Author Topic: STAR CITIZEN: JEU PRÉFÉRÉ DE VOMKRIEGE  (Read 306913 times)

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Joe Molotov

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #660 on: August 12, 2016, 10:35:50 AM »
Derek Smart had to take good, wholesome Star Citizen fuckery and make it all weird. Is there anything he can't ruin?
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bluemax

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #661 on: August 15, 2016, 01:07:31 AM »
I talked to a CIG employee this week. He was surprised when I asked him if things were as bad over there as the rumors suggest (mind you he has only been there 4 months or so, but he is a 12 year industry vet).

Apparently they're going into some form of crunch mode in preparation for Gamescom.
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VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #662 on: August 15, 2016, 01:40:21 AM »
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of CIG employess were oblivious to the constant Internet warfare going around their work, to be honest. It sounds pretty likely that work days are perfectly normal, mundane affairs, far away from the cartoonish evil caricature some critics have drifted into.

EDIT :

No Man's Limb



Maybe I'm mistaken but I remember the Crysis player model to do this when viewed in 3rd person mode...
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 08:42:12 AM by VomKriege »
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Rufus

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #663 on: August 15, 2016, 09:05:56 AM »
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of CIG employess were oblivious to the constant Internet warfare going around their work, to be honest. It sounds pretty likely that work days are perfectly normal, mundane affairs, far away from the cartoonish evil caricature some critics have drifted into.

EDIT :

No Man's Limb

(Image removed from quote.)

Maybe I'm mistaken but I remember the Crysis player model to do this when viewed in 3rd person mode...

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #664 on: August 16, 2016, 01:54:06 AM »
Current version of the Alpha is being streamed at the showfloor @ Gamescom. It seems that CIG do have an official partnership with Intel now, so the rumours of the AMD one falling through had some truth to it.

They have a backer event too in the coming days, I believe.
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VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #665 on: August 17, 2016, 01:37:22 AM »


 :-\
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brob

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #666 on: August 17, 2016, 02:33:00 AM »
true steam grognards play farming simulators, not actually do real life farm work like a loser

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #667 on: August 17, 2016, 12:00:26 PM »
Well the twitch stream at Gamescom started, and the ignition is a little rough.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4y4pmz/star_citizen_at_gamescom_2016_live_stream/

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Well it's nice to see a SC stream, but a little bit more Action would be fine

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Are these guys on the stream developers? It seems they're just guessing and making vague statements, while aimlessly wandering around an empty hanger. Lots of "Wouldn't it be cool if you could do X" statements.

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Capt. Richard just said on stream that SQ42 has no release date... :-/ I hope that's not the official line but I somehow doubt it, surely the streamers were briefed before the start of gamescom.

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They are playing 2.4.1! Please show something new!

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Wow this is awful. They need to update the gamescon detail page so we know when to avoid these youtuber panels. Best case scenario, we don't see them anymore after friday.

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Why do they get people with no idea about the game to make the streaming?

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Well ... that was painful. I've watched all the guest streamers before, and I can only say please CIG ... let them do what you sent them to do. The community manager kept going on, and on, and on and ON about all kinds of rubbish. Sorry, I want to see the game showcased, not hear endless pitches for why I should install better twitch TV, or send Twitter things. Seriously, let the guest streamers do their thing, and it would not have been nearly so painful to watch. Indeed the only reason I did watch was the giveaways - but for those, it would have been a total waste of time.

And for reference - the screen overlay is RUBBISH. So much crap on the screen, such a small viewable area of actual gameplay - then add in engagement ranges, and enemy ships might as well be triangles for all we can't see. I know the streamers can all fly, and can all entertain - but today was just not good. Please CIG, step back and let them run the segments: I don't give a f*** about your tacky model aircraft or the wide shot of people standing in line. Let the streamers show the game, and share their favorite elements of the game with us. They know what they are doing: CIG today made it look like they did not. Live streaming a camera falling off the wall, held on by gaffer tape ... really?!


The presentation which should have the freshest stuff is on Friday.

EDIT : Also no streaming of the Star Marine FPS module confirmed. Maybe they'll show some stuff in their presentation.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 12:20:38 PM by VomKriege »
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VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #668 on: August 17, 2016, 12:43:16 PM »
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naff

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #669 on: August 17, 2016, 08:38:52 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

 :-\

Idgi.... Some boring ass niccas. Clearly more people need to experiment with real mind altering substances. If you're going to be self destructive at least do it right, don't fuck your life up for fucking SC jesus christ.

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bluemax

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #670 on: August 18, 2016, 01:08:09 AM »
Speaking of SC and streaming, if this game is the living Jesus why is there like sub 1000 viewers for it on Twitch most of the time? I get that most games don't get a lot of viewers, but for all the Reddit hype you'd think there'd be more viewers.
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VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #671 on: August 18, 2016, 01:26:13 AM »
I'd say most people are aware the current alpha is barebones. Engagement overall is much shallower than you'd expect given their funding and seems to be mostly the work of a very dedicated core of backers. Outside of the official forums and reddit, SomethingAwful is probably the only "major" internet venue with vibrant activity about the game. On most gaming forums I know of, discussion is hard to come by and generally driven by a couple of fans at best.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 01:31:47 AM by VomKriege »
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benjipwns

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #672 on: August 18, 2016, 02:28:26 AM »
i have no obligations to anyone other than my animals

(well, and my creditors)

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #673 on: August 18, 2016, 12:00:23 PM »


 :doge
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Tasty

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #674 on: August 18, 2016, 02:13:32 PM »
Did he just fall through the floor?

