Author Topic: Other Forums Containment Thread  (Read 2875990 times)

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joeboy101

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benjipwns

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33962 on: November 18, 2022, 07:24:26 PM »
I seriously wonder how Nepenthe rationalizes in her mind, how as a functioning, non-mentally stunted, non-disabled person like her can't attain marketable skills in 2022 because of a past history of chattel slavery.   At some point do you just throw your hands up in the air and say, "I have no free will.  The whites took it from me."  And if so, why even live?  Or why not move?  Do white people just control everything no matter where you go?  What's the point of even waking up in the morning?  Also, what does her brain do when it sees a black doctor, lawyer, programmer, banker, professor...?  It just short-circuits or reflexively belts out, "COON!" at the raw impossibility of it all?
She does it to spite the whites because giving up is exactly what they want her to do. :ufup

benjipwns

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33963 on: November 18, 2022, 07:57:02 PM »
Quote from: Sublime Hysteric
It's hard to know what to recommend to help you enhance your understanding without knowing your background OP, but Mark Fisher's Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative? deftly explores the contradictions underlying the framing of the question asked in your original post and I felt it was helpful during my political education. In terms of directly laying out alternatives, no one book has all the answers from every single angle or aspect that constitutes emancipation in the 21st century but in terms of generalities, Peter Frase put out a book called Four Futures: Life After Capitalism that I think someone asking this question might find interesting. There's also Nick Srnicek and Alex Williams' Inventing The Future: Postcapitalism and a World Without Work which gets into the more technical aspects of capitalism's tendencies, and more recently Aaron Bastani's Fully Automated Luxury Communism which has good accounts of how scientific and technological revolutions have the potential to enhance universal prosperity instead of private ownership, though in my opinion the book is a little naive with its use of the concept of populism in its advocacy of how we transform current global society. From another angle and much shorter is Laboria Cuboniks' The Xenofeminist Manifesto: A Politics for Alienation which explores emancipation and system change from the dimensions of gender and sexuality which complements the other recommendations I've listed above. Hope these recommendations were helpful to someone who (genuinely?) is interested in alternatives to capitalism.
"Assume a can opener"

Quote from: Nepenthe
Can you show me the scientific evidence that says that capitalism is a genetic predisposition of the human species?

Quote from: Nepenthe
Can you show me a single meta study that concludes that producing and consuming more and more resources from the planet is an innate trait of most specimens of the human species? If not, why do you believe that's true?
Quote from: Professor NepNep
People do want for more, but we also simultaneously know that human fulfillment and happiness generally caps out at something like between $75-100K USD, so we know there literally is a ceiling of fulfillment for most people. "Yeah, some people want more than that and want to be multimillionaires and billionaires."

Okay? Fuck 'em. Some people really like being serial killers, and they have a psychological inclination to killing, but that doesn't mean we allow them to do it, now does it? We can curb the excesses of the worst people without forcing ourselves into this unnecessary false dichotomy that doing so will endanger us all. This is one of the many lies that capitalists tell you. "Why, if you stop me from doing whatever I want, you'll only be hurting yourself. You're going to be rich someday if you just keep on working hard. Don't hamstring yourself."
You're arguing that slave labor (the only alternative theory proposed) is scientifically innate in humans and makes them happier, Nepenthe. You're basically leaning into the Lost Cause mythology that slaves were happier and more fulfilled under slavery because they had intact families and less crime. You'd be offended at the comparison and attempt to silence it because you know it's true.

You'd think that for someone who insists that she continues to be harmed to this day and every day by people with the same skin color once being enslaved she would understand the distinction between owning your own labor or yourself being owned a little more clearly.

The lesson of the 20th Century wasn't that communism failed, that was clearly going to happen but some people don't learn except through experience. The lesson was that every time the communist states lifted their hand slightly the market came roaring back to fill the gap. The Soviets and CCP spent how long baffled by this? Modern communist states don't even pretend they don't accept markets anymore.

Confiscatory taxation isn't an alternative to capitalism, it's simply deliberately making yourself poorer to try and skim off the profits that capitalism provides. These idiots don't even understand the debate they think they're having and have devoted their personalities to. Labor is capital. You either own your own labor and can freely contract and trade it (capitalism) or the state owns you (the alternative theories), this is the moral debate. The economic debate is whether free trade or central planning is superior and if you still think there should be testing done to determine this you're actually immune to evidence, that's assuming you're not smart enough to grasp that having less information means central planning is inherently inferior and exponentially so when you establish a totalitarian state (dictatorship of the proletariat) where dissent earns you death or worse.

You're marks (or marxs?) because you believed that some German dude getting a divine vision of utopia he guaranteed would happen is somehow better evidence than human history. You don't even listen to the nonsense you claim to support because you can't defend that his step one was "establish permanent slave labor for everyone on the planet" so you handwave endless slavery where any opposition let alone emancipation is outlawed (until it naturally "withers away" per Engels) as somehow being more freeing than being able to own your own labor. You're demanding perfection against good then arguing against good on the basis of being falsely promised perfection.

I can read all those stupid books, I read lots of stupid things willingly, I have devoted my life to reading stupid things especially those about politics, but before I do this, those of you arguing for an alternative proposed in one of these should tell me if any of the books address what happens when I labor on my own and wish to trade the results from that labor to Nintex for profit. Does the state tell me no and orders me to labor only for the state? It's the fundamental moral question and most Western communists refuse to answer it because they know the answer isn't acceptable in liberal democratic society. Anarchocommunists almost never answer the variation of it towards them because it's their ultimate blind spot. "People won't labor for anyone but the community because humanity will have evolved out of the profit motive" isn't an answer to what happens when someone does. Gene Roddenberry sniffing his own farts and trying to make free trade into abject evil couldn't even bring himself to do it and he was the Great Bird of the Galaxy. I'm suppose to believe that you, person who willingly discloses to have not engaged with any of the work, has figured it out?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 08:05:40 PM by benjipwns »

Uncle

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33964 on: November 18, 2022, 08:13:14 PM »
san francisco launches pilot program for universal basic income for trans people only, looking forward to the era thread

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-11-18/san-francisco-launches-guaranteed-income-program-for-transgender-residents

btw here's part of the application




Uncle

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33965 on: November 18, 2022, 08:18:26 PM »
This is a weird rule

Quote
Since the OP is not taking an interest in updating this thread, it is now locked. Someone else is welcome to make a review thread

Keep in mind the ResetEra General Guide rules for review threads:
Quote
Review Threads
These should not be created until the first reviews have been published. Given how quickly narratives can form and change around review scores and their averages, review threads require diligent maintenance. The original post should be updated as more information comes in. Do not create a review thread with only the first few reviews and then disappear. If you cannot take on this responsibility, please refrain from making the thread and leave it to someone else. Review threads should include an excerpt of the review, the score (if available), and a link to the source. The Metacritic and/or Opencritic averages are welcome and should also be updated. Video reviews should be incorporated into larger review threads and not given their own threads. Videos that are not official reviews (such as analyses, general impressions, or joke reviews) can be posted in separate threads.

Now they’re making members do free work too.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/pokemon-scarlet-and-violet-review-thread.655206/page-30#post-96758577

benjipwns

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33966 on: November 18, 2022, 08:23:14 PM »
btw here's part of the application
Why can't I decline to answer the first question? What is this gatekeeping shit? THIS IS GENOCIDE JOANNE

Hap Shaughnessy

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33967 on: November 18, 2022, 08:30:39 PM »
https://www.resetera.com/threads/trump-files-for-2024-candidacy-up-announced-during-low-energy-nazzzzzzi-rally.654639/page-14#post-96635790

Quote
:cop User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing concerns of systemic bigotry across multiple posts, account in junior phase
Quote from:  Rykan
Quote from: microgreen
Considering Trump made racism the focal point of his campaign, with studies backing up the fact that racism was the biggest indicator of a voter's likelihood of supporting Trump
Trump did make racist statements several times, but saying that was the focal point of his campaign is very, very debatable. Your second point is misinterpretation of data. Racism being the biggest indicator of a voters likelyhood to vote for trump =/= Most people voted for him because they are racist.
OBE

benjipwns

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33968 on: November 18, 2022, 08:39:26 PM »
That wouldn't be "systemic bigotry" even if he was wrong.

