Author Topic: star trek  (Read 334611 times)

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Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1140 on: January 08, 2018, 02:32:20 PM »
Also season 7 of TNG sucks balls. Godspeed.
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Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1141 on: January 08, 2018, 02:46:51 PM »
Opinions are fun and all because we all get to share them and have one and debate and despite what people think there is no wrong answer on that kind of stuff.

Lots of hardcore forum types love Deep Space Nine. I've never liked that show remotely as much as certain segments of trek fandom do. I understand why they like it.

But it never had that effect on me. Which is not to say I hate it or anything. I just don't generally want to go back and watch episodes of it relative to other shows.

Deep Space Nine also reminds me a lot of Babylon 5 for whatever reason, and I much prefer Babylon 5 so that doesn't help either.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 02:51:58 PM by Stoney Mason »

D3RANG3D

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1142 on: January 08, 2018, 03:22:25 PM »
So when are they going to put Discovery, on netflix or hulu?

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1143 on: January 08, 2018, 03:45:24 PM »
So when are they going to put Discovery, on netflix or hulu?

Not until the CBS streaming platform fails. I mean its an attempt to sell the CBS streaming platform in the US at least.


It is on Netflix in a lot of countries outside the US.

https://www.inverse.com/article/36006-star-trek-discovery-cbs-all-access-stream-netflix

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1144 on: January 08, 2018, 06:40:13 PM »
 Yeah, it’s on Netflix here in Japan as well. It’s the main reason I picked up Netflix, to be honest.

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1145 on: January 08, 2018, 11:35:13 PM »
Deep Space Nine also reminds me a lot of Babylon 5 for whatever reason, and I much prefer Babylon 5 so that doesn't help either.
why not both dot gif

the flame wars over those in the day :lawd

JMS still sucks despite Babylon 5, he also gave credence to the STAR TREK RIPPED ME OFF argument even though the production timelines would have made it impossible and the shows were pretty different once you got past the SPACE STATION core

DS9's entire structural premise as pitched as a new way of Trek was "what if you can't warp away at the end of the week? and what if the majority of characters were not Federation officers?"; which is why I sometimes set it off as different because some people don't want to explore the Trek universe in that way... which is part of what made reading your and chrono's recent escapades into ENT interesting because of how over its four seasons it did most every kind of "Trek on a ship" you can do

its inspirational premise of Bajor/Maquis/Cardassians (which was put into TNG to launch DS9...Kira was originally Ro) they slowly drifted from in part because the writers were tired of it being compared to Israel/Palestine (because it didn't make any sense for the Cardassian Occupation to be framed that way, the entire storyline is more obviously inspired by the fall of the Soviet Union especially with The Maquis factored in) and in part because the suits said MORE KLINGONS! MORE SPACE BATTLES! LESS RELIGION! LESS POLITICS UNLESS IT ABOUT WAR WITH KLINGONS! (before they (especially Berman) came back later and said "WHY SO MUCH WAR? CAN'T WE END THIS DOMINION STORYLINE IN A TWO-PARTER OR SOMETHING?!?" even though the Dominion storyline wound up doing as much development for the Klingons and Romulans as TNG had)

Hot Slice

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1146 on: January 08, 2018, 11:47:11 PM »
So when are they going to put Discovery, on netflix or hulu?
The real question is, when will DSC be a product and not a service? I want to be able to buy. A license to the season on iTunes or BDs eventually.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: star trek
« Reply #1147 on: January 08, 2018, 11:49:08 PM »
even though the Dominion storyline wound up doing as much development for the Klingons and Romulans as TNG had)

More imo. At least for the Romulans.
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Momo

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1148 on: January 09, 2018, 12:00:14 AM »
DS9 did most for the Ferengi imo


benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1149 on: January 09, 2018, 12:08:12 AM »
my favorite thing that DS9 added for the Ferengi was their hilarious useless gigantic bureaucracy and all the stupid rituals

actually now that i sit here and think about it for a minute, they sorta used the Ferengi's whole culture to mock the nonsensical rigidity that Trek had inserted into areas of Cardassian and Klingon culture :ohhh

