Author Topic: The Economy |OT| Guess I'll Just Die?  (Read 29351 times)

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Flannel Boy

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #121 on: April 20, 2020, 01:43:18 PM »
https://twitter.com/mehdikara27/status/1252291177531019267

I don't mean to be crude, but the economy is fucked.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 01:53:23 PM by Flannel Boy »

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« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 02:29:06 PM by Flannel Boy »

Nintex

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #123 on: April 20, 2020, 02:31:33 PM »
So that's 3 fries, 2 hamburgers and 2 boxes of McNuggets for a total of $19.89 would you like a free BARREL OF OIL with that sir?
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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #125 on: April 20, 2020, 02:36:08 PM »
BREAKING
Putin and MBS just shot themselves in the head

BREAKING
Trump announces purchase of 1 million barrels of oil for $5.78 every US household receives a free BARREL OF OIL THIS WEEK. Sign up now on freeoil.gov 
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shosta

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #126 on: April 20, 2020, 02:37:20 PM »
The Fed is already buying oil company debt. Printing money to keep the oil moving is like... de facto nationalization
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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #127 on: April 20, 2020, 02:39:25 PM »
Not if you just plan to just forgive that debt so oil CEOs can afford their bonuses. 

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #128 on: April 20, 2020, 02:41:22 PM »
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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #130 on: April 20, 2020, 02:43:05 PM »
TBH, I'd rather see Canadian nationalization of oil than for it to collapse as it is a national security issue and we should keep production capabilities.  We are going to need oil for a long time still so the argument that is will be good environmentally is not really valid. 

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #131 on: April 20, 2020, 02:44:21 PM »
Not if you just plan to just forgive that debt so oil CEOs can afford their bonuses.
the government won't bankrupt lenders by decree, they'll just keep purchasing liabilities.
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shosta

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #132 on: April 20, 2020, 02:45:55 PM »
The real issue with low prices is what that does to the income of specific regions. It'll be extremely bad
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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #133 on: April 20, 2020, 02:48:38 PM »
The real issue with low prices is what that does to the income of specific regions. It'll be extremely bad
Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, who will go down first?  :doge
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Momo

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #134 on: April 20, 2020, 02:51:26 PM »
The real issue with low prices is what that does to the income of specific regions. It'll be extremely bad
I mean if it doesn't recover pumping oil won't be economically viable, plus now you will have countries sitting on huge stocks they need to burn through before they get back to buying oil at regular prices. I don't see demand recovering for a while as I don't see lockdowns going away soon

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #135 on: April 20, 2020, 02:51:35 PM »
Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, who will go down first?  :doge
Texas
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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #136 on: April 20, 2020, 02:52:35 PM »
The real issue with low prices is what that does to the income of specific regions. It'll be extremely bad
Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, who will go down first?  :doge
Saudi Arabia and Russia will be fine, they are actually the people driving this and I can't see their endgame being 'well now we're fucked'

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #137 on: April 20, 2020, 02:53:49 PM »
@1:50 US oil people talking about the impact on US energy

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #138 on: April 20, 2020, 02:59:11 PM »
I mean if it doesn't recover pumping oil won't be economically viable, plus now you will have countries sitting on huge stocks they need to burn through before they get back to buying oil at regular prices. I don't see demand recovering for a while as I don't see lockdowns going away soon
What governments should be doing is what they are doing: purchasing oil for strategic reserves so that the glut can be distributed more orderly over a larger period of time and production doesn't have to shut on and off. It doesn't matter that it's not "economically viable" because we don't need the oil - there is already oil, that's the problem. The particulars in keeping the companies' balance books healthy is just a policy thing. But again, the biggest issue is: less exports = less imports. We will see how many dollars the world economy can actually handle.
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Brehvolution

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #139 on: April 20, 2020, 03:00:11 PM »
@1:50 US oil people talking about the impact on US energy



So much ball washing. It's unwatchable.  :yuck
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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #140 on: April 20, 2020, 03:07:29 PM »
@1:50 US oil people talking about the impact on US energy



So much ball washing. It's unwatchable.  :yuck
I just mentally blocked every time they praised Trump lmao

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #141 on: April 20, 2020, 03:07:36 PM »
Saudi Arabia and Russia will be fine, they are actually the people driving this and I can't see their endgame being 'well now we're fucked'
It's a Mexican standoff thing. If you can wait out your other guy long enough that he lowers his production you can end up with a larger share of the market than you did before. Everyone has to quit pumping at the same time in a "fair way". Which they did, OPEC cut production.
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Brehvolution

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #142 on: April 20, 2020, 03:10:14 PM »
Wasn't it about 13 years ago, oil was selling at $140 a barrel? The whole system is bullshit.
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Nintex

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #143 on: April 20, 2020, 03:11:51 PM »
"Thank you for sending us ventilators so soon Mr. Trump!"
"My pleasure Macron, please use them to save your great people!"