Cauliflower Of Love

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33969 on: November 18, 2022, 08:58:23 PM »
This is a weird rule

Quote
Since the OP is not taking an interest in updating this thread, it is now locked. Someone else is welcome to make a review thread

Keep in mind the ResetEra General Guide rules for review threads:
Quote
Review Threads
These should not be created until the first reviews have been published. Given how quickly narratives can form and change around review scores and their averages, review threads require diligent maintenance. The original post should be updated as more information comes in. Do not create a review thread with only the first few reviews and then disappear. If you cannot take on this responsibility, please refrain from making the thread and leave it to someone else. Review threads should include an excerpt of the review, the score (if available), and a link to the source. The Metacritic and/or Opencritic averages are welcome and should also be updated. Video reviews should be incorporated into larger review threads and not given their own threads. Videos that are not official reviews (such as analyses, general impressions, or joke reviews) can be posted in separate threads.

Now they’re making members do free work too.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/pokemon-scarlet-and-violet-review-thread.655206/page-30#post-96758577

This was a big thing, members doing free work, on NeoGAF and people started clowning on OTs.

Hap Shaughnessy

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33970 on: November 18, 2022, 08:58:25 PM »
https://www.resetera.com/threads/black-panther-wakanda-forever-ot-chadwick-forever-open-spoilers.652557/page-8#post-96400725
Quote from: Dreams-Visions
random: goddamn Lupita is flawless.


https://www.resetera.com/threads/black-panther-wakanda-forever-ot-chadwick-forever-open-spoilers.652557/page-9#post-96409851
Quote from: Elegant Weapon
My lady friend was like “I could tell you really liked her”

Lupita is… uh, quite fit.


https://www.resetera.com/threads/black-panther-wakanda-forever-ot-chadwick-forever-open-spoilers.652557/page-9#post-96410427
Quote from: Dreams-Visions
*SWEATS*

Quote from: Elegant Weapon
That first dress she had on…. 🥵


https://www.resetera.com/threads/black-panther-wakanda-forever-ot-chadwick-forever-open-spoilers.652557/page-9#post-96414969
Quote from: KhrossSF
when she was on the beach waiting for the Queen to contact her back. think it was before she dove underwater.....mannn

                    Boys club rhetoric
 :isthis

https://www.resetera.com/threads/2022-us-midterm-electrons-ot-roeing-against-the-wave.652212/page-160#post-96321990
Quote
:cop User Banned (1 Week): Boys Club Rhetoric
Quote from: Maynerd
Please marry me
https://twitter.com/sophieota/status/1586758686747279364?


https://www.resetera.com/threads/2022-us-midterm-electrons-ot-roeing-against-the-wave.652212/page-160#post-96322008
Quote
:cop User Banned (1 Week): Boys Club Rhetoric
Quote from: Vommy
Yes... yes, I will.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/elon-musk-twitter-drama-ot-let%E2%80%99s-keep-it-here-parody-%F0%9F%94%B5-official-%EA%95%A4.649272/page-200#post-96550191
Quote
:cop User Banned (3 Days): objectification of women
Quote from: megamanofnumbers
The only positive thing I got from this post is... uh... Gal Gadot looks very... nice.


https://www.resetera.com/threads/black-panther-wakanda-forever-ot-chadwick-forever-open-spoilers.652557/page-26#post-96781335
Quote from: Aprikurt
It was a very emotional movie, but my main takeaway from the film is that Lupita Nyong'o is drop dead gorgeous... Like, seriously wow

https://www.resetera.com/threads/black-panther-wakanda-forever-ot-chadwick-forever-open-spoilers.652557/page-26#post-96788028
Quote from: 808s & Villainy
Took you long enough
OBE

Potato

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33971 on: November 18, 2022, 09:34:59 PM »
san francisco launches pilot program for universal basic income for trans people only, looking forward to the era thread

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-11-18/san-francisco-launches-guaranteed-income-program-for-transgender-residents

btw here's part of the application

(Image removed from quote.)
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(Image removed from quote.)
Do I get extra money if I tick every box?
Spud

Straight Edge

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33972 on: November 18, 2022, 09:44:39 PM »
Sign me up for "brotherboy"
Oi Oi

BisMarckie

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33973 on: November 18, 2022, 10:00:14 PM »
That wouldn't be "systemic bigotry" even if he was wrong.

Pedantry is white supremacy :ufup


Taco Bell Tower

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33974 on: November 18, 2022, 10:29:06 PM »
This is a weird rule

Quote
Since the OP is not taking an interest in updating this thread, it is now locked. Someone else is welcome to make a review thread

Keep in mind the ResetEra General Guide rules for review threads:
Quote
Review Threads
These should not be created until the first reviews have been published. Given how quickly narratives can form and change around review scores and their averages, review threads require diligent maintenance. The original post should be updated as more information comes in. Do not create a review thread with only the first few reviews and then disappear. If you cannot take on this responsibility, please refrain from making the thread and leave it to someone else. Review threads should include an excerpt of the review, the score (if available), and a link to the source. The Metacritic and/or Opencritic averages are welcome and should also be updated. Video reviews should be incorporated into larger review threads and not given their own threads. Videos that are not official reviews (such as analyses, general impressions, or joke reviews) can be posted in separate threads.

Now they’re making members do free work too.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/pokemon-scarlet-and-violet-review-thread.655206/page-30#post-96758577
Can't wait for the Harry Potter game review :curious

HaughtyFrank

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33975 on: November 18, 2022, 10:43:36 PM »
https://www.resetera.com/threads/count-as-high-as-we-can-until-mods-close-the-thread.556576/page-76

Those rascals are still at it. Who said Resetera can't have fun  :patel


joeboy101

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33976 on: November 18, 2022, 10:47:58 PM »
san francisco launches pilot program for universal basic income for trans people only, looking forward to the era thread

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-11-18/san-francisco-launches-guaranteed-income-program-for-transgender-residents

btw here's part of the application


That application is probably already out of date with 7 new gender identities added.

Nintex

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33977 on: November 19, 2022, 04:10:37 AM »
san francisco launches pilot program for universal basic income for trans people only, looking forward to the era thread

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-11-18/san-francisco-launches-guaranteed-income-program-for-transgender-residents

btw here's part of the application

(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)
Great idea, have the working class minorities pay up for mostly lazy white people with access to expensive therapies.
🤴

Snoopycat_

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33978 on: November 19, 2022, 05:50:36 AM »
Quote from: Noam Nepsky
You don't have a menial job to go to at a certain time anymore, working for a boss, although you are expected to reasonably pitch in towards the maintenance of the utilities and resources you want to access within your community. Ex. You take from a public garden then you better make sure you're putting back what you took for the next person who comes along somehow, either through time spent cultivating it or providing resources for its maintenance. Libraries of the commons would also be a more fundamental public service where you can have access to the tools and items you may need without having to necessarily go and buy them; people donate usable but unwanted "things" (cookware, furniture, lawn equipment, clothing, etc.) and you rent this like you would a book at a library, and bring it back when you're done. Art and culture would still be valuable pursuits too, and indeed, freer expressions of self and culture would be encouraged: city and park demonstrations, more volunteer upkeep of buildings, more public paintings and graffiti, street music, etc. People should be encouraged to be creative and have fun with others. Housing would be more mixed; closer quarters where most amenities (bars and restaurants, clubs, pharmacies, grocery stores, etc.) are within walking or biking distance. And so long as a spot or joint is free and fits your living needs, you can claim it as your home so long as you promise to abide by whatever community and/or local ordinances exist there. Political organization would be expressed through a consensus based form of representation. Everyone is encouraged to participate in local meetings to address grievances, and goals and demands are reached through discussion and consensus and delivered to a higher presiding body by a representative who is voted on by the chosen body. This representative would ideally not always be the same person to temper the inclination of power-tripping. Also, we're fucking off of fossil fuels permanently and our public transporation is robust and strong. Solarpunk reality baby.

