fractured your orbitals after you were standing around chilling near his dead body for hours instead of documenting your story and receiving medical attention brehs

Release autopsy reports that don't detail any physical trauma to Browns hands, arms or face hat would occur from a serious physical altercation brehs

Fraud your way out of manslaughter when you're supposed to protect the people brehs

Be black brehs

[Brehvolution]

Claim some guy fractured your orbitals after you were standing around chilling near his dead body for hours instead of documenting your story and receiving medical attention brehs

This is what I don't get. Wilson was "beaten" so bad yet he stood over the body for hours.

[Phoenix Dark]

Yup, if Brown had hit him that hard it would be evident based on his hands. This is some cornball shit.

Thank god DOJ is there.

[Steve Youngblood]

I just don't understand why people don't realize nor understand that if the police response was justified, this would have been over 11 days ago. If the police had confidence in their statements, we would have had an incident report, proof of said beating, and they wouldn't have filed Wilson out of town while he was mowing his grass.

The only argument I can kind of understand -- and I stress the "kind of" part because I'm not any sort of expert on these sorts of issues of legal protocol -- is that releasing information like that about an ongoing investigation is either against protocol, or there are concerns that it weakens the defense? With the different agencies involved and concern about an angry populace that is anxious to see justice served, I can kind of see why you might wait until all your ducks are in a row before presenting the slam dunk package of evidence that contradicts what people currently believed happen.

But again, I'm ignorant of protocol and how this stuff usually goes down. Intuitively, I feel like this stuff would either be officially released or unofficially leaked via better means than what we've been seeing it (i.e. proof of Wilson's broken orbital bone available exclusively on some racist website).

[Great Rumbler]

[Himu]

I just don't understand why people don't realize nor understand that if the police response was justified, this would have been over 11 days ago. If the police had confidence in their statements, we would have had an incident report, proof of said beating, and they wouldn't have filed Wilson out of town while he was mowing his grass.

The only argument I can kind of understand -- and I stress the "kind of" part because I'm not any sort of expert on these sorts of issues of legal protocol -- is that releasing information like that about an ongoing investigation is either against protocol, or there are concerns that it weakens the defense? With the different agencies involved and concern about an angry populace that is anxious to see justice served, I can kind of see why you might wait until all your ducks are in a row before presenting the slam dunk package of evidence that contradicts what people currently believed happen.

But again, I'm ignorant of protocol and how this stuff usually goes down. Intuitively, I feel like this stuff would either be officially released or unofficially leaked via better means than what we've been seeing it (i.e. proof of Wilson's broken orbital bone available exclusively on some racist website).

But let's be real, they released the shop video to the public despite being advised not to, so it's pretty clear they don't give a shit about protocol anyways.

[Steve Youngblood]

I just don't understand why people don't realize nor understand that if the police response was justified, this would have been over 11 days ago. If the police had confidence in their statements, we would have had an incident report, proof of said beating, and they wouldn't have filed Wilson out of town while he was mowing his grass.

The only argument I can kind of understand -- and I stress the "kind of" part because I'm not any sort of expert on these sorts of issues of legal protocol -- is that releasing information like that about an ongoing investigation is either against protocol, or there are concerns that it weakens the defense? With the different agencies involved and concern about an angry populace that is anxious to see justice served, I can kind of see why you might wait until all your ducks are in a row before presenting the slam dunk package of evidence that contradicts what people currently believed happen.

But again, I'm ignorant of protocol and how this stuff usually goes down. Intuitively, I feel like this stuff would either be officially released or unofficially leaked via better means than what we've been seeing it (i.e. proof of Wilson's broken orbital bone available exclusively on some racist website).

But let's be real, they released the shop video to the public despite being advised not to, so it's pretty clear they don't give a shit about protocol anyways.

Yes. But I think the technicality you can hide behind with that move is that the robbery isn't an ongoing investigation -- it's a different incident report.

[I'm a Puppy!]

