International Politics Thread - Disease and Disaster

[toku]

https://twitter.com/independent/status/800316477664595968

[VomKriege]

Not too surprising, really. She's polling high relative to the first round which in itself would be groundbreaking for the Front National. The real question is whether she can win 50%+ in the second round against the more classical candidates. I hope the degeneracy of the French electorate has not yet reached that point, but really who can tell considering the times ? Call me prejudiced but in the (unlikely if polls are to be believed at that point) case Le Pen would face a left wing candidate, I don't trust all of the "Republican" right will reciprocate the effort leftist voters made to elect Jacques Chirac with 82% over Marine Le Pen's father.

Though current polls will be a bit fishy because there's really no good sense of who will run for the Socialists. Arnaud Montebourg and Benoit Hamon could maybe evade some of the Hollande stink, though I think Socialists are headed for a poor election either way.

I hope some debates or whatever will be streamed online so I can have a good look at the French candidates.

Not a ton of debates in French presidential election apart from the traditional one before the second round. In 2002, Chirac refused to debate Le Pen.

EDIT :
LR (Right wing) primary is about end its first round. Estimated at 4 millions voters, higher than the 2012 Socialist primary. Higher turnout is supposed to be good for Alain Juppé. Results in 3 to 4 hours probably.

[VomKriege]

Results of the LR primary are being counted live. 6400 or so polling stations have given results out of 10000. Countryside results up first.
Big surprise as the third man, François Fillon, who was on the rise in the last week, is in a very large lead at the moment with 42-43%.
Juppé 27% and Sarkozy 22%.
All the other candidates below 3%.
The Juppé team is a bit shocked as they seem to think that Fillon only got traction at the very end and had one decent debate performance. I guess cities could move things a little, but Fillon is a MP for Paris since 2012, he's probably bound to have some ground game in the capital too. He is also a major figure in northwestern France, having been a region president and a senator.

To speak a little bit of the conservative political platform, there are a lot of similarities between almost all candidates and frontrunners, they :
- Will abolish the wealth tax, a small contribution levied on millionaires (5 billion in revenue per year).
- Will make tax cuts (which means they'll cut spending too).
- Will lower tax on private companies
- Will increase sales tax.
- Want to kill the 35h / week labor law.
- Want to push back retirement age.
- Want to loosen rules for laying off employees.
- Want to loosen the use of firearms for police (to align it on Gendarmerie rules).
- Will not touch to the recently adopted gay marriage law.
- Will not continue on cutting back on civil nuclear power (main source of electricity in France).
- Promise to tighten the grip on immigration.

You get the picture. Vey little on social issues, environment and foreign policy.

On the matter of the EU, Sarkozy wants a new treaty, a stronger executive and less power delegation. Fillon wants a stronger executive for the Eurozone. Juppé wants to reform the EU for less bureaucracy.

Sarkozy would absolutely pander to his right, Juppé to the center.

EDIT : Things are tense at the Sarkozy HQ "Journalists leave ! Traitors ! You all vote Socialist anyway"

EDIT 02 : Jean-François Copé, which I mentioned in an earlier post, is dead last with 0,3% and has only a short lead on white and blank votes.

EDIT 03 : Sarkozy conceded. Will vote for Fillon in the second round. Will retire from politics... AGAIN. 

Unless Sarkozy voters are undisciplined or stay home or independent centrists come out full force, Fillon has this in the bag.

EDIT 04 : Results with 94% of stations reported

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fillon 44,1%
Juppé 28,6%
Sarkozy 20,6%
Kosciusko-Morizet 2,6%
Le Maire 2,4%
Poisson 1,5%
Copé 0,3% (has a 2500 vote lead over the blank/null votes...)

Fillon and Juppé advance to the second and final round next week.
Sarkozy and Le Maire will side with Fillon (though Sarkozy expressed a personal preference rather than a call to his voters).
Kosciusko-Morizet sides with Juppé.

For your personal information : Kosciusko-Morizet is the least conservative by a mile. A women, not too old, elected in Paris. Le Maire is a somewhat young party guy that did well in internal elections and thought he was a contender... Guess not. Poisson is a christian conservative.

