Rachel Dolezal

[jakefromstatefarm]

Whereas ethnicity and sex are biological - ie if you have XX chromosomes you're genetically female.

If we're defining ethnicity as haplotypic likeness among a given population, sure. But imo that's far removed from what 'ethnicity' means the majority of the time its used and any distinctions made between differentiating ethnicity A and ethnicity B are going to be arbitrary. Dolezal isn't looking to rearrange her alleles in order to contract sickle cell anemia, she's emulating black American culture, which, to me at least, puts this squarely within the cultural appropriation debate. Himu brought up how she has a 'mask' of blackness that she can potentially take off and assume whiteness, which many black Americans can't do and Himu rightly felt angry about. That reminded me of the transableism discussion from last week; I think that's the parallel you wanna draw with transracialism (which I'm still not convinced comprises an actual subculture: I googled and found a) the nationalreport article that benji posted a while back -which it should be noted featured a jpeg of a guy in blackface, bang-up job benji- and b) a whole slew of medical shit my social science brain couldn't handle defining it as 'racial dysphoria,' which could constitute its own post about the pathologization of deviant behavior :foucauxpert).

[Himu]

Racial dysphoria. Compare it to gender identity dysphoria, which is the medical condition described for transsexuality. A big problem with transracial definition is that the definition many are using here does not correspond with the actual definition in the dictionary. That's because, from what I know, it does not have a scientific label. Is there an actual culture or community of these people? Do they have support groups? Do they have suicide hotlines? The trans comparison just makes me want to cut someone even more.

Another takeaway is this, as a white women, she could only really be the lightest of black skin tones. That in itself is privilege.

himuro really fucking hates this woman. it's like a puddles vendetta but with more emoticons.

I don't hate her. I hate what she's caused with her foolishness.

[Mandark]

And from the FIRST PAGE of that book:

First, let's get the disclaimer out of the way. This book is not How to Become a Black Person If You Are Not Already Black. You cannot use this book as a magic potion. You cannot digest the printed copy and expect some supernatural physical transformation beyond painful indigestion. If you purchased the book with the intention of changing your race, I thank you for your money, but there will be no refunds. None.

[Phoenix Dark]

This is going to make Arrested Development S5 amazing.

[Himu]

[Trent Dole]

I was gonna say 'hey this is like Passing but in reverse(?!) but himu has already made mention of that in her epic screeds against this lady.

[Beezy]

You can't actually be serious.

[benjipwns]

[benjipwns]

 

[Vertigo]

 

[Beezy]

 

[Phoenix Dark]

#PrayForHimu

[Himu]

Honestly getting sick as shit of Himu being a goddamn bigot.

Fucking stop. You of all people should check yourself for a minute.

Fucking hell this shit is weird.

At first I thought you were joking and were doing a pretty good satire of the commentary on this but now I'm convinced you may be just a moron instead. Not sure, please enlighten me.

[Himu]

 

Oh my lord

[I'm a Puppy!]

See tumblr generation? See what you get when you make strangers check their privilege in the alps?!

[Himu]

People are already using the argument to use transphobic arguments that we are similarly manipulative. This woman and her situation could make things better or worse for us. Time will tell. So far, I'm leaning on worse.

This woman and her situation could make things better or worse for us. Time will tell. So far, I'm leaning on worse.

better or worse for us. So far, I'm leaning on worse.

BETTER OR WORSE

WORSE[/b]

[Mr. Nobody]

You can't actually be serious.

You know good and well contrarians don't actually care about what they're fighting for/against 

[Madrun Badrun]

At the very least this women will be a cottage industry for humanities papers for the next few years.

[Himu]

I REALLY want scientists/neurobiologists/sociologists/psychologists to study this and tell us what they find

[I'm a Puppy!]

"She crazy"

[I'm a Puppy!]

 

Great now I have an identity crisis.
Am I cis latino? Or trans-white?

On a serious note

[benjipwns]

The Smartest Nerd in the Room: Why Melissa Harris-Perry is America's foremost public intellectual, and what she means

[Yeti]

After getting away with it for so long, I wonder how she finally slipped up. Did she get caught listening to country music or something?

[Rufus]

After getting away with it for so long, I wonder how she finally slipped up. Did she get caught listening to country music or something?

Her parents outed her.

