THE BORE
General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: The Fake Shemp on September 19, 2006, 01:34:39 PM
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Okay, a nun was killed. Churches have been destroyed. Extremists yesterday called for an Islamic army to March on Rome. And according to the Washington Times, "a well-known Muslim firebrand said in London that the pontiff should face capital punishment."
Moderate Muslims need to get their house in order and stop letting these distinguished mentally-challenged idiots hijack their religion. If Pat Robertson had all of the Christian world trying to kick start the Crusades: Part X and lynching homosexuals en masse, I'd say the same thing. But that's not the case.
And does anyone find it absolutely distinguished mentally-challenged that the Pope was quoting text about inhumane and evil practices of Islam (not saying that this was out of line and the dude has apologized), and that the Muslim world reacts with violence? WAY TO NOT PROVE HIS POINT.
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I dunno the new Pope is sorta a jerk.
Honestly I dont see ANY of the extremist christians or muslims serving as positive examples of humanity. The shit in israel was sorta depressing, but thats how people live over there.
Just a bunch of angry people ruled by their religion, not by their hearts.
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Take our Christians and stick 'em in the desert, rule them with penny-ante dictators, rock their neighborhoods with gunfire and mortar shells, and see how TURN THE OTHER CHEEK THEY ARE. Hell, see how "moderate" ANYONE is under those circumstances.
Of course, that doesn't justify the violent rhetoric, but it sure as hell explains it. The Middle East is a shithole, and religion is all most of them have -- and when that gets threatened, you can bet things are gonna turn nasty.
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It's irrelevant that the Pope is a jerk. What does that have to do with the nun who was killed? Did she personally inhabit the body of Benedict and quote that medieval text? No, she was killed based on religious affiliation. What about the churches that have been destroyed?
Protests against the Pope's comments are one thing, but violent reactions to the religion in general is fucking distinguished mentally-challenged.
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Take our Christians and stick 'em in the desert, rule them with penny-ante dictators, rock their neighborhoods with gunfire and mortar shells, and see how TURN THE OTHER CHEEK THEY ARE. Hell, see how "moderate" ANYONE is under those circumstances.
Of course, that doesn't justify the violent rhetoric, but it sure as hell explains it. The Middle East is a shithole, and religion is all most of them have -- and when that gets threatened, you can bet things are gonna turn nasty.
Drinky, most of the current violent rhetoric is from Europe and South Asia. The nun was slain in Somalia. This is far from being contained in the Middle East.
This boils down to violent rhetoric from militant Muslims and fundamentalists that is all but condoned by moderate Muslims. It's been the problem for ages. Moderate Muslims love to straddle the line, especially here in the US and go, "Hey, we wouldn't kill anyone, but we understand why the extremists and militants do it! Evil Westerners!" And that shit just perpetuates the atmosphere that that crap is acceptable in the religion, and widens the gap between cultures.
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I dont understand why youre shocked. Christians kill muslims as often as muslims kill christians. Yes, we can focus on an isolated case and cry foul, but I am not sure what that accomplishes.
I do recognize it is a tragedy that someone died over something so dumb, and if I cared about religion I might even feel bad about the church itself, but to me its just vandalism, which isn't nearly as bad as someone getting killed IN a church.
I guess I have followed this enough in the past to realize that nothing I feel or do will change something that has been churning for a thousands of years.
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I dont understand why youre shocked. Christians kill muslims as often as muslims kill christians. Yes, we can focus on an isolated case and cry foul, but I am not sure what that accomplishes.
No.
Violent reactions of Christians against Muslims is nothing compared to vice versa, unless you plan to generalize the faith as Western culture in general and the always fun straw-grasping that the West are imperialist bigots that slaughter Muslims in the Middle East every day.
This is not a religious debate, as it is a cultural one. I mean, where were you for the Danish cartoon newspaper fiasco?
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I'll even change the viewpoint slightly so it becomes crystal.
A nun was murdered, helping the sick at a hospital and what does the Christian world do? Mourn her loss, appreciate her life and the Pope even says he hopes her death will bridge the cultural gap. There are no Catholic extremists destroying mosques or Muslim clerics in retaliation.
Now you think if the same thing had happened, that a very public and global murder of a Muslim cleric by Christian hands had occured, that the same scene would take place?
I highly, highly doubt it.
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I think I am mostly generalizing religion. I dont trust religion. While it has been the foundation of so much it has also shown an equal capacity for destruction.
I don't come from a family founded in any one religion, and I am composed of many different nationalities, as such I believe in almost nothing spirtual and have no ties to 'the old country'. I have long since given up pointing fingers in this game of bullets, bombs, and swords. I refuse to pick sides in something so foolish. I think the ability to do this is one of the things I cherish most about being an individual.
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Yeah I hate it when Christians and Buddhists run around burning shit down, declaring religious war on various peoples. Oh wait. They've moved on. It's time for some Muslim fundies to move on as well, methinks.
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Lebanese Christians have killed plenty of folks in the name of their religion in the past 20 years, dode. That exact scene HAS taken place in reverse, with Lebanese Christians exacting bloody revenge. countless times. See also: Eastern European and TUrkish Christians.
Look, it's obvious: you stick people in a hell hole and shatter their lives with endless warfare and YEAH they tend to have violent reactions to things.
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I'd say I'm not more or less meshed as you. I come from a Judaeo-Christian household, with a menorah in one corner and a Jesus tree in the other. I've got family members of all races and religious creed.
There is a time and a place for responsibility, and I don't think any one religious group should shirk it simply because - hey - everyone's got bloody hands. I blame Western Jews for a lot of the stuff that goes down in Israel, but that's also a completely different scenario, defined by governments, terrorists, gunfire and political landscapes.