A televised debate aired on the two main channels will take place.

[close]

[Raist]

I thought Juppé was favourite by far. He was even wrecking Le Pen in all scenarios.
I'm not sure Fillon be the better choice here, considering his time as PM wasn't exactly very popular.

[VomKriege]

Well, Juppé time as a prime minister wasn't exactly stellar too. The strikes he triggered were of historic proportions. No matter how good his mayor of Bordeaux mandate is, it will never overshadow this. And one thing that plays against him is that he is old too. No matter what polls say, if the trend everywhere is the rejection of "the establishment", Juppé may actually be the worst candidate to field.

As for Fillon time as a prime minister, I think in a weird way he benefits from having been Sarkozy's only PM. It's a sign that he never was the center of massive discontent, he was never discarded in favor of a more X or Y figure and all in all I think people judge his time as mostly a cog for Sarkozy's leadership (God knows Sarkozy owned loudly every little thing he did). Unlike Juppé, I don't think he has any massive corruption scandal attached to his name. Fillon is also an austere devout Catholic and he has this old France feel.
EDIT : He was clearly the one chosen by the provincial Catholic conservatives and the opponents to gay marriage. He won't abrogate it or the possibilty for gay couple to adopt (or so he promised) but he certainly will freeze it as where it is now.

Aside all those considerations, fact of the matter is that the LR base may just like his stern program better than appealling to a soft crowded center. While François Hollande is a Socialist, he was also elected on strong promises of reducing deficits even if it was gonna be unpleasant (I always thought he was fairly forward with that).  He wasn't really a glamourous politician and was elected on the strengh of his supposed negociation skills. I think it's a profile in demand by French voters. Fillon is certainly the one appearing the toughest with his promess to slash half a million public jobs.

To his credit, his promise to conduct 5 referendums on massive issues (make balanced budgets a constitutional obligation  , reform pensions, reforms all local governements and the congress to have less elected officials, restrict immigration) certainly counts as a substantive platform.

TLDR - Fillon is the closest thing to an actual Thatcherite we way end up with in France. 20 years late.

[benjipwns]

lol at Juppe leading for the last like...three years, by huge numbers in every poll ever. Until two weeks ago, when suddenly Fillon was sneaking up on him and Sarkozy.

On the plus side, he does still beat Le Pen's shit in. Something Sarkozy wasn't consistently doing in head-to-heads. Which he had in common with Hollande.

Aside all those considerations, fact of the matter is that the LR base may just like his stern program better than appealling to a soft crowded center.

One other factor, voters may have looked at things and said, shit, we have a better chance of facing off with Le Pen than we do a strong Socialist candidate, we can float a bit more to the right and still seem moderate.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

It worked for Hillary!

[close]

[Syph]

haven't been following French poli the last two months, hows Le Pen doing/how does she stack up in light of this?

[Raist]

Gonna call it now: Le Pen will get to the second round. Then she'll get wrecked though.

The left ain't going to do shit. They need to sort their shit out first.

[VomKriege]

The FN getting a consistent share did change things quite a bit on the right, yes. From 1974 to 1995, it was fairly common to see two right wing candidates running or seriously considering so until the last weeks, generally a "gaullist" and an Europhile liberal, with Chirac having a hand in all of those races. Necessity bred discipline and now the major trend is quite to the right indeed.

Regarding Emmanuel Macron, former Ministrer of Economy gone rogue independent, slighty more favorable views of him informed me that his program could be summed in three major ways :
- Contracts rather than laws, more freedom and granularity (for instance he uttered the idea that works hours per week could decrease os people get older...).
- As a counterweight to more liberalism in the workplace, have "flexible security" : unemployment benefits to be extended to people quitting jobs or one person micro-companies.
- Much policy focus on education and especially on children from 3 to 10.

A much more "Swedish" Social Democrat approach, or so I am told, without the baggage of being tied to the Socialist party, its apparatchiks and its impopularity.
But even favorable observers recognizes his lack of party is a major problem (Mélenchon, the radical left candidate, ditched parties for a grassroot organization, but he's a veteran politician) and that some good ideas do not a political project make.

haven't been following French poli the last two months, hows Le Pen doing/how does she stack up in light of this?

