Author Topic: Let's talk about third party voters  (Read 1610 times)

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mormapope

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Let's talk about third party voters
« on: October 04, 2020, 04:51:59 PM »
They're fucking stupid.
OH!

Rahxephon91

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2020, 04:54:19 PM »
These and the both sides are bad fuckers really annoy me. It's like no, one side may be just a status quo democrat, but the other's idea of a status quo is setting back America to some 1950s golden era that never existed. Complete with unsubtly wanting  race and gender roles to be just like they envisioned the 50s to be.

Though also right now that "don't mock a sick man who has done nothing but mock" are up there as well.

mormapope

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2020, 05:04:56 PM »
These and the both sides are bad fuckers really annoy me. It's like no, one side may be just a status quo democrat, but the other's idea of a status quo is setting back America to some 1950s golden era that never existed. Complete with unsubtly wanting  race and gender roles to be just like they envisioned the 50s to be.

Though also right now that "don't mock a sick man who has done nothing but mock" are up there as well.

I'd argue it's a sign of emotional immaturity and lacking social intelligence. When there are sides throughout history, why advocate and put stake into a side that holds no power and will contribute nothing, positive or negative?
OH!

Rahxephon91

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2020, 05:16:45 PM »
Now this is mostly based on what I see on my facebook or hear from people at work ect, but it's always from people who think they are "smart". Like it's from that guy who acts like he's above the petty arguments and has it all figured out. I also get it from a really good friend of mine who is mostly defeatist about this(and life in general). Yeah it does come of as emotional immaturity, because they don't want to put in stake into anything and maybe it makes them feel better thinking they've "seen through the bullshit" when in reality they are just being ineffectual.

I also see the "both sides are the same" from non subtle Trump supports/republicans. It always comes out feeling like they are aware of Trump being shitty, but in the end will vote for him because of maybe a single issue like guns or abortion.

In general I can't understand it. I don't consider myself smart or aware of politics, but I am aware of culture and society. I see Trump as representing an America I sure don't want. As a kid I felt a lot of pride in this country. Despite it's problem, I always felt it was going to in the right direction. I like to believe I am a realistic person. I don't think some utopia is going to happen in my life time. I view humans as flawed and I'm aware the world is built on compromises and systems that are super imperfect. People say politicians lie and that's true, but politics is a game of compromise. But either way I thought society was on the path to getting better for everyone. But then trump comes and he just empowers an America that does not want to grow with the times. I find that very dangerous and I don't think that is good for America or humanity as a whole.

Skullfuckers Anonymous

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2020, 05:21:50 PM »
They're fucking stupid.

In a swing state, sure. In a solid red or blue state, who gives a fuck.

mormapope

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2020, 05:26:28 PM »
They're fucking stupid.

In a swing state, sure. In a solid red or blue state, who gives a fuck.

If that's the case, going thru the effort to vote, instead of not voting, is even more stupid.
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BIONIC

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2020, 05:41:38 PM »
Can’t wait for Benji to ree about this.
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Skullfuckers Anonymous

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2020, 05:50:49 PM »
In a swing state, sure. In a solid red or blue state, who gives a fuck.

If that's the case, going thru the effort to vote, instead of not voting, is even more stupid.

I’m in California so the effort involved is; wait for ballot to show up in mail, fill out ballot, drop it off at a voting station on the way to work.

The presidency is also not the only question on the ballot, we’ve got a dozen propositions and all the state and local positions.

VomKriege

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2020, 06:09:18 PM »
There's only so much and so long you can force yourself in picking the harm reduction choice.
:yeshrug

Even if you have no shot at winning, somebody has to start somewhere and take a stand to keep whatever movement/party marginally relevant or try to hit whatever bar facilitating electoral exposure or public funding (I think you have this in the US too).

And for some, voting is just a minor part of a larger political action throughout their lives.

Bonus :
The strict bipartisanism of the US is a really horrid system and a pretty dysfunctional one to boot.
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Mandark

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2020, 06:10:51 PM »
Hello! I am a European who does not understand how your system works!