This is about a religious figure that quoted some text, albeit insensitive and perhaps offensive, and the violence that has erupted since. It's silly to demand and take blood over words, and not even his own words. And words he apologized for.
Moderate Muslims are the first to go on television and claim that the violence has nothing to do with them, but at a certain point in time, this shit has to be condemned by the majority or this will continue until someone destroys the wrong landmark in the wrong country.
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Ah, excuse me. I'm not up on the subject of Lebonese extremist Christianity.
We've still got the Buddhists to look to, right? ...right?
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Lebanese Christians have killed plenty of folks in the name of their religion in the past 20 years, dode. That exact scene HAS taken place in reverse, with Lebanese Christians exacting bloody revenge. countless times. See also: Eastern European and TUrkish Christians.
Bloody revenge over violence, land, murder, beliefs and such is one thing. And not even excusable. Violence over cartoons and speech? C'mon, let's not compare the two. If you want to go into warfare, as I said, it's grasping straws, because it's not this conversation.
If you want to say that the Muslim world is unfairly attacked by the West in terms of combat, you'd have a point.
Look, it's obvious: you stick people in a hell hole and shatter their lives with endless warfare and YEAH they tend to have violent reactions to things.
This ignores Europe and South Asia - or does everywhere where Muslims live qualify as a so-called "hell hole"?
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I think the case with those extremist muslims is that a lot of them are simply not educated. They are easily brainwashed by corrupted local leaders who pervt the words of their religions and use them for their own gains; the regular muslims are the victims of this, as they are bundled with those extremists. The youth who get endoctrined with the more extremist interpration of their religions are the front line soldiers, sadly, as they dont know any better.
It is a shame.
It's those moderate muslims that should raise their voice and tell the extreme side to stfu. But they cant do shit, why? because dialog with silly yapping dogs is impossible. They need to move on, as someone said. They are becoming simply obselete. THeir only ways of dialogs are violence, and then they start crying about how their are victims when someone relatiates.
Killing another human because they dont agree with your views is unacceptable in a modern society. Education and understanding is the only way. Those who refuse to cooperate and communicate will forever be stuck into their own ghettos.
Nobody will ever give them a chance to be accepted unless they start accepting the majority, and its differences.
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I make no bones about the extremists. It's a different world to them, and I don't think we can change that.
But I think there needs to be a more global effort to condemn these kind of remarks and attacks within the religion, instead of all this political posturing to get the West to understand why they act violent. It basically condones this behavior.
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Pretty much. The other side doesnt want to do anything, because they are afraid to spawn an even bigger shitstorm. it's a shame because people will die. I know some regular, mainstream muslims and they REALLY HATE whats going on, and they HATE how they are being bundled with the troublemakers.
There's just no real way. You got one angry side who is always OMGOMG BREAK SHIT UP LISTEN TO ME YOUR WAYS ARE MAKIGN ME SO ANGRY OMGOGMGOMGMOGM' and the other side is like "Ok. I see. And Now for our entertainement news, Nick and Jessica are back toget--".
One side is always angry, the other side doesnt care. Nothing will ever move that way.
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Well, seeing how kids in some regions from a young age are basically taught that everything Non Islam is evil and that Violence is needed to spread Islam, it doesn't make one so hopeful about things turning around.
This violence in Islam is probably a smaller subset of the majority but the religion itself in terms of followers is pretty huge, so even the small subset makes up alot of people.
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What we all need to do is fuck each other.
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Jesus, buy a airplane ticket you cheap bastard.
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I don't fly out of LAX anymore. I'm going all the way to Long Beach just to avoid LAX for the holidays.
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I was going to make a post on this. Being politically correct I'll say, some Muslims are fucking stupid. These groups in particular.
So let me get his straight, a few muslim groups got pissed the pope said something about Islam being too violent. Then Extremists get pissed at his comments and say, 'we're not fucking violent!, lets kill him!'. Then proceed to riot and kill and damage things from those comments! You fucking idiots, you just PROVED what the pope said.
The only reason this starts a bunch of crap, as always in the middle east, is there is a much larger population of extremist Muslims than any other religion. They hate Christians, they hate Jews, hell they even hate OTHER Muslims! Fuck em, I say. They think they get what they want by blowing themselves up, I hope all these extremists fucking die.
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Islam needs to be eradicated from the earth.
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What these groups need is a taste of their own medicine. We need to get some pipe smoking niccas with some tweezers over there to blow THEMSELVES up on them, and see how it feels. I'm talking so0me hardcore shit, you dig?
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How many violent Muslims in first-world countries are there?
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How many violent Muslims in first-world countries are there?
The terrorists in England were home grown. And how quickly do we forget the violent protests in France, mostly young, disenfranchised Muslim youth. Or any number of violent protests due to the European press reprinting cartoons.
The numbers get worse and the actions are far out of control, sometimes state sponsored, in the Middle East, though.
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I dunno willco this doesnt seem very objective. This has actually shut down some avenues of conversation between you and me.
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too much sugar obviously.
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that's what happens when you replace Saddam with Marie Antoinette.
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I dunno willco this doesnt seem very objective. This has actually shut down some avenues of conversation between you and me.
What, LAX sucks and I love Long Beach.
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Moderate Muslims need to get their house in order and stop letting these distinguished mentally-challenged idiots hijack their religion. If Pat Robertson had all of the Christian world trying to kick start the Crusades: Part X and lynching homosexuals en masse, I'd say the same thing. But that's not the case.
Kind of like how Moderate Christians need to get their house in order and stop letting distinguished mentally-challenged fundies hijack their religion and brainwash their children.