[Himu]

yo

[Barry Egan]

My guess is that if elective surgery advances to the point where people could realistically be mistaken for another race, this form of subjectivity will become more common.  I can easily imagine an otaku nerd paying to look Japanese and claiming that inside he's been Japanese all along.  The historical evidence for this type of identification is fairly prevalent if you think about it, the technology just hasn't been there to make it a reality (yet).

[Tristam]

Race is hereditary, gender is social.

As it is, race as we know it, is a fairly modern concept. You are correct, it is a social construct.

You say that gender is a social construct and not observable by science and you are completely, 100% flat on your face incorrect.

  Am I missing something?

[Atramental]

[Himu]

Sorry, I explained that wrong. Let me try to explain it from my view. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Racial features are hereditary. However, the division of races as an IDEA is very much a social construct created by Europeans in early modern times to divide and flex European superiority. That said, race is still mostly hereditary. Someone who is mixed and is racially ambiguous has the racial makeup of multiple races that makes it hard to make them appear as a specific race. Our Vin Deisel example is a great one. The system of racial division due to these differences is very much a social construct. A social construct does not mean these differences do not exist.

On the other hand, in order to talk about gender, we must separate gender and sex. Gender is not sex, as gender is mostly a fluid system of roles and characteristics which includes biological sex (male, female, intersex), gender roles, or gender identity. In many cultures and historically, gender roles and identities change. In countries like Samoa, sometimes these roles blur deeply between lines and roles. However, that does not change persons SEX and much like race, can still end up being ambiguous.

Race, while having nuance as people can be racially ambiguous, is still mostly hereditary as physical racial differences are observable.

Gender, as an expression of femininity and masculinity and the roles between them, is mostly based around a social construction. For example, earlier in the 1900's blue was for girls, pink was for boys or how Ashley was a boys name. It's a system of rules and expression of femininity and masculinity that change over time.

[Himu]

Of course, that's all coming from the mind of an American, a place where we deem one drop of black blood to be a black person. In places like South America and some place places like the Caribbean, race definitions can be distinct and diverse. Of course, that could be interpreted as a way of brain washing the black population in to trying to convince themselves they are not negro. Black in Latin America is a great take on that, particularly the Brazil or Cuba episode to my memory. I remember finding their definitions of race to be a lot more freeform and beautiful, compared to our American rigid definition of race.

So I could be completely wrong. I admit that.

[Samson Manhug]

My guess is that if elective surgery advances to the point where people could realistically be mistaken for another race, this form of subjectivity will become more common.  I can easily imagine an otaku nerd paying to look Japanese and claiming that inside he's been Japanese all along.  The historical evidence for this type of identification is fairly prevalent if you think about it, the technology just hasn't been there to make it a reality (yet).

I don't think we need advances in elective surgery to increase the subjectivity of race. It's already 100% subjective. It has nothing to do with the human genome and everything to do with how you are perceived/perceive yourself.

For instance, look at these children:



What race are they? By today's standards, we'd probably call them white. But when these photos were taken in the mid-19th century, those children were considered black. It's complicated because their racial identity was tied to slavery and property, but because their mother was black, they were black (and thus slaves.) I know that Rachel Dolezal did not have black parents so it's not a direct comparison. But I just want to show that what we think are concrete ideas about race (Rachel is white, X is black, etc.) is just dependent on the social norms of today. I don't mean to insult any transgendered person, but these binary definitions of race some are expressing in this thread are similar to the intolerance transgender people face.

No one can tell you what race you are. They might have an opinion, but the reality is there is no scientific way to define it. Your ethnicity is tied to your DNA. We can tell you where your ancestors came from geographically, but there's no black gene or white gene. We are all a mix of all sorts of different types of humans through the millennia and we all have roughly the same variation in our genetic makeup regardless of our skin color. Race is not ethnicity just like gender is not sex.

As Queen of Ice rightly pointed out, the modern concept of race was invented to oppress non-Europeans (and more specifically the non-English.) Public consensus on on race has changed considerably in the last couple hundred years. In Ben Franklin's writings he opined that anyone not English wasn't "purely white" (the French, German, and Swedes had "swarthy" complexions.) Today, most would consider that ludicrous.

So I think people should consider this when they start defining what race people are. In the end, is it hurting anything besides your sensibilities if a woman you consider white identifies as black?