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #675 on: August 18, 2016, 04:43:59 PM »
Most common bug in the game, yeah. They also insisted on having the Gamescom streamers playing on the normal servers (instead of a local set up) and apparently the other players follow them around in game, purposefully bump into the streamer character. Honestly it's not a great showing for them, supposedly those streams are to entice new players...

They do have a trailer for the 2.5 version of the Alpha though. Can be seen on Youtube in poor phone cam quality, but will surely be broadcasted this Friday.
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wsippel

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #676 on: August 20, 2016, 12:11:41 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

Welp, I'd call that a pretty big reveal:



Scam confirmed and all that. It definitely took balls to do a demo like that live, and it actually payed off. I hear DS wasn't amused.

And here's the 2.5 trailer:


VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #677 on: August 20, 2016, 06:16:04 PM »
Haven't watched the demo, but a candid question nonetheless : if the stuff is ready enough to be demoed, why is it the supposed 3.0 and not the next update to hit ?
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wsippel

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #678 on: August 20, 2016, 08:32:11 PM »
Haven't watched the demo, but a candid question nonetheless : if the stuff is ready enough to be demoed, why is it the supposed 3.0 and not the next update to hit ?

Because it isn't ready for prime time yet. There are still known glitches and important features are still work in progress (netcode, AI).

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #679 on: August 25, 2016, 10:01:53 AM »
Haven't watched the demo, but a candid question nonetheless : if the stuff is ready enough to be demoed, why is it the supposed 3.0 and not the next update to hit ?

Because it isn't ready for prime time yet. There are still known glitches and important features are still work in progress (netcode, AI).

I really have a hard time following the logic here, to be honest. If it is a vertical slice or a playable prototype depending on some major rewrites being correctly implemented before turning into a reality for the players... it honestly doesn't guarantee it will be delivered in due time. CIG track record with schedules, including their latests 2.X alphas, is not exactly stellar.

Anyway, it seems pretty obvious that they should have something related to SQ42 for CitizenCon.
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wsippel

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #680 on: August 25, 2016, 03:01:09 PM »
I really have a hard time following the logic here, to be honest. If it is a vertical slice or a playable prototype depending on some major rewrites being correctly implemented before turning into a reality for the players... it honestly doesn't guarantee it will be delivered in due time. CIG track record with schedules, including their latests 2.X alphas, is not exactly stellar.

Anyway, it seems pretty obvious that they should have something related to SQ42 for CitizenCon.

There is no guarantee, and CIG didn't set a fixed date. 3.0 is supposed to be the big end of the year patch, just like 2.0 was - which was buggy as hell but got actually released in late December. And it seemed to me that they were not even entirely sure what content would be ready for 3.0.

Either way, you can't just release a vertical slice. If there's a door in the demo and there's nothing behind it yet, that doesn't matter. The folks demoing the game know not to open the door. If visiting a certain place or spawning a certain asset causes the server to crash, that's also fine. They simply won't do it. If they wanted to release the demo to the public, they'd have to test everything and fix all those issues, just for a throw-away intermediate release.

And yes, they'll talk about SQ42 at CitizenCon. Chris said as much during his presentation.

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #681 on: August 27, 2016, 01:42:57 AM »
Tall promises by Croberts once more...



Quote
In my opinion, like, we're gonna try to get the Stanton system for everyone at the end of the year with the big release at the end of the year, and you know, that's got four major planets and a bunch of moons and secondary areas like asteroid fields and stuff, like forty space stations and a huge amount of area, and that, I think, is, you know, plenty of, hundreds of hours of gameplay going between just because the amount of detail and, you know, the things that you can do vs. otherwise, [in games like NMS] you just go to star system after star system and just, it's kind of the same thing again and again.

Also VR implementation will be easy (I always heard quite the contrary ?), player orgs will be able to build bases and to colonize planets (!?) because procedural generation ?

Meanwhile CIG still haven't managed to reduce the size of its alpha updates to patch form...

http://i.imgur.com/3JRxi3z.mp4
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wsippel

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #682 on: August 27, 2016, 10:57:40 PM »
Also VR implementation will be easy (I always heard quite the contrary ?), player orgs will be able to build bases and to colonize planets (!?) because procedural generation ?

Meanwhile CIG still haven't managed to reduce the size of its alpha updates to patch form...

http://i.imgur.com/3JRxi3z.mp4

Dunno about VR, but yeah, procedural generation makes base building possible. Because there's now lots of empty space for people to claim and build shit on. Don't think we'll actually see that anytime soon though.

The patch issue is well known and reportedly being worked on. The game still uses the Cryengine standard virtual filesystem, so everything is stored in compressed and signed 2GB archives. Change a single bit in one of the archives, and the whole archive has to be replaced outright. It can be fixed, XLGames for example managed to do it for Archeage, but it's not trivial, and it didn't really have a very high priority. Patches were few and far between, so bigger downloads were seen as acceptable for the time being. It only really became an issue when the PTU was introduced, which gets much more frequent updates.

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #683 on: August 28, 2016, 01:05:24 AM »
Having the space to build a base is the least important issue, though, hence my confusion. This implies a tons of new mechanics (How do you build one ? What does it do ?). It sounds completely extraneous at this point in time when so many of the core functions of the game are still not out of the gate and as far as we know are still in very early stages at best even on CIG's computers, like the "economy" which is undoubtedly an underlying prerequisite for any base building mechanic.