Just because we aren't putting weapons in their hands and telling them to commit suicide in the name of Jesus doesn't mean the evangelist takeover here in the US of A is something to shrug off.
But, I can see your point and I'm not saying you are wrong.
I just figured I'd make that comparison.
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Yeah I hate it when Christians and Buddhists run around burning shit down, declaring religious war on various peoples. Oh wait. They've moved on. It's time for some Muslim fundies to move on as well, methinks.
QFT
You don't see Pat Robertson advocating that people blow up MTV's studios or any shit like that. I know Islam is a religion of peace. But god dammit these fundies..
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Umm Pat Robertson is fucking evil.
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People pay too much attention to dogma and zealous leaders in all religions, so there's no reason to single out Islam in terms of that.
That's not really relevant. Like I said Jews and Christians and everyone have their own problems, but this topic is in respect to the violent reaction to the Pope quoting some medieval text.
But addressing your point, there really is not evangelist takeover in the United States. America has always had pretty Puritan ideals (no sex on TV, but violence is good!), but now you have an invigorated political base verus a bunch disorganized, liberal voters that can't seem to energize their base due to apathy.
And - yes - Pat Robertson sucks.
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Moderate Muslims need to get their house in order and stop letting these distinguished mentally-challenged idiots hijack their religion. If Pat Robertson had all of the Christian world trying to kick start the Crusades: Part X and lynching homosexuals en masse, I'd say the same thing. But that's not the case.
Kind of like how Moderate Christians need to get their house in order and stop letting distinguished mentally-challenged fundies hijack their religion and brainwash their children.
Just because we aren't putting weapons in their hands and telling them to commit suicide in the name of Jesus doesn't mean the evangelist takeover here in the US of A is something to shrug off.
But, I can see your point and I'm not saying you are wrong.
I just figured I'd make that comparison.
They have more babies. How many babies have you had Diablos? Crazy fundamentalism is a good reproductive strategy in an environment filled with birth control. Shrugging off the inevitable.
Fundies: We gots to have babies cause that's what the Lord says and we lives in rural areas where house prices be cheap so we can affords it.
Atheist Cloudwalking: yuck... babies?
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Moderate Muslims need to get their house in order and stop letting these distinguished mentally-challenged idiots hijack their religion. If Pat Robertson had all of the Christian world trying to kick start the Crusades: Part X and lynching homosexuals en masse, I'd say the same thing. But that's not the case.
Kind of like how Moderate Christians need to get their house in order and stop letting distinguished mentally-challenged fundies hijack their religion and brainwash their children.
Just because we aren't putting weapons in their hands and telling them to commit suicide in the name of Jesus doesn't mean the evangelist takeover here in the US of A is something to shrug off.
But, I can see your point and I'm not saying you are wrong.
I just figured I'd make that comparison.
Poor comparison. Fundie Christians are raising their kids to fear God, and then sending them to law school. These fundie Muslims are raising their kids to fear God, and then go blow up a bunch of innocent people. Come on.
I'm not saying the Christians aren't fucking things up too, but they can be kept in check by the law, as well as the public who elects officials. There are no checks on these Muslim bastards.
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does it help that most westerners are out-of-touch distinguished mentally-challenged fellows like Willco?
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does it help that most westerners are out-of-touch distinguished mentally-challenged fellows like Willco?
How about bringing something to the discussion versus just name calling. Why? Because you probably have nothing.
And by bringing something to the discussion, I don't mean comparing apples-to-oranges by bringing in Western military campaigns and land vendettas like Drinky. If you want to create a topic about it - go ahead.
I'm talking about the violent reaction and rhetoric related to the Pope quoting someone's elses text.
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Poor comparison. Fundie Christians are raising their kids to fear God, and then sending them to law school. These fundie Muslims are raising their kids to fear God, and then go blow up a bunch of innocent people. Come on.
No, they're saying to send them law school because that makes a difference.
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Poor comparison. Fundie Christians are raising their kids to fear God, and then sending them to law school. These fundie Muslims are raising their kids to fear God, and then go blow up a bunch of innocent people. Come on.
No, they're saying to send them law school because that makes a difference.
Yes, a far more constructive difference than blowing up little kids in coffe shops.
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How about bringing something to the discussion versus just name calling. Why? Because you probably have nothing.
They have no problems with other religion being practiced, you can't make a culture that hates that. They hate the sheep mentality of the countries controlling them. You shove them of full rhetoric about class systems and self-congratulatory pats on the back and they'll strap a bomb on themselves.
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Yes, a far more constructive difference than blowing up little kids in coffe shops.
Muslims send their kids to law schools. you didn't say anything worth repeating.
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So basically, you're proving my point, by condoning such violence and rhetoric?
Also, I'd say I've met far smarter Muslim students that actually care about their education that the crazy Christians that think Passion of the Christ is the most important piece of media since the Bible went into mass print.
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Yes, a far more constructive difference than blowing up little kids in coffe shops.
Muslims send their kids to law schools. you didn't say anything worth repeating.
But apparently a lot send their kids to "blow up innocent people" school too. Can't say that about fundie Christian parents eh?
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So basically, you're proving my point, by condoning such violence and rhetoric?
No, you're ranting about it on a message board.
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What the fuck, PhoenixDark. You're dragging this shit so far off topic it doesn't make any sense.
Fundamentalists are fucked up, period. It doesn't matter what religion you subscribe to.
No, you're ranting about it on a message board.
This kind of was irrelevant to my question, and per usual, makes no sense. Way to go!
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But apparently a lot send their kids to "blow up innocent people" school too. Can't say that about fundie Christian parents eh?