 :wow

shosta

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2020, 06:16:05 PM »
Vom's not stupid but I agree with entryism over third parties. The most successful "grassroots" revolt in my lifetime against a major US party was the Tea Party stuff. They primaried major political figures and spread fear in the entire party thanks to extremely effective messaging and suicidal jihadism.
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jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2020, 06:19:58 PM »
The most successful "grassroots" revolt in my lifetime against a major US party was the Tea Party
this is as much an indictment though, right?

shosta

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2020, 06:24:13 PM »
this is as much an indictment though, right?
You're going to have to elaborate. I'm sure I'll agree with whatever examples you come up with (like the deficit being way larger now than it was under obama) but in my memory they sabotaged nearly successful, important, bipartisan deals like immigration reform and some other shit. And they hijacked the party message for fucking 8 years. Poor Boehner.
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jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2020, 06:33:16 PM »
this is as much an indictment though, right?
You're going to have to elaborate.
i mean that the tea partiers were bankrolled by murdoch and the kochs- what i assumed you were referring to by putting grassroots in scare quotes.

while i ultimately agree that ‘entryism’, of some variety, is probably more efficacious than...well anything else in american politics, it cant bode well if ‘entryism’ only works because capital eventually acknowledges the entrants, rebrands itself, and domesticates the movement


shosta

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2020, 06:48:06 PM »
i mean that the tea partiers were bankrolled by murdoch and the kochs- what i assumed you were referring to by putting grassroots in scare quotes.

while i ultimately agree that ‘entryism’, of some variety, is probably more efficacious than...well anything else in american politics, it cant bode well if ‘entryism’ only works because capital eventually acknowledges the entrants, rebrands itself, and domesticates the movement
That's exactly what I meant, yeah :mjcry

I still think the DSA is promising. Next step is to mail the Kelton book to democrats. Or throw it directly at their heads
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VomKriege

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2020, 06:53:06 PM »
Hello! I am a European who does not understand how your system works!

 :wow

Despite having several Democrat administrations, the US hasn't been able to adopt even the most basic social safety ideas, labor protections that are commonplace in Western Europe.

Also despite having more than two functional parties we also are familiar with "entryism" and that whole "must we work on the inside or the outside" debate.

So I think I understand your system is pretty shit.
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shosta

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2020, 06:55:26 PM »
I don't think you understand the recent political history of the US and what late 70s inflation, the Reagan administration, and the success of the new Democrats in the 90s did to the left wing.
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Mandark

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2020, 07:00:38 PM »
Despite having several Democrat administrations, the US hasn't been able to adopt even the most basic social safety ideas, labor protections that are commonplace in Western Europe.

Clear evidence of the abject failure and fecklessness of the Green Party!

VomKriege

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2020, 07:01:34 PM »
I don't think you understand the recent political history of the US and what late 70s inflation, the Reagan administration, and the success of the new Democrats did to the left wing.

I don't really see what it has to do with the principle of third party voting (or not voting).

Also :

Hello! I am an American who is not really familiar with European history.

:wow
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shosta

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2020, 07:08:27 PM »
I don't really see what it has to do with the principle of third party voting (or not voting).
You're saying entryism doesn't work but my point is there were no entryists. The left wing was wiped out by Reagan. Monetarists blamed inflation on misbehaving labor and full employment policies. It was much harder to be elected as a liberal because the voters didn't want it - Reagan saved the economy by destroying unions. The decimation of an organized working class is a scar that affects American politics to this day.
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VomKriege

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2020, 07:09:28 PM »
Please tell me more of those New Democrats, need to import this in Yurop.  Maybe could call it "New Labour", "Deuxième gauche" or "Third Way".
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VomKriege

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2020, 07:10:01 PM »
I don't really see what it has to do with the principle of third party voting (or not voting).
You're saying entryism doesn't work but my point is there were no entryists. The left wing was wiped out by Reagan. Monetarists blamed inflation on misbehaving labor and full employment policies. It was much harder to be elected as a liberal because the voters didn't want it - Reagan saved the economy by destroying unions. The decimation of an organized working class is a scar that affects American politics to this day.