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1150 on: January 09, 2018, 12:09:17 AM »
IMO that's not even an opinion, Momo. That's a fact. Generations Ferengi were fucking embarrassing.
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Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1151 on: January 09, 2018, 12:13:25 AM »
DS9 has so many cool races fully fleshed out. Ferengi, Cardassians, Bajorans, that fucking yeerk like race that Dax is a part of (Trills), Klingons, Jem'hadar, the Founders, Romulans, even humanity itself. Everyone gets a nice slice of development in DS9. I loved every episode of that show besides 2-3 eps. I wish there were a Best Quotes video for DS9 like there is for The Wire. Easily one of my favorite television series'.
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Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1152 on: January 09, 2018, 12:25:14 AM »
Deep Space Nine also reminds me a lot of Babylon 5 for whatever reason, and I much prefer Babylon 5 so that doesn't help either.
why not both dot gif

the flame wars over those in the day :lawd

True. I definitely don't want to present it as a false dilemma like you must choose between the two. And I didn't watch either when they originally aired. Well that's almost true. I watched half of like DS9 back when it originally aired but bailed on it as I just didn't enjoy it. I never watched Babylon 5 when it originally aired. I finished up both in within the last 8 years or so.

And you may absolutely have something in that my bias with Trek is that I don't necessarily favor a Trek that is mainly rooted in one spot by a space station with one specific conflict defining the show. I probably do like the trek shows that give me a ship to warp around the galaxy and do different adventures every week.

I do think Deep Space Nine improves in the later seasons especially the final stretch and certain things like how ferengi were treated as less of a joke than in TNG. It's just when I think of Deep Space I flash to so many episodes like Jake and Benjamin playing baseball or something that just made me groan.

There are just a healthy number of Deep Space Nine episodes that are boring for me. It just never lit a spark in my imagination the way some trek shows do or Babylon 5 did.

I respect Ron Moore a lot. I just think I like his work post Deep Space Nine like BSG.

One day I'll rewatch it and perhaps form a slightly different opinion.

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1153 on: January 09, 2018, 12:29:39 AM »
Jake and Benjamin don't really play baseball together in any episode besides the season 7 baseball episode (which is amazing). They do go to the holosuites to watch games a lot though but it's really never shown. At most, the majority of the series, you have Sisko's baseball on his desk. They spend more time at his dad's restaurant helping out than they ever do playing baseball together in terms of actual screen time. You might be thinking of false memories of what you perceive DS9 to be more than what it actually is. Just a thought.

Early ds9 gets too much flack.

Season 1 is really good for a season 1 Trek and season 2 is imo one of the best seasons in Star Trek.
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Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1154 on: January 09, 2018, 12:40:41 AM »
Me saying them playing baseball is me meaning them interacting during boring shit. The same way I have images of lounge singers on the show or other boring stuff. I'm not specifically talking in the sense of episode 212 and a name. I just meant that as a general vague memory of the show. I mean it was 20 years ago we are talking about since I've seen those early season episodes.

There is a lot of Deep Space Nine that is boring for me. I could go through and look through the early episodes on imdb and tell you which ones I think are boring for a few seasons in but that's ultimately what I mean. It's why I stopped watching.

Which is not to say that's the only opinion to be had on early Deep Space Nine. I'll just say I didn't care for it. If I rewatch it again and suddenly think its better than I remember then cool. But I stopped watching because I didn't care much for what I was seeing at the time.

It's better in later seasons was certainly my opinion when I picked it back up later. Thought still not close to being my favorite trek.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 12:47:47 AM by Stoney Mason »

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1155 on: January 09, 2018, 12:50:18 AM »
I understand some people aren't big on certain kinds of DS9 episodes, whether it be Ferengi episodes, or Bajoran lore episodes. I personally loved those, especially the Bajor ones. I think the Bajorans are the most fascinating race in Trek history, even more so than the Klingons. They're full of contradictions and depth.
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benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1156 on: January 09, 2018, 12:53:09 AM »
A lot of those dumb DS9 episodes later on were how they paid for the wars literally, like the baseball episode against the Vulcans, or the casino heist on the holodeck, etc..