At this point, with the main left party in the tank and the large number of candidates, it's very unlikely a leftist candidate can reach 20% of the vote in the first round which is the expected low floor for the conservatives and a bar that the FN can now reach in a consistent manner. Polls are confirming this so far, with Le Pen polling very high at 29%.

That being said, the sense of certainty over all this is a bit misplaced.
A center right candidate may or may not run, sucking 5 or 10% to a staunch conservative ?
If Macron gets any traction, whose votes is he drilling ?
Green party performance is a total crapshoot to predict.
Communists may not run in the presidency, that's probably 2 to 3% going for Mélenchon.
Socialists haven't chosen a candidate yet and that will impact how the vote flows on the left depending.

We talked about Fillon being a pretty austere, uncharismatic guy. Juppé is the same but he has some intellectual chops. People speculate French citizen are in demand of that, but the reverse could easily be true.

[benjipwns]

I think it's just kind of a "historical certainty" that as we're seeing around the world isn't holding up much anymore.

Like you look at the last poll and FN and Republicans grab a combined 46-64% in all the various scenarios of the first round. Most of the parties that are to the left of them are getting like 5-15% shares individually, which makes it incredibly hard to even get into the second round. Then you have all the various even smaller parties getting around 1-3%. As long as the two major right parties can hold 50+% first round share, it's really really hard to get anybody else into the second round simply out of the vote splitting factor.

Hollande and Sarkozy got 29% and 27% in 2012; Sarkozy and Royal got 31% and 26% in 2007. The low bar was Chirac in 2002 (20% first round, 17% for Le Pen) and 1995 (21%, 23% for Jospin). Every other first round in the Fifth Republic, the advancing two parties have grabbed 50+% of the vote share in the first round.

As you mention, when the center-right doesn't "break" apart AND you have FN effectively getting a "bye" like it seems they might, it's going to be hard for any center-left party to make it unless they all backed somebody in both rounds to prevent it.

[VomKriege]

I think Mélenchon might actually be the only one capable of an upset in the first round. But he would need to overperform, the Socialists to do a terrible score (in fact, best case scenario for Mélenchon is Hollande being nominated : he could eat him alive) and either Le Pen or Fillon/Juppé to poll low. So... yeah. Or maybe Socialists will poll high, but whoever the candidate is will have to pull of a bit of a miracle campaign to do so.

[benjipwns]

Speaking of Germany, I once had a friend in grad school from there and he was doing the lamentation about the American electoral process thing, and I was like "lets have you explain the Bundesrat to someone."

Also, how seats in the Bundestag are allocated.

I love Germany's system, and France's.

[VomKriege]

Another strike at Eurowings, Lufthansa subsidiary, in a couple major airports (incl. Hamburg). A german may correct me but those pop up every two years or so, don't they ?

[Raist]

It' been Germanwings (now Eurowings) like clockwork yes. Occasionally Lufthansa too (not german, but I used to fly germanwings every now and then).

I guess being treated as second tier doesn't work for them. "Low-cost" spin-offs of major companies like LH is a bad idea.

[Rufus]

Yeah, sometimes it's just the pilots, then it's the flight attendants' turn and so on. Never paid close attetion.

[VomKriege]

It' been Germanwings (now Eurowings) like clockwork yes. Occasionally Lufthansa too (not german, but I used to fly germanwings every now and then).
I guess being treated as second tier doesn't work for them. "Low-cost" spin-offs of major companies like LH is a bad idea.

Coming soon in France ! That's exactly the plan laid by Air France.

I mentioned that in the other thread, but Trump saying that Nigel Farage would make a good UK ambassador to the US may look at first like yet another candid outburst when it is in fact starting to look like he is actually helping in pressuring the Tory governement to accept Farage (and UKIP) as a legitimate political partner :

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/22/nigel-farage-uk-ambassador-us-donald-trump

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/14/pm-betraying-national-interest-by-rejecting-my-trump-offer-says-farage

[Raist]

It' been Germanwings (now Eurowings) like clockwork yes. Occasionally Lufthansa too (not german, but I used to fly germanwings every now and then).
I guess being treated as second tier doesn't work for them. "Low-cost" spin-offs of major companies like LH is a bad idea.