I never said entryism didn't work ?
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Mandark

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2020, 07:11:39 PM »
Before the arguments spin out into various dead-end tangents, let's all just note that nobody in the thread actually wants to make a positive case for voting third party.

VomKriege

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2020, 07:15:02 PM »
Before the arguments spin out into various dead-end tangents, let's all just note that nobody in the thread actually wants to make a positive case for voting third party.

The positive case is voting for what you believe in, regardless of the "efficiency" of the vote.
It doesn't go really deeper than that. Does it need to ?

Is it the correct choice ? I don't know. Is it counterproductive in the larger scheme of US politics as it stands today ? Maybe, but that's up to each voter to make that determination. Is it so bizarre that you cannot understand the concept ? Reading this thread, I guess so.
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shosta

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2020, 07:18:57 PM »
ok I agree with vom now
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 07:27:41 PM by shosta »
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Mandark

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2020, 07:22:20 PM »
The positive case is voting for what you believe in, regardless of the "efficiency" of the vote.
It doesn't go really deeper than that. Does it need to ?

Seems dumb to me!

VomKriege

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2020, 07:27:59 PM »
I already know you had them. Monetarism was even tried and discredited in the UK before America. Now:
Despite having several Democrat administrations, the US hasn't been able to adopt even the most basic social safety ideas, labor protections that are commonplace in Western Europe.
Western Europe implemented those social programs way before Third Way liberalism. If you're asking "why did Europe get it done but the Americans could not", this might sound like a cop-out but I would say it's because the narrow time frame between the postwar period and the neoliberal period Americans were preoccupied with the anti-war movement and desegregation. While '68 was happening in France, Martin Luther King Jr. was being assassinated.

So you agree the system is shit but it's the only one you have so
:yeshrug
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shosta

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2020, 07:29:05 PM »
I would also like multiparty democracy with no term limits and 15 years of uninterrupted socialist rule :goty
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VomKriege

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2020, 07:32:21 PM »
And I would probably vote Dem if I was a US citizen.
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shosta

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2020, 07:34:06 PM »
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
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Nintex

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2020, 07:34:34 PM »
The organized working class disappeared because western societies swapped coal digging in rural areas for service industries, office jobs, finance and later tech in sprawling cities. That urban expansion required ever more regulation and management so lots of public service jobs too. The left could no longer count on 'working class' votes simply because they didn't want those dirty votes anymore. It took conservatives about 3 decades to find these people because a computer algorithm told them they still existed and somehow had not moved to China or India along with their jobs and retirement savings.

In the US someone who owned a private jet went on a safari to the backwater towns to find these people in 2015 and 2016 to tell them they were scammed by the people they had voted for all their lives and the rest as they say is history.

You'd think 'the left' would be bending over backwards to get them back but why bother they're probably all a bunch of racists anyway  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2020, 07:38:51 PM »
this thread: :spiders

me, in the cut, waiting for the discussion to swing around to imaginings of a democratic polity other than elective republics::money

paprikastaude

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2020, 07:39:16 PM »
I would also like multiparty democracy with no term limits and 15 years of uninterrupted socialist rule :goty

My hometown has been socialist since 1945 in a multiparty system and been chosen the world's most livable city for 10 years in a row  :success

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2020, 07:41:25 PM »
[poop]
the problem with this narrative is that it’s wrong on the details, but it’s not like thats ever stopped you before

shosta

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2020, 07:42:37 PM »
me, in the cut, waiting for the discussion to swing around to imaginings of a democratic polity other than elective republics::money
you're such a sortition dork. Might as well decide matters by consulting I Ching
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Great Rumbler

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2020, 07:48:23 PM »
poopoo peepee
dog

VomKriege

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2020, 07:50:28 PM »
Breaking news : Maryland's Third Party Voters acquired by Microsoft for 7.5b$
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jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2020, 07:51:18 PM »
it’s not just sortition though! it’s also about being a maximalist about direct voting on referenda! and creating an expansive public forum for the purposes of deliberation. and...wait, where are you going?