And the early on bad DS9 episodes seem to feel more of a trying to figure out the purpose of the show, something other Treks never needed because the purpose was the ship's journey. Even the good ones or semi-decent ideas fall apart because they aren't quite sure where to take the idea. The Dominion wound up giving them that purpose and something to center everything around, the Dominion threat on the other side of the wormhole. They tied Sisko's role as Emissary and the Prophets to it, the Cardassians to it, they brought in the Klingons using it, etc.

A lot of those early Gamma Quadrant race episodes aren't much better than Voyager and TNG's equivalent "new race of the week" stuff early in their runs.

Voyager had a similar issue except that it went the wrong direction in leaning on first the Kazon and then the Borg. With the Hirogen for half a season. Rather than focusing on what was the true constant in their series, and what TOS/TNG did, the crew. Especially the fact that half of it were Maquis soldiers or revealed as spies/murderers. I'm still beyond baffled that they never did a mutiny episode or even the semblance of a mutiny plotline. Other than Tuvok's holodeck program, in like the last season or whenever.

DS9 had a really big advantage that the other Trek's never did of building up a HUGE cast of recurring characters that no other Trek could do and bringing them on easily. Garak most prominently. But Nog, Rom, Dukat, Weyoun, Martok, Damar, Keiko, Kasidy, Admiral Ross, Eddington, Gowron, Kai Winn and the other Bajorian politicans/religious figures, etc. None of those were regular cast members (Quark was) but each one appeared in so many episodes many of them feel like members of the main cast even if just for a season or two like Eddington or Ross.

A show like Voyager had the recurring cast of...Naomi Wildman. For 17 episodes. Half as many as Garak alone. Even Q only appeared 8 times on TNG!

Shran appeared 11 times on ENT and was going to become a regular if it had a fifth season. But he was going to have become a crew member to justify it, even though many of those DS9 recurring characters like Nog or Garak were on DS9 they didn't have to be in order to show up for an episode as Dukat or Weyoun or Martok show. As they could literally come to DS9 for the episode.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1157 on: January 09, 2018, 12:54:33 AM »
I think its cool that everybody has their favorite trek and it shouldn't be the same. I like that Deep Space Nine has a dedicated crew that loves that show passionately.

Those fans might burn me out a little ;) so I tend to throw some snark their way.

but I think its cool that the universe is broad enough to support fans of each show.

Outside of Voyager Fans. Fuck them.

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Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1158 on: January 09, 2018, 12:56:31 AM »
 :preach TREK :preach
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seagrams hotsauce

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1159 on: January 09, 2018, 11:07:06 AM »
It's hard to compare TNG and DS9 since they're such different shows from a few fundamental points.

1. The motivation of the crew of the Enterprise is basically go explore the universe, acquire knowledge and lend a helping hand when appropriate. You kinda find out some of the characters individual motives for joining the crew, but the first episode starts out with them getting derailed on the way to a trade station, and ends with Picard going "lets go sightseeing 'round the universe y'all!" Everyone seems real chummy and the Enterprise itself seems like a pretty cushy ship with some nice digs and decent amount of amenities. DS9 introduces Sisqo by killing his wife, thrusting him into single fatherhood, putting him in charge of a fucked up space station at the center of a race war where everything is broken, and making him a deity to a bunch of weirdos he's never met before. Right out of the gate, there's a different weight to the shows.

2. After a while, there's a kind of big difference in the tone of the acting of each show. There are some overwrought moments in TNG, but the later parts of DS9 are filled with semi-campy scenery-chewing by Sisko, Dukat, Winn, and Garak. That isn't really a criticism on my behalf, cuz I really like a lot of those scenes, especially ones with Dukat and Odo. But the shows feel a lot different, especially towards the end in that regard. There's some goofy stuff like Picard getting mad and yelling at a mute, distinguished mentally-challenged version of himself for an hour in TNG, but nothing quite as over the top as shit like the Fire Caves scene at the end of DS9. Bonkers, almost silly, and thoroughly enjoyable.