Coming soon in France ! That's exactly the plan laid by Air France.

Isn't that what Hop! is already?

[VomKriege]

It' been Germanwings (now Eurowings) like clockwork yes. Occasionally Lufthansa too (not german, but I used to fly germanwings every now and then).
I guess being treated as second tier doesn't work for them. "Low-cost" spin-offs of major companies like LH is a bad idea.

Coming soon in France ! That's exactly the plan laid by Air France.

Isn't that what Hop! is already?

Not familiar with this one, but they announced recently "Air France Boost" on long distance flights to compete with Gulf airlines. Supposedly not a low cost and will use voluntary Air France personnel (with lower wages and benefits IIRC). Hop! seems mostly focused on national flights (with a handful of european routes).

[Raist]

It' been Germanwings (now Eurowings) like clockwork yes. Occasionally Lufthansa too (not german, but I used to fly germanwings every now and then).
I guess being treated as second tier doesn't work for them. "Low-cost" spin-offs of major companies like LH is a bad idea.

Coming soon in France ! That's exactly the plan laid by Air France.

Isn't that what Hop! is already?

Not familiar with this one, but they announced recently "Air France Boost" on long distance flights to compete with Gulf airlines. Supposedly not a low cost and will use voluntary Air France personnel (with lower wages and benefits IIRC). Hop! seems mostly focused on national flights (with a handful of european routes).

Well they are fairly similar cases.

Eurowings was a regional / national commuter airline, LH got involved (read: bought stocks) and pushed for the creation of Germanwings, progressively offloading their short-distance flights to GW, since less and less people were willing to pay the ridiculous LH prices for short-distance. And now they've regrouped/rebranded GW back into EW.

Hop! is made of various short-distance airlines that used to be occasional contractors for AF. Although I'm not quite sure what their current status is. As in, pretty much fully owned by AF like GW/EW or not.

[benjipwns]

[VomKriege]

At least 100 Shia pilgrims dead in an attack by the IS in Iraq. The city of Haïfa in Israël is undergoing mass evacuations because of several fires, maybe started by one or several arsonists.

[brawndolicious]

When my brother and his wife went to that area of Iraq 6 months ago, they said that they and the locals weren't worried about IS because they were hundreds of miles away. Small cells everywhere is probably going to be the new normal.

[VomKriege]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/26/mass-killings-as-rebels-target-ethnic-fulanis-in-central-african-republic

Another day, another horror in Centrafrique.

Speaking of which, Africa was never mentioned in the latest right wing primary debate despite French presence in several regions. Sarkozy had famously said in a speech given in Sénégal that "the African man had not yet enough entered History" which as you can imagine didn't really made him a darling down south. François Fillon has been caught a couple of times being very apologetic to the history of French colonization and the word is that unlike many other French politician he doesn't have any network there.

[Syph]

At least 100 Shia pilgrims dead in an attack by the IS in Iraq. The city of Haïfa in Israël is undergoing mass evacuations because of several fires, maybe started by one or several arsonists.

Israel fires: Al-Qaeda linked Palestinian militant group 'claims responsibility' for devastating Haifa blaze

An al-Qaeda linked militant group has claimed responsibility for starting a devastating fire in the Israeli city of Haifa that forced tens of thousands of people to flee their homes.

Ma’sadat al-Mujahideen, a Palestinian Salafist group, has claimed to be behind several previous blazes in Israel, including the Mount Carmel forest fire that killed more than 40 people near Haifa in 2010.

There is no proof of the group’s involvement in the blaze, or others they claimed near Jerusalem in 2011 and in the American state of Nevada in the following year.

[VomKriege]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/27/wife-of-putin-official-performs-in-concentration-camp-ice-dance

[VomKriege]

Your French politics update :

As you may have heard, Fillon won the second round of the right's primary in a landslide.
Meanwhile there's some sparks in the government as both incumbent Hollande, despite abject impopularity, and the Prime Minister fancies their own chances.