"Mr. Trump, we got your containers but they're stacked with barrels of oil...."
"Oops sorry, must've mixed up the shipments"
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Momo

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #144 on: April 20, 2020, 03:12:54 PM »
I mean if it doesn't recover pumping oil won't be economically viable, plus now you will have countries sitting on huge stocks they need to burn through before they get back to buying oil at regular prices. I don't see demand recovering for a while as I don't see lockdowns going away soon
What governments should be doing is what they are doing: purchasing oil for strategic reserves so that the glut can be distributed more orderly over a larger period of time and production doesn't have to shut on and off. It doesn't matter that it's not "economically viable" because we don't need the oil - there is already oil, that's the problem. The particulars in keeping the companies' balance books healthy is just a policy thing. But again, the biggest issue is: less exports = less imports. We will see how many dollars the world economy can actually handle.
weird fact about South Africa, we actually have the biggest crude storage facility in the entire southern hemisphere and looking to build an even bigger terminal. Also I'm saying it won't be economically viable for energy producers, they will go bankrupt and or nationalised/expensive bailouts. The economics of governments buying oil and storing it is as you say a policy thing.

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #145 on: April 20, 2020, 03:15:57 PM »
Wasn't it about 13 years ago, oil was selling at $140 a barrel? The whole system is bullshit.
price fixing isn't illegal when your goverment does it  :idont

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #149 on: April 20, 2020, 05:19:00 PM »
Was it worth it to cause a world wide depression to win an internet bet?

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #150 on: April 20, 2020, 05:30:06 PM »
Oil dupers sending the price negative on the auction house

Hacker coronachan one shotting high level players

GMs stopping me from farming dungeons and finding a new guild

FUCK. THIS. GAME.

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #152 on: April 20, 2020, 06:23:25 PM »
edit: meh, don't want to add to speculation
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 06:30:10 PM by Propagandhim »

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #153 on: April 20, 2020, 07:15:26 PM »
edit: meh, don't want to add to speculation
Coward  :hmph
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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #156 on: April 21, 2020, 02:01:29 AM »
Quote from: Politico
Lenders are warning their customers they might not be able to secure loans even if Congress provides an additional $300 billion as soon as this week. Banking industry representatives say the program has a burn rate of $50 billion per day and needs closer to $1 trillion to meet demand, with hundreds of thousands of applications pending.
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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #158 on: April 21, 2020, 10:37:09 PM »
Interactive Brokers had to fulfill $88 million of margin settlements in a single day for customers long on oil that lost more than their accounts had equity.  Fucking lol

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #159 on: April 22, 2020, 03:12:47 AM »
James I hope that somewhow, somewhere you're still betting on stonks. Just look at how the pros are doing. This could've been you:

Feb 21 2020
Oil trader Pierre Andurand suffers big hedge fund loss
https://www.ft.com/content/3aa77c60-53f7-11ea-8841-482eed0038b1
Quote
Pierre Andurand, one of the world’s best-known oil traders, has suffered a big loss in his hedge fund during a turbulent start to 2020 for energy markets.

Mr Andurand, founder of London-based Andurand Capital Management, one of the last few hedge funds specialising in oil, experienced a loss of about 8 per cent in his main fund in January, according to three people familiar with its performance.

The fund, which last year was managing about $1bn in assets, also lost money in 2018 and 2019, with January extending the streak of declines for a trader who used to pride himself on beating often-volatile oil markets.