[Tristam]

Sorry, I explained that wrong. Let me try to explain it from my view. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Racial features are hereditary. However, the division of races as an IDEA is very much a social construct created by Europeans in early modern times to divide and flex European superiority. That said, race is still mostly hereditary. Someone who is mixed and is racially ambiguous has the racial makeup of multiple races that makes it hard to make them appear as a specific race. Our Vin Deisel example is a great one. The system of racial division due to these differences is very much a social construct. A social construct does not mean these differences do not exist.

On the other hand, in order to talk about gender, we must separate gender and sex. Gender is not sex, as gender is mostly a fluid system of roles and characteristics which includes biological sex (male, female, intersex), gender roles, or gender identity. In many cultures and historically, gender roles and identities change. In countries like Samoa, sometimes these roles blur deeply between lines and roles. However, that does not change persons SEX and much like race, can still end up being ambiguous.

Race, while having nuance as people can be racially ambiguous, is still mostly hereditary as physical racial differences are observable.

Gender, as an expression of femininity and masculinity and the roles between them, is mostly based around a social construction. For example, earlier in the 1900's blue was for girls, pink was for boys or how Ashley was a boys name. It's a system of rules and expression of femininity and masculinity that change over time.

You're not wrong -- this is on point -- though I would caution against romanticizing racial relations in a place like Brazil.

[chronovore]

Vin Diesel always looked Italian to me. Meh.

[chronovore]

How is race a social construct? Black skin isn't my imagination. Neither are different features that blacks, hispanics, etc have.

Are you trolling or not?

I did find all the weird Japanese prejudice against Koreans and Chinese to be utterly befuddling. Many Japanese people claim that they can tell the difference between the three races at-a-glance, but I've never met anyone who actually can. It's tremendous horseshittery.

So, to me, some forms of race are nearly exclusively a social construct.

[Samson Manhug]

Even colors are a social construct in some sense. Has anyone here heard the Radiolab episode on how ancient Greeks couldn't see the color blue? Really interesting stuff.

[Himu]

My guess is that if elective surgery advances to the point where people could realistically be mistaken for another race, this form of subjectivity will become more common.  I can easily imagine an otaku nerd paying to look Japanese and claiming that inside he's been Japanese all along.  The historical evidence for this type of identification is fairly prevalent if you think about it, the technology just hasn't been there to make it a reality (yet).

I don't think we need advances in elective surgery to increase the subjectivity of race. It's already 100% subjective. It has nothing to do with the human genome and everything to do with how you are perceived/perceive yourself.

The problem is that you gave light skin examples. Like Rachel Dolezal, who is light skinned - and went around dressed as a lightskinned black woman - light skin people are people who can enjoy this "100% subjectivity" you talk about. I have caramel skin. There is nothing subjective about my race. I would think most people are like that. Not all, because there are many multi-racial exceptions like the one you gave.

How is race a social construct? Black skin isn't my imagination. Neither are different features that blacks, hispanics, etc have.

Are you trolling or not?

I did find all the weird Japanese prejudice against Koreans and Chinese to be utterly befuddling. Many Japanese people claim that they can tell the difference between the three races at-a-glance, but I've never met anyone who actually can. It's tremendous horseshittery.

So, to me, some forms of race are nearly exclusively a social construct.

For the most part, I've noticed Japanese tend to have bigger eyes than Chinese. Could be wrong in that observation?

Sorry, I explained that wrong. Let me try to explain it from my view. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Racial features are hereditary. However, the division of races as an IDEA is very much a social construct created by Europeans in early modern times to divide and flex European superiority. That said, race is still mostly hereditary. Someone who is mixed and is racially ambiguous has the racial makeup of multiple races that makes it hard to make them appear as a specific race. Our Vin Deisel example is a great one. The system of racial division due to these differences is very much a social construct. A social construct does not mean these differences do not exist.

On the other hand, in order to talk about gender, we must separate gender and sex. Gender is not sex, as gender is mostly a fluid system of roles and characteristics which includes biological sex (male, female, intersex), gender roles, or gender identity. In many cultures and historically, gender roles and identities change. In countries like Samoa, sometimes these roles blur deeply between lines and roles. However, that does not change persons SEX and much like race, can still end up being ambiguous.

Race, while having nuance as people can be racially ambiguous, is still mostly hereditary as physical racial differences are observable.

Gender, as an expression of femininity and masculinity and the roles between them, is mostly based around a social construction. For example, earlier in the 1900's blue was for girls, pink was for boys or how Ashley was a boys name. It's a system of rules and expression of femininity and masculinity that change over time.