The French Communists party members ultimately decided to side with Jean-Luc Mélenchon, the biggest radical left candidate, despite the collaboration between the two having been much problem ridden in the past.

I spoke of Mélenchon before and I might vote for him, though I have several issues with his program, as it seems clear the Socialists probably couldn't find their way out of a paper bag right now.

To give you a clearer idea of Mélenchon's project, here's the main propositions :
- Mélenchon wants to call a constitutional assembly to rewrite the constitution for a VIth republic which would transform back France into a parliamentary regime with more constitutional social overtones. Once completed he would step down. Mélenchon is 65 years old and I have been told, by someone familiar with his organization, that he didn't want to run in this election but the prospective candidate (his campaign manager) died.
- He wants to impose 35h/week as the real standard for full employment, retirement at 60 yo (currently 62), 1700 euros as the monthly minimum wage (1466 as of now).
- Will cut all subsidies to companies (currently public spending is paying their dues to national healthcare and such on low wages, 30 billions euros a year) and tax financial transactions, have the state buy shares in strategic companies to strenghten its position, among other things.
- Is likely to unilaterally make some changes to public debt, Mélenchon is not a big believer of this.
- Want a "green planification" for a better transition to environment friendly infrastructure. Lot of lip service to investment in progress and technology (France has the second largest territorial waters, lots of assets for science and space). Foreign policy much turned to French speaking African countries & the Med, hoping to foster more positive, equal relationships. Mélenchon is very much into the idea of France as an enlightnement beacon.

The more contentious dimensions are as follows :
- He wants to back out of several European treaties, mostly those straightjacketing public finances. Which mean imploding the EU as it now exists with no certainty of making something better work.
- He wants to leave NATO.

The former is probably bound to happen in the near future (Either that of the EU just crumbling), though I am not too psyched for it. I'm very cold on the latter, though France had a 40 years stint out of joint command. Would be more wise to see what exactly the Trump administration intend to do with NATO.
Mélenchon foreign policy is all the more suspect to me as he always had some fondness for Chavez (and Castro, as he loudly remembered everyone just yesterday...), not exactly the most reassuring examples to have.

As a person, he is forceful, loud, populist, charismatic (certainly more than anything the Socialists, Communists or Greens can field). He's been in politics for long and he knows the game well. In case of a potential victory he might run into some of the same issues you could expect from a far right win : lack of personnel to man the key positions (or win a majority) in the administration and would probably have to collaborate with Socialists.

[VomKriege]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/29/lapo-elkann-agnelli-family-faking-kidnap-fiat

You extort 10k$ out of your billionaire family ?

[brawndolicious]

Maybe he wanted to troll his family. I don't know what it's like in Europe, but cash withdrawals of $10,000 or more require the account holder to fill out a form reporting the withdrawal and there can be serious jail time if they find out you lied about what the cash was for.

With $10k, that's just enough to fuel a coke bender and embarrass your family.

[VomKriege]

French national police may have facilitated the importation of 40 tons of cannabis "to infiltrate & bust networks" without submitting itself to its obligations to do so under strict supervision of a judge. Not only are the size of the shipments ludicrous but uncovered communications between several high ranking police officials also points out that those were brought in with the help of an informant, a major player in the European trade and a rival to the police target, which was at the behest of the same officials set free early (Only did 5 years of his 13 years condamnation). His implication was, according to judges, obfuscated. It all came crashing when Customs interfered & seized 7 tons in a Paris loft.

François Molins, the Paris attorney general, took the case off the hands of the suspected officials to give it to the Paris police section*. The informant was brought back in France from Belgium where he fled and is now asking to be cross examined with his handlers, whose orders he claims to have followed all along.

* Technically part of national police but enjoy large autonomy.

[Samson Manhug]

When my brother and his wife went to that area of Iraq 6 months ago, they said that they and the locals weren't worried about IS because they were hundreds of miles away. Small cells everywhere is probably going to be the new normal.

The attack was in Irbil. It's like 50 miles from Mosul which is still partly under control by IS.

[Syph]

OPEC oh boy

[Madrun Badrun]

Should be good for Canada's economy. 

[VomKriege]

Incumbent French President François Hollande has announced he won't seek reelection. Also said his only regret is to have floated back the idea of stripping citizenship for terrorists, a stupid idea indeed.