I just don't understand why people don't realize nor understand that if the police response was justified, this would have been over 11 days ago. If the police had confidence in their statements, we would have had an incident report, proof of said beating, and they wouldn't have filed Wilson out of town while he was mowing his grass.

The only argument I can kind of understand -- and I stress the "kind of" part because I'm not any sort of expert on these sorts of issues of legal protocol -- is that releasing information like that about an ongoing investigation is either against protocol, or there are concerns that it weakens the defense? With the different agencies involved and concern about an angry populace that is anxious to see justice served, I can kind of see why you might wait until all your ducks are in a row before presenting the slam dunk package of evidence that contradicts what people currently believed happen.

But again, I'm ignorant of protocol and how this stuff usually goes down. Intuitively, I feel like this stuff would either be officially released or unofficially leaked via better means than what we've been seeing it (i.e. proof of Wilson's broken orbital bone available exclusively on some racist website).

It can't be against protocol. That guy that was shot for having a knife, the police were immediate in their response of releasing information.

[Steve Youngblood]

I just don't understand why people don't realize nor understand that if the police response was justified, this would have been over 11 days ago. If the police had confidence in their statements, we would have had an incident report, proof of said beating, and they wouldn't have filed Wilson out of town while he was mowing his grass.

The only argument I can kind of understand -- and I stress the "kind of" part because I'm not any sort of expert on these sorts of issues of legal protocol -- is that releasing information like that about an ongoing investigation is either against protocol, or there are concerns that it weakens the defense? With the different agencies involved and concern about an angry populace that is anxious to see justice served, I can kind of see why you might wait until all your ducks are in a row before presenting the slam dunk package of evidence that contradicts what people currently believed happen.

But again, I'm ignorant of protocol and how this stuff usually goes down. Intuitively, I feel like this stuff would either be officially released or unofficially leaked via better means than what we've been seeing it (i.e. proof of Wilson's broken orbital bone available exclusively on some racist website).

It can't be against protocol. That guy that was shot for having a knife, the police were immediate in their response of releasing information.

Yeah. Like I said, I absolutely don't have any expertise on this. I'm just trying to understand why -- if strong evidence exists supporting Wilson -- it hasn't been officially released or leaked yet. "Obviously, it's because this evidence doesn't exists, Steve" you might say. And sure, that's definitely a strong possibility. But if that's the case, I just can't understand why the indictment process would be so long and drawn out.

[Steve Contra]

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/08/ferguson-and-the-debtors-prison.html

From a libertarian source, but a good read.

[Eric P]

man, those are some insane comments

[Beezy]

Bah I didn't read the link closely. I uh blame GAF for the misleading link.

I doubt you've been following the Mike Brown situation at all if you confused that vid for his shooting.

[etiolate]

Bah I didn't read the link closely. I uh blame GAF for the misleading link.

I doubt you've been following the Mike Brown situation at all if you confused that vid for his shooting.

You would be mistaken.

[Steve Contra]

man, those are some insane comments

The best are the "so you think people walking in the middle of the street shouldn't be ticketed?" like there isn't a middle ground between letting people jaywalk and shooting them.

[Joe Molotov]

man, those are some insane comments

The best are the "so you think people walking in the middle of the street shouldn't be ticketed?" like there isn't a middle ground between letting people jaywalk and shooting them.

Remember when that cops held that guy down on the BART and then accidentally shot him while reaching for a taser? Maybe Darren Wilson was just reaching for his ticket pad but accidentally grabbed his gun instead. Wait for all the evidence.

[Steve Contra]

It took 30 days for that cop in Oakland to get arrested because WAIT FOR ALL THE FACTS while there was a video of him shooting Oscar. :'(

[AdmiralViscen]

Eric garner was murdered with the entire event, beginning to end, on video, using an illegal chokehold, and no ones arrested.

[Joe Molotov]

Eric garner was murdered with the entire event, beginning to end, on video, using an illegal chokehold, and no ones arrested.

Police were able to keep persons of a certain continental origin under control that time, so there was no need to scapegoat somebody.