April 21 2020
Oil trader Pierre Andurand cleans up in crude’s historic crash
https://www.ft.com/content/1c8e9f81-bdcf-4b15-be6a-92cc88beca27

Quote
Pierre Andurand, one of the world’s best-known hedge fund managers specialising in oil, cashed in on US crude’s historic crash this week, adding to strong gains in both of his main funds this year.
[...]
His two funds started betting against the oil price, reasoning energy would be one of the hardest-hit sectors. The core fund, which holds roughly half of the firm’s assets under management, gained more than 63 per cent for the year, net of fees, in the first quarter, according to people familiar with the fund’s performance.

His second, riskier fund, which is now roughly the same size, was up 153 per cent over the same period. Crude was trading close to $70 a barrel in early January. 

What's the secret?

Quote
Mr Andurand, a kick-boxing devotee and former champion swimmer, has in the past recruited a number of Olympic gold medallists to his roster of analysts and traders, working out of offices overlooking the luxury department store Harrods in Knightsbridge, London.

Those gold medallist swimmers come in handy when the world is drowning in oil  :pimp

https://twitter.com/Cameronvdburgh/status/1252310785289674752

spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #160 on: April 22, 2020, 03:19:58 AM »
 :fbm
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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #161 on: April 22, 2020, 03:29:48 PM »
small business tyrants love voting republican  :kermit
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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #162 on: April 22, 2020, 09:03:57 PM »
So I have some bonds that my grandpa left me when he died a while back. I sold most of them to pay for grad school, but still have some. I don't really know anything about them other than I get like $1,000 a year check which is cool and they seem to go up and down slightly over the quarters.

Anyhow, my parents are telling me that during major recessions it's likely a lot of these small municipals will file bankruptcy and then all your bonds become $0 and you lose everything, so they're telling me to sell my whole portfolio now before that happens. It's down a little (like $3,000 or something from when they were purchased) and they're paying out at like 3-5% and won't be able to put it into anything right now beyond like 1% online bank. So will lose some money if I dump it all now.

Just looking for second opinions since I know nothing about bonds. I'm super financially conservative and don't invest at all so don't know much about this stuff.

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #163 on: April 22, 2020, 09:05:44 PM »
this government is a wildcard but I would genuinely be surprised if the federal government wasn't forced to bail out literally everyone this year. Mandark already posted this but the fed is already buying municipal bonds.
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shosta

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #164 on: April 22, 2020, 09:59:49 PM »
Ok never mind

Quote
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on Wednesday insisted that flailing state and local governments should be able to “use the bankruptcy route” rather than receive aid from the federal government — signaling renewed opposition to a top Democratic demand for the next coronavirus relief package.

In an interview with conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt, the Kentucky Republican also expressed concern about adding billions more to the national debt in addition to the nearly $3 trillion Congress has already sent out the door to combat the economic and public health challenges of the pandemic.
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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #166 on: April 23, 2020, 10:36:04 AM »
So I have some bonds that my grandpa left me when he died a while back. I sold most of them to pay for grad school, but still have some. I don't really know anything about them other than I get like $1,000 a year check which is cool and they seem to go up and down slightly over the quarters.

Anyhow, my parents are telling me that during major recessions it's likely a lot of these small municipals will file bankruptcy and then all your bonds become $0 and you lose everything, so they're telling me to sell my whole portfolio now before that happens. It's down a little (like $3,000 or something from when they were purchased) and they're paying out at like 3-5% and won't be able to put it into anything right now beyond like 1% online bank. So will lose some money if I dump it all now.

Just looking for second opinions since I know nothing about bonds. I'm super financially conservative and don't invest at all so don't know much about this stuff.

So I have some bonds that my grandpa left me when he died a while back. I sold most of them to pay for grad school, but still have some. I don't really know anything about them other than I get like $1,000 a year check which is cool and they seem to go up and down slightly over the quarters.

Anyhow, my parents are telling me that during major recessions it's likely a lot of these small municipals will file bankruptcy and then all your bonds become $0 and you lose everything, so they're telling me to sell my whole portfolio now before that happens. It's down a little (like $3,000 or something from when they were purchased) and they're paying out at like 3-5% and won't be able to put it into anything right now beyond like 1% online bank. So will lose some money if I dump it all now.

Just looking for second opinions since I know nothing about bonds. I'm super financially conservative and don't invest at all so don't know much about this stuff.