Didn't the latest patches releases had a dozen iterations each, one every few days, in semi closed testing before being released to the largest backer public ? It's been like that for at least a year now and CIG was already "looking into it" then. Hard to understand why it is not a priority when it is a very tangible draw on their resources and an obvious efficiency gain to make.
:yeshrug
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wsippel

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #684 on: August 28, 2016, 10:08:13 AM »
I believe you're overcomplicating things. Thinking about it some more, the only new mechanic they'd really need would be beacons and maybe some defensive systems (which would also be really useful for mining). No need for complex mechanics and custom buildings. Just load that crap into a ship, fly to a moon, put a portable shield generator, a turret and a beacon down, and bam: you have a base. Would mostly be useful as a storage area and exchange. Remember, organizations like TEST don't care if you're a pirate or a law abiding citizen, but that means members can't really meet to exchange goods and services on many regular landing spots. And since everything in the game is an item, building a refueling station theoretically only requires you to fly somewhere with a Starfarer and put a few fuel tanks down. If you want a "building", just park a Caterpillar under the shield.

And yes, that's what I wrote. PTU, the closed alpha, gets tons of patches, regular backers only get updates once a month or so. So right now, a new file system would mostly benefit a tiny fraction of the 1.5 million backers. And it's only really more efficient for the testers. For CIG, switching to a different file structure requires actual work, whereas the current system only costs them a little more bandwidth.

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #685 on: August 28, 2016, 01:08:49 PM »
It would mostly benefit CIG themselves. Beyond that, even a monthly full redownload is a pretty inconvenient experience to impose on users. And while the semi-closed testers are only a tiny minority, it would allow them to spend more time playing and testing ?

As for bases, I don't think I qualified mechanics as complex or even mentioned buildings (though, yeah I wondered what form they are supposed to have), but even the simple stuff has some implications, as evidenced by your own speculations. Is a refueling mechanic present in the current alpha ?

Anyhow, that's more of an aside. Roberts has an habit of going pretty wild (he said at some point that all radio transmissions going through beacons could be simulated in game). The more interesting stuff is that he promised to deliver by the end of the year four planets and several dozens space stations. That's a tangible, quantifiable statement. I'll admit I'll be impressed if it turns true.

EDIT : Stolen on SomethingAwful, a master class with Garriott & Spector on Chris Roberts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuA-zV6B4vQ#t=7861s
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 01:14:55 PM by VomKriege »
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wsippel

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #686 on: August 28, 2016, 05:09:16 PM »
Well, it's in alpha, so convenience isn't really something to be expected either way. If CIG needs more testers because some don't feel like downloading 10GB patches, they'd probably just send out more invites. It's not really a pressing issue, and there's no reason to waste time and ressources on some half-assed intermediate solution. They're working on it, but they want something that lasts.

Anyway.... Yes, refueling and rearming is in the current alpha, and has been for while. Land on a service station, pay a fee, and drones will pop up and refuel, rearm and repair your ship. The base mechanics are already in place. Thing is: A lot of the ideas you're quoting probably don't come from Roberts at all. The director of the persistant universe is Tony Zurovec, the guy who designed the background simulation and AI for Ultima VII and VIII. He believes in a completely physicalized approach to pretty much everything. Which is actually a brilliant idea, because it requires more thought up front, but less work in the long run. Kinda like EVE. The example you mentioned is actually pretty good. You have to develop a communication and messaging system anyway, but if you base it on actual things in the game, implementing features like hacking or electronic warfare suddenly becomes much easier and more logical. Want to disrupt communications? Just blow up a satellite. That's what Star Citizen is really all about. Instead of designing tons of high level mechanics, they try to come up with very robust low level mechanics that facilitate emergent gameplay. We already see that today. There is no "cargo system" at this point, but since everything in the game is a physical thing, you can shove any physical item in the game world into your cargo hold. If it fits, it's yours. If it doesn't, you can call a friend with a bigger ship.

Also, did you actually watch the video? Warren and Richard said Chris is hard to work with, but they ultimately praised him.

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #687 on: August 29, 2016, 03:06:31 AM »
They're all on good speaking terms as far as I know (there's a video of Roberts and Garriott talking recently about the void of space or somesuch I also saw). The key point for me is that they describe Roberts as a bit of a control freak when developing, which aligns with the little we know of his current process. To each his own opinion about how it affects SC making.

The whole "physicality" thing (which includes simulating every piece of cargo in ships individually, etc...) sounds to me like one of those high concepts that is great on paper but not conductive to good gameplay (for this type of game, at least) and impossible to be integrated in a "graphics intensive MMO" at this point in time : It would be very impressive to have ten thousand space dildos in the bay all with their own physics, but if I wanted the thrill of 2 solid hours as a cosmonaut forklift operator on every trade run I'd probably would apply for that job in real life. Plus I'm no dev but it's hard to imagine that not sucking a ton of computer resources needed elsewhere.

We exchanged words about CIG's funding model but the other major facet of my skepticism is that I don't think -within my modest knowledge of game making- that the whole Star Citizen pitch cannot be made even if the team in charge had more funding and was throughfully competent. Elite will maybe do a quarter of that after a decade of iteration ?

Bonus link :

Star Citizen Got Me Blacklisted From Our Office Internet
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bluemax

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #688 on: August 30, 2016, 12:25:51 AM »
If you just replaced some names and dates in this article it's like you're reading about Star Citizen from the future:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-08-29-what-happened-to-gamings-waterworld
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wsippel

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #689 on: September 01, 2016, 09:49:01 PM »
In the latest AtV, CIG casually showed a makeshift base built around a crashed ship:




They also demonstrated the first iteration of cargo handling and gave a more in-depth look into ground vehicles, all in video form. As I wrote a while ago, even though they show a lot, there's definitely a lot more in the works we haven't seen yet.

