Author Topic: US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP  (Read 5439800 times)

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OnlyRegret

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48420 on: January 01, 2020, 08:53:54 PM »
I like Yang, cool guy.
Good issues he's bringing up, automation and UBI seem like hot topics in the future. Nice to see it went from spectacle (can you believe this candidate wants to give people money for nothing?!) to other candidates agreeing Yang's highlight points are important.

Nice plus is the bernout conniptions.

OnlyRegret

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48421 on: January 01, 2020, 08:57:06 PM »
Plus, regardless of whether he gets the nomination (not this time pal), at least he's made some sort of impact on discourse unlike the other fucking dozen podium fillers. One note is better than no note.

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48422 on: January 01, 2020, 09:03:12 PM »
Then he should fucking admit that and propose more shit beyond U.B.I. because that's all he's known for.
Like most candidates of his type, rather than a page of platitudes, impossibly vague promises and regurgitated party approved failed legislative plans, Yang has a policies list a mile long on literally any topic probably a single person has ever brought up to him/the campaign: https://www.yang2020.com/policies/

Except of course whether or not we're going to need a license to make toast in our own damn toaster.

OnlyRegret

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48423 on: January 01, 2020, 09:05:21 PM »
Tom Steyer has made an impact

I had the misfortune of consuming american television recently
saw a steyer ad  :lol

spoiler (click to show/hide)
also saw adverts for drugs to deal with opioid addiction 
didn't know where to  :doge or  :lol in such a situation
[close]

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48424 on: January 01, 2020, 09:23:06 PM »
A short, straight, $1000 a month type proposal is the ideal way to mainstream a UBI as an idea. Nice round number, simple framing, actually is non-budget busting as it's a concrete figure, etc. It is a conservative proposal, it's similar to things Nixon and Reagan both toyed with (among others) as welfare alternatives, but that's why it has political value. Kinda like the universal mandate once did.

The "Fair Tax" had millions spent on it in both design and marketing and nobody still knows how to calculate what the prebate would have looked like, let alone when it would apply. And this was, again, treated as a serious policy plan with tons of various models run trying to make the things work not as a GOOD policy but in a way that actually could happen.

A "living wage" means nothing. A job "guarantee" demands infrastructure. Raising the minimum wage is a widely admitted ineffective policy versus all kinds of alternative anti-poverty or income policies for anyone who doesn't have it written into their contract.

Imagine if the Alaska Permanent Fund was predictable quantity. (Imagine if sovereign funds couldn't be raided on a whim by legislatures.) Imagine if the base cash part of Bolsa Familia applied to every child. Universal programs don't gain universal acceptance until they're actually perceived as universal and at least predictable if not permanent. This is why Medicare For All keeps its appeal and is becoming a form of litmus test in the Party despite being no less ideal by any respect than Yang's prospective.

shosta

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48425 on: January 01, 2020, 09:30:09 PM »
I don't think I've ever heard anyone define what "living wage" means. It's good as a political catchphrase though. Really the fight for 15 stuff originated in the cities and it started in the cities specifically because rent went crazy (and some of this was made worse by left activists blocking the building of new housing because it can raise rents). If you fix rent in the cities and you had a national health insurance program and/or healthcare cost control on par with other countries, $8/hr is a "living wage" in most of the country.

Anyway my favorite nonsense is when people say we should tie wages to the inflation rate
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benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48427 on: January 01, 2020, 09:45:03 PM »
filler missing the most important story of the day??

https://twitter.com/NicoleSganga/status/1212449859896324100

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48428 on: January 01, 2020, 09:47:37 PM »
we did it fam:
By Rod Blagojevich    |   Wednesday, 01 January 2020 02:07 PM

I, like most people from my home state of Illinois, am a great admirer of Abraham Lincoln.

Recently I've wondered what would have happened had Nancy Pelosi been the Speaker of the House when Abraham Lincoln was president.

Would Speaker Pelosi's House Democrats use the same flimsy impeachment standard they are currently using to impeach Honest Abe, one of the greatest presidents in the history of our country?

In 1998 I was a member of the U.S. House of Representatives during the Clinton impeachment, and in 2009, as the 40th governor of Illinois, I had the unhappy experience of being impeached and removed from office.

Nevertheless, I offer this interesting and unique perspective about impeachment as I sit here in prison.