 

If it were me, I'd hold onto them.  I think the muni market will hold up.   In general, municipals act as a buffer against equity volatility.  There's been increased attractiveness of municipal bond yields after taxes, relative to Treasuries during the increased market activity of the pandemic.  The conventional wisdom is that muni's benefit from a flight to safety, that muni bond issuers are equipped to deal with the challenges of normal credit cycles, and Treasury yields being driven lower is an indication of that 'flight' happening. A municipal/Treasury ratio above 100% indicates investors should strongly favor municipal bonds over Treasuries and the Muni-Treasury ratios remain significantly higher than their historical averages (there are a lot of numbers  to sift through here over different periods of time etc. but we'll leave it at that).   Also, municipal governments have used the longest economic expansion on record to shore up their balance sheets and rainy-day reserve funds with high tax receipts - In fact, states began the coronavirus crisis with record-level reserves.   

Your parents reservations aren't exactly wrong though: A recession will reduce most tax and fee revenues pledged to bondholders, and municipal bonds tend to be sensitive to issuer rating downgrades.  As this corona stuff keeps goes on, everyone does anticipate disruptions and downgrades.  Again, State and local govt's have historical levels of cash-reserve funds, and the federal gov't taking up a higher share of things like Medicaid to soften the blow to states should help, too.  Sales and income taxes decline in economic recessions - and of course people aren't going out and buying as much stuff right now.  As layoffs begin, income tax revenue will suffer too.  But states and municipalities have the authority to raise taxes, tap reserves and cut expenditures, allowing them to ride out a downturn better than most. 

I mean, it's only $1000 a year - you're not going to really feel any impact if anything does happen.  Also, try to find a competing perspective, I don't want to actually have an influence on your financial decisions because of my dumb opinions.   :lol
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 10:40:09 AM by Propagandhim »

Nintex

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #167 on: April 23, 2020, 12:17:46 PM »
So I have some bonds that my grandpa left me when he died a while back. I sold most of them to pay for grad school, but still have some. I don't really know anything about them other than I get like $1,000 a year check which is cool and they seem to go up and down slightly over the quarters.

Anyhow, my parents are telling me that during major recessions it's likely a lot of these small municipals will file bankruptcy and then all your bonds become $0 and you lose everything, so they're telling me to sell my whole portfolio now before that happens. It's down a little (like $3,000 or something from when they were purchased) and they're paying out at like 3-5% and won't be able to put it into anything right now beyond like 1% online bank. So will lose some money if I dump it all now.

Just looking for second opinions since I know nothing about bonds. I'm super financially conservative and don't invest at all so don't know much about this stuff.
Unless you're really short on money now I would keep it around. Those type of investments are usually for a longer term.
In a few years it's probably worth a lot more than dumping it all now.

Ok never mind

Quote
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on Wednesday insisted that flailing state and local governments should be able to “use the bankruptcy route” rather than receive aid from the federal government — signaling renewed opposition to a top Democratic demand for the next coronavirus relief package.

In an interview with conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt, the Kentucky Republican also expressed concern about adding billions more to the national debt in addition to the nearly $3 trillion Congress has already sent out the door to combat the economic and public health challenges of the pandemic.
I think that sooner or later Trump, the producer of LEGO The Movie and Mitch will clash over the spending.
Trump will spend whatever he thinks is needed to save his election or at the very least end with a higher DOW than Obama.

Mitch and the House Republicans are in this for the long haul. Once they realize that keeping the brrrrr going is like masturbating into a forest fire (rip james) they will opt for more targeted bailouts.
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Propagandhim

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #168 on: April 23, 2020, 12:38:15 PM »


Mitch and the House Republicans are in this for the long haul. Once they realize that keeping the brrrrr going is like masturbating into a forest fire (rip james) they will opt for more targeted bailouts.

McConnell is a senator from Kentucky.  That entire state's existence is one long brrrrrr from the federal government. 

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #169 on: April 24, 2020, 09:46:21 AM »
https://twitter.com/ReformedBroker/status/1253674434659041280

Move your shit into a storage unit, buy some pizza and booze and go live with the parents.

Nintex

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #170 on: April 26, 2020, 06:39:05 AM »
So on the backdrop of all this the Eurobonds fight continues.

The Dutch are appalled that Spain demanded an apology from our Prime Minister for blocking Eurobonds.
A prominent member of the Dutch labour party and former minister has argued in an op-ed in our biggest newspaper that if the Italian and Spanish don't drop their Eurobonds we should do what Macron and the Italians said which is to leave the Euro to those in favor of Eurobonds. We would remain an EU member but wouldn't share the same currency as taking on the debt of Italy and Spain directly is not an option.