[Great Rumbler]

Eric garner was murdered with the entire event, beginning to end, on video, using an illegal chokehold, and no ones arrested.

No one's been arrested, despite the medical examiner ruling nearly three weeks ago that Garner's death was a homicide. So yeah, think about that for a second.

[brawndolicious]

Yeah I would agree that the only reason they might have waited before reporting that Brown had beaten the officer badly is if the protocol for police shootings requires waiting to collect all the facts before presenting any evidence to the public.

But they didn't wait long to say that Brown was shoplifting even when they knew the officer had no idea and the DoJ told them not to do that. The biggest problem is a jury will want to see a reason why an officer would shoot a man and it's hard to say he was just paranoid and too aggressive. I mean the BART cop only got involuntary manslaughter for shooting a handcuffed man on the ground and George Zimmerman was acquitted even though he was clearly a wannabe vigilante.

[Brehvolution]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gary-mccoy-cartoon-ferguson

[DCharlieJP]

a) In the St. Louis shooting, guy holding knife screams kill me and walks towards police officer.  Mental issues, obvious suicide by cop, entire event on film.  Not much ambiguity there.  Surprised anyone thought it was the Brown shooting.

Police account paints a picture of him charging the vehicle brandishing knife in overhand grip. http://www.vox.com/2014/8/19/6045849/police-shot-and-killed-another-black-man-in-the-st-louis-area/in/5757650

"a) In the St. Louis shooting, guy holding knife screams kill me and walks towards police officer.  Mental issues, obvious suicide by cop, entire event on film.  Not much ambiguity there.  Surprised anyone thought it was the Brown shooting.

I can't hear any shouts of Kill me now, repeatedly, and agian - minor robbery leads to a death and the response "well, we could have used non-lethal force but what about us cops?" or, as the police chief put it,  “I think officer safety is the number one issue.” Which... given the backdrop of what has being happening isnt the wisest statement to roll out.

Anyways, fine, suicide by police office ... another easy out ! but why embelish the details and make shit up? Again - this just starts to look "we gunna have to justify this one a bit stronger". The more times they add bits here and bets there then it -will- get linked to the Brown shooting because it starts to look like sticking to facts isn't something this PD is particularly that good at.

Also - noticed a lot of non-lethal things aren't standard issue - tazers join that list.

[Human Snorenado]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/don-lemon-talib-kweli-cnn-ferguson--2

Maybe you should get back in the studio, breh

[Himu]

Talib

[Madrun Badrun]

plasma

[Boogie]

I can't hear any shouts of Kill me now, repeatedly,

I can clearly hear the subject yell "Shoot me!  Shoot me!   Shoot me now, motherfucker!"

Also - noticed a lot of non-lethal things aren't standard issue - tazers join that list.

Yes, but it generally isn't the frontline officers making the decision not to have tasers as standard issue.   Officers want to have the taser as an option.   It's usually funding limitations or police board-imposed restrictions that prevent every frontline officer from having access to tasers (at least from my own awareness).

[huckleberry]

In related police shooting news:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/21/3474119/one-of-the-two-officers-who-killed-a-man-in-wal-mart-is-back-to-work/

Police said Crawford was waving the rifle at customers, but Crawford’s lawyer said store surveillance video shows Crawford was just holding the BB gun he likely intended to buy.

The police were called by a customer in the store who reported someone wielding a gun. “When the police came … the BB gun was in a down position,” Wright said. “He was kinda using the BB gun as what it looked like was a crutch. He was just leaning on it. And at some point, he raised it up and he was shot and killed. At no point in time was he facing the officers. At no point in time was there any type of suggestive movements or anything like that.”

Fuck the facts.

[DCharlieJP]

pointing guns in peoples face is Police biznez!

I can clearly hear the subject yell "Shoot me!  Shoot me!   Shoot me now, motherfucker!"

huh? I will listen again - i can here commotion but not those words.

However, did you see any of the other actions the police claimed happened?