Consider the possibilities.

First, today's Democrats would have impeached Lincoln for obstruction of Congress and abuse of power when he unilaterally issued his Emancipation Proclamation.

Joe Molotov

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48429 on: January 01, 2020, 10:07:37 PM »
Lincoln suspending habeas corpus to own the Democrats :lawd
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curly

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48430 on: January 01, 2020, 10:08:39 PM »
shosta teaming up with benji for a libertarian heel turn :hhh

where's the class war, tovarishch?

shosta

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48431 on: January 01, 2020, 10:11:36 PM »
you try to tax the shit out of rich people and just hand that money to people like it's fuckin christmas and the bernouts crawl outta the woodwork to call you a class traitor because you didn't tie it to gulag hours

fml
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shosta

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48432 on: January 01, 2020, 10:13:37 PM »
can't wait to caucus for elizabeth ann warren next month
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OnlyRegret

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48433 on: January 01, 2020, 10:13:57 PM »
you try to tax the shit out of rich people and just hand that money to people like it's fuckin christmas and the bernouts crawl outta the woodwork to call you a class traitor because you didn't tie it to gulag hours

fml

sometimes I feel bad their politics and movement are tied to an elderly geezer, sometimes I don't


curly

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48434 on: January 01, 2020, 10:14:24 PM »
you can try to confuse me with your math and percentages but you aren't getting anywhere with a venture capitalist doing yellowface for the amusement of the honkies

shosta

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48435 on: January 01, 2020, 10:17:52 PM »
actually I don't support michael bloomberg

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote from: Bloomberg
Xi Jinping is not a dictator
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OnlyRegret

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48436 on: January 01, 2020, 10:18:36 PM »
A short, straight, $1000 a month type proposal is the ideal way to mainstream a UBI as an idea. Nice round number, simple framing, actually is non-budget busting as it's a concrete figure, etc. It is a conservative proposal, it's similar to things Nixon and Reagan both toyed with (among others) as welfare alternatives, but that's why it has political value. Kinda like the universal mandate once did.

The "Fair Tax" had millions spent on it in both design and marketing and nobody still knows how to calculate what the prebate would have looked like, let alone when it would apply. And this was, again, treated as a serious policy plan with tons of various models run trying to make the things work not as a GOOD policy but in a way that actually could happen.

A "living wage" means nothing. A job "guarantee" demands infrastructure. Raising the minimum wage is a widely admitted ineffective policy versus all kinds of alternative anti-poverty or income policies for anyone who doesn't have it written into their contract.

Imagine if the Alaska Permanent Fund was predictable quantity. (Imagine if sovereign funds couldn't be raided on a whim by legislatures.) Imagine if the base cash part of Bolsa Familia applied to every child. Universal programs don't gain universal acceptance until they're actually perceived as universal and at least predictable if not permanent. This is why Medicare For All keeps its appeal and is becoming a form of litmus test in the Party despite being no less ideal by any respect than Yang's prospective.

I also like it connects to the gig economy bullshit people try to push. In that it makes it less miserable for the majority of people involved.
If you're going to be given tentative employment options and forced flexibility, at the very least it'd be nice if it was additional money you were making.

curly

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48437 on: January 01, 2020, 10:21:14 PM »
actually I don't support michael bloomberg

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote from: Bloomberg
Xi Jinping is not a dictator
[close]

Deng Xiaoping is someone who has done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more

agrajag

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48438 on: January 01, 2020, 10:28:31 PM »
I wonder what a UBI program is going to look at once the repubs are done gutting it in Congress. $30 a month? No matter which candidate wins, most people are fucked.

shosta

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48439 on: January 01, 2020, 10:29:43 PM »
One day we'll have true socialism and I'll be bartering stakhanovite rewards for pornography on the black market. blat :rejoice
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Joe Molotov

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48440 on: January 01, 2020, 10:30:39 PM »
I wonder what a UBI program is going to look at once the repubs are done gutting it in Congress. $30 a month? No matter which candidate wins, most people are fucked.

You have to climb a tower in every region and collect a dozen flags to activate benefits.
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Mandark

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48441 on: January 01, 2020, 10:36:15 PM »
I wonder what a UBI program is going to look at once the repubs are done gutting it in Congress. $30 a month? No matter which candidate wins, most people are fucked.

same thing going on with this argument as with the rent one

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48442 on: January 01, 2020, 10:44:49 PM »
I wonder what a UBI program is going to look at once the repubs are done gutting it in Congress. $30 a month? No matter which candidate wins, most people are fucked.