I am surprised, to be honest, thought the hubris would get the best of him. It's probably the best he could do to soften the blow for the Socialists, though it is still an admission of defeat.

[Syph]

What are the arguments for and against stripping a convicted terrorist of citizenship?
And why is the left categorically opposed? Genuinely curious; I haven't really thought about this before.

Is the biggest complaint similar to the death penalty? In the sense that there is always the possibility you make a mistake?
You would think the bar is higher for terrorism convictions though, no?
I'm sure someone will point to indefinite detentions in Guantanamo Bay, but some of the ones that were released weren't charged in the end, so that wouldn't apply..?

Or is it simply "what is terrorism"?

And it was for people with dual citizenships anyway wasn't it?
One of the articles I read compares it to leaving Jews stateless, but if here the parties start with dual citizenship then..?

[Madrun Badrun]

1) There are still many at gitmo who can not be released and can not be charged.  They are in jail forever with no hope of a trial.  This is fundamentally wrong.  Having people spend a decade of their life then be released without a trail is also fundamentally wrong. 
2) It can lead to people with no citizenship who will end up sitting in jail because no country will have them.  Having dual citizenship doesn't mean that the other country will accept them back.
3) It can lead to people being sent to countries where they will be tortured and killed.
4) You lose control of them.  I'd rather have them in our prison than a Pakistani one they can buy their way out of.   
5) It's a feel good non-solution.

[Syph]

1) There are still many at gitmo who can not be released and can not be charged.  They are in jail forever with no hope of a trial.  This is fundamentally wrong.  Having people spend a decade of their life then be released without a trail is also fundamentally wrong. 
2) It can lead to people with no citizenship who will end up sitting in jail because no country will have them.  Having dual citizenship doesn't mean that the other country will accept them back.
3) It can lead to people being sent to countries where they will be tortured and killed.
4) You lose control of them.  I'd rather have them in our prison than a Pakistani one they can buy their way out of.   
5) It's a feel good non-solution.

1) I was specifically talking about those who have been convicted; I brought up Gitmo to distinguish it
2) Good point
3-4) We're talking about terrorists...I'm a bit confused how #2 and 4 don't contradict eachother; I agree with your "buying their way out of" point, but I feel like your points are in conflict.
No citizenship so they can't go anywhere but you want them in your jail anyway?
Not being accepted by their other country of citizenship is a good point though

I can see it being a problem for "fringe" terrorists or ones who let's say have been convicted to short sentences (although that's a whole other topic) but what about lifers? (obviously the law would have to apply for all; this is a thought experiment)
Would indefinite detention be a big deal when they're already serving a life sentence? In this case your 5th point would indeed be true; it would basically be a symbolic gesture

[Madrun Badrun]

Sitting in jail waiting for a deportation is not the same as being convinced and sent to a prison.  Also how do you deal with appeals, is citizenship stripped after the first conviction or do you wait for like a decade until all appeals are exhausted?  If its the former I think its wrong if its the latter then what's the point after all that time? 

For your edit:  Because being in prison as a citizen is a lot different than being in prison as a non-citizen and we can look at prisoners treatment at gitmo to see the exact difference.  If you strip somones citizenship and still keep them in your jail you are not burdened by treating them with the same protections as citizens and this will lead to abuse. 

[Great Rumbler]

Giving the government the power to unilaterally strip someone of citizenship, considering how sometimes nebulous the definition of "terrorism" can be, just seems like a really bad idea all the way around. I mean, I hate the "slippery slope" argument as a general rule, but this seems like an area where that would definitely apply. Similar to the use of torture. It's just a bad idea, don't do it at all, no matter what the justification is.

[Syph]

Sitting in jail waiting for a deportation is not the same as being convinced and sent to a prison.  Also how do you deal with appeals, is citizenship stripped after the first conviction or do you wait for like a decade until all appeals are exhausted?  If its the former I think its wrong if its the latter then what's the point after all that time?

I agree the former would be wrong, and as to the latter, I don't know; again, I've never thought about stripping someone of citizenship before.

Where does one go when they are stateless?

