The coming console war

[naff]

FFVI is also a bad example. FFVI is famous for giving the player control. Yes, it has more story than FFV, but because it's not to the point where it hampers the gameplay. FFVI is actually more open and has more freedom than FFV. WoR can be beaten with four party members, you don't even have to collect all of them. The problem with modern jrpgs is that story gets in the way of gameplay. They're constantly telling you what to do, where to go, what you can do, what you can't do so they can dictate your game experience. Jrpgs have turned in VNs.

eh, it's a superficial control at best. they let you miss characters but the game is very linear scenario wise. the feeling of freedom older FF games give players with the world map is something i've thought about a lot. it's almost entirely superficial, the games are linear, but they do a great job of making the games feel more open while being fairly simple technically; a few continents, some forests a few hidden things to find and a few scenarios you can pick and choose when to complete them (or if you want to complete them at all).

i think a big part of this is videogames being defined significantly by their technical limitations and ambition. big budget games are required to be graphical showcases and assets need to be so much more complex, you're not going to get much random content thrown in these days that you could just miss entirely. who knows, maybe the DQ creators have always wanted to communicate the characterization you loathe but haven't been able to, due to technical hurdles and smaller budgets. also time, success, big teams and money warps everything it touches. it's amazing to me these franchises have held up to this day and continue to be critically acclaimed. almost unheard of in other mediums

[Himu]

eh, it's a superficial control at best. they let you miss characters but the game is very linear scenario wise.

World of Ruin is linear? World of Ruin is very open-ended in how you choose to approach it.

Superficial control or not, I'm allowed to make mistakes. The game does not control me and I can choose what order I do things unlike modern games where this happens.



"Superficial" or not, I'm allowed far more freedom because it's not telling me what to do. If you think is a linear vs non-linear argument you're missing the forest for the trees.

i think a big part of this is videogames being defined significantly by their technical limitations and ambition. big budget games are required to be graphical showcases and assets need to be so much more complex, you're not going to get much random content thrown in that you could just miss entirely. who knows, maybe the DQ creators have always wanted to communicate the characterization you loathe but haven't been able to, due to technical hurdles and smaller budgets. also time, success, big teams and money warps everything it touches. it's amazing to me these franchises have held up to this day and continue to be critically acclaimed. almost unheard of in other mediums

This is a common argument but a complete assumption. DQVIII has none of this kind of characterization and they definitely had the power to achieve it. More than likely they're trying to appeal to a wider audience. In video games all creative decisions are ruled by money so it's the most reasonable target.

[naff]

True. WoR is a brilliant conceit in that respect, but it's still just a series of colleting party members which you do or don't do before confronting the final boss. Sure it's not strictly linear, and you don't have a specific quest log ticking off for finding gau or something but it's really just a hub with optional content/quests that makes you stronger and the end game a little easier like sidequests in any rpg. Just done very, very well (every location on the map, if you haven't explored it yet essentially functioning as a quest marker). I don't know anything about the DQVIII budget or development, but i cant imagine it having nearly as much to allocate as FF since at that point the series sold terribly in the west.

[Himu]

DQ sold poorly in the west prior to XI as well. This argument makes no sense. More than likely they upped the story crap to appeal to westerners, which is by far and away the most successful DQ outside of Japan of all time.

Westerners are ruining my weeb games basically. Reminds me when wrpgs went down the rabbithole of simplifying wrpg mechanics to the point where the genre became unrecognizable beyond aesthetics. This is a fatal flaw in video games: video games are expensive so you have to appeal to people. Unfortunately, unlike a movie or a book, games have rules. If people are unable to adjust to those rules, make the rules more simple. And that's how a hardcore dungeon crawler franchise becomes fodder for anime waifus, which are great, but JFC. The bigger budgets games get the more concessions there will be so games will always, always change for the worse to appeal to more people and then more people and finally we reach the end where all games must appeal to everyone, and Final Fantasy is an action rpg series now. Meanwhile you can still make a great movie with 1 million bucks and make a profit.