3. The structure of each show is a lot different. Apart from a few non-consequential storylines and the Borg stuff, there isn't a lot a through-line for TNG. Crusher and Picard occasionally talk about their personal history, Troi and Riker flirt and probably fuck a lot off screen, Geordi stays keeping his dick dry, but for the most part interpersonal relationship between characters aren't the main focus of the show. It's mostly them bouncing around from planet to planet, getting in single-episode adventures that usually ask and answer a question or otherwise lead to an easily summarizable moral. DS9 focuses a lot more closely on the relationships between characters from the start, and keeps it up the whole way through, but besides that the actual story structure changes a lot too - being in a central, static location let the show explore stuff like how tensions between the Cardassians and Bejorans played out and how Sisko handles being an Emissary to a group of people he's almost completely unfamiliar with. From a purely narrative perspective, too, DS9 had a lot less 'contained' stories than TNG, to the point where the end run of the show is like a seven episode arc about The Dominion War. I like that stuff, but towards the end I found the density of it a little overbearing and wouldn't have minded if they threw a story of the week episode or two in there to break it up.

In the end they're both really good, but TNG edges out DS9 for me personally. I think if I did a tally I'd find TNG probably has more 'bad' episodes, but in general I think it has higher highs and lower lows than DS9 and I prefer the lack of constraints and sense of exploration afforded to the crew of the Enterprise


seagrams hotsauce

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1160 on: January 09, 2018, 11:09:58 AM »
And to think, the next time I touch a woman, she'll have no idea that the fingers running through her hair have also recently committed the heinous act of nerdery that is typing up an essay length carepost about a Star Trek on an internet message board  :cody

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1161 on: January 09, 2018, 11:10:07 AM »
"There's some goofy stuff like Picard getting mad and yelling at a mute, distinguished mentally-challenged version of himself for an hour in TNG, but nothing quite as over the top as shit like the Fire Caves scene at the end of DS9. Bonkers, almost silly, and thoroughly enjoyable. "

Barbara Crusher. Fucked. A. Space. Ghost.
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seagrams hotsauce

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1162 on: January 09, 2018, 11:14:19 AM »
Uh sure, but I'm talking about the acting specifically. DS9 doesn't have anything as ungrounded as Data getting fucked with by Mark Twain, but the word 'subtle' is not in Avery Brooks' acting vocabulary

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1163 on: January 09, 2018, 11:21:36 AM »
Ah. I know what you mean. He can't seem to do a dramatic scene without sloWLY RAISING HIS VOICE LIKE THIS.

As for me. I have a complicated relationship with TNG. In my heart of hearts, I love it. But I find the lack of interpersonal character drama, relationships, and chemistry to get a bit old by the end of its run. I think it works for 6 or so season but by 7 it's just kinda running on fumes. Like, the show keeps trying to convince us of Ryker and Troi's romantic escapades but they have literally zero chemistry and this is an OLD relationship we're supposed to buy into and it won't stop showing up. It's great for that adventure of the week sci-fi storytelling that I love. But for my tastes it also lacks the more deep sci-fi storytelling like truly questioning ones beliefs and putting them to the test. I think DS9 does this better. As much as DS9's acting would be over dramatic at times, I prefer the more grounded situations in the show than the crazy antics that happen in TNG. Lord knows I cannot take another single Data Sherlock Holmes episode.

So I love TNG, I love its cheese cake, and I love its spirit of adventure. I love its conceit. I love the premise. But for me it's best taken in gulps. I definitely think TNG has far more "bad" episodes than DS9 and that impacts how I view the series, but in the end I view them both as brother and sister series: they're two shows that are so categorically different that they seem to help each other improve. Without TNG, it's hard to come to appreciate some of the hard rough edgeness that happens in DS9. But without the hardness of DS9, it's harder to appreciate the utopia that we come to love on the other side of the quadrant.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 11:27:51 AM by Cindi Mayweather »
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seagrams hotsauce

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1164 on: January 09, 2018, 11:46:22 AM »
I hear you, they're kind of vanilla and chocolate companion series, complementary and I get why people prefer one of the other.