You have to climb a tower in every region and collect a dozen flags to activate benefits.
You did buy the Season Pass right?

agrajag

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48443 on: January 01, 2020, 10:45:29 PM »
unlike your concern trolling about m4a  :lol  :doge :brain

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48444 on: January 01, 2020, 10:46:02 PM »
Please activate your SSN on uPlay.

Mandark

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48445 on: January 01, 2020, 10:50:43 PM »
but seriously folks, anyone want to explain the ubi/rent thing?

shosta

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48446 on: January 01, 2020, 10:52:43 PM »
I hope terrible things happen to you and your family.
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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48447 on: January 01, 2020, 11:01:07 PM »
don't like yang or ubi but I think there's a glaring flaw with the rent argument, particularly from a socdem perspective

haven't actually read much of the ubi discourse (because lol) so it's possible that I'm just missing something, hence me asking super politely for an explanation

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48448 on: January 01, 2020, 11:07:39 PM »
The Saturday event was only Peters' second time seeing a candidate in person this Iowa caucus cycle. He saw U.S. Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts nearly a year ago, when she first announced her bid for the Democratic presidential nomination. Peters had effectively tuned out the crowded race since then, and he's still undecided.

...

“I am one of the undecided,” declared Jenny Burton, a social worker who attended the West Des Moines Buttigieg event. Burton noted that she had met author Marianne Williamson in Des Moines a few days earlier. Burton is actively considering multiple candidates, including Williamson and Warren.

“I’m trying to get in with anybody who’s coming to the community," Burton explained about her caucus strategy in the weeks ahead.

Burton added about the candidates: "I respect all of them, almost equally. That’s why it’s so difficult for me to narrow it down to one."

...

Waters said he has usually decided which candidate to caucus for by now.

“There’s too many good ones,” Waters said about his dilemma this time.

Some likely caucusgoers are in no rush to figure things out.

Jim Oxendale, who saw U.S. Sen. Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota at a Dec. 22 event in Ida Grove, said he won’t make a final decision “until the last 15 minutes” before the caucuses.

"I think this is a very serious thing," said the 70-year-old Oxendale, who also lives in Ida Grove. "And it makes me nervous to commit to somebody too early because we’re a long way from February."

After hearing former Vice President Joe Biden speak in Tipton on Saturday, West Liberty resident Faye Petersen said she is "beginning to think that perhaps he’s the one."

Even so, Petersen added, she is still undecided — she also likes Klobuchar, Booker and entrepreneur Andrew Yang

...

Peters said while his interest in Warren has subsided, he likes Buttigieg. He is also intrigued by former U.S. Rep. John Delaney from Maryland.

“He’s someone I’d like to look a little more into,” Peters said of Delaney. “… He’s kind of been someone I’ve paid attention to the whole time he’s been in the race.”

Peters said he knows several friends who are undecided like him. He said some have expressed interest in U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders from Vermont and Yang.

...

The 25-year-old teacher had committed to caucus for Kamala Harris. Now that the U.S. senator from California is out of the race, Foubert is actively looking for the next person to support. She attended a Biden event in Williamsburg on Dec. 27, in part because it was close to her home in North English, about 30 miles away.

But Foubert has found no favorites yet that resonate with her the way Harris did. So she plans to see as many candidates in person as she can. The Biden event was the first for her. She said she was drawn to Biden’s experience with foreign diplomacy.

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48449 on: January 01, 2020, 11:11:40 PM »
but seriously folks, anyone want to explain the ubi/rent thing?
don't like yang or ubi but I think there's a glaring flaw with the rent argument, particularly from a socdem perspective

haven't actually read much of the ubi discourse (because lol) so it's possible that I'm just missing something, hence me asking super politely for an explanation
It's literally what's been posted:
"I'll give you $1,000 a month to fuck off."
Landlords: "THANKS FOR THE $1,000 A MONTH FROM OUR RENTERS, YANG! *raises rent*"
Tenants get $1000 UBI
Landlord increases rent by $1000.

There's also an aspect where rich people already paying, say $5000 a month, won't see a comparable increase in their own rent since it's already so high.