[naff]

sure, that too. but there's also nothing to imply the scenario writers and designers on DQ11 that had also worked on so many of the prior games, didn't enjoy and lovingly create the world of DQ11 according to what they wanted to create, despite being a departure from the more minimalistic approach of prior titles.

[naff]

also, it's not westerners it's capitalism and capitulating to market forces "destroying" your weeb games. and wrpg's are stronger and more complex than they've ever been. i've read you complaining about shit like the witcher 3 specifically like 1) that defines wrpg trends or 2) is a simple game (the build diversity and ways you can approach different scenarios is huge)

Meanwhile you can still make a great movie with 1 million bucks and make a profit.

comeon. only incredibly small, independent films are made on this kind of budget

[Himu]

DQXI had a new director and team. Essentially Horii is retiring. It's the new guard. I'm fucked.

[Himu]

also, it's not westerners it's capitalism and capitulating to market forces "destroying" your weeb games. and wrpg's are stronger and more complex than they've ever been. i've read you complaining about shit like the witcher 3 specifically like 1) that defines wrpg trends or 2) is a simple game (the build diversity and ways you can approach different scenarios is huge)

Meanwhile you can still make a great movie with 1 million bucks and make a profit.

comeon. only incredibly small, independent films are made on this kind of budget

This is a realization I had a while back: that capitalism destroys the things I love even my hobbies that it birthed for me. Capitalism gives and it taketh away. The bastard. 

Wrpgs bounced back, I never denied that. My hope is that jrpgs unfuck themselves with this try hard anime story telling hour bullshit. Get it out of your system and let people play games again. If I wanted a goddamn mother fucking VN I'd install Danganronpa.

[thetylerrob]

DQ11 is one of the best in the series and 7 is one of the wordiest. 

[Himu]

DQ11 is one of the best in the series and 7 is one of the wordiest. 

VII is the best. VII is only wordy because of its girth of content. It just keeps going and going until you hit pubic bone.

[naff]

DQXI had a new director and team. Essentially Horii is retiring. It's the new guard. I'm fucked.

was horii not lead scenario writer/designer on all of them even the heartbeat ones? seems like nearly every entry has had different teams and directors working on it with horii being the throughline

[HardcoreRetro]

FF12 is turn based.

It's not. Then any game with cooldown timers on special attacks is turn based. God of War 2018 was my favourite turn based rpg.

[Himu]

FF12 is turn based.

It's not. Then any game with cooldown timers on special attacks is turn based. God of War 2018 was my favourite turn based rpg.

I'm not getting into this argument and will not dignify a response past this post. It's essentially arguing ATB isn't a turn based system but "time based" ignoring you can play every ATB game on something called wait mode which is the same thing but without time added. The time is only there to give the game more oomph (i.e. knowing you'll be attacked while going through menus). FFXII is ATB in reverse. This argument is always stupid. It's still a command based RPG. Who cares. Guess Valkyrie Profile aren't turn based games to you either because you do combos. Vapid reasoning.



Ah yes, let's compare this....to God of War. Surely it's not turn based. Right. Talking about RPG gameplay with gamers is like banging my foot with a hammer. Always comes down to some dumbass semantic argument.

[HardcoreRetro]

By your reasoning MMOs are turn based as well. Everything is on a timer. Xenoblade Chronicles is also turn based.

[Rahxephon91]

But the difference is FFXII, abilities aren't on a cooldown. The entire character is.

FFXII is just the atb on the field, meaning no transition to a battle screen. You're comparing it to Xenoblade or WoW, but it's not really the same. Xenoblade is all about managing cooldowns, positioning, and even combining the abilities. But it's not like you press the stagger attack and then can't do the dazed attack right after. In XII, you can only do one attack per atb turn. Comparing this to GoW is wrong, again it's not like once Kratos uses his cooldown he can't do anything else while it's filling up.

I mean I think calling it a cooldown is pretty incorrect. When people use the term cooldown for games they are usually talking about timers for specific abilities, not the entire characters action. For that they say turn.