Trent Dole

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #690 on: September 02, 2016, 03:54:53 AM »
How the fuck did we get a sperglord SC backer here :lol
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VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #691 on: September 03, 2016, 02:43:09 AM »
So yeah, they spoke of the cargo system. It was all illustrated by a guy picking up a crate and some footage of containers in cargo holds. Also shocker but the future cargo implementation discussed is that it will appear automatically in your hold when you buy it and not that you'll load it manually (as implied in the design document here Players will load their containers (or acquire them pre-loaded) and then position them aboard or attached to their spacecraft.), although it is claimed that pirates and salvagers will still have to loot crates manually... Which still sounds bonkers. I would expect that to be simplified / game-ified pretty soon too. There's a reason most games abstract this stuff. Even having each pallet and crate "simulated" as separate object in the cargo hold sounds taxing and very optimistic.

To be fair however, CIG already muddied the water quite a bit a while back on all that :

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/6974593/#Comment_6974593

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Grabby Hands means that you can load every part of the ship if you so desire… but in all likelihood, you won’t ever want to do that on something as large as a Hull E. Loading can be done automatically via your mobiGlas under normal circumstances (and then the cargo itself can be organized through the console interface.)

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When you land on planets, a lot of the unloading of cargo is done via a cargo manifest and handled by the local commodities broker, so you won't have to do a lot of manual unloading/loading of cargo. There will be some kind of special style cargo, like contraband or smuggled goods, where you might have to find a buyer for that particular item rather than just going through a vanilla commodities broker. Most of the time it'll be handled in the background, and you'll negotiate prices/amounts using your manifest with the local commodities broker, they'll buy it then offload it from your ship. But there will be some places where you land where there might not be big infrastructure, so you might have to load some cargo into, say, your rover and take that to a camp a few kilometres away, or maybe deliver some cargo to a lone explorer out there somewhere. Most of the big trading stuff will be done in a higher level way, which is kind of how it'd be done in real life, we thought that always unloading it manually could get pretty boring.

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I will say, though, that players can put down cargo wherever they choose, allowing salvage to be dropped in the rear if they can find the space for it, but that loose cargo and salvage will not be as safe and those inside dedicated cargo holds on other ships. Transporting loose cargo is done at a pilot’s own risk and is not recommended.

So yeah : it's automated. Except when it isn't. :yeshrug Sounds like a mess of a design.

Transcript :
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
Will Maiden (WM): OK, so for 3.0 we’re going to have the ability to pick up the box, take it to your ship, put it in your ship and take that ship to market – which will allow us to sell whatever you find. Now it’s going to either come from salvage, ships you find out in the debris field; stuff you take off other people’s ships that you pirate; stuff you are going to get given on missions. You can also go to market – pick up whatever you want to buy, whatever they’re selling, that’ll automatically get put in your ship and you can take that out to sell that as well. We’re hoping to get all sorts of trade routes – buy stuff from here, sell it to there, take stuff from there, go somewhere else – traders will go to port and they will just buy from a computer two-hundred to three-hundred units of steel or whatever and that will automatically be generated on your ship. So they have a really time of just buying what they want, getting back into space and trading whereas salvage players, pirates – they can physically walk up to a box, pick it up, manually take it over to their ship, or take it to a market and sell it. So they have a much more lengthy gameplay but it should be fun for them to be able to see what they are taking and individually picking what they want.

We’ve obviously already got cargo boxes built, we’ve got ships where the interiors are already set up – so we can start placing: here is where cargo will fit, here is where we can store it. Those will probably come along side-by-side and then we should be good to go. We’ll be able to see very quickly once it’s down inside your ship, it gets locked to that ship. Then all we need is on the other side, markets being set up – we’ve already got a few at Port Olisar, GrimHex and we’ll be seeing some at Levski – places where you can take those items. Instead of talking to someone and buying a gun you’ll be able to say “Hey I’ve got ten tonnes of cargo in the back if you want to buy that”. So with having trade routes that gives us then the opportunity of pirates, finding out about those trade routes. Coming and camping on them, waiting for transports to come in. Grab them, steal their cargo. So then we’re going to have, hopefully, players wanting to protect their cargo. They start hiring mercenaries to come and protect them, and then bounty hunters to hunt down the pirates that stole off them in the first place. So hopefully from having that initial cargo route from one or another, we should be seeing a lot more careers being built around that.
[close]

http://imperialnews.network/2016/09/around-the-verse-episode-3-05/

EDIT :

Also some revealing discussion in that cargo thread on RSI official...

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/6974920/#Comment_6974920

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So you should be rewarded with twice the income for being lazy, and uncooperative by cutting your round trip time in half?

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I agree, but can't this be *optional* to the individual player. i.e. if the player wants to carry boxes then let them fill their boots. If 100% immersion is what they want the that is fine. They've gained nothing additional other than their satisfaction for doing it. Having it magically appear for us people who only have an hour in the evenings between family life for gaming, should also be catered for with no penalties.

Quote
CIG has already addressed this. The purchase of UEC with real money is the time equalizer for those who don't have a lot of gaming time. Not game mechanics. If you don't have the time to wait, then pay to have it loaded quickly. If you don't have the UEC, go to the cash store and buy more so you do.