Just ban him.
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Poor comparison. Fundie Christians are raising their kids to fear God, and then sending them to law school. These fundie Muslims are raising their kids to fear God, and then go blow up a bunch of innocent people. Come on.
No, they're saying to send them law school because that makes a difference.
It's true.
According to polls, there aren't that many nonbelievers in this country. So you can throw the whole idea that all liberals are godless and therefore don't have kids. And even if they DID, no one typically has that many children unless you're a fundie. Now more than ever these evangelists are working like a machine, pumping out the kids and striking the fear of god into them as soon as they can walk.
Like it's so terrible that NORMAL people who can actually think for themselves will actually limit the amount of kids they have and use birth control, omg, how awful.
PhoenixDark, like I said, I didn't DISAGREE with Willco, I'm just saying we can't forget about fundies on even a much smaller scale, because even if they *legitemately* want to change the world -- THEY ARE CHANGING IT. And one could argue they have a more secure chance of doing so because there's obviously no basis for attacking these innocent people. Whereas terrorists have a pretty big target on them for obvious reasons.
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But the discussion isn't one of, "Well, who's fundamentalists are worse?" Fundamentalists suck period. Hell, the scariest fundamentalists I can think of don't hail from Islam - it'd have to be Mormonism.
This is about discussing the relevant topic of the Pope, and the violent reaction on his words.
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But apparently a lot send their kids to "blow up innocent people" school too. Can't say that about fundie Christian parents eh?
Just ban him.
Why, because you have no ability whatsoever to defend yourself? If you're Muslim, I don't give a shit; I have no problem with Islam, and I have great respect for the religion. But to compare the fundie branch of Christianity to that of Islam is absolute bullshit, and a direct attack on Christianity, which I don't appreciate.
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PhoenixDark, you teetering dangerous close to out-of-line. If you can't discuss this topic without wrongfully thinking an attack on fundamentalist Christian groups is an assault on the religion on general, I'm going to put you in time out.
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Why, because you have no ability whatsoever to defend yourself? If you're Muslim, I don't give a shit; I have no problem with Islam, and I have great respect for the religion. But to compare the fundie branch of Christianity to that of Islam is absolute bullshit, and a direct attack on Christianity, which I don't appreciate.
Show me somebody who sent their children to be blown up.
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But apparently a lot send their kids to "blow up innocent people" school too. Can't say that about fundie Christian parents eh?
Just ban him.
Why, because you have no ability whatsoever to defend yourself? If you're Muslim, I don't give a shit; I have no problem with Islam, and I have great respect for the religion. But to compare the fundie branch of Christianity to that of Islam is absolute bullshit, and a direct attack on Christianity, which I don't appreciate.
We're talking about (well, some of us) how fundies of all types manage to have a dramatic effect on things. You can't deny this. And certainly, across the board, be it by someone who could be your neighbor or someone that wants to blow you up, I have to question the morality of fundamentalists. Obviously I'd rather know an American fundie than a terrorist, but that doesn't mean I should come to appreciate or accept what they are doing to fuck with this country.
They ARE two different things, but BECAUSE they are two different things, it's important to point that out. But ALSO, after seperating the two, coming back to the point that fundamentalism indeed has been successful in promoting change in extremely controversial ways. Ways that are totally unrealted, of course. But you should not bring up the fact that terrorists are the worst fundies in existance and therefore give close to a free pass to the dumbing down of the youth across the country in the name of a bunch of arrogant evangelists.
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Show me somebody who sent their children to be blown up.
The practice of martyrdom is one that traces its beginnings to the Iran/Iraq war, and the parents are very proud of their children who do that. Those who sacrifice themselves are hailed as heroes. On the other hand, it was against military targets - which I think most view as acceptable. It really wasn't until Hezbollah decide to attack civilians with suicide bombers that practice has been met with international distaste.
But these are isolated cases, and no more fucked up than the redneck trailer trash that goes around dragging black people behind pick up trucks in the name of Christ.
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It feels good not to have a religion. (http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/sun1sp.gif)
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But apparently a lot send their kids to "blow up innocent people" school too. Can't say that about fundie Christian parents eh?
Just ban him.
Why, because you have no ability whatsoever to defend yourself? If you're Muslim, I don't give a shit; I have no problem with Islam, and I have great respect for the religion. But to compare the fundie branch of Christianity to that of Islam is absolute bullshit, and a direct attack on Christianity, which I don't appreciate.
We're talking about (well, some of us) how fundies of all types manage to have a dramatic effect on things. You can't deny this. And certainly, across the board, be it by someone who could be your neighbor or someone that wants to blow you up, I have to question the morality of fundamentalists. Obviously I'd rather know an American fundie than a terrorist, but that doesn't mean I should come to appreciate or accept what they are doing to fuck with this country.
They ARE two different things, but BECAUSE they are two different things, it's important to point that out. But ALSO, after seperating the two, coming back to the point that fundamentalism indeed has been successful in promoting change in extremely controversial ways. Ways that are totally unrealted, of course. But you should not bring up the fact that terrorists are the worst fundies in existance and give a free pass to the dumbing down of the youth across the country in the name of a bunch of arrogant fundies.
I'm not giving a free pass to anyone. I've been raised around the fundie movement, I know what it's about, and I know why it's so successful. You can laugh at them all you want, but in the end they're making changes; stuff like the Joshua Project is not a joke.
Yeah they're misguided, and they want to roll back the clock on a lot of things. My point is that comparing both groups is not a good idea, and it only sows confusion.