You're not wrong -- this is on point -- though I would caution against romanticizing racial relations in a place like Brazil.

I'm not romanticizing them. If you watch Black in Latin America, is still gives off a very interesting and different take on blackness than what is defined in America. As an American Black, I find it interesting and refreshing in that they have multiple ways to describe different colors. However, the treatment of black people over there is very much real. I am fully aware of the hardships of blacks in latin America.

[Himu]

"No one can tell you what race you are. They might have an opinion, but the reality is there is no scientific way to define it. "

You are right, but this doesn't matter when someone starts to run when and constantly look back at me like I'm going to mug them in the middle of the day while going on a walk in my own neighborhood. Or being being stopped by a cop in my shitty beat up car and yet he still asks me,"is this your car?"

What you're saying sounds nice, but it is not my life experience, especially since my first memory is crying under a table because the kids at daycare were bullying me because I was black.

I may have White and Native American genes in me. My hair may bethe result of mixed race and people will call it "good hair". But none of it really matters in the end.

Still, it's a nice sentiment, but does not speak to my reality. So I'd say you're half right, depending on who you ask.

[chronovore]

I did find all the weird Japanese prejudice against Koreans and Chinese to be utterly befuddling. Many Japanese people claim that they can tell the difference between the three races at-a-glance, but I've never met anyone who actually can. It's tremendous horseshittery.

So, to me, some forms of race are nearly exclusively a social construct.

For the most part, I've noticed Japanese tend to have bigger eyes than Chinese. Could be wrong in that observation?

I don't believe that Japanese have bigger eyes. It's also the first time I've heard that observation, so I don't think Japanese people are going by eye size. I also don't believe they have any validity to their claims; it is easier to tell a Japanese-American from a Japanese-Japanese than it is to try and tell most Chinese people apart from  Japanese; American body language, posture, diet, and facial muscle structure (determined by cultural use) tends to make people of the same national background appear different, while Japanese-raised Chinese and Koreans are brought up in Japanese culture, making them less distinguishable than that.

[Himu]

I dunno. I can easily tell when someone is African and not Black American at the flip of the switch, because for the most part, Africans generally don't look completely like us. I know where they're coming from. Aren't Koreans and Chinese typically a bit darker than Japanese too?

[Cerveza mas fina]

Really Himu

[Himu]

Uh

Yeah

[Cerveza mas fina]

Bunching together Chinese under one name is a bit silly when there is so many ethinic groups and 1.5 billion people.

There are more Chinese than white people and all white people don't look alike either.

Telling apart people is much more then just looking at the face, it's the way people walk, move, dress etc. All those together make me able to recognize a Polack or a Dutchie in a crowd of other cacs.

[Himu]

China is definitely a special case and a lot more diverse. Chinese can be definitely be darker than Japanese depending on where in China they're from, but Korean eye slants are definitely usually distinct from Japanese eye slants, and they sometimes do generally have smaller eyes.

There's also mannerisms. Which while also not generally correct, you can sometimes get a general idea.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Been out of the loop all weekend. What in the name of fuckery is going on with this shit? She's literally the anti-michael jackson.

[Beezy]

https://twitter.com/Retro_Spectro_/status/610251428838420480/video/1

 

[chronovore]

I dunno. I can easily tell when someone is African and not Black American at the flip of the switch, because for the most part, Africans generally don't look completely like us. I know where they're coming from. Aren't Koreans and Chinese typically a bit darker than Japanese too?

The African vs. Black American difference seems more akin to my statement about being able to tell the difference between USA-raised Japanese people and Japanese-raised Japanese people.

Lager's statement is also important: China's huge, and has a lot of diversity among its own peoples.

None of this manages to contradict my belief that Japan's claims to be able to single-out non-Japanese Asians from Korea and China are silly. But my main point was that racism is stupid because look at all these Asians discriminating against each other. Then again, as was pointed out, racism was originally against non-British because even Germans and Scandinavians are swarthy --- WTF?

[Himu]

China is a diverse place, but for the most part, they don't look exactly like Korean or Japanese people. Then again, you've likely been to both - definitely been to Japan :p - so what do I know? I'm basing this after all the east asian people i know and who have been kind enough to tell and show me the differences after asking.

Houston has a big African population, and I can generally tell who is African without talking to them. Emphasis on generally.