Voyager is the strawberry of the three - not terrible, per se, but vastly inferior to the other two and understandably underconsumed

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1165 on: January 09, 2018, 11:49:22 AM »
Don't you DARE compare Voyager to strawberry ice cream DA GAWD
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Momo

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1166 on: January 09, 2018, 02:20:44 PM »
Rum and Raisin > Choc Mint > Blueberry Cheesecake >>>> *

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1167 on: January 09, 2018, 02:41:57 PM »
Surprisingly when you meet people in real life Voyager has a lot more fans than you would expect. I think its because it attracted a younger demo and many of those people are now entering older ages. I know voyager is also popular on nextflix streaming.








Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1168 on: January 09, 2018, 04:25:39 PM »
My dad loves Voyager.
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Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1169 on: January 09, 2018, 05:17:19 PM »
deleted
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 10:40:06 PM by Cindi Mayweather »
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chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1170 on: January 12, 2018, 04:59:48 AM »
I am still trying to work my way into DS9 — I don't know why, it just doesn't resonate with me. It's difficult, coming off from the final season of Enterprise, which I enjoyed so much.

Watching Discovery now, just finished Lethe, gotta catch up with the rest of you dudes. Lorca appears to have some stability issues.

Treats:
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D3RANG3D

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1171 on: January 12, 2018, 12:38:58 PM »
Watch the documentary called "The Captains" Avery Brooks is fucking out there.

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Still the best trek show/captain  :patel
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Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1172 on: January 12, 2018, 03:17:58 PM »
I am still trying to work my way into DS9 — I don't know why, it just doesn't resonate with me. It's difficult, coming off from the final season of Enterprise, which I enjoyed so much.

Watching Discovery now, just finished Lethe, gotta catch up with the rest of you dudes. Lorca appears to have some stability issues.

Treats:
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DS9 resonated with me from ep 1. Some people say it resonates with them later. IDK, keep watching. Season 2 is much better.
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nachobro

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1173 on: January 12, 2018, 03:19:07 PM »
DS9 starts slow but by the time you hit Season 2 it's in full swing and hits much better cause you got to know all the characters in S1

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1174 on: January 12, 2018, 06:05:37 PM »

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1175 on: January 14, 2018, 10:30:56 PM »
Good episode of Discovery. It's setup but the good kind of setup where shit happens and has consequences but still leaves many avenues open. Makes me excited for next week and the rest of the season.

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I was about to be mad when I thought they were going to prolong the Ash/Voq reveal to Burnham after his planet freakout but they just delayed it to the next scene which actually worked better dramatically.
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Momo

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1176 on: January 15, 2018, 10:03:58 AM »
S01E11 (last night's ep) - What a :zzz fest, everything is happening super predictably

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1177 on: January 17, 2018, 07:33:44 PM »

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1178 on: January 19, 2018, 11:00:05 PM »

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1179 on: January 20, 2018, 12:20:00 AM »
Jake's whole heading down his own path thing was interesting, considering to that point we'd been shown EVERYONE WANTS TO GROW UP TO BE STARFLEET for the most part, especially Wesley (Alexander barely existed in both series), and he was decidedly, not.

Nog obviously went that route, but for him it was a similar rejection of his cultures norms, though I thought they did him and Rom interesting too in that Rom was so opposed to Nog not following the Ferengi path, and in the end they both become engineers for Starfleet and Bajor respectively instead. Well, until the end for poor Rom. :lol

I liked that Nog and Rom both latched onto Chief O'Brien.

Tasty

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1180 on: January 20, 2018, 12:55:07 PM »
Chief O'Brien is the sassy gay den mother we all wish we had.