Don't you if it's true but no one objected to that after the message... Isn't that a textbook recipe for pay 2 win ?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 03:00:47 AM by VomKriege »
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Great Rumbler

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #692 on: September 03, 2016, 11:49:12 AM »
That's the exact definition of pay-2-win. :lol
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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #693 on: September 03, 2016, 11:54:40 AM »
So yeah : it's automated. Except when it isn't. :yeshrug Sounds like a mess of a design.

Standard cargo containers are essentially small drones with their own propulsion systems. Only legitimate owners are authorized to send commands to containers, so pirates and salvagers would have to load and unload them manually.

Quote
Don't you if it's true but no one objected to that after the message... Isn't that a textbook recipe for pay 2 win ?

Does PLEX make Eve pay to win? But yeah, that's also one of my main concerns, especially since PLEX doesn't really impact the in-game economy (if anything, it doubles as a money sink), whereas CIG's approach could cause massive inflation as it actually generates money out of nothing.

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #694 on: September 03, 2016, 06:57:42 PM »
Shocking news : Single player game Squadron 42 will probably not be released in 2016 according to a german journalist that interviewed Chris Roberts. Which wouldn't come as a surprise, if the game was to be released in 3 months you'd expect real previews of the single player to be a thing now. To be confirmed at CitizenCon along, hopefully for backers, with a video demonstrating actual progress on that portion.

Chris stated in an interview that all content for Squadron42 (graphics, missions) will be complete by the end of the year. There is still more work to do concerning some basic systems like the AI or the coversystem for infiltration missions. Those will take more time.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/50z7op/michael_graf_gamestar_chief_editor_info_about/

Quote
Anyone approaching this conversation as if CR just gave out a release date is an asshole

:umad

I swear semantics debate about the word "estimate" must make up 5% of all the comments on that reddit  :lol
Fans are now speculating they'll get a Prologue of the first chapter (out of three, IIRC) before the end of the year.

OPEN DEVELOPMENT !
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 10:24:29 PM by VomKriege »
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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #695 on: September 03, 2016, 10:03:54 PM »
This game is never gonna come out.

Wait, let me rephrase. It'll come out as 0.04564 (alpha) public release in a few years, bomb, and then limp along until a decade from now it'll have roughly 80% of the features it was promised for day one. Then the servers will shut down and there will be a semi-large fan effort to reverse engineer some private servers and vanish from public eye into the ether.

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #696 on: September 03, 2016, 10:37:58 PM »
CIG admitted as much (without the part of not completing it, obviously) since the official line is that they'll first release a "minimum viable product" they'll iterate on. However they can't exactly claim any old crock is the gold version of that "minimum viable product" : they have to deliver the backer rewards along with the completed game, at the very least the Kickstarter ones, which includes a certain number of functional ships and their assorted items.

They also have the single player game to deliver and for that there's much less pussyfooting about what constitutes a finished product. It's supposedly much less complex and open and I think most backers, even the optimistic ones, expect something tangible by Q2 2017 at the latest.
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wsippel

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #697 on: September 04, 2016, 12:37:36 AM »
They also have the single player game to deliver and for that there's much less pussyfooting about what constitutes a finished product. It's supposedly much less complex and open and I think most backers, even the optimistic ones, expect something tangible by Q2 2017 at the latest.

In all honesty, the moment they announced 3.0 as the big end of the year release, it was pretty damn clear that SQ42 wouldn't make it in 2016.

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #698 on: September 04, 2016, 03:36:32 AM »
In other news, CIG claims to have received over 4m in funding for August, the highest since November 2015 and a nice rebound from one of their slowest points. This year has seemed to be trending down but so far they're mostly on pace with 2013, 2014 & 2015 (roughly taking in 30m a year). YoY will be down probably unless they make big money out of CitCon, but it hasn't fallen off a cliff. They still know how to reel in their backers...

I guess we'll see next year just how many new ships they can come up with !
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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #699 on: September 04, 2016, 04:55:32 PM »
Speaking to German magazine GameStar, Chris Roberts has said that the single-player component of Star Citizen, Squadron 42, will be more likely to arrive near the middle or end of 2017 than its current Q42016 window

http://www.pcgamesn.com/star-citizen/squadron-42-release-date

Q8 2016, right on time.

Edit : It's unclear where they source the "middle or end". Article seems to be based of the same report as upthread. Knowing CIG they'll just put "2017" at the end of next trailer if it's delayed.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 05:48:53 AM by VomKriege »
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VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #700 on: September 05, 2016, 07:24:25 AM »
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4460940&viewfull=1#post4460940

30 new positions opened at CIG, including 21 engineers. Unclear if it's turn over and/or increasing the workforce.

The Gamestar interview has some more meat beyong the whole possible delay thing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/51buxa/exclusive_gamestar_interview_with_cr_sq42/

C.Roberts :
Quote
But, no, the Hull is actually one of the ships that as soon as the SQ42 ships are done, witch I think is gonna be September, October maybe November time

Quote
Consider us on SQ42 we will behave like Naughty Dog, which is like, it has to be right, it has to be polished. So i don't want to make any prediction on that, but the content will be done by the end of this year, and then it's a matter of the polish time. So.. (...) I can't tell you  how long it's going to take to polish and make it all work and make it all super smooth."

It's a rough translation but you get the gist of it.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 07:36:39 PM by VomKriege »
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I'm a Puppy!