 :rofl

This biggest laugh is this though -

"This representative would ideally not always be the same person to temper the inclination of power-tripping."

Holy fuck she's oblivious, or delusional. Probably both

Mostima

  • Junior Member
Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33979 on: November 19, 2022, 06:31:01 AM »
Yes, jobs like running companies should be cycled between everybody to avoid power-tripping. Highly skilled and specialized work like unpaid video game message board moderating however will not be changing, as it is already immune to power-tripping.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 06:52:43 AM by Mostima »

Potato

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33980 on: November 19, 2022, 06:39:18 AM »
How is Neopetenthe going to enforce her "take a book, leave a book" rules?
Spud

benjipwns

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33981 on: November 19, 2022, 07:43:45 AM »
Quote from: Noam Nepsky
You don't have a menial job to go to at a certain time anymore, working for a boss, although you are expected to reasonably pitch in towards the maintenance of the utilities and resources you want to access within your community. Ex. You take from a public garden then you better make sure you're putting back what you took for the next person who comes along somehow, either through time spent cultivating it or providing resources for its maintenance.
Oh, I better make sure huh? Or what you gonna send the cops after me to enforce your "property" rights? Fuuucccckkooooofffoooofff bougie scum! Hey everyone we've got a wannabe landlord over here trying to bring back capitalism and undermine the community! She's using her fursuit to sneak off to meetings with foreign class enemies!

Quote from: Noam Nepsky
Political organization would be expressed through a consensus based form of representation. Everyone is encouraged to participate in local meetings to address grievances, and goals and demands are reached through discussion and consensus and delivered to a higher presiding body by a representative who is voted on by the chosen body.
Awesome, check this out, I'm going to be against anything you want no matter what. There will never be consensus for anything Nepenthe wants. Everyone else gets a chance at consensus, but never Nepenthe.

HaughtyFrank

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33982 on: November 19, 2022, 07:48:24 AM »
san francisco launches pilot program for universal basic income for trans people only, looking forward to the era thread

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-11-18/san-francisco-launches-guaranteed-income-program-for-transgender-residents

btw here's part of the application

(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)

Uh, why is "taco" and "dyke" part of sexual orientation?

Straight Edge

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33983 on: November 19, 2022, 08:03:53 AM »
Neppy's utopia can only exist in small hunter/gatherer groups who unfortunately don't produce power tools.
Oi Oi

BisMarckie

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33984 on: November 19, 2022, 08:21:10 AM »
Neppy's utopia can only exist in small hunter/gatherer groups who unfortunately don't produce power tools.


Listen, you right wing chuds always bring up the word utopia. What is a state other than the community of all people living in it? It is not possible for a socialist state to become a faceless bureaucracy as long as you hire the right people for these jobs. People who don't want this style of living are simply left alone and don't have to collaborate, it is completely voluntary.

benjipwns

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33985 on: November 19, 2022, 08:42:56 AM »
Neppy's utopia can only exist in small hunter/gatherer groups who unfortunately don't produce power tools.
Communes have long been a thing before she re-invented them, even in the capitalist hellscape she's forced to take Versa loans in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_utopian_communities

Some others have been less successful.

Propagandhim

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33986 on: November 19, 2022, 09:05:49 AM »
Quote from: nep
People should be encouraged to be creative and have fun with others.
Quote
freer expressions of self and culture would be encouraged
Quote
Everyone is encouraged to participate in local meetings to address grievances

The state has encouraged me to make these macaroni collages that may please the Commisar of Fun And Culture.  Today is Lucio Day and the encouragement is off the charts.  The encouragement I have allowed myself to receive has lead me to consult the Good Book of Culture which has instructed me to put the correct amount of macaroni pieces in Lucio's hair, as per the encouragers pleasure.  Oh no, I have used the same macaroni hairstyle on another character....a white one.   It was an accident.  I did not mean to breach the Hair Appropriation Clause...please...ever since the Night of Stolen Fortnite Dances, we, as a collective people have learned our lesson!

I..
please don't..
.....NOOOOOOoooo   
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 09:11:16 AM by Propagandhim »

BisMarckie

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33987 on: November 19, 2022, 09:24:24 AM »
Seize the means of fursuit production!

NekoFever

  • Member
Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33988 on: November 19, 2022, 09:25:06 AM »
I suppose the community that will ban you for expressing the wrong grievance in their local meeting thread is on point for their fantasies.

Uncle

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33989 on: November 19, 2022, 09:31:42 AM »
Neppy's utopia can only exist in small hunter/gatherer groups who unfortunately don't produce power tools.
Communes have long been a thing before she re-invented them, even in the capitalist hellscape she's forced to take Versa loans in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_utopian_communities

Some others have been less successful.

https://coloradosun.com/2022/02/08/black-hammer-utopia-norwood-colorado/

Quote
When Black Hammer came to Beaver Pines, a sparsely populated neighborhood on the high desert about 25 miles west of Telluride, they came for the soil.

They were about two dozen leftist revolutionaries, almost all people of color. In Denver and other U.S. cities, the group’s chapters had spent the pandemic handing out food and personal protective equipment while planning their signature project: Hammer City, a utopian settlement high in the Rocky Mountains free of coronavirus, cops, money and white people. Together they would renounce private property, work the land and build power.

Commenters on Facebook and Twitter widely ridiculed the concept as a “cult” doomed for failure. But the activists raised more than $60,000. On May 3, 2021, Augustus Romain Jr., the group’s commander-in-chief, posted a photo of 10 people standing among sagebrush with raised fists and a declaration on Facebook: Black Hammer had “liberated” 200 acres of land somewhere in Colorado. The soil, they wrote, was rich.

Black Hammer never said where their new community was. Within weeks, the group suddenly stopped its dispatches from the desert.

But donations continued pouring in, eventually cresting the $100,000 mark, according to the organization’s fundraising webpage. Critics online wondered where the money went when the Hammers left Colorado. Tureyel Quan, the Black Hammer Organization chief of staff, declined an interview for this article, citing bias in media coverage of COVID-19 vaccines, which the group opposes.

After Black Hammer narrowly failed to purchase its land, Hammer City joined the rich history of failed utopian projects in Colorado.

In the Beaver Pines subdivision and the community around nearby Norwood, population 600, the Black Hammer Organization left an impression. When the activists decamped May 17, what remained was a partially built footbridge, a property sign riddled with bullet holes and a local man shaken after an armed standoff.



« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 09:38:46 AM by Uncle »
Uncle

Propagandhim

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33990 on: November 19, 2022, 09:39:59 AM »
:dead  That joker scene always gets me

Laaaaaand back!

D3RANG3D

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33991 on: November 19, 2022, 11:04:39 AM »
The way that dumb biaaaatch talks on that first video.


Straight Edge

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33992 on: November 19, 2022, 11:24:09 AM »
Neppy's utopia can only exist in small hunter/gatherer groups who unfortunately don't produce power tools.
Communes have long been a thing before she re-invented them, even in the capitalist hellscape she's forced to take Versa loans in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_utopian_communities

Some others have been less successful.