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1181 on: January 20, 2018, 03:22:49 PM »
DS9 is really special to me. In other Star Trek's they feel far removed from their culture. But here on DS9 is a black single father, who not only is in tune with the history of his people even hundreds of years later in a time of unparalleled achievement, but also respects and even embraces his own roots. There's a lot of reasons I connect with DS9 but that's one of the biggest.
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Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1182 on: January 22, 2018, 05:00:02 PM »
Interesting episode of discovery. Individually may be not amazing but nice pieces of world building and plot reveal to set up the table for the final stretch in the
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. I was confused about a couple of things but second rewatch of the episode gave me some understanding.

Pet Peeve. I wish the episode wasn't so short. Not because longer necessarily equates to better. The episode did what it needed to do. But it was like 37 minutes. Without the constraints of network TV and forced ad revenue I'd like to see episodes be a few minutes longer. Not for more to be revealed or anything but just in general for more scenes.
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And extra scene with burnham and georgiou
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just to have them interact with each other would be good stuff because both actors are very good. Let them stretch their legs with a few extra scenes. Same with other actors.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 06:45:28 PM by Stoney Mason »

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1183 on: January 25, 2018, 08:54:54 AM »
Sorry to continue DS9 love in but it's a good thread comparing TNG to DS9.

Topic: "Does anyone else feel like the TNG Ferengi and the DS9 Ferengi were like two totally different species?"

https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/7ssvp9/does_anyone_else_feel_like_the_tng_ferengi_and/

Great comment about TNG's willingness to be lazy in its writing and to use alien races to show humanities superiority.

Quote
I think this sort of thing made DS9 the most progressive Star Trek show. TNG would wax philosophical about how racism is bad, etc, but then depict every alien race as a really superficial monocultural stereotype of one or two character traits.

DS9 inverted this completely by breaking these molds in every way and doing the exact opposite of what you'd expect if you judged them by the stereotypes.

TNG, for all its high-mindedness, was frequently backwards, or maybe naive. Look at Worf. He's different. That's the basis of most of his storylines. To be fair they stress that 'different is okay' and that accepting difference is important. But honestly, Worf was raised by humans, he has all the education and experience a human has, but... he's different.

Imagine if this were a story about a black dude. Yeah, this black dude went to white people schools, and he got all this education and shit, but he's still a black dude and therefore different by nature. We should be accepting of his black dude ways, but let us never forget he's very different because he's a black dude.

TNG was almost there. The ideal of treating everyone as equals and respecting everyone's way of life is great. But they missed the mark by being accidentally racist, by creating these races and saying 'they behave like X or like X' which is, really, a very prejudiced thing to do.

Deep Space Nine is the most progressive show for these reasons. Feed DS9 a race that's supposed to be greedy capitalists, it spits out Ferengi Starfleet cadets, Rom selflessly joining a resistance and becoming a good father, and Quark time and time again choosing friendship and morality over profit (even if he never stops bitching about it).

Cardassians, they're all a race of tyrannical assholes, right? One of the finest episodes of Star Trek - ever - is in the first season of DS9, and everyone here knows what I'm talking about - it's Duet, and this 'typical Cardassian tyrant' turns out to be a low-level non-combatant that is so haunted by the atrocities of his government that he's willing to pretend to be basically Space Hitler just so he can be killed and let a lot of people rest easier knowing they beat the Bad Guy. And Dukat - the actual Hitler of the whole affair; he's broken and constantly seeks approval and forgiveness from everyone around him, leading, at one point, to him creating a cult just to gather around people who actually like him and don't think of him simply as a butcher and tyrant.

DS9 did this over and over, and it even inverted it with humans - Jake, son of the Sisko, he's gonna join Starfleet right, to please his old man? Nah. Jake's gonna be a journalist. Nog comes to Sisko, and it's squeaked out that he's doing this because he's afraid of being a loser like his father... so he's turning to Sisko, of course, as a father figure....

I'm rambling at this point, but yeah, you're right:

DS9 treated the Ferengi much more differently than TNG did.

Why; because TNG was high-minded with sci-fi concepts and used alien races to stand in for elements of humanity. Alien races were metaphors for human behavior.