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No, it's more of an issue of anti Christian bullshit that I see on GAF, and I see here. Whenever someone gets an opening to make some kind of outrageous comparison - be it fundie Christians to fundie Muslims or Christianity to Scientology - they make it, and nothing happens. Well I'm tired of that, and I'm going to push that shit back in people's face every time I see it. If that means I have to be banned each time I do it, so be it.
He brought up a valid point, if you're going to compare fundies to fundies. None are better.
It feels good not to have a religion.
This is how I feel too. I like some core tenants of all religions, and believe in a higher power, but I'm not affiliated with any. You get a more objective view that way.
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Show me somebody who sent their children to be blown up.
The practice of martyrdom is one that traces its beginnings to the Iran/Iraq war, and the parents are very proud of their children who do that. Those who sacrifice themselves are hailed as heroes. On the other hand, it was against military targets - which I think most view as acceptable. It really wasn't until Hezbollah decide to attack civilians with suicide bombers that practice has been met with international distaste.
But these are isolated cases, and no more fucked up than the redneck trailer trash that goes around dragging black people behind pick up trucks in the name of Christ.
Yes, real isolated. I hear about multiple suicide bombings every fucking month of the year, but no worries it's isolated.
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The practice of martyrdom is one that traces its beginnings to the Iran/Iraq war, and the parents are very proud of their children who do that. Those who sacrifice themselves are hailed as heroes. On the other hand, it was against military targets - which I think most view as acceptable. It really wasn't until Hezbollah decide to attack civilians with suicide bombers that practice has been met with international distaste.
But who actually raised a child, not an adult who wants 72 virgins, to blow themselves up?
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Yes, real isolated. I hear about multiple suicide bombings every fucking month of the year, but no worries it's isolated.
Over dozens of countries, by different groups for different reasons? Of course, they're isolated. You're comparing an entire region against a country.
The only place I can think of where suicide bombers are a common occurence nowadays is Iraq, which is in the middle of a CIVIL WAR.
But who actually raised a child, not an adult who wants 72 virgins, to blow themselves up?
If you want names, I can bet you can Google up a parent that actually told their kid to do it. But it won't be ALL Muslim parents or anything, that'd be a gross and sick generalization.
But who needs to tell their kid to do it when you have an entire culture that promotes it?
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Yes, real isolated. I hear about multiple suicide bombings every fucking month of the year, but no worries it's isolated.
Over dozens of countries, by different groups for different reasons? Of course, they're isolated. You're comparing an entire region against a country.
The only place I can think of where suicide bombers are a common occurence nowadays is Iraq, which is in the middle of a CIVIL WAR.
Israel no? -_-
There is no civil war in Iraq; far left liberals have been hoping for one for the last two years, but it hasn't erupted yet.
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No, you don't have have hundreds of dead civilians caught in sectarian violence every week and not have a civil war. I can't believe you'd be that dense, PhoenixDark.
Suicide bombers happen in Israel way more than most people will like, but it's rarely every day or every week unless there's a military campaign in Gaza.
I'd be willing to bet my copy of Gears of War that there are more hate crimes committed by fundamentalist Christians in the United States per year than suicide bombers in Israel. And successful suicide bombers (don't try and cheat!).
But petty homicide and hate crimes by trailer trash is not as interesting as folks blowing themselves up to the media.
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If you want names, I can bet you can Google up a parent that actually told their kid to do it. But it won't be ALL Muslim parents or anything, that'd be a gross and sick generalization.
But who needs to tell their kid to do it when you have an entire culture that promotes it?
That's what I was getting at, and kids don't act cultured, you just brainwash them and throw candy out of a tank.
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No, you don't have have hundreds of dead civilians caught in sectarian violence every week and not have a civil war. I can't believe you'd be that dense, PhoenixDark.
Suicide bombers happen in Israel way more than most people will like, but it's rarely every day or every week unless there's a military campaign in Gaza.
I'd be willing to bet my copy of Gears of War that there are more hate crimes committed by fundamentalist Christians in the United States per year than suicide bombers in Israel. And successful suicide bombers (don't try and cheat!).
But petty homicide and hate crimes by trailer trash is not as interesting as folks blowing themselves up to the media.
That's not a civil war. Until we see both ethnic sides of Iraq over there killing each other off on a large scale, macro level it's not a true civil war. Right now you have a somewhat large group of pussy insurgents over there killing US forces, as well as Iraqis who are helping the US. That's where most of the violence comes from.
Well of course something "petty" isn't going on the same level as a suicide bombing. My god
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Uh, no. PhoenixDark, where are you getting this information from - Dick Cheney?
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Uh, no. PhoenixDark, where are you getting this information from - Dick Cheney?
History, as well as some observations made my military men in the country. It's not a civil war. Has the NY Times even said it was? To my understanding it's the far left who propagates this myth. They've been saying it for 2 years, and it hasn't happened.
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History, as well as some observations made my military men in the country. It's not a civil war. Has the NY Times even said it was? To my understanding it's the far left who propagates this myth. They've been saying it for 2 years, and it hasn't happened.
Who has been saying this for two years? You're so full of it. These are civilians dying, not US or Iraqi soldiers.
There's reports of at least 41 dead in Iraqi violence within the past 24 hours, just two of them American soldiers and most due to sectarian killings between Sunni and Shiite.
Please remove your head out of the sand.
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Lemme put it like this, you have a worthless police department that has no means to keep it's country safe, you have nearly no ministry of interior, you have soldiers that have to wear ski masks when on the job because there job is so dangerous, you have people being regularly thrown into jail for months without any charges or bail, and at the end of the day they still want democracy and are grateful that they have a democratic country but they still can see that the government it corrupt because it run by people's personal agenda's where instead of having knowledgable people being the leaders of the government, the leaders of the rural out-of-touch tribes are running the countries.