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #701 on: September 05, 2016, 11:09:10 PM »
Man, this is like a  slow motion train wreck. It's going to be magnificent :delicious
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VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #702 on: September 06, 2016, 04:24:41 AM »
Haven't seen any backer on reddit or official site catch that pretty massive Naughty Dogs hint...
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VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #703 on: September 07, 2016, 04:42:34 AM »
http://www.pcgamer.com/roberts-space-industries-denies-squadron-42-delay-report/

“It appears something may have been lost in the translation,” a rep said. “Chris spoke to multiple reporters at Gamescom who asked about the status of Squadron 42. We have been feature locked for a while and things are coming along nicely. In every case he told them that we are hard at work on the game and are focused on making it great but no official launch dates were discussed.”

Unfortunately, the rep declined to discuss an official launch date with me, too, saying only that one hasn't been set yet. He did say, however, that there will be a progress report and “visual update” at CitizenCon, which is set for October 9. We'll be there to report back.


:neogaf

Also CIG may be involved in a court case with several other companies ? Many defendants along with them. Something to do with property or construction.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrtWI7vWgAATScP.jpg

They did move into a new building last year  for their LA offices (?)
Might not amount to much.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 05:02:34 AM by VomKriege »
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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #704 on: September 08, 2016, 08:29:00 AM »
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/259596-The-Star-Citizen-Thread-v5?p=4473477&viewfull=1#post4473477

Quote
And its true. 90% of the bickering in every discussion about Star Citizen,not only in this thread, is based on ignorance about how game development is indeed a troubled non-linear mess of fluid as in adapt as you go decisions. (Ooking from the outside it looks chaotic and unprofessional but its just how things are done in this type of business.


Credit : Neo-ST on Frontier forums
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a slime appears

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #705 on: September 08, 2016, 08:58:53 AM »
I really don't follow Star Citizen but ever week Derek Smart spams about the horrible war atrocities Chris Roberts commits by making this game. It's kind of funny, lol.

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #706 on: September 09, 2016, 02:31:01 AM »
I really don't follow Star Citizen but ever week Derek Smart spams about the horrible war atrocities Chris Roberts commits by making this game. It's kind of funny, lol.

Smart carved himself a pretty good niche to internet fame with this, yeah. Several people thanked him for being able to get a refund from CIG however, so there's at least that to his credit...

Meanwhile one of the oldest concern thread on RSI official is still going...

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/215058/the-big-voyager-direct-store-melting-concern-one-year-and-3-4-edition

People used real money in an item store that has been setup all the way back in 2013/2014, but several of those items have been rendered unusable for their users with all the "refactoring" : they do not fit on ships anymore, or come by default with it. They're asking for the possibility to exchange them since 2015 and have been told several times the option was coming... before another round of radio silence.

The store is still up
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/voyager-direct

And if you want to get an idea of the $ prices...
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/extras?product_id=41

Only 31,20$ to buy this cannon and its mount to use in the single player Arena Commander alpha module  :money
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/voyager-direct/Behring-Bc/C-788-Combine-Ballistic-Cannon
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 02:36:19 AM by VomKriege »
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VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #707 on: September 10, 2016, 03:09:51 AM »
The latest monthly report...
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15506-Monthly-Studio-Report

Quote
Gamescom allowed us to introduce you to Miles Eckhart, who represents our first crack at a PU mission giver. We captured the actor during the July shoot and it was incredible to see the subtlety of the performance translate into the game.

I'll admit I'm reading that with a bias, but they shot that guy in July for a demo the following August ? :larry
Shouldn't most of the performances have been captured months ago ?

Quote
In addition, our FPS team has been refining and implementing new game modes for Star Marine. Since it will be a focused FPS experience with its own specific maps, we’ve tidied up a lot of the code and repurposed much of the CrySDK.

Quote
We’ve also started developing the damage and destruction pipeline for the ship items. Ultimately we want to create a system so when you pop open the ship panels and see your items, we can visually represent damage so you know what’s gone wrong and what needs to be fixed.

Also a little more about that lawsuit regarding CIG new offices in LA
http://gameranx.com/updates/id/73286/article/the-building-controversy-of-star-citizen/

Quote
Cloud Imperium Games is named in a suit as the defendants. D & M Contractors are the Plantiffs. The other parties involved are Vanilla Shell Inc. which is run by Ira Siegal. According to a person familiar with the project, Siegal is the real estate agent for Chris Roberts.

(...)

I called the Plantiff’s Lawyer’s Office and I was able to learn the basics of the unfolding ordeal from his assistant. They explained to me that D&M Contractors were looking to get paid for work they did at Cloud Imperium Games, and for whatever undisclosed reason that didn’t happen.

I don't think Space Door Gate merits this level of attention (though along with the furniture, it does look a bit excessive in price), but the overall issue with the contractor may be salient.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 04:38:37 AM by VomKriege »
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VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #708 on: September 15, 2016, 08:56:16 PM »
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/52yzyh/rsi_just_closed_my_entire_account_and_refunded_my/

Backer ask for refunds on purchases made less than 14 days ago, CIG just nukes the whole 2 year+ account.  :doge
Redditors blame goons and Derek Smart for terrible treatment of loyal customer.