This would be the best outcome. The southern countries can share their debt and assuming they pressure Merkel with 'ze War' the Germans will pay for the party.
Meanwhile we stay in the EU like most Scandinavian countries and all trade and commerce will continue. Our new currency would in fact be more valuable than the Euro (much like how the Guilder was coupled to the Deutsche Mark but less volatile).

Economists are proposing a test, to issue a 30 year bond of our new currency to test the waters and see if investors will indeed bite as predicted.
Although they admit that it could signal to the markets that the EU would completely unravel so they'd rather have Merkel come out in support of Eurobonds so we are the only remaining rebel in the block.
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Propagandhim

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #171 on: April 26, 2020, 09:46:03 AM »
A universal European currency is a mistake, but it's hard to know what to do next.  I'd be interested to see the Dutch experimenting with leaving if they think they're so burdened with the 'dumb' and 'lazy' south.  Lord knows, the "PIGS" (they sure love being called that) are tired of hearing the sound of you guys crying.  A warning: an independent currency would include a bunch of externalities that would make their tax haven a little harder to maintain.

As for places like Italy and Spain....the euro was sold to Southern Europe as an uplift to prosperity, after lagging behind more successful northern economies for decades. The conventional wisdom was that by eliminating the exchange rate risk + lowering interest rates, a more competitive Southern Europe would emerge.  And when the Euro was introduced, there was an immediate but very short lived boost for these economies.  Countries like Spain/Italy/Portugal, which had historically high inflation did actually benefit from lower interest rates, but the cheaper financing also had the unintended consequence of taking away pressure, a sense of urgency, and mandate on governments to enact economic policy reforms and they stagnated as a result of that.  In Germany, and the small surrounding countries that integrated into its industrial economy, the reverse was true.  Don't underestimate the effect of having the sovereign ability to make sweeping economic reforms at notice: Germany was called "the sick man of Europe" in the early 2000s, then their economy took off following huge labor market reforms. They were once stymied by the strength of the deutsche mark, but now Germany benefits from the euro’s lower exchange rate, which made its goods more competitive abroad.  And that's really particularly true of the eurozone itself, which accounts for something like 40 percent of Germany’s exports.  So for decades, exporters from Southern Europe could undercut their German competitors on price -- no, not anymore.   That wouldn’t be such a problem if Germans reciprocated by buying their neighbors’ exports, but they don't.  Germans prefer to save, both in the public and private sectors, so the country has large trade surpluses with almost every country in the eurozone.  Instead of acting as the great equalizer, as the progenitors of the euro promised, the euro exacerbated Europe’s economic divisions and left some countries worse off.   In Italy, per/capita capita GDP in 1999, the year the euro was introduced, was about €1,000 above the eurozone average...by the end of last year, it had fallen to about €4,000 below the average. The economy has been stalled for 20+ years.

And you know, contrary to the perception you guys have of Italy today - they actually have run a small budgetary surplus, before interest payments, year after year.  But without economic growth, the country's debt (from a legacy of overspending in the 80s and 90s when their GDP overtook the UK ("il sorpasso") has remained high.  Relinquishing their financial sovereignty has given them very little to show for themselves.  At €2.5 trillion, Italy has the greatest debt burden of any country in the euro area except for Greece -- something like 140% of GDP. Germany’s debt is less than 60 percent of its GDP.  Rome can continue to finance itself for now because the ECB is buying its debt in the markets, keeping quiet on the interest it pays...that's not going to last forever.

So yeah, Rome wants the EU to issue common debt, but there's the question:  "what difference will it really make?"  Germans wonder, 'what's the point?' Bailing out a country like Italy would just bring them back to the pre-crisis point and it wouldn't solve the underlying issues that the Euro has been implicated in less successful economies.  A single currency would still have all the same problems and be just as exposed as it always was.  On the other hand, Italy isn't Greece - German industry is heavily engaged in the country, as are German banks.  Germans actually have an interest in uplifting the economy there, and can't fuck them over as badly as they did with austerity for the Greeks.  And in regards to Italy's massive debt: if it were to leave the Euro and bring back the lira, it'll just be servicing its euro debt with a weaker currency -- a much weaker currency.  That debt mountain is not something to gloss over for a Euro exit, no matter what il capitano Salvini says to his idiot followers.