The founding and ending dates for most of those communes shows how successful they are.
Oi Oi

Uncle

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33993 on: November 19, 2022, 11:26:12 AM »
they're never started by a disgruntled successful city planner or a revolutionary experienced farmer  :doge
Uncle

Straight Edge

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33994 on: November 19, 2022, 11:29:11 AM »
Nor even a cashier at a national pharmacy chain.
Oi Oi

Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33995 on: November 19, 2022, 12:30:29 PM »
https://www.resetera.com/threads/fifa-president-gianni-infantino-at-a-qatar-conference-i-know-what-it-feels-like-to-be-discriminated-i-was-bullied-because-i-had-red-hair.656094/page-2#post-96808299

Racism is valid if it’s white countries angry at lack of alcohol at sports in an Arab country . The irony of era saying this is so rich it invalidates them being honest brokers with what they argue in what happens in America

Boredfrom

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33996 on: November 19, 2022, 12:37:09 PM »
How is Neopetenthe going to enforce her "take a book, leave a book" rules?


I mean, that is kind of stuff is possible (have read some examples) but generally you need a very tight and close community to be able to pull stuff like that. Mexico City tried to do something like that and was abandoned almost immediately while leaving the stands for years. :doge

Is weird that this generation thinks this is the first time that people have Utopian dreams and commune with nature. Solarpunk has an article while outright saying that is supposed to be utopian writing rather than dystopian (the punk part is because defies colonialism  ::) ).
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 05:01:08 PM by Boredfrom »

Propagandhim

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33997 on: November 19, 2022, 12:41:20 PM »
Quote
Why are white people always so quick to try and feel like theyve been opressed and victimised. I swear i havent seen a people so obsessed with trying to do so

Yeah, no other group of people engages in this phenomenon

Boredfrom

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33998 on: November 19, 2022, 12:42:07 PM »
https://www.resetera.com/threads/fifa-president-gianni-infantino-at-a-qatar-conference-i-know-what-it-feels-like-to-be-discriminated-i-was-bullied-because-i-had-red-hair.656094/page-2#post-96808299

Racism is valid if it’s white countries angry at lack of alcohol at sports in an Arab country . The irony of era saying this is so rich it invalidates them being honest brokers with what they argue in what happens in America

I know what you are saying (RE is using borderline xenophobic with a Muslim country that doesn’t align to their values even if they they defended others in the past) but just to be clear… is the FIFA. The guy is just saying this shit to justify the world cop even after years of warning about slave labor and hyper conservatism that even affects white people.

Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #33999 on: November 19, 2022, 01:32:16 PM »
No excusing Qatar issues but most of the issues with Qatar in era are built on racism and bigotry.
They are just using slave labor as excuse. Most celebrate other western countries being pushers of war crimes and modern day slavery through economics but they won’t go that path because it doesn’t fit their narrative unless it suits them

In fact all the products Apple does celebrate is built using slave labor in India and China but they is OFTEN swept under the rug for convenience while they hyperventilate and salivate over their last gadgets on gaming forums

It’s easy to ignore issues in every country when it doesn’t suit your narrative . I just find it hypocritical. Yes critique Qatar on using cheap labor as slave labor but don’t start using that as an excuse on other aspects
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 01:36:43 PM by maninthemirror »

Skullfuckers Anonymous

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34000 on: November 19, 2022, 01:47:16 PM »
The real gold was hidden in the main FIFA thread.

Quote
Ill conceived, racist post removed by user.

Account ban requested. Apologies to everyone.

Quote
You are both correct. I apologize unreservedly for the racist and ill-judged content of my message. Clearly I have a lot of reflection and work to do in this area.

I have edited the original message, not through cowardice as I deserve the anger I will receive, but to prevent anyone else responding in a frivilous manner to what is an important and understated issue.

I have also requested my account be banned, as both of you (and others I'm sure) managed to see so quickly what was going on means I do not deserve to be a part of this community until some serious mending on my part has taken place.

Again, my apologies to all.

The post in question
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Fuck FIFA. Fuck Qatar.

Having said that, I'm in world cups for the often interesting historical rivalries, or team rivalries that have the potential to be 'a bit tasty'.

A few stand out from the group stages for me this tourny.

Belgium v Morocco (27 November). I live in Brussels and I happen to be travelling to Uzbekistan this day but if I wasn't I'd be enjoying this game in the privacy of my home behind a locked door. Not to say that Moroccan fans (or Belgian for that matter) are particularly riot happy but there's a large Moroccan community in Belgium and there are still strong memories of when Morocco qualified for the world cup 2018 after a win over Cote d'Ivoire in 2017 and proceeded to riot the shit out of the city center and had water cannons turned on them. Potential kick off rating: Medium -High

USA v Iran (29 November). Obvious political and ideological rivalry. Can't see many taking to the streets in the USA but Iran? I'm expecting at least a few burned flags. Potential kick off rating: High - Certain.

Tunisia v France (30 November). Tunisia only gained independence from France in 1956 and conflict continued in the south of the country even after that. With around 700,000 Tunisians in France the odd police car might find itself upside down and on fire come the evening. Potential kick off rating: Medium.

Serbia v Switzerland (2 December). Not an obvious one at first glance but during the Yugoslavian conflict many Albanians and Kosovans were forced to flee their homes and many ended up in Switzerland. You may remember controversy when some swiss players celebrated with Albanian nationalist gestures during the 2018 world cup. Kick off potential: kind of certain?

Did I miss any? Probably, let us know.
[close]

 :lol :lol :lol

https://www.resetera.com/threads/2022-fifa-world-cup-ot-qatarstrophe.655977/page-4#post-96803622

Potato

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34001 on: November 19, 2022, 02:43:45 PM »
Quote from: Noam Nepsky
You don't have a menial job to go to at a certain time anymore, working for a boss, although you are expected to reasonably pitch in towards the maintenance of the utilities and resources you want to access within your community. Ex. You take from a public garden then you better make sure you're putting back what you took for the next person who comes along somehow, either through time spent cultivating it or providing resources for its maintenance.
Oh, I better make sure huh? Or what you gonna send the cops after me to enforce your "property" rights? Fuuucccckkooooofffoooofff bougie scum! Hey everyone we've got a wannabe landlord over here trying to bring back capitalism and undermine the community! She's using her fursuit to sneak off to meetings with foreign class enemies!

Quote from: Noam Nepsky
Political organization would be expressed through a consensus based form of representation. Everyone is encouraged to participate in local meetings to address grievances, and goals and demands are reached through discussion and consensus and delivered to a higher presiding body by a representative who is voted on by the chosen body.
Awesome, check this out, I'm going to be against anything you want no matter what. There will never be consensus for anything Nepenthe wants. Everyone else gets a chance at consensus, but never Nepenthe.
This is how the purges and death camps start Benji.
Spud

Taco Bell Tower

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34002 on: November 19, 2022, 02:44:07 PM »
The real gold was hidden in the main FIFA thread.

Quote
Ill conceived, racist post removed by user.

Account ban requested. Apologies to everyone.

Quote
You are both correct. I apologize unreservedly for the racist and ill-judged content of my message. Clearly I have a lot of reflection and work to do in this area.

I have edited the original message, not through cowardice as I deserve the anger I will receive, but to prevent anyone else responding in a frivilous manner to what is an important and understated issue.

I have also requested my account be banned, as both of you (and others I'm sure) managed to see so quickly what was going on means I do not deserve to be a part of this community until some serious mending on my part has taken place.

Again, my apologies to all.

The post in question
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Fuck FIFA. Fuck Qatar.

Having said that, I'm in world cups for the often interesting historical rivalries, or team rivalries that have the potential to be 'a bit tasty'.