I guess the general argument for stripping ( ) would be you don't want a terrorist in your country? I can sympathize with that
What's nagging me is thinking now about terrorists convicted to a definite sentence, suppose 5 years, and being released. And how this can be reduced to retribution vs. rehabilitation...

spoiler (click to show/hide)

sorry i will respond in a bit; im procrastinating from studying for my exam tomorrow lol

[close]

Giving the government the power to unilaterally strip someone of citizenship, considering how sometimes nebulous the definition of "terrorism" can be, just seems like a really bad idea all the way around. I mean, I hate the "slippery slope" argument as a general rule, but this seems like an area where that would definitely apply. Similar to the use of torture. It's just a bad idea, don't do it at all, no matter what the justification is.

I agree, so I was initially stressing to consider the case of someone convicted and sentenced to a life sentence (which, again, can be imperfect). But yea, "slippery slope" definitely applies here

[Great Rumbler]

How's that different from any other criminal act that lands you in prison for a similar period of time, though? Rapists and murders get released back into society all the time, citizenship intact.

[Syph]

How's that different from any other criminal act that lands you in prison for a similar period of time, though? Rapists and murders get released back into society all the time, citizenship intact.

I could answer this by saying 1. they should be stripped too or 2. terrorists occupy a special case or 3. neither

I honestly don't know what I would answer.
It always bothered me growing up in Canada how our laws were more lenient than America, but the law is the law, so if you "serve your time" you "deserve" to be let back into society. Interesting to think about though
Again it has some valid slippery slope connotations, not to mention the myriad of caveats or defenses for murder. Rape though? Maybe that would be a little closer to terrorism (what a sentence that was to write)

[VomKriege]

First, there's already provisions in French law to strip people of citizenship if they "harm the core interest of the nation" but it only applies to people having received French citizenship 10 to 15 before max, not to any natural born citizen (It's unclear that law saw a lot of use). The government was so unsure of itself that a law could survive cross examination by courts (French or European) that they wanted to pass it into the constitution via an amendment.

While France never ratified or made some of the treaties effective law, it has signed a number of treaties and documents which state pretty firmly that you can't create apatrid people (including the 1948 declaration of Human Rights). The President, Prime Minister and a number of other major political figures confirmed this position. The reason for that is self evident, as a person without a citizenship is denied most form of recourses and appeals anyone is expected to have.
Stripping binational people of their rights as citizens just out of convenience (something the UK does, I believe, to some citizens who may have fled to the Middle East to wage Jihad), isn't super kosher in itself though maybe less problematic in international law.

Hence the law would only be applied to people with dual nationalities. It's already dumb, possibly discriminatory. It only covers a small minority of French citizens (5% estimated). It's probably not gonna make people willing to blow themselves up think twice. It can only be applied on convicted terrorists (hence after years and years of trials and appeals) and doesn't have a purpose unlike jailing which at the very least isolate dangerous people and keep them available for justice.

As Arvie said, it was a ton of effort for a morally questionable law and a feel-good non-solution.

Besides, it was a prolitical mistake and liability for the current French government to use this idea.

[Syph]

Thanks for the background

[VomKriege]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/03/aung-san-suu-kyi-accuses-international-community-of-stoking-unrest-in-myanmar

I had forgotten she was in charge of the government there...

EDIT :

https://www.theatlantic.com/liveblogs/2016/12/news-today/509381/12149/

Aleppo's Beloved Clown Is Killed in an Airstrike

Fuck this is depressing.

[Phoenix Dark]

holy shit

[Great Rumbler]

 

[Syph]

austria's far-right party comes up short, while italy's PM concedes

[VomKriege]

Italy is still far from deciding on leaving the Euro or the EU but I think the Union as it stands is toasted in the coming years unless there's a real economic uptake (maybe one triggered by future US and British policies) trickling down to the discontents. This cycle of elections (France, Germany and Italy no later than mid-2018) are, I fear, the last shot before nasty parties become real contenders to key offices.

[VomKriege]

French Prime Minister Manuel Valls will also resign tomorrow as he just announced his bid to run in the Socialist primary for the upcoming presidential election, now that incumbent Hollande has declined seeking re-election. A new government will be formed with loyalists to manage the last few months.