This is hard.  Much harder than "My country is just so much better at policy and managing money than these dumb southerners". 
spoiler (click to show/hide)
PS:  Van Goghe had no artistic talent  and wouldn't even be noticed on Deviant Art today.  Starry Ass.
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« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 10:43:43 AM by Propagandhim »

Nintex

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #172 on: April 26, 2020, 10:49:02 AM »
The issue has always been that Germany wants budgetary control and the French want their debt shared.
Neither country wants to bend on those issues so instead the Brussels bureaucrats believe more Europe or rather a Federal Europe is the answer to all their problems which has only distanced them further from the citizens.

The block keeps kicking the can down the road on pretty much all issues until countries decide to have a go at it themselves.
The only way Eurobonds will ever make it is when the EU has a common budget or Germany and others can impose austerity on Italy and France if necessary to balance the books.
Everyone knows that the southern states will never accept such harsh measures such as a higher retirement age (France is 62, Netherlands 68) and dealing with the 'grey' markets.
Greece has shown them what budget control from Germany and the Netherlands will look like and they didn't like it.

Especially Italy would lose a living standard that is far above what their economy could actually support if they would meet the current EU spending regulations (let alone if they wanted to balance the books).
That was true before and even more so during the Covid 19 crisis.
🤴

Propagandhim

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #173 on: April 26, 2020, 10:49:15 AM »
You're not supposed to like the post, you're supposed to argue with me.

edit:  Oh nvm

Propagandhim

  • Senior Member
Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #174 on: April 26, 2020, 11:11:11 AM »
The issue has always been that Germany wants budgetary control and the French want their debt shared.
Neither country wants to bend on those issues so instead the Brussels bureaucrats believe more Europe or rather a Federal Europe is the answer to all their problems which has only distanced them further from the citizens.

The block keeps kicking the can down the road on pretty much all issues until countries decide to have a go at it themselves.
The only way Eurobonds will ever make it is when the EU has a common budget or Germany and others can impose austerity on Italy and France if necessary to balance the books.
Everyone knows that the southern states will never accept such harsh measures such as a higher retirement age (France is 62, Netherlands 68) and dealing with the 'grey' markets.
Greece has shown them what budget control from Germany and the Netherlands will look like and they didn't like it.

Especially Italy would lose a living standard that is far above what their economy could actually support if they would meet the current EU spending regulations (let alone if they wanted to balance the books).
That was true before and even more so during the Covid 19 crisis.

France’s usual approach seems to be trying to push Germany to the limit, and then caving in to what Berlin wants.  As for Italy, while I think you're massively overestimating the impact of EU spending regulations on livings standards: If you're going to complain about anything, it should be that Italy is already the biggest beneficiary of the ECB bond-buying program, which has kept a lid on its borrowing costs. The central bank has bought more than 50 billion euros in assets via its new pandemic-related program over its first three weeks — many of them Italian government bonds.  But beyond that - they've avoided excessive deficit procedure, not because of the kindness of the EU's heart, but because despite massive public debt, they've been under the 3 percent deficit ceiling.  Their books are balanced.  They're following the rules.  They produce a budgetary surplus every single year, pre-interest payments.  They just can't get out of the debt mountain because the Euro doesn't serve them.  In 20 years, the average citizen lost 1/5 to 1/4 of their relative eurozone income and an export advantage b/c of the Euro being suited for the German and surrounding economies.  Italy’s economy is set to shrink by 9%+ this year.  Their living standards have never been worse, and it keeps getting worse.  And the real tragedy of this whole thing is that Vincent Van Gogh was a child molestor. 

« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 11:49:23 AM by Propagandhim »

Nintex

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #175 on: April 26, 2020, 12:00:34 PM »
In other economic news



Even Animal Crossing has gone into full stimulus mode.
🤴

Pissy F Benny

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #176 on: April 26, 2020, 12:17:54 PM »
nook directness :rejoice
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shosta

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Flannel Boy

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Re: Econ |OT| margin call your ex
« Reply #178 on: April 28, 2020, 12:19:03 AM »
Oil tanking again.

What explains the stock market optimism?


Flannel Boy

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