Mandark

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48450 on: January 01, 2020, 11:15:47 PM »
yeah if that's all there is to it then it's a baaaaaaaaad argument for socdems to make

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48451 on: January 01, 2020, 11:21:37 PM »
The thing I've seen on less left sites is lots of inflation worries related to it, even though it's kind of a drop in the bucket compared to standard government operating procedure.

I think a lot of people miss that Yang's plan is totally tied in with there being a VAT starting at 10% and increasing for certain luxury items and increasing overall in the future.

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48452 on: January 01, 2020, 11:45:51 PM »
you guys ever go to a post way back in this thread and find yourself start trying to figure out what the hell the thread title of the period is referencing :lol

shosta

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48453 on: January 01, 2020, 11:49:51 PM »
Which title was it?
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benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48454 on: January 01, 2020, 11:54:04 PM »
"The Benji Memo" from around those thehunter116 posts

apparently it was some Devin Nunes memo that said nothing, which I know doesn't help much either

Cauliflower Of Love

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48455 on: January 01, 2020, 11:57:40 PM »
I have a spreadsheet for that

Mandark

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48456 on: January 02, 2020, 12:00:30 AM »
nunes (really his staff) wrote a memo on how the trump-russia thing was a deep state conspiracy

the memo was classified and there was a whole #releasethememo thing on twitter on the right

so trump declassified the memo, it turned out not to be a bombshell, dems wrote their own memo, trump kept that one classified and nothing happened

team filler

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48457 on: January 02, 2020, 12:02:28 AM »
dems and pubs both love them delicious nothing burgers  :lol
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curly

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48458 on: January 02, 2020, 12:04:36 AM »
don't like yang or ubi but I think there's a glaring flaw with the rent argument, particularly from a socdem perspective

haven't actually read much of the ubi discourse (because lol) so it's possible that I'm just missing something, hence me asking super politely for an explanation

Policy matters only in as much as it fits within a larger political project. UBI is a tool that can serve liberatory ends or entrench the power of capital, which landlords are a shorthand for in the ubi/rent meme, which being a meme should not be taken literally or as a fully formed argument.

Mandark

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48459 on: January 02, 2020, 12:08:51 AM »
But you see why I think people on the left should hesitate to cosign that argument, right?

curly

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48460 on: January 02, 2020, 12:18:16 AM »
That it can be applied to M4A, Green New Deal, etc? I think that's an essential point to understand if this version of social democracy is to be different than the last

Mandark

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48461 on: January 02, 2020, 01:13:00 AM »
It's an argument against the minimum wage, food stamps, a tight labor market, countercyclical deficits, or anything that puts more money in the pockets of working people. It's an echo of the right/libertarian case against those things that I've been reading for decades: unintended consequences, firms making adjustments, the direct material benefits being washed away by other more subtle forces (inflation, reduced hours, automation) and the rubes thinking they've got a bigger paycheck when it's all illusory.

Mandark

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48462 on: January 02, 2020, 01:59:46 AM »
Yang's the TED Talk candidate, the theme of his campaign is that the best way to improve society is through new, disruptive, outside-the-box, solutions-oriented thinking.

The things that draw people to him are basically the same as the ones that were red flags for me: the autodidacticism, the focus on "emerging challenges" at the expense of existing problems, the premium he seems to put on novelty, the technofetishism (HT Esch). I get the appeal: people who are mistrusting of or worn out by party politics and want someone fresh who can cut through the bullshit and come up with solutions. He's sort of Ross Perot for dudes with STEM degrees.

OnlyRegret

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48463 on: January 02, 2020, 02:16:24 AM »
Yang becomes a meme when you actually take a look at his politics outside of UBI.

Wrt Education:
- Wants to excessively lower administrative positions on the University level to "make college cheaper" and wants excess endowment from major schools to go to building new universities. That's about it.
-- Compare this with Bernie who seeks modernize the modern post-secondary experience to meet modern concerns (higher pay for teaching positions, finally restructuring public post-secondary schools to be like public primary/secondary re:holisitic revamps to student health & meals/tuition free/not needing to opt into indentured servititude 

Wrt Health:
- Quietly backs down on Medicare for All/single payer and instead vaguely comments on "incentive" options to R&D, doctors, and insurance companies
-- Bernie continues pushing single payer, removing the capitalist influence re:companies competing to nickel and dime human beings least offensively in regards to ailments that require immediate attention.