EDIT : CIG has come out to admit they fucked up and will try to sort the guy out. Good on them. Doesn't do any favors to the redditors...
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/52yzyh/rsi_just_closed_my_entire_account_and_refunded_my/d7onyxy
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 02:40:50 AM by VomKriege »
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VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #709 on: September 20, 2016, 04:25:11 AM »
CIG has put online a "sneak peek" of the FPS without headbob

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/15511-Sneak-Peek

Looks functional at its core, the contrary would have been worrying since CryEngine is a FPS engine... Not a lot of real gameplay though, for some reason much of the time is spent shooting objects and NPCs...
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VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #710 on: September 21, 2016, 04:32:02 AM »
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/53qp8i/upcoming_avocado_26_testing_information/

Alleged leak from the alpha development

Quote
Will "Soulcrusher" Leverett: Hi guys!

I know everyone's super excited for 2.6.0 but I wanted to set appropriate expectations. I don't like to speculate (as you know) but we're looking at several weeks of work that have to be done which likely puts us into October before we're ready for Evocati testing.

Please be respectful of your NDA status and keep this information to yourselves. No need to stir people up unnecessarily.

As soon as we have more information on it, you'll be the first to know!

-WL

Patch 2.6 isn't likely to be released to the wider audience soon... Which means Alpha 3.0 won't keep its "by the end of the year" release as said by Chris Roberts @ Gamescom.

Quote
Can Confirm. There was an online game I played about a decade ago (Ultima Online), and when you submitted a help ticket in game, a Counselor would pop over within seconds to assist you, or elevate your ticket to a GM who actually worked for Origin Systems.

Counselors were unpaid volunteers. The devs would sometimes send them thank you gifts, or do other stuff to show appreciation for the work they do helping solve thousands of problems a day that didn't actually need GM attention. That all changed when the company decided not to send out Christmas gifts one year (or something like this), and a few counselors got pissed and tried to sue the company for not compensating them for their time.

Well, that pretty much ended the Counselors in the game forever. Help tickets would often take 30+ minutes of waiting for a GM to answer silly questions from newbies, and if you got disconnected it didn't hold your place.

So whoever those counselors were... Thanks Jackass

Those fuckers expecting some consideration for unpaid labor !
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 04:41:40 AM by VomKriege »
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a slime appears

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #711 on: September 21, 2016, 08:30:38 AM »
Quote
Can Confirm. There was an online game I played about a decade ago (Ultima Online), and when you submitted a help ticket in game, a Counselor would pop over within seconds to assist you, or elevate your ticket to a GM who actually worked for Origin Systems.

Counselors were unpaid volunteers. The devs would sometimes send them thank you gifts, or do other stuff to show appreciation for the work they do helping solve thousands of problems a day that didn't actually need GM attention. That all changed when the company decided not to send out Christmas gifts one year (or something like this), and a few counselors got pissed and tried to sue the company for not compensating them for their time.

Well, that pretty much ended the Counselors in the game forever. Help tickets would often take 30+ minutes of waiting for a GM to answer silly questions from newbies, and if you got disconnected it didn't hold your place.

So whoever those counselors were... Thanks Jackass

Those fuckers expecting some consideration for unpaid labor !

Whoever wrote that is a fucking douchebag. The counselors were distinguished mentally-challenged fellows for doing work for free sure, but the blame is completely on Origin.

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #712 on: September 23, 2016, 02:34:22 AM »
Rumors from SomethingAwful... TheAgent is apparently a member of the VG industry and has reported some gossips from devs get together and the like...

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3748466&pagenumber=5618#post464548930

hello

    - no 3.0 this year (duh), release date is now "after [a significant portion of] SQ42 is released"
    - ship sales will continue
    - there's yet another new studio involved (most likely contractors/outside dev pool) for planet artwork/maps
    - "The Squadron 42 [Prelude] has to hit its [Q1 2017] goal. No more excuses." unsure who, just listed as "top exec"
    - a lot of mocap issues with translating them directly into the game, mostly due to character and players size (?? not sure what this means)
    - "Expect a lot of cutscenes."
    - mocapped characters are fine stationary (sitting, standing, etc) but currently anything involving complex animation makes the models    freak out, mostly clipping and clothes problems (still)
    - certain characters have several (reported up to six!) different models, as certain scenes had to use entirely different models for the same character due to model size, lod and poor mocap translation
    - specific reshoots using stand ins for A list actors are ongoing, mostly animation, actions and poses (still occurring as of q3 2016)
    - FPS AI still murders everything through walls, doors, whatever
    - certain departments continue to pump out work at an incredible rate while others snail behind, causing back up and necessary "refactoring" when certain elements do not work or had scope change
    - heads of department told to "turtle" and avoid outside influences (?? wtf)
    - they can't get the intricate damage model to work in SP/MP at all yet, ships continue to randomly jumble themselves to death


citcon

    - crunch time continues for all studios, many people are working seven days a week for the citcon showing
    - companion app with $ to ingame currency purchases, chat, etc (design phase only, citcon slide)
    - new A list cutscene, wrapped shooting july 2016 (majority of overtime is spent working on this)
    - touting multiple SQ42 endings on one citcon slide, also says it directly affects SC world/player character
    - FPS purchasable classes still a thing and one of the major things they are revealing
    - SQ42 prelude still listed as march 2017
    - ^ "no way we'll hit that deadline" ^
    - Roberts: 2.6 should be playable at Citcon
    - nothing playable at this time, live streams still using 2.5
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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #713 on: September 23, 2016, 03:43:36 AM »
" no 3.0 this year (duh), release date is now "after [a significant portion of] SQ42 is released""

So never?
NO

VomKriege

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #714 on: September 23, 2016, 05:59:40 AM »


Holy projection Batman !