A few stand out from the group stages for me this tourny.

Belgium v Morocco (27 November). I live in Brussels and I happen to be travelling to Uzbekistan this day but if I wasn't I'd be enjoying this game in the privacy of my home behind a locked door. Not to say that Moroccan fans (or Belgian for that matter) are particularly riot happy but there's a large Moroccan community in Belgium and there are still strong memories of when Morocco qualified for the world cup 2018 after a win over Cote d'Ivoire in 2017 and proceeded to riot the shit out of the city center and had water cannons turned on them. Potential kick off rating: Medium -High

USA v Iran (29 November). Obvious political and ideological rivalry. Can't see many taking to the streets in the USA but Iran? I'm expecting at least a few burned flags. Potential kick off rating: High - Certain.

Tunisia v France (30 November). Tunisia only gained independence from France in 1956 and conflict continued in the south of the country even after that. With around 700,000 Tunisians in France the odd police car might find itself upside down and on fire come the evening. Potential kick off rating: Medium.

Serbia v Switzerland (2 December). Not an obvious one at first glance but during the Yugoslavian conflict many Albanians and Kosovans were forced to flee their homes and many ended up in Switzerland. You may remember controversy when some swiss players celebrated with Albanian nationalist gestures during the 2018 world cup. Kick off potential: kind of certain?

Did I miss any? Probably, let us know.
[close]

 :lol :lol :lol

https://www.resetera.com/threads/2022-fifa-world-cup-ot-qatarstrophe.655977/page-4#post-96803622
Quote
Not my place to comment on how you want to move forward with this but I meant it in my previous post when I said I didn't want to sound antagonizing. You seem genuine in your reaction here and that makes you a valuable forum member to discuss with IMO.

Only two posters cared lol

Potato

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34003 on: November 19, 2022, 02:52:20 PM »
How is Neopetenthe going to enforce her "take a book, leave a book" rules?
:doge

I mean, that is kind of stuff is possible (have read some examples) but generally you need a very tight and close community to be able to pull stuff like that. Mexico City tried to do something like that and was abandoned almost immediately while leaving the stands for years. :doge

Is weird that this generation thinks this is the first time that people have Utopian dreams and commune with nature. Solarpunk has an article while outright saying that is supposed to be utopian writing rather than dystopian (the punk part is because defies colonialism  ::) ).
Protip: When I said "book" I didn't mean book.
Spud

Straight Edge

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34004 on: November 19, 2022, 03:41:02 PM »
Why hasn't Neppy moved to one of these many successful communities?
Oi Oi

HaughtyFrank

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34005 on: November 19, 2022, 03:44:00 PM »
I'm not sure Nepenthe has even remotely an idea of how many resources a million people living in a city consume a day. You can't sustain that shit with "everyone chips in a little, if you take a carrot plant a new one"

Potato

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34006 on: November 19, 2022, 03:47:39 PM »
Neopetenthe's version of government would descend into tribal warfare within a week once she realised that Overwatch skins are still not free.

I guess that's where the Capoeira skills come in handy though.
 :cody
Spud

benjipwns

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34007 on: November 19, 2022, 03:48:47 PM »
I know I mention this a lot but remember that Nepenthe made a thread extolling the virtues and benefits of an apocalypse that kills off most of humanity. She's pretty clearly envisioning her non-capitalist utopia after MovieBob exterminates 98% of the global population for the crime of "not being people" already.

Potato

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34008 on: November 19, 2022, 03:50:09 PM »
I know I mention this a lot but remember that Nepenthe made a thread extolling the virtues and benefits of an apocalypse that kills off most of humanity. She's pretty clearly envisioning her non-capitalist utopia after MovieBob exterminates 98% of the global population for the crime of "not being people" already.
The apocalypse will probably come from the armpit of someone like moviebob
Spud

benjipwns

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34009 on: November 19, 2022, 04:02:27 PM »
I'm not sure Nepenthe has even remotely an idea of how many resources a million people living in a city consume a day. You can't sustain that shit with "everyone chips in a little, if you take a carrot plant a new one"
She ever so briefly mentions some higher level authority that the community is able to make "demands" towards. (Which itself I find to be a hilarious particular phrasing as it speaks to a representative democracy in which the goal is to deliberately take resources from other areas by force.) It sounds a lot like how the CCP or North Korea or so on is supposedly structured. Localities elect committees which elect county committees or something which elect province committees or something which eventually work their way to Beijing and then elect the central committee of the party. In reality of course there are no opposition candidates as everyone is chosen by the higher level and presented to be "endorsed" as the only candidates where in theory if enough members do not endorse the candidacy fails and the party hunts down people who don't endorse the chosen candidates. Considering her own views on dissent I would expect her utopian structure to have a similar treatment of anything that threatens the current order as a malicious conspiracy to reimpose capitalism, colonialism and white supremacy.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 04:46:18 PM by benjipwns »

HaughtyFrank

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34010 on: November 19, 2022, 04:03:30 PM »
Speaking of moviebob, the resemblance is uncanny...

https://twitter.com/HoopsVGM/status/1593744058995777541

Propagandhim

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34011 on: November 19, 2022, 04:54:51 PM »
Excuse me.
Excuse me...
Quick point of privilege...
quick point of personal privilege...
yeeeah, hi, yeahhhh first of all, Propagandhim of the Great Lakes region of this capitalist hellscape,
First of all can we figure out a way for the 'take a carrot, leave a carrot' system to include people who might be lutein sensitive?
I have lutein sensitivity and when I take a carrot, I kind of expect some level of inclusivity in our communal farm for people like me to be able to choose between a batch that selects out strains of carotenoids...
yeaaaah uhhh so like, i noticed the farms don't account for this and uhhh, can we allocate some of our Dirty Anime Pussy Library Book funds to get a more 'equalizing' set of carrot farms...
...because uh...you're literally trying to genocide my lutein-sensitve people off of this commune and it's getting really exhausting trying to live through this fight when the Dirty Anime Pussy Library fund keeps growing and we keep falling.

benjipwns

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34012 on: November 19, 2022, 05:17:13 PM »
Excuse me.
Excuse me...
Quick point of privilege...
quick point of personal privilege...
yeeeah, hi, yeahhhh first of all, Propagandhim of the Great Lakes region of this capitalist hellscape,
First of all can we figure out a way for the 'take a carrot, leave a carrot' system to include people who might be lutein sensitive?
I have lutein sensitivity and when I take a carrot, I kind of expect some level of inclusivity in our communal farm for people like me to be able to choose between a batch that selects out strains of carotenoids...
yeaaaah uhhh so like, i noticed the farms don't account for this and uhhh, can we allocate some of our Dirty Anime Pussy Library Book funds to get a more 'equalizing' set of carrot farms...
...because uh...you're literally trying to genocide my lutein-sensitve people off of this commune and it's getting really exhausting trying to live through this fight when the Dirty Anime Pussy Library fund keeps growing and we keep falling.
Ooooh sorry sweaty but you did not state your pronouns and gender identity so we have to rule your attempt at consensus out of order. Please reposition yourself in the progressive stack appropriately so as not to infringe on others right to consensus. Thank you, please understand.