But then DS9 came along... and it took those TNG stereotypes and broke the fuck out of them. It's Star Trek at its most progressive. And it wasn't even insulting about it... when you saw Nog breaking out of his greedy capitalism, you also saw him teaching Jake wisdom about the 'Great River of Commerce'. In TNG the Ferengi were portrayed as backward losers, but Nog brings wisdom that makes you respect other cultures and ways of thinking. TNG never would have done this, the Ferengi were merely representative of Bad Capitalistic Humans and that's where the nuance ends. DS9 basically unfolded and subverted racist ideas from TNG.

And that's why DS9 is really the best, smartest, most progressive, most thoughtful Star Trek.

TL:DR, TNG used foreign races as shortcuts for human nature. DS9 challenged the very idea of limiting someone based on their race. DS9 fucking rules and it's one of the best television shows ever made, and fuck anyone who disagrees.
IYKYK

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1184 on: January 28, 2018, 06:14:33 AM »
I'm caught up on Discovery.

e12 spoilers:
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Mirror Universe being handled more seriously than any other time we've seen it, and yet, and yet, they still managed to put the one Vulcan in a goddamned goatee. :lol

Giggled in surprise when "Captain" Tilly called on her Chief Engineer (Lorca) who dropped into a Scottish accent for the role. I love how many of the old sound effects are used throughout the show.

Holy shit at finally revealing Tyler's condition, but as much as they telegraphed that, it was a series of jabs leading to the haymaker coming in from Lorca. Holy goddamned shit.

And I'll also admit I covered my mouth like a 7-year-old and said "NO FUCKING WAY!" when Tyler ganked Dr. Hugh. Truly surprising.
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I'm really enjoying the show. There is so much intra-ship conflict that it sorta feels like not-star-trek, but I'm sure enjoying it.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1185 on: January 28, 2018, 10:01:26 PM »
Good episode. I don't follow any spoilers so generally most things are a surprise to me. I didn't realize this was the episode
spoiler (click to show/hide)
they would come back from the MU. I also didn't expect them to bring back Philippa
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Overall I would say the handled the
spoiler (click to show/hide)
MU
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stuff  better than I expected. I was skeptical going into it but I found myself compelled into it more than I expected. I didn't know about the
spoiler (click to show/hide)
mirror Lorca
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stuff so what I thought was just going to be random adventure in
spoiler (click to show/hide)
MU land
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was more connected than I thought which was nice.

The show has had a nice momentum the 2nd half leading from episode to episode.

Momo

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1186 on: January 29, 2018, 01:49:01 AM »
Only one thing surprised me (pleasantly so) but this is all pretty much happening as theorized. I've come around a bit and i generally enjoy the show now, I would more if it didn't have Star Trek on the tin though.

D3RANG3D

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1187 on: January 29, 2018, 06:50:07 PM »


 :whew

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1188 on: February 05, 2018, 12:53:08 AM »
Just finished Discovery episode. Slower set-up drama episode but I liked it. Sonequa Martin-Green really nails her scenes in general and in this episode in particular.

I wish there were two episodes left instead of one. I'm fine with the setup here for the finale but if that last episode is only like 45 minutes I feel like its going to be overly rushed. I'd prefer like a 2 in 1 episode or at least an especially long final episode. We'll see next week I guess.

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1189 on: February 05, 2018, 01:29:48 AM »
Just finished Discovery episode. Slower set-up drama episode but I liked it. Sonequa Martin-Green really nails her scenes in general and in this episode in particular.

I wish there were two episodes left instead of one. I'm fine with the setup here for the finale but if that last episode is only like 45 minutes I feel like its going to be overly rushed. I'd prefer like a 2 in 1 episode or at least an especially long final episode. We'll see next week I guess.

Since they're being nonstandard in length, what chance is there that it may be a 90-minute finale?

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1190 on: February 05, 2018, 01:44:54 AM »
Just finished Discovery episode. Slower set-up drama episode but I liked it. Sonequa Martin-Green really nails her scenes in general and in this episode in particular.