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History, as well as some observations made my military men in the country. It's not a civil war. Has the NY Times even said it was? To my understanding it's the far left who propagates this myth. They've been saying it for 2 years, and it hasn't happened.
Who has been saying this for two years? You're so full of it. These are civilians dying, not US or Iraqi soldiers.
There's reports of at least 41 dead in Iraqi violence within the past 24 hours, just two of them American soldiers and most due to sectarian killings between Sunni and Shiite.
Please remove your head out of the sand.
AND WHO is killing them Willco? Come on, you aren't stupid.
These are insurgents. They are killing anyone and everyone in order to make enough noise as possible. Anyone who helps the US is a target. How is that a civil war? This is nothing we haven't seen before. An imperial power occupies another nation, only to be met by extreme violence from a group of people who feel they need to "defend" their country. That's not the definition of civil war son.
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Lemme put it like this, you have a worthless police department that has no means to keep it's country safe, you have nearly no ministry of interior, you have soldiers that have to wear ski masks when on the job because there job is so dangerous, you have people being regularly thrown into jail for months without any charges or bail, and at the end of the day they still want democracy and are grateful that they have a democratic country but they still can see that the government it corrupt because it run by people's personal agenda's where instead of having knowledgable people being the leaders of the government, the leaders of the rural out-of-touch tribes are running the countries.
And this breeds extreme violence among the people, who see a lawless society. THIS IS NOT CIVIL WAR
My god Willco..
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Uh, PhoenixDark, for the last time...
These are Sunni and Shiite Arabs killing one another. Not insurgents. There have been hundreds of deaths just in retaliation killings between the groups, that have absolutely nothing to do with the insurgency or American interests.
Are you really a Bill O'Reilly talking point memo now?
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Uh, PhoenixDark, for the last time...
These are Sunni and Shiite Arabs killing one another. Not insurgents. There have been hundreds of deaths just in retaliation killings between the groups, that have absolutely nothing to do with the insurgency or American interests.
Are you really a Bill O'Reilly talking point memo now?
Not on a large scale; that's the problem with your theory. This has not arrupted into that type of situation.
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And this breeds extreme violence among the people, who see a lawless society. THIS IS NOT CIVIL WAR
My god Willco..
No, the violent groups have enough manpower to actually spread their message that they hate the government and they patrol the streets wearing uniforms.
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When you're dealing with hundreds and hundreds of civilian deaths due to sectarian violence, when does it become a civil war?
Does the body count have to hit a high score before you and the administration will accept it's a civil war, PD?
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When you're dealing with hundreds and hundreds of civilian deaths due to sectarian violence, when does it become a civil war?
Does the body count have to hit a high score before you and the administration will accept it's a civil war, PD?
This is instigated by a high amount of lawless-ness, as well as insurgent activity.
Clearly I'm wasting my time here. Look up "civil war" and get back with me.
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TONIGHT's TALKING POINTS MEMO: IT IS NOT A CIVIL WAR
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civil war:
a war between political factions or regions within the same country.
YOU MEAN LIKE SUNNI AND SHIITE?
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But apparently a lot send their kids to "blow up innocent people" school too. Can't say that about fundie Christian parents eh?
Just ban him.
Why, because you have no ability whatsoever to defend yourself? If you're Muslim, I don't give a shit; I have no problem with Islam, and I have great respect for the religion. But to compare the fundie branch of Christianity to that of Islam is absolute bullshit, and a direct attack on Christianity, which I don't appreciate.
We're talking about (well, some of us) how fundies of all types manage to have a dramatic effect on things. You can't deny this. And certainly, across the board, be it by someone who could be your neighbor or someone that wants to blow you up, I have to question the morality of fundamentalists. Obviously I'd rather know an American fundie than a terrorist, but that doesn't mean I should come to appreciate or accept what they are doing to fuck with this country.
They ARE two different things, but BECAUSE they are two different things, it's important to point that out. But ALSO, after seperating the two, coming back to the point that fundamentalism indeed has been successful in promoting change in extremely controversial ways. Ways that are totally unrealted, of course. But you should not bring up the fact that terrorists are the worst fundies in existance and give a free pass to the dumbing down of the youth across the country in the name of a bunch of arrogant fundies.
I'm not giving a free pass to anyone. I've been raised around the fundie movement, I know what it's about, and I know why it's so successful. You can laugh at them all you want, but in the end they're making changes; stuff like the Joshua Project is not a joke.
Yeah they're misguided, and they want to roll back the clock on a lot of things. My point is that comparing both groups is not a good idea, and it only sows confusion.
No, you only show confusion. You say the Joshua Project is not a joke. WE KNOW. THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.
I'm not comparing them as GROUPS but talking about fundamentalism as a whole and what happens when you apply it to various things. It gets fucked up. There is nothing similar between Christian fundies and Muslim fundies, no... but you're completely missing the point.
While we have certain kinds of fundies overseas plotting to kill us, we have fundies in this country plotting to overtake the religious, moral, and ethical well-being of the US. JUST BECAUSE these people aren't terrorists doesn't mean one should not be concerned.
How many different ways do I need to say it so you aren't confused, PD?
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But apparently a lot send their kids to "blow up innocent people" school too. Can't say that about fundie Christian parents eh?
Just ban him.
Why, because you have no ability whatsoever to defend yourself? If you're Muslim, I don't give a shit; I have no problem with Islam, and I have great respect for the religion. But to compare the fundie branch of Christianity to that of Islam is absolute bullshit, and a direct attack on Christianity, which I don't appreciate.