*whispers to aide*
Put them on the list.
[close]

Propagandhim

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34013 on: November 19, 2022, 05:21:28 PM »
yeaaaah uhhh actually yeaaaah see the lack of lutein has induced brain fog so i couldn't even get to the pronouncement of my pronouns (please stop actively killing me) and, as a point of personal privilege, i'd like to officially apply as a lutein-divergent claimant to the counsel, so as to appear at the top of the stack anyway?  yeaaah uhh soo yeahhh

ShutUp

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34014 on: November 19, 2022, 05:26:00 PM »
I'm not sure Nepenthe has even remotely an idea of how many resources a million people living in a city consume a day. You can't sustain that shit with "everyone chips in a little, if you take a carrot plant a new one"

The moment she had to plant one, she’d immediately throw her hands up in defeat.

benjipwns

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34015 on: November 19, 2022, 06:11:32 PM »
She said "or equivalent" which means the people who like planting carrots plant the carrots and she makes the fursuits and Lucio art. You guys are always trying these phony gotchas to try and find some tiny little mistake rather than reevaluting the basis of your non-scientific religious cult belief in capitalism ever working.

benjipwns

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34016 on: November 19, 2022, 08:46:39 PM »
Holy shit, we haven't actually skimmed some of Nepenthe's unhinged shit in that thread, including from that utopian post, she almost literally is ResetERA.com's Pol Pot. :lol

I didn't even bother to read anyone else because I saw the most common avatars and already knew all the stuff it was going to say.

But first, I did read this one because it was right above Nepenthe's post:
China's socialist experience is quite great even though it's demonized by western media/politics. Salaries have been increasing faster than the GDP, inflation and productivity combined meaning more money is effectively going to the workers and less to the billionaires.

As far as I know China has their own climate goals and they achieve them constantly but I don't know how they compare to goals set by UN or multilateral agreements. Their per Capita pollution indexes are lower than Europe/USA though. I also don't know how other countries are doing other than Bolsonaro just wanted to see the Amazon burn.

Their country is quite closed but it is impossible to imagine a country trying to not be a hardcore capitalist not being target by CIA 24/7. Add sanctions to that and you can see how free countries are to self determine their internal politics. Cuba has an economy fucked up by sanctions for the past half century yet they have better services (education, health care) than most countries including some of the richest capitalist ones... The USA will just never let a non-capitalist country be free to join the global economy. I have no doubt the ultimate goal of the CIA is to destabilize China right now. With that said their country being closed and acting as a vigilante state spying on its citizens is just what the external circumstances impose rather than what CCP believes is ideal.
Amazing, a totalitarian regime can deliberately slaughter tens of millions of its citizens for political and ethnic reasons, deliberately starve and work tens of millions of more to death and endlessly persecute an actual countless number of victims while telling everyone why they're doing it and our ACAB progressive friends will allege it's all necessary because of secret CIA plots undermining the deliberately harsh totalitarian system.

And now, Nepenthe:
Do you think there are no alternative forms of national living because it is scientifically impossible for humans to organize their lives any other way other than having most people slave away for a few, or do you think there are no other systems because capitalists want to make sure the entire world lives under a model that enriches them?
The abolishment of capitalism simply means we stop organizing our society in such a manner that the majority of us are forced to work for individuals who feast on our labor and their inverted unfettered access to the world's resources.
It's a false dichotomy that says that everyone's quality of life is definitely going to go down if we are not producing more and more, year after year, and destroying our planet under capitalism. Similar as saying that taking literally anything away from the US military budget to fund other things means the country will definitely be invaded, and who wants an invasion, right?

Fact is, we actually produce more than enough resources to satisfy every human's needs and wants, and we could easily pare down the amount of hours we work without really skipping a beat. The problem is that access to these resources is inherently dictated by capitalists who have no incentive to just give to the poorest among us. In fact, a highly stratified hierarchy of people who have it all and people who are dying because they've been barred from access to basic necessities as a result of the folks at top having it all is literally the point.
The pandemic didn't prove that no changes are to be made if we lower consumption. It actually proved the opposite- those who operated with communal, non-capitalist modes of thinking actually increased their chances of survival and inevitably saved the lives of others. Countries that had more robust welfare systems where you didn't have to continue working also had lower rates of infection. Had we all operated like the selfish capitalists demanding we "open back up," the numbers would've been worse. It also proved that capitalism- the so called "greatest we can ever do"- can completely fucking collapse under the power of a bat with a cold, that maybe organizing your society to only remain stable if people are forced to sacrifice their time and bodies for you doing menial labor isn't a good idea in the face of something like a pandemic, a phenomenon that's only going to get worse with climate change. Get ready for more capitalists to die on ventilators in droves when, not if, the next pandemic hits.

Quote
It may not be possible, but, at least we'll all die trying i guess.
I'm glad you're willing to sacrifice billions under the insistence that capitalism has to remain in place.
Quote
I don't want to continue with capitalism, my simple argument is whatever system replaces it cannot rely on lower consumption.
It's literally we decrease consumption or we allow billions to die. There isn't an alternative.
So then why did capitalism only arise within the last few centuries of our hundred thousand year existence? Do you think capitalism is natural?
Quote
But no one's arguing that. They're arguing that changing the system doesn't address the core problem which is human greed exploiting the system, whatever the system, for the benefit of the few.
If you change the conditions in which people are allowed to live and operate in, you're able to temper the ability for capitalism to continue wrecking havoc on the planet. Even pro-capitalism people believe that, even though I disagree with their methods. "Tax the billionaires more and everything will be fine! Sweden does it!"

So even they're not addressing human nature either. They're in favor of putting in systemic roadblocks to prevent the capitalists who by everyone's admittance are pieces of shit from ruining everything. But when people are in favor of bigger roadblocks, suddenly we have to start trying to change human nature. Kinda weird.

This is also fundamentally just a rewritten naturalist argument, by the way. "If you don't eliminate human greed, then you can't make society better" aka "capitalism is the best we can do because it leans into humans' nature to be greedy."
Empires don't last forever, but only one ideological empire in our millennia of existence is- once again- literally rendering the fucking planet uninhabitable.

My argument is we should maybe try something- anything- else before millions, potentially billions of us, die, especially since we have the means to organize society however we choose.
She should see what the Soviets and China did to their "collectively owned" natural resources like destroying million year old lakes in a matter of years and getting nothing out of it. She doesn't even care about the millions, mostly non-white, who have been deliberately killed by trying something, anything, else to organize society however "we" choose.

Ah yes, because capitalism has been great at mitigating human misery. How did that pandemic turn out again for the world? How many times have we had recessions and depressions that have starved people? How many people die from lack of access to basic necessities still, or just from the way capitalism has organized our infrastructure? And the Global South; I'm sure they've definitely been enjoying the riches of their exploitation since the colonists got off the boats. Surely.

Like, white Americans being able to buy graphics cards in the Global North isn't a meaningful metric of global human misery or happiness.
Diversity in human experience is not directly proportional to making absolutely sure that the powerful own our labor and thus our finite lives, and I'm not sure where the correlation is even coming from. Like, what do you think it has been like across African, Indigenous, and Asian cultures across millennia before capitalism? They were all wearing the same clothes, doing the same shit, never creating, never aspiring, never having meaningful human connections and experiences?

Perhaps we shouldn't base sweeping generalisations about human nature, and thus the sociopolitical systems that dictate human well being, on anecdotal observations and base assumptions that are carried without questioning.

That's kind of the insidiousness if capitalism. People assume it's natural without any proof of so.

Comfortable lifestyles can be maintained outside of capitalism, and with a significant reduction of capitalism. We already know we produce a lot of shit that ends up going to waste, and we know that with automation we could all be working a lot less. But if your definition of comfort means we have to keep burning the planet and enslaving the Global South because "Well, wanting five Nintendo Switches is imperative to the human condition and if I can't have that, it's inevitably back to the Iron Curtain," then you are ultimately arguing for capitalism regardless of how much you try to convince me you're really not for it.
Quote from: Thordinson
Do you think Capitaism becoming the dominant economic system came without [death and chaos]?
The idea that the Europeans held the rest of the world hostage at the wrong end of disease blankets and gun barrels and forced capitalism into play is just critical race theory. Capitalism came about with robust debate and nice smiles.
Quote
I wonder if those who hate capitalism so much think feudalism was better?
Capitalism is essentially just feudalism 2.0 so, no, not really.
You've been adamant that capitalism has brought about a variance in human experience that can't be maintained in other systems. But all capitalism is is an socioeconomic model by which a few powerful people own our labor. I'm saying you don't need to have your labor owned by the powerful (aka capitalism) to achieve diverse human experiences. So this argument doesn't make a whole bunch of sense.