I wish there were two episodes left instead of one. I'm fine with the setup here for the finale but if that last episode is only like 45 minutes I feel like its going to be overly rushed. I'd prefer like a 2 in 1 episode or at least an especially long final episode. We'll see next week I guess.

Since they're being nonstandard in length, what chance is there that it may be a 90-minute finale?

I have a feeling its a low chance just because the first two episodes are really one episode but they still felt the need to carve it up into two episodes.

Plus the show airs on TV in certain markets of the world.

Hot Slice

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1191 on: February 05, 2018, 02:42:33 AM »
Yeah, if it were a special duration, we would know by now.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1192 on: February 07, 2018, 12:10:55 PM »

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1193 on: February 08, 2018, 02:33:08 AM »
:lol

That's kind of charming!

Also, I wonder how serious they were about possibly keeping Captain Jellico if Patrick Stewart had gone hardcore on salary negotiation. That would have been a very different style of Enterprise.

In some ways, it would have looked like Lorca's Discovery.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1194 on: February 11, 2018, 09:45:17 PM »
As far as the episode it was kinda a meh one unfortunately after a really good run of good episodes. As I feared there was too much for that final episode to resolve in 45 minutes. It should have been a two parter.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
One part to solve the Klingon crisis. And one episode to solve the post-crisis state of the world.
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By doing so much in one episode it feels rushed. You could have had the same solution and same post resolution state. But you needed more scenes and more space to convey that content. The same way the season begins with a 2 parter. The season finale should be planned as a two parter. Hopefully they pick up on that reality in future seasons.

As far as the season as a whole, I can say I really enjoyed it. The show just had an energy and a momentum with its serial nature that I really took too. There is nothing wrong with the standalone episodes of the past era of trek but it didn't lead to an urgency of watching for me. Trek was something that I watched and would enjoy but it was also kind of a whenever I got around to it kind of thing. Discovery for me became something that I looked forward to the entire week to see the story progress and that's a nice feel.

I like the cast. Burham, Lorca, Saru, Tilly, Stamets and Michelle Yeoh all did good stuff. The show definitely has a more action adventure trek than the TNG but I like that change. My favorite Trek was always TOS and there is something in the spirit of Discovery that feels more like TOS than TNG. So for me that is a good compelling thing. It feels like more of an adventure.

My complaints are a couple of things. I want to see them meet more aliens. One of the big parts of the appeal of Trek to me is going across the galaxy and meeting new races that present new dilemmas. I know that is slightly more tricky when a serial plot needs to connect episodes instead of it just being random adventures but that needs to happen more as we move forward.

Second complaint is that the show needs to have a few lower stake episodes where we see the crew in their downtime moments. It's one thing to see Saru, Burnham, Tilly, etc when stakes are high and near death is around every corner. But you also need those quiet moments and episodes where you see the crew during downtime. What are these people like during off-hours when they just live their lives? You need some of that to also balance out with the high tension stuff.

Final complaint is that we need to know some more random people on the ship. It can be bridge crew. It can be engineering people. It can be whoever. But you have to build out the ship world a bit. The ship has to feel like its full of people we occasionally run into and these are actual people with independent lives and interests.

That's all stuff they can improve on for me and will make the show deeper and richer. All that being said, I really enjoyed the first season. Can't wait for the show to come back with new stories. I really liked it. Good potential and relative to other trek first seasons I had more fun with this one compared to the other shows outside of TOS.

toku

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1195 on: February 24, 2018, 11:00:23 PM »

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1196 on: February 24, 2018, 11:50:41 PM »
lol. Discounting whether the game is any good or not, are there really enough fans to make something like this viable. I mean I know Star Trek online has been going for a long time now but this....

Momo

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1197 on: February 25, 2018, 12:50:54 AM »
I like how they have captains then seven of nine, genuine respect, they sure know the star trek audience  :rollsafe

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1198 on: February 25, 2018, 03:26:17 PM »

« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 03:33:26 PM by Stoney Mason »

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1199 on: February 28, 2018, 02:56:30 AM »


lol. I used a guide on voyager so I skipped a lot of the dreck in season 1 and 2 like this but now I want to watch it.