We're talking about (well, some of us) how fundies of all types manage to have a dramatic effect on things. You can't deny this. And certainly, across the board, be it by someone who could be your neighbor or someone that wants to blow you up, I have to question the morality of fundamentalists. Obviously I'd rather know an American fundie than a terrorist, but that doesn't mean I should come to appreciate or accept what they are doing to fuck with this country.
They ARE two different things, but BECAUSE they are two different things, it's important to point that out. But ALSO, after seperating the two, coming back to the point that fundamentalism indeed has been successful in promoting change in extremely controversial ways. Ways that are totally unrealted, of course. But you should not bring up the fact that terrorists are the worst fundies in existance and give a free pass to the dumbing down of the youth across the country in the name of a bunch of arrogant fundies.
I'm not giving a free pass to anyone. I've been raised around the fundie movement, I know what it's about, and I know why it's so successful. You can laugh at them all you want, but in the end they're making changes; stuff like the Joshua Project is not a joke.
Yeah they're misguided, and they want to roll back the clock on a lot of things. My point is that comparing both groups is not a good idea, and it only sows confusion.
No, you only show confusion. You say the Joshua Project is not a joke. WE KNOW. THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.
I'm not comparing them as GROUPS but talking about fundamentalism as a whole and what happens when you apply it to various things. It gets fucked up. There is nothing similar between Christian fundies and Muslim fundies, no... but you're completely missing the point.
While we have certain kinds of fundies overseas plotting to kill us, we have fundies in this country plotting to overtake the religious, moral, and ethical well-being of the US. JUST BECAUSE these people aren't terrorists doesn't mean one should not be concerned.
How many different ways do I need to say it so you aren't confused, PD?
You could have made your point much clearer early in this thread.
Willco: Screw you I'm going to watch A Beautiful Mind
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Maybe like the main character, you'll become un-crazy.
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Lolz pointing fingers
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Lolz pointing fingers
and laughing.
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muslims are violent and funny. :-*
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So are Jewz lol
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Well, I sat on this post for a week or so but decided to go ahead with it. I was reluctant to post it since I'll undoubtedly get shit for it (and because the thread had by that point devolved into a heated discussion on the particularities of what constitutes civil war :P), but I feel that there's some merit to it:
While there are unquestionably various sociocultural and economic factors which contribute to the incidence of extremism within Islamic/Arab communities, any discussion by Muslims which consists almost exclusively of tu quoques and talks about how maligned Muslims are wherever they go has always struck me as disingenuous in a way. I mean, to hear a Muslim tell it, they (Muslims) are always the oppressed ones, always the victims, always being buffeted by forces beyond their control. While ostensibly calling for an "even-handed approach and a fuller understanding of the situation," they'd basically have you believe that Muslims are always in the right in every regional or ethnic conflict (e.g., Chechnya, Somalia, India etc.). At the very least, they'd have you believe that no one is in the right, and that both sides are always equally culpable; this is most assuredly nonsense, though they are assisted in their cause by a distinct (and pernicious) type of liberal mentality. There are always two sides to every story, but both of these sides are not always equally valid.
Ignoring the sociological/economic/political factors which contribute to the pathology of extremism within Muslim communities, sometimes I tend to look at things like this via analogy:
When you have a friend who is having problems with another friend of hers and she tells you all the specifics of how the other person wronged her, you listen and believe her (barring countervailing evidence), trusting in her character and judgment. However, if this same friend routinely came to you with tales of conflict between her and her other friends, you'd accordingly become less credulous, even if in every instance a plausible sounding rationale was advanced. One or two people can be wrong, but what are the chances that five of her friends were all wrong? A dozen of them? Not very likely. You'd begin to attribute her interpersonal woes to something more fundamental to her -- either her people skills, or her expectations, or whatever.
This is how I view Islam, unfortunately. Not in its entirety, of course -- I've had the pleasure of knowing many good Muslims who were just tremendous people, people whom you could respect. Not all (or even anywhere near a majority of) Muslims are a problem, obviously. Yet it seems that wherever Islam migrates, trouble follows. Discord, violence, and a seeming inability to peacefully coexist with their neighbors seem follow Muslim communities around like a dark cloud. At the very least, this suggests to me that in addition to whatever extrinsic causes may be posited for radicalism (e.g., poverty, lack of education, Machiavellian exploitation on the part of Western powers, estrangement from the national culture in the case of immigrants), we should also take a hard look at the possible elements of Islamic theology/doctrine which make it especially susceptible, among the monotheistic religions, to manipulation and abuse on the part of extremists; this in turn foments further radicalism as they cast their nefarious net among a populace already put "at risk" by the aforementioned sociopolitical factors.
Obviously, none of this is intended to suggest that externalities play no role in breeding extremism -- in fact, they likely play a considerable role. However, as the "sample size" increases, it becomes increasingly difficult to ascribe everything to other people's actions and abuses, to other people's faults and shortcomings. The analogy I employed is by no means a strict one, nor was it especially well thought out -- hell, it might hardly be apposite; however, I feel that there's a grain of truth in there. Essentially, I am of the mind that if people can be just in their dealings and have good relations, then so can be their aggregates (e.g., institutions, nations) provided that certain conditions obtain. Just as realpolitik is not, in my estimation, an inevitability in world affairs (though it's currently the dominant paradigm), extremism -- at least to the extent it currently exists -- is not a foregone conclusion where religion is concerned, no matter what some people would have you believe. Things like radicalism and realpolitik are, at base, personal pathologies writ large.