[benjipwns]

Another black woman driven out of making this a better world by violent bigotry:

Dear Executive Committee and NAACP Members,

It is a true honor to serve in the racial and social justice movement here in Spokane and across the nation. Many issues face us now that drive at the theme of urgency. Police brutality, biased curriculum in schools, economic disenfranchisement, health inequities, and a lack of pro-justice political representation are among the concerns at the forefront of the current administration of the Spokane NAACP. And yet, the dialogue has unexpectedly shifted internationally to my personal identity in the context of defining race and ethnicity.

I have waited in deference while others expressed their feelings, beliefs, confusions and even conclusions - absent the full story. I am consistently committed to empowering marginalized voices and believe that many individuals have been heard in the last hours and days that would not otherwise have had a platform to weigh in on this important discussion. Additionally, I have always deferred to the state and national NAACP leadership and offer my sincere gratitude for their unwavering support of my leadership through this unexpected firestorm.

While challenging the construct of race is at the core of evolving human consciousness, we can NOT afford to lose sight of the five Game Changers (Criminal Justice & Public Safety, Health & Healthcare, Education, Economic Sustainability, and Voting Rights & Political Representation) that affect millions, often with a life or death outcome. The movement is larger than a moment in time or a single person's story, and I hope that everyone offers their robust support of the Journey for Justice campaign that the NAACP launches today!

I am delighted that so many organizations and individuals have supported and collaborated with the Spokane NAACP under my leadership to grow this branch into one of the healthiest in the nation in 5 short months. In the eye of this current storm, I can see that a separation of family and organizational outcomes is in the best interest of the NAACP.

It is with complete allegiance to the cause of racial and social justice and the NAACP that I step aside from the Presidency and pass the baton to my Vice President, Naima Quarles-Burnley. It is my hope that by securing a beautiful office for the organization in the heart of downtown, bringing the local branch into financial compliance, catalyzing committees to do strategic work in the five Game Changer issues, launching community forums, putting the membership on a fast climb, and helping many individuals find the legal, financial and practical support needed to fight race-based discrimination, I have positioned the Spokane NAACP to buttress this transition.

Please know I will never stop fighting for human rights and will do everything in my power to help and assist, whether it means stepping up or stepping down, because this is not about me. It's about justice. This is not me quitting; this is a continuum. It's about moving the cause of human rights and the Black Liberation Movement along the continuum from Resistance to Chattel Slavery to Abolition to Defiance of Jim Crow to the building of Black Wall Street to the Civil Rights and Black Power Movement to the ‪#‎BlackLivesMatter‬ movement and into a future of self-determination and empowerment.

With much love and a commitment to always fight for what is right and good in this world,
Rachel Dolezal

[Rufus]

She seems like an okay person other than the whole pretending to be a black person thing (Image removed from quote.)

Which is tragic, because the lie will overshadow everything.

[Himu]

She seems like an okay person other than the whole pretending to be a black person thing (Image removed from quote.)

Yes, telling someone they aren't black and are mocking the idea of being black while she does the same thing is totally genuine

[Human Snorenado]

I look forward to "Unforgivable Blackness: The Rachel Dolezal Story" starring Anna Faris, coming to Lifetime soon.

[bork]

I look forward to "Unforgivable Blackness: The Rachel Dolezal Story" starring Anna Faris, coming to Lifetime soon.

[Himu]

Do you want me to fill the right side in?

[Phoenix Dark]

I look forward to "Unforgivable Blackness: The Rachel Dolezal Story" starring Anna Faris, coming to Lifetime soon.

:makaveli

[bork]

Do you want me to fill the right side in?

Yeah!

[Phoenix Dark]

Rachel Dolezal Sued Howard University for Racial Discrimination in 2002

Former Spokane NAACP president Rachel Dolezal sued Howard University in 2002 for allegedly discriminating against her because she’s white, according to court documents obtained by the Smoking Gun. Dolezal, who has claimed to be black for several years, said the school refused to hire her for teaching posts and denied her scholarships because of her race.

http://gawker.com/report-rachel-dolezal-sued-howard-university-for-discr-1711464382?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

[Human Snorenado]

[Himu]

this fucking story

[Kara]

Call me , but something about this story always struck me as contrived. Now I really think it's contrived.

[Phoenix Dark]

Should have hired a Jewish lawyer, Rachel.