I dunno, maybe i'm getting all George Bush here with this "we err on the side of life!" (applies to brain dead religious people only) but certainly in Japan they have a whole range of options to deal with crazy people that they deploy DAILY without having to take a life.

[DCharlieJP]

but if the guy was brandishing a knife in any way, I understand why they did what they did

why are the US police so ill equipped to deal with this (or less prepared to deal with this) than , say, UK cops... Japan cops?

Both deal regularly with mentally unstable armed members of the public without the need to resort to lethal force - the idea that "officers safety comes first", whilst an ideal, it is seen as part of the risk of the services in the UK (including rescue services)

[Human Snorenado]

I'm just spitballing here, but maybe the UK and Japan both simultaneously provide better access to mental health care and don't lock up non-violent drug offenders like they're murderers, creating a large criminal class of people who just want to get fucked up.

[Boogie]

The discrepancy between the video and the initial account could be "embellishment."

But it can also be a factor of trying to put info about a critical incident out too quickly.

It is a fact that in a critical incident, the human memory does funny things.  Distortion of events, time.  The initial recollection of such an incident often is incomplete.  Details about such an incident can become clearer 48 hours or longer after the fact.  If the officers' supervisors get an initial account from them right after the fact, it may not be the best account and contain inaccuracies.  If the brass then passes that account to the media, it makes them look bad if it is later found to not match up.

There is quite a bit of research on this subject.

[Rufus]

In related police shooting news:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/21/3474119/one-of-the-two-officers-who-killed-a-man-in-wal-mart-is-back-to-work/

Police said Crawford was waving the rifle at customers, but Crawford’s lawyer said store surveillance video shows Crawford was just holding the BB gun he likely intended to buy.

The police were called by a customer in the store who reported someone wielding a gun. “When the police came … the BB gun was in a down position,” Wright said. “He was kinda using the BB gun as what it looked like was a crutch. He was just leaning on it. And at some point, he raised it up and he was shot and killed. At no point in time was he facing the officers. At no point in time was there any type of suggestive movements or anything like that.”

Fuck the facts.

Fucking hell. This is so unreal. 

[Boogie]

granted, but those same factors might be in play with the mike brown account, as well, right?  that's more the point i was trying to make.

Sure, of course.

why are the US police so ill equipped to deal with this (or less prepared to deal with this) than , say, UK cops... Japan cops?

Both deal regularly with mentally unstable armed members of the public without the need to resort to lethal force - the idea that "officers safety comes first", whilst an ideal, it is seen as part of the risk of the services in the UK (including rescue services)

I don't know from a "macro" level what accounts for the difference (well, beyond the fact that UK beat cops don't carry sidearms ), but all I can say is, from a personal perspective, that a knife-wielding subject is a lethal threat, and I am not going to take my chances and wrestle him for it.

[Kara]

why are the US police so ill equipped to deal with this (or less prepared to deal with this) than , say, UK cops... Japan cops?

Both deal regularly with mentally unstable armed members of the public without the need to resort to lethal force - the idea that "officers safety comes first", whilst an ideal, it is seen as part of the risk of the services in the UK (including rescue services)

I'd say the prevalence of guns here versus those places is a relevant factor.

[DCharlieJP]

I'm just spitballing here, but maybe the UK and Japan both simultaneously provide better access to mental health care and don't lock up non-violent drug offenders like they're murderers, creating a large criminal class of people who just want to get fucked up.

bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaaaa - I think Oscar already covered this one.

I don't know from a "macro" level what accounts for the difference (well, beyond the fact that UK beat cops don't carry sidearms ), but all I can say is, from a personal perspective, that a knife-wielding subject is a lethal threat, and I am not going to take my chances and wrestle him for it.

well, i assume cops get knife defense training (f-ck, *I* have that training (#notacop)) but there are means - net guns are popular in Japan and with knife crime so huge in London there aren't many cops getting stabbed when they close it down.

but yeah - there's a clear difference from your side too - you aren't going to wrestle down a knife weilder, i am sure most cops feel the same. The jump to pumping them full of lead is the part that gets me. If we are at the point that "officers safety comes first" and all you have is lethal force? This is going to go on and on and on and on .....