That is an excessively colonialist mindset but the questions stand. Do you think, even now, the Indigenous, African, and Asian cultures that maintain traditions that are not borne from capitalism are not diverse? Do you think people before capitalism never built cities, never had preventative healthcare and disease innoculation, didn't have science, math, and art, and never had dreams, myths, and heroes? You think humans just sat around doing nothing until white Europeans showed them the light with enslavement, genocide, and the Industrial Revolution?

My example is not saying that everyone would be barred from having more than one Switch. My example is saying that people wanting excess to the point of harming others is not a human experience I have to respect. We can still have Switches, but the nature of non-capitalist modes of living, where we temper exploitation of others and stop raping the planet for all she's worth, means there will be less Switches in general. But less Switches in general, as well, is not a harbinger of human misery. Again, we know we can cut back. It is a false dichotomy that says that cutting back means your life will suffer, and thus in order for life to not suffer, you must continue consuming more and more, with no end cap in sight.
I am not satisified with a system where only the west gets the benefits of technological advancement while other portions of the Earth don't have equal access because they're the ones propping up our technological advancement through exploitation, slavery, and genocide. We should be aiming for a system that ensures everyone has what they need and can reasonably want without leading back into a system where just about half of the Earth is fucked.

I can tell you right now poverty is not a result of laziness. It's a result of capitalism suppressing access to resources so that certain segments of the population literally will never be able to climb the social ladder and escape impoverishment, and this is by design.

Ignoring the fact that what you're describing is the status quo now, again, we largely don't have scarcity of necessities. America can not only feed, cloth, and house everyone in the country, but it could physically take in several millions more and do the same. The reason we have scarcity is because some folks have decided that stratifying access to basic needs is a good idea for the human species because it props up a very few powerful people, who then go on to lie to us that we can all stack ourselves at the top of the pyramid too if we "work hard enough" and "follow our dreams" and all that fucking bullshit.
Quote
Some post reads like passages taken out from the 1984 novel.
Ah yes, the anti-capitalist is taking passages from 1984.
Quote
Orwell was a socialist but I'd argue 1984 is anti authoritarian more than forwarding any economic ideals.
1984 is indeed anti-authoritarian because it's basically a rebuke of Nazi Germany and Russia and didn't really talk economics, but it's also in general just against impregnable concentrations of power (good thing we're not living under a system where power is concentrated at the top for no reason amirite?!), because they're unjustifiable and senseless. The ending makes that pretty clear. Regardless, anyone can read my posts in this thread and-assuming they've actually read the book- know my views are incompatible with Oceania's. It was a dumb remark.
Quote from: Nepenthe,https://www.resetera.com/threads/%E2%80%9Cfuck-capitalism%E2%80%9D-ok-cool-i-agree-too-but-what-are-the-legitimate-alternatives-that-wouldn%E2%80%99t-ruin-the-world-more-than-it-already-is.655698/post-96778236
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I agree with you. The trick is, if we build a system where everyone has what they need and reasonably want, this will result in more overall resource usage than we have now.
No it won't. You're assuming that people are going without because there isn't enough. I'm telling you there is enough. It just doesn't get to everyone because the arbiters of society decided that it's better to stratify access to resources.

For large-scale sweeping reforms to happen that magically temper the worst ills of capitalism from a western lens (again, I fundamentally disagree with capitalism because the exploitation of the worst off is baked in, and you cannot get around it), you need either A.) for billionaires and the politicians they own to agree to those reforms or B.) Violence to occur.

A is laughable because the billionaires and politicians have no reason to stop the gravy train, and B is laughable because people who are pro-capitalism aren't actually willing to get their hands dirty for anything. Why would they; they have the system they want.
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Nah, a wealthy few hogging resources and grinding up the masses is what keeps humanity back and curbs its progress. It actively makes humanity worse and more vile, and is why this is all we have reached at this point in time.
Yep. How many brilliant people have died because of capitalism and colonialism before they could fully contribute to their communities and to the world? The amount of culture, knowledge, and potential for progress that's been deliberately wiped off the map because of the systems we have in play now has to be immeasurable.

(It's also weird that- again- people keep equating happiness and fulfillment with capitalism. Like, stop doing that. That's why that PS5 you snagged still hasn't made you any real life friends.)
I'm not necessarily advocating for socialism as the end goal here, although it would be a better system than capitalism for the workers (because I don't think writing a different name on the deed to the factory makes the factory more environmentally and morally sound, but you know).

But as is hinted at in the parenthetical, socialism is a system where the government or the social commons own the means of production instead of private individuals. So like, Tesla would still exist, but instead of being owned by Elon fucking Musk it'd be owned by the public instead. The benefits to this are that, theoretically, Tesla workers under socialism profit more off their than they did under than capitalism and are more interested in the company's well-being and day-to-day operations because they wouldn't be forced to send significant chunks of their true wages up towards the fucking apartheid baby that owns the company under the guise of "profit" that he alone "earned." It would also necessitate the easier access to healthcare, because now that the libelous sexual predator who owns Tesla now can't dangle healthcare benefits above his workers' heads as essentially a threat, and indeed no one else could, well that shit would fall to the government as well.

Things like free higher education, maternity/paternity leave, etc. aren't necessarily "socialist" policies. They can exist in a capitalist system. Capitalists just hate these things because they feel entitled to all of the money, and they're not getting all of the money if they're having to subsidize college or if their child-bearing workers have the gall to want to leave and take care of their children. Fuck that shit. Good things for the commons do not translate into power for our oligarchs.
That wasn't my assertion anywhere in this thread. My assertion was that we physically have enough stuff to feed, cloth, and house everyone, and the reasons we don't are for logistical, structural, and philosophical reasons related to capitalism. This was specifically in response to that poster's presumed assertions that we have scarcity because the stuff we need to prevent scarcity doesn't actually exist. Essentially, homeboy said "people go hungry because we don't produce enough food." I responded "We actually produce enough food for everyone to eat; it just doesn't get to everyone who needs it." That's not an assertion about how getting the food to anyone would affecting the climate. So you're saying my rebuttal to that assertion means that I believe we can raise all 8 billion people to have a middle class American standard of living with a zero carbon footprint somehow, even though I've been very clear in this thread and others that I just don't fundamentally agree with a US/EU standard of living anyway considering what we know it's doing to the planet, and that we should indeed cut back significantly everywhere or risk runaway climate change where billions die.
The only time I ever mentioned a baseline standard of living is when people were assuming that infinite greed is just innate human nature, when instead we know that studies out there say that human happiness caps out at around $75k, or what this calculator says would be $40/hr for a basic 8 hour/5 day week. But you're asking these questions under an assumption that, once again, I think we should raise everyone to a US/EU standard of living under capitalism and that this can definitely be done with a zero or negative carbon footprint or such nonsense I never said. That's impossible, and I've been clear that's impossible because the point of capitalism has always been to concentrate access to resources at the top, and its rampant industrial expansion is the reason the climate is worsening.