VomKriege

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2020, 07:52:58 PM »
it’s not just sortition though! it’s also about being a maximalist about direct voting on referenda! and creating an expansive public forum for the purposes of deliberation. and...wait, where are you going?

We have this. It's called Facebook.  :existential
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shosta

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2020, 07:53:43 PM »
an expansive public forum for the purposes of deliberation
sorry, buddy... I believe in the division of labor
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jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2020, 07:59:13 PM »
but you get to argue smoothly into the next couple parts of the agenda, the reformation/amplification of public education and the shortening of the work week. how’d everything go so south in just two posts? :brazilcry

Quote
We have this. It's called Facebook.  :existential
thats why you tax the shit out of the top brackets + set max wages while arguing for the transfer of all these democratizing mechanisms into the private sector at the level of the firm :rollsafe. and somehow (dont @ me) encouraging socialization of capital beyond just nationalization
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 08:06:37 PM by jakefromstatefarm »

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2020, 08:10:15 PM »
[pee]
can you imagine the coward mandark having the gall to label these posts ‘dead-end tangents’? :success

spoiler (click to show/hide)
:existential
[close]

Lonewulfeus

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2020, 08:21:10 PM »
And I would probably vote Dem if I was a US citizen.

Only probably? :hhh

chronovore

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2020, 01:29:11 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_third_party_and_independent_United_States_state_governors

Until a viable third party / independent choices are in governor or senate positions in maybe 10% of the State seats, the idea of electing an independent to the highest office seems like an irresponsible pipe dream.

Joe Molotov

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2020, 01:46:28 AM »
Nintendo still has the best 2nd party voters.
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Oblivion

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jorma

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2020, 02:34:36 AM »
I would also like multiparty democracy with no term limits and 15 years of uninterrupted socialist rule :goty

Of course you do, you'd have to be distinguished mentally-challenged not to want that  :trumps

and i'm assuming you actually mean socdem since you're a murican

shosta

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2020, 02:35:46 AM »
Since I was talking to Vom I was referring to Mitterand's presidency, however you want to describe that
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jorma

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2020, 02:40:06 AM »
Since I was talking to Vom I was referring to Mitterand's presidency, however you want to describe that

socdem?

socdem

VomKriege

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2020, 03:22:16 AM »
Since I was talking to Vom I was referring to Mitterand's presidency, however you want to describe that

Mitterrand was President 14 years but 4 years out of those were done with right wing majorities and Prime Ministers.
Most of the iconic measures and reforms were passed in the first two years.
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Don Rumata

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2020, 05:28:54 AM »
Being an undecided voter up until the very last second is the comfy move.
You get coddled and catered to, by both parties, and they don't even get to know which one you went with, in the booth.   ::)
Makes you feel like a spoiled princess.  :-*

daemon

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2020, 05:34:52 AM »
They're fucking stupid.

This is the issue tho. You seem to think that one needs to make a vote "valid" by voting a successful party. If everyone followed this train of thought, the USA (for example) would be doomed to eternally just have democrat vs republican parties government. Here in Spain we've essentially had the same up until recently: red (psoe) vs blue(pp). The brave people voting against the norm for what they believed was correct made the arithmetic much harder, but at the same time showed there's strength to be had in third parties.

Example:

Imagine Bernie as a third party, and now imagine he's needed for the democrats to govern. He could push his socialist agenda deals in a way he only could as the sole winner for the elections. This is pretty much it, smaller parties being able to make political deals so issues that might be less mainstream get the spotlight too.


PS: As long as you only have two real positions, you're gonna keep making two camps that stray further away from each-other due to extremists, imo.

And if you don't think Spain is as divided as the US, just a reminder that we had a big civil war on 1936-39 and a dictatorship that lasted almost 40 years.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 05:44:04 AM by daemon »

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Re: Let's talk about third party voters
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2020, 06:12:45 AM »
Two party system is dumb and one of the reasons why the US is a hit mess.