[Boogie]

well, i assume cops get knife defense training (f-ck, *I* have that training (

Okay, now it's time for *me* to pull out a "bwaaaaaaaaaaaaahahaha"

Yeah, we do just enough knife defence training to learn how fucked you are if you try to go hands-on with a knife-wielding assailant.

[Madrun Badrun]

Just round kick him like Ralphy

[Human Snorenado]

I'm just spitballing here, but maybe the UK and Japan both simultaneously provide better access to mental health care and don't lock up non-violent drug offenders like they're murderers, creating a large criminal class of people who just want to get fucked up.

 

 

Probably has more to do with empowering cops over here as trigger happy fucktards as opposed to public servants then? Again, don't know what it's like over there so hard to say from my standpoint.

[Great Rumbler]

All this talk of edged weapons reminded me of one of my favorite Youtube videos:

[DCharlieJP]

Okay, now it's time for *me* to pull out a "bwaaaaaaaaaaaaahahaha"

Yeah, we do just enough knife defence training to learn how fucked you are if you try to go hands-on with a knife-wielding assailant.

well, knowing what to do and not to do i count as part of that training. First rule of the Jujitsu club i went with was that any self defense grading that didn't start with a mat step out was a fail.

Anyways, i'm not talking about steaming in like Jackie Chan or shooting a knife out of a perps hands with a shuriken whilst doing a cartwheel - the point is knife defense training, i assume, doesn't just end with "oh just whip out a gun and plug him"

Probably has more to do with empowering cops over here as trigger happy fucktards as opposed to public servants then? Again, don't know what it's like over there so hard to say from my standpoint.

it's more to do with there being near zero mental health care or even fecking awareness in Japan.

[Steve Contra]

All this talk of edged weapons reminded me of one of my favorite Youtube videos:

There is no part of Surviving Edged Weapons that isn't amazing.

[Madrun Badrun]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/florida-college-student-accidently-killed-orlando-police-shootout-article-1.1910243

[Rufus]

Not to turn this into the police brutality (or bat shit insanity, as it were) thread, but...


Oklahoma City policeman arrested for raping women while on patrol
More details here: http://newsok.com/cop-arrested-accused-of-sexually-assaulting-at-least-6-women-while-on-patrol/article/5334344

[Great Rumbler]

Oklahoma City policeman arrested for raping women while on patrol
More details here: http://newsok.com/cop-arrested-accused-of-sexually-assaulting-at-least-6-women-while-on-patrol/article/5334344

Just in case you needed anything more to make that WaPo article from a few pages ago ring even more hollow, there you go.

[Himu]

Oklahoma City policeman arrested for raping women while on patrol
More details here: http://newsok.com/cop-arrested-accused-of-sexually-assaulting-at-least-6-women-while-on-patrol/article/5334344

Just in case you needed anything more to make that WaPo article from a few pages ago ring even more hollow, there you go.

Which one?

[Great Rumbler]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/19/im-a-cop-if-you-dont-want-to-get-hurt-dont-challenge-me/

[Shadow Mod]

Remember how that one woman was fingered by a cop and the judge was like "that's what you get for wearing skank clothes in a bar."

Justice system.

[Skidmark]

Thought I would drop this link for you guys here:

St. Louis police release video, audio of deadly police shooting (graphic)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=df3_1408576637#zefz6uaGbJetokLU.99

Also, y'all need to get educated!!

[Himu]

[Joe Molotov]

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/The_Body_In_The_Street

[ZephyrFate]

Shoot unarmed black kid, get 200,000 sent to you by white people protecting their own. smfh

[seagrams hotsauce]

So apparently the GoFundMe for Wilson was set up by a Ferguson PD public affairs officer. Yikes.
https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/statuses/502939790241976323

[Madrun Badrun]