The reality is that Yang's system is not one that benefits glaring issues that have needed desperate funding and restructuring for ages, and is content on living in the current system with mere nebulous claims of YANGGANG incentivization to arbitrary positions. It encourages complacency.

Post-secondary degrees are in more demand as jobs in technology/health sectors grow, yet students are (on the public route) forced to go sometimes 100k+ in debt. Despite being "public", it is just a given that pretty much every student *must* be beholden to debt for the majority of their upcoming life, it is a given that they *must* be a full-time student and work a job or already be wealthy, that students *must* foot the cost of tuition while being exploited by certain industries (many textbooks now charge ~$140 for semester access to material through an online access code w/ no resell options), and that health/food is another debt-incurring concern to juggle despite already being spread thin-- and this is just examining the issues of (one) current public institution that has been left unaccountable to the whims of the "market" and endowments.

The reality is that our public institutions are shit, and the current solution of treating human issues as an exploitable pool aided by Yang's key investments into supposed 'good-faith actors in the scene' is whack.

"Ah, but our lord and saviour Bernard Saint Sanders would do *amazing things* while everyone else is a LAME-O"

Mandark

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48464 on: January 02, 2020, 02:18:33 AM »
I don't know, the red flags quirks of a failed entrepreneur and start-up fetishist seem very much to not be disruptive or outside-the-box.

They instead very much sound like failed corporate shake-ups and incentives learned from business guru led seminars, desperately put in place when CEOs refuse to tackle the burning fire outside their office door.
It's safe to assume any time I use those phrases it's ironically.

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48465 on: January 02, 2020, 03:20:18 AM »
"We need to reduce the number administrators from 1-21 to 1-50, like it was in the 1970's!" - A very memeable, ostensibly simple way of lowering costs with zero actual meaning. Yet this is the first action he has listed when he plans to take presidency under his section to "Control the Cost of Higher Education"
how about this one in the list:
Quote
As President, I will...

Amend or modify the U.S. News and World Report rankings and eliminate the ability of any university to compensate administrators with incentives tied to their rankings.

Nintex

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Tripon

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Tripon

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48468 on: January 02, 2020, 11:05:08 AM »
https://twitter.com/MollyJongFast/status/1212744563955249152

Maryanne Williamson continues to slay after not making a debate for half a year.  :science


Cauliflower Of Love

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48470 on: January 02, 2020, 12:13:05 PM »
https://www.vox.com/2020/1/2/21046153/bernie-sanders-fourth-quarter-fundraising-haul

Quote
As his hometown paper Seven Days noted; the $34.5 million raised this quarter is more than the $33 million Sanders had raised at this point in the 2016 primary race.

This is pretty notable, considering he's running against like 55 people, which was supposed to thin out how much each candidate would be getting.

Mandark

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48471 on: January 02, 2020, 12:39:13 PM »
The combined fundraising for the Dem candidates is way higher than Trump's, which apparently wasn't the case for the incumbents in 2004 or 2012. Who knows if it means anything.

Cauliflower Of Love

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48472 on: January 02, 2020, 01:00:54 PM »
Sure, but trump & co don't really need to worry about legal tabulations. Doesn't make sense to compare right to trump now.

Dickie Dee

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Tripon

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48474 on: January 02, 2020, 01:31:20 PM »
Sure, but trump & co don't really need to worry about legal tabulations. Doesn't make sense to compare right to trump now.

I don't know, the press did it for Q3. Basically a "No Dem can stop the Republican + Trump juggernaut."

OnlyRegret

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48475 on: January 02, 2020, 02:44:16 PM »
https://twitter.com/MollyJongFast/status/1212744563955249152

Maryanne Williamson continues to slay after not making a debate for half a year.  :science

perpetual upset from that one :aah


shosta

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Tripon

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48478 on: January 02, 2020, 04:30:08 PM »
berniebros are so easily triggered :dead

https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1212797131561549828

Pretty obvious trope.

https://twitter.com/WalkerBragman/status/1212801649498083333

If WaPo didn't think they fucked up, why change the photo?

OnlyRegret

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| I M P E A C H ' D
« Reply #48479 on: January 02, 2020, 04:31:32 PM »
berniebros are so easily triggered :dead

 :lol