We already do very expensive R&D through the government as demonstrated by a shitload of scientific and medical research and innovation we're privy to. Finding the money would not necessarily be the problem if there was a demand- civilian side or state side- for electric cars, especially if we had a government that was prone to doing what was best for the people and the planet versus what is best for shareholders.
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I can’t imagine socialism going well here with the people we have in power or the type of people who will be in power.
Well, the point of changing the system would be to make sure the people who are in charge of the system aren't in charge anymore. So before we can attempt speedrunning socialism into ruin we'd have to get rid of the capitalists first.
Violence is inevitable in any change of the status quo. Capitalism did not just spring up immediately and peacefully. It was brutally forced on the Europeans who were mucking about with it who in turn brutally forced it upon the rest of the world, and it took centuries of fuck-ups and dealing with worse standards to "fix it." Like, remember child laborers, no weekends, robber barons, the Transatlantic Slave trade, all that fun jazz? Capitalism is inherently soaked in bloodshed and yet there's plenty of folks extolling its virtues regardless.
Capitalism was not a concrete idea when it was originally constructed across time and many philosophers who engaged with it either. Like, Adam Smith specifically advocated for absolutely minimal government interference in market economies, and that if everyone is allowed to fend for themselves then you would achieve this sprawling utopia of equality. Anyone person of color holding down a menial 9 to 5 knows that shit is fundamentally wrong on the surface lol.

So asking for a fully-formed alternative wherein you know exactly how you are going to get a new refrigerator in a post-capitalist society, from the construction to delivery to your doorway, is a fool's errand. You are never going to get that answer, but more importantly it shouldn't be expected for anyone to provide it, especially when pro-capitalist folks can't even agree on basic terms of engagement such as to what extent, if any, should we tax the rich today.

I will say though that I agree that liberals and leftists in general need to be better orators and storytellers, and should be able to boil down dense theory to more easily talk with laymen.
As an aside, Adam Smith (like Hayek) argued for social welfare programs especially universal ones. (Hayek argues for universal health insurance for example. Smith primarily for public education which didn't exist at the time.) The ideal is unlimited free trade, neither argued humanity has reached the ideal point yet as Nepenthe does.

Lack of access to necessities is not exclusive to capitalism, true, but it is inherent in its design. Capitalists have no reason to provide basic livability for everyone if it means getting in the way of their access to as much capital as possible, especially since people are not willing to physically fight for a higher baseline standard for the poorest among us.
I haven't done a lot of reading on it yet, but I do vibe with the true anti-work movement (not the Reddit shit where people just complain about the state of their job) which ties back into another poster's mentioning of degrowth. We waste a lot of time of our finite lives absolutely struggling every day to keep afloat when frankly I like to imagine the world would be much better if we were more encouraged to pursue what we're good at and passionate about.
I don't know what to tell you other than there's no reason to think like this because we have expressed more egalitarian ways of thinking and living all throughout our history.

And once again, no one can even provide a meta study that says that humans are innately and scientifically incapable of working together to achieve better outcomes for more people, which is weird, don't you think? Such a conclusion would be one of the few scientific advancements capitalists would be lining up to fund from their own pockets. "Objective proof that wage slavery is the natural order of things and I belong on top exploiting every living thing I can get my hands on? Yes please."

Subscribing to capitalist realism is entirely a conscious choice.
She seems to rule out people willingly working for others because they personally benefit as "working together to achieve better outcomes for more people" however. To quote a social welfare advocate: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages"

A lot of problems are difficult to solve. But problems nonetheless have solutions and measures of mitigation that we can reach over time, otherwise we wouldn't really call them problems. The better phrase would be "facts of life", but if no one who is pro-capitalism is able to provide proof that capitalism is scientifically a natural state of humanity, then it makes no sense to treat it as a biological reality. Capitalism is a economic and political system that we arbitrarily designed. That means we can also get rid of it, provided we understand that doing so is possible regardless of how awful we believe humanity to be.
Well again, one of the problems I have with socialism is like you said- it's basically capitalism without capitalists. Most people are beholden to growthism and the idea that we need to produce just to produce, so I don't think you're going to get a lot of socialist fantasy that is significantly different from stories of a capitalistic status quo. I also did agree that leftist needs to get better at storytelling and plain language, and allow ourselves to be imaginative rather than sticking within circles that espouse theory as jargon. I actually did start briefly making a personal kind of world-building document for myself about what I would imagine a "post capitalist" society to be, both to have some sort of idea to pitch to people and work towards tangibly in the real world, and as a vehicle to read and learn more about alternative ways and philosophies of living. In many ways, it is like a lot of children's cartoons for the 80s in that it is primarily communal. My basic ideas were as follows:

You don't have a menial job to go to at a certain time anymore, working for a boss, although you are expected to reasonably pitch in towards the maintenance of the utilities and resources you want to access within your community. Ex. You take from a public garden then you better make sure you're putting back what you took for the next person who comes along somehow, either through time spent cultivating it or providing resources for its maintenance. Libraries of the commons would also be a more fundamental public service where you can have access to the tools and items you may need without having to necessarily go and buy them; people donate usable but unwanted "things" (cookware, furniture, lawn equipment, clothing, etc.) and you rent this like you would a book at a library, and bring it back when you're done. Art and culture would still be valuable pursuits too, and indeed, freer expressions of self and culture would be encouraged: city and park demonstrations, more volunteer upkeep of buildings, more public paintings and graffiti, street music, etc. People should be encouraged to be creative and have fun with others. Housing would be more mixed; closer quarters where most amenities (bars and restaurants, clubs, pharmacies, grocery stores, etc.) are within walking or biking distance. And so long as a spot or joint is free and fits your living needs, you can claim it as your home so long as you promise to abide by whatever community and/or local ordinances exist there. Political organization would be expressed through a consensus based form of representation. Everyone is encouraged to participate in local meetings to address grievances, and goals and demands are reached through discussion and consensus and delivered to a higher presiding body by a representative who is voted on by the chosen body. This representative would ideally not always be the same person to temper the inclination of power-tripping. Also, we're fucking off of fossil fuels permanently and our public transporation is robust and strong. Solarpunk reality baby.

I didn't write much more than that, but that was my starting idea for a little fantasy world. You wake up, get yourself together, and essentially go about your day however you choose without the threat of coercive labor forcing you to do shit you don't really want to do. You wanna hang at the local bar with your friends, take a trip into the wilderness, etc. then go for it. Be merry. If you wish to use a public service in society, get groceries and supplies, or anything else, it is simply mandated that you maintain and use it responsibly and return it back for the rest of the community to use too. It's not too horrible, is it?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 08:57:48 PM by benjipwns »

HaughtyFrank

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34017 on: November 19, 2022, 09:04:42 PM »
I'm starting to get the idea the Nepenthe is neither a historian nor an economist

Boredfrom

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34018 on: November 19, 2022, 09:28:04 PM »
Quote from: BobsReset
I wonder if there's a way I/ we can cause twitter to cost more money to run. I know it's small fry but it's tempting to write a python script which will post musk insults all day. Like if a bunch of people used the twitter APIs and just spammed posts I wonder if that would cause a cost.

Feels like it would be great for the userbase to rebel somehow - leaving a python script running whenever my computer is on wouldn't cost me anything but if enough people did it and enough anti musk posts ended up going up - it might cause twitter to drain more out of elons bank account

I wouldn't normally be like this - but unbanning trump could have untold impacts on all of our future and it feels like we ought to be able to fight back - and simply not using the site just gives it over to the types of people who will use it to cause untold damage

https://www.resetera.com/threads/elon-musk-twitter-drama-ot-let’s-keep-it-here-parody-🔵-official-ꕤ-up-reinstates-2020-election-loser-trump.649272/page-288#post-96827646

Slacktivism, ahoy.

HaughtyFrank

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Re: Other Forums Containment Thread
« Reply #34019 on: November 19, 2022, 09:34:19 PM »
A bot on Twitter that makes tweets? Hah, say goodbye to your billions Musk  :success