Also some earlier rumors from TheAgent on SA

  • people are now working up to 20 hours a day trying to get 2.5 gamescom ready (internally called the "chriscom" build)
  • 2.4.1 might be used because of the large amount of showstopping bugs in 2.5
  • there's no secret working 2.6 or 2.7 build that will be magically unveiled at gamescom
  • all the PG or other cool stuff they've shown off is very, very early WIP and unusable in engine (POC)
  • 3.0 is now 100% officially a thing -- might be called "SC Beta 1.0" now (gamescom/citizencon reveal)
  • there's been some problem getting everyone to gamescom (not sure if just delta problems or otherwise)
  • more mocap reshoots for both new SC and SQ42 content slated for october this year
  • SQ42 prelude is now 100% confirmed: basically SQ42: Title: Prelude/Skirmish (early marketing mock ups)
  • massive problem with new art/models that are "unacceptable" according to Chris (no elaboration)
  • seamless transitions from landing zones to space are now just loading screens (sq42)
  • first missions for sq42 limited to ship-to-ship combat only (additional FPS after prelude, exploration still in as of now)

Bolded one might have been confirmed today :

Quote
Preparations for performance capture shoot for 3.0 are well underway and will begin shortly after CitizenCon finishes with Chris flying out a few days after CitizenCon.

http://imperialnews.network/2016/09/around-the-verse-episode-3-08/

STILL more shooting ?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 06:09:32 AM by VomKriege »
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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #715 on: September 23, 2016, 01:03:12 PM »
So Kotaku has a huge series on Star Citizen starting today... They manage to get a lot of sources and CIG to comment in an extensive manner. Maybe a change of strategy from CIG, they probably aknowledge they can't just say everything has been going fine at all times. Though as usual it's hilarious that backers of the "most open development ever" had to wait for Roberts to speak to press to learn some of that info. Anyway, I guess the optimistic view is that Roberts bros realized they were going straight into a wall last year and tried to adress their structural problems ? Gotta wonder how much it cost them up until 2015 though...

http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/09/23/inside-the-troubled-development-of-star-citizen

I always wondered how much they ship work to suppliers, but I did not expect the AI to have been done by a third party (considering they're still trying to implement some AI, I guess it didn't turn out any better than the Illfonic FPS part...). Article does confirm that Illfonic worked nearly two years on that FPS module, that CIG admit they didn't spot the asset compability problem, and that much of that work ended up not being used. We also get confirmation that the team was understaffed for certain until a year (18 months ?) ago.

Pretty much all the common suspicions are being confirmed in some way here : Poor management, ideas being announced without consulting the devs, Roberts not willing to hear that whatever he wants today isn't the best method, online still being rewritten as of now, huge engineering debt, the international network of studios creating problems on its own... Also the overall plan sounds pretty loose, as Roberts will make demands on what he latest played...

Also it seems pretty clear there's some nasty interstudios rivalries, UK studio does think pretty highly of itself and get its employees borrowed by other. Austin was indeed, despite CIG lingo, gutted a bit in the re-organization. The work culture was toxic according to many ex-employees.

Roberts on lay-offs :
Quote
“I'm actually bad at that,” he claims. “I'm a big softie and always giving people extra chances, but I'm trying to be tougher on our organisation because every time we're in a situation I think we can turn around, but the person doesn't turn it around, they get a little more bitter and pissed off, and then the exit is more noisy.”

"I give way too many chances to those fuckups !". Classy.

Quote
Another source flat-out believed that Star Citizen could not be made. “Not what they've promised, absolutely not. If it happened then I would believe in God.”

Props to Kotaku UK.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 01:46:13 PM by VomKriege »
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Joe Molotov

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #716 on: September 23, 2016, 02:09:54 PM »
$124 Million United States Dollars

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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #717 on: September 23, 2016, 05:10:11 PM »

Is there like a video history of all this?
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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #718 on: September 23, 2016, 05:16:37 PM »


Probably Seth Nash, a CIG employee from December 2014 to March 2015, now working at Infinity Ward.

EDIT : Some are taking the article hard...

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/347307/you-guys-really-should-read-at-the-source-read-kotakus-original-story-here-and-forget-pc-gamer

Quote
The moment when a clown from Kotaku is calling his bs article an investigation...
The glorious day they are going to shut down that click bait website. So I can see what are all these bloggers going to do after they join the unemployment queue. I'm sure every business intelligence firm is going to be amazed by their investigation skills.

Quote
This is false as Chris would never give Kotaku an interview. He stated a couple of years ago that he would never do that. They are yellow journalists. Those quotes are suspect. At best, they were quoted from somewhere else and he'd NEVER throw another company under the bus. Those quotes about Illofinic are fabricated. Chris refused to say ANYTHING negative about them, even when we all knew what was wrong. The last people he would say them to would be Kotaku.

:neogaf

Quote
It was mostly innuendo and hearsay. No real newspaper editor would ever publish that article. No real journalist would ever submit an article that was "unnamed source said this, then another unnamed source said this."
These articles are the poster children of emberassingly shitty 'journalism'.
Of course, unnamed sources at Kotaku and PC Gamer have repeatedly told me both authors are crack-addled pathological liars with a penchant for goat-fucking. (...) Real journalism quotes exactly ZERO anonymous sources.

That shit again :lol
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 05:50:16 PM by VomKriege »
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Re: STAR CITIZEN: LES SECRETS D'UNE MACHINE À CASH
« Reply #719 on: September 23, 2016, 06:20:02 PM »
Woodward and Bernstein's Watergate reporting confirmed to be not real journalism. :fbm
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