Valls may be facing an uphill battle in the primary and not only because he will come with the baggage of his official duties. In 2011's primary he barely got 6% of the votes despite being a known figure at the time. Valls has always been characterized as "to the right" of the PS and certainly fancies himself as a law & order, stern defender of the republic, type. So much so in fact that his agressiveness and haughtiness is sometimes reminiscent of Nicolas Sarkozy personal demeanor, not exactly one the French citizens are fond of right now.

[VomKriege]

Bibi doesn't like his statue :

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/06/king-bibi-netanyahu-statue-attacked-by-israeli-culture-minister

[Syph]

Angela Merkel endorses burka ban 'wherever legally possible'

 

[Rufus]

"Wherever possible" is a pretty big hedge.

It's business as usual for her. She 'supports' whatever the polls say.

[Great Rumbler]

Philippine police killed a town mayor linked to illegal drugs while he was helpless in a prison cell, justice department investigators alleged.

The National Bureau of Investigation said on Tuesday that it filed murder complaints against two dozen police officers and personnel last week after a probe showed they shot dead Mayor Rolando Espinosa and his cellmate Raul Yap in the central province of Leyte in November.

"The pieces of evidence, both testimonial and the forensic evidence, all agree. We believe we have a very strong case," said Ferdinand Lavin, the NBI's deputy director.

Prosecutors will rule whether there is enough evidence to indict the policemen.

The finding contradicted claims by the accused and President Rodrigo Duterte that the victims were killed in a gun battle.

Duterte had accused Espinosa, mayor of the town of Albuera in the eastern province of Leyte, of being a drug lord. He had initially given police "shoot-to-kill" orders if Espinosa did not surrender, prompting the mayor to turn himself in.

NBI said the policemen most likely planted pistols and illegal drugs in their jail cells to justify a police raid.

[Rufus]

'Too Much Jewish Content' Gets Head of Berlin's Polish Institute Fired
Sources say dismissal was due to liberal views of center's director, who arranged screenings of Holocaust film and other activities that upset Warsaw's right-wing government.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/.premium-1.757229

 

[Great Rumbler]

Poland, what are ya doing?

[VomKriege]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/07/world/asia/rodrigo-duterte-philippines-drugs-killings.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Jesus Christ.

[Joe Molotov]

'Too Much Jewish Content' Gets Head of Berlin's Polish Institute Fired
Sources say dismissal was due to liberal views of center's director, who arranged screenings of Holocaust film and other activities that upset Warsaw's right-wing government.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/.premium-1.757229

 

Here's the new head:
http://www.thebore.com/forum/index.php?topic=44659

[Great Rumbler]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/07/world/asia/rodrigo-duterte-philippines-drugs-killings.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Jesus Christ.

I mean, you've got the President of the freaking country telling people "Just go out and gun down drug users/dealers, we won't punish you! We'll even reward you!" So, best case scenario here is that you've got several thousand drug users/dealers dead without even a formal accusation, much less an actual trial, which is bad enough. Worst case scenario, at least some of people dead weren't connected to drugs at all, but were killed for other reasons and the connection to drugs was made after their death. And they're, what?, only about six months into Duterte's term? Crazy.

[VomKriege]

UK Cabinet is looking pretty good after the latest row between Prime Minister May and Foreign Secretary Johnson over the latter's remarks on Saudi Arabia.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/09/theresa-may-put-downs-some-muttering-darkly-anti-boris-johnson-plot

There is a growing pattern emerging from Downing Street, some of May’s colleagues say, of a regime that’s a bit too controlling, a bit too ready to bare its teeth in public. (...) The prime minister used one interview this week, with the Spectator, to criticise her own civil servants (...) Most striking was her off-the-cuff remark at a Spectator awards ceremony, comparing her foreign secretary to the out-of-control dog choked by Michael Heseltine. “Boris, the dog was put down when its master decided it wasn’t needed any more,” she said.

British Boreans may confirm this, but Miss May is trying a little too hard being the Tinpot Lady ?

[Mupepe]

because semantics make for a convenient deflection tool.