So there you have it. I figured I'd post this because it's a somewhat different take on things. I don't believe the above to be "the whole story" by any means -- like I said, I look at things in this manner sometimes, not all the time. Analyzing the situation from a purely sociocultural/political perspective -- as I frequently do myself -- also has merit, and arguments proceeding from such bases are generally tenable. Incidentally, let it be known that I am at the very least consistent in my thoughts, since I at times attribute America's disrepute and international/domestic troubles to institutionalized pathologies which are outgrowths of internalized personal failings (e.g., greed, aggression). So don't take this as me singling out Islam; it's simply one part of a broader lens through which I occasionally look at the world. A panoptic view would of course have to incorporate many such perspectives (e.g., cultural, sociological, political, psychological, spiritual etc.), and this post is not intended as a refutation of the most commonly proffered explanations for extremism -- it's just a slightly different take on things.
(And yeah, Dark Shake, you can get your "why the HELL do you write so much !?" post out of the way now -- that's preemptive ownage right there :D :P)
P.S.: Before I get pounced on for the "liberal mentality" quote, allow me to state that the reason I said that is because a certain strain of liberal thought is loathe to draw lines (i.e., make firm judgments), and sometimes certain lines need to be drawn for intellectual honesty and clarity's sake (though the converse -- drawing lines too hastily -- can also be true; the happy medium is, as always, the place to be -- Aristotle was right :P). So that's all I meant by that; I'm obviously not tarring all liberals with that brush.
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I'M NOT READING THAT!!!! :punch
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I'M NOT READING THAT!!!! :punch
Then it wasn't meant for you. ;) :P
(Btw, you should at least read the parenthetical near the end -- you fell right into my trap! :D)
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:o :o :o
NOOOOOOOOOOooooooooOOOOOOOOOOoooooooOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!1111
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:o :o :o
NOOOOOOOOOOooooooooOOOOOOOOOOoooooooOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!1111
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSssssssSSSSSSSSSSS !!!!111 :D Dare I say:
(http://fails.org/owned.jpg)
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When you have a friend who is having problems with another friend of hers and she tells you all the specifics of how the other person wronged her, you listen and believe her (barring countervailing evidence), trusting in her character and judgment. However, if this same friend routinely came to you with tales of conflict between her and her other friends, you'd accordingly become less credulous, even if in every instance a plausible sounding rationale was advanced. One or two people can be wrong, but what are the chances that five of her friends were all wrong? A dozen of them? Not very likely. You'd begin to attribute her interpersonal woes to something more fundamental to her -- either her people skills, or her expectations, or whatever.
Hah; I like that analogy, it also speaks to a tendency of my much-more-liberal friends/etc to see America, or Western interests as a whole, as the sole villain in every conflict or issue.
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Hah; I like that analogy, it also speaks to a tendency of my much-more-liberal friends/etc to see America, or Western interests as a whole, as the sole villain in every conflict or issue.
Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it. :) For the record, though, I don't think it proper for one to look to at things from a single perspective (or, to use your words, to look for a "sole villain"), because there are myriad causes for the great majority of the world's problems; however, being disinclined to examine an issue from a certain viewpoint simply because it conflicts with one's weltanschauung is just as bad imo.
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Loki:
As always a great post.
As for the Liberal stuff, I guess. Im not really a Liberal but I still fault both sides because that's what I have decided. Granted I can be given a political badge by a third party, but what I believe is what I believe.
And I believe Organized Religion while instrumental in any society is a bunch of crap. If god was so awesome he'd get his ass in gear n fix shit. If the church, any church was so awesome they would fuckin stop shooting people in the face.
I stand by my view. I mean there are far more serious issues I wish humanity would turn to by the whole islam vs christianity crap is always front page woo they killed each other again. Yeah like thats news.
It won't be long till its all Mad Max and we're fighting for a gallon of gas held by a lunatic in a hockey mask anyway.
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ah, shades of old-school Loki.
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Loki:
As always a great post.
As for the Liberal stuff, I guess. Im not really a Liberal but I still fault both sides because that's what I have decided. Granted I can be given a political badge by a third party, but what I believe is what I believe.
And I believe Organized Religion while instrumental in any society is a bunch of crap. If god was so awesome he'd get his ass in gear n fix shit. If the church, any church was so awesome they would fuckin stop shooting people in the face.
I stand by my view. I mean there are far more serious issues I wish humanity would turn to by the whole islam vs christianity crap is always front page woo they killed each other again. Yeah like thats news.
It won't be long till its all Mad Max and we're fighting for a gallon of gas held by a lunatic in a hockey mask anyway.
I don't disagree that organized religion as a whole creates a lot of problems, be it Warren Jeffs or Muslim terrorists or - dare I say - Creationism. Yet, I wouldn't discount it as a whole because it does a lot of good for a lot of people.
As for your second part, sure, there are other perils facing humanity, like global warming and Michael Bay's Transformers, but the culture clash is huge and beyond just simply Muslims killing Christians. It's Muslims killing people in the West and how the West reacts to such views and violence. This is shaping our world, not just because of the Pope issue, but how the West deals with the Middle East and its interests. We're at war, and Bush might say against terror, but it really is against Muslim extremists. I think tackling the cultural issues is paramount to creating any kind of peace in that region, even if it takes a millennium.
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As for the Liberal stuff, I guess. Im not really a Liberal but I still fault both sides because that's what I have decided. Granted I can be given a political badge by a third party, but what I believe is what I believe.
And that's totally reasonable. Again, to be clear: both sides might very well be blameworthy in a given situation (and likely are), but not necessarily to the same extent. They may be, but not necessarily. My post was not intended as an endorsement of simpleminded, superficial analysis. Complex issues warrant comprehensive analyses, but these should include all pertinent perspectives, not just those which conform to our biases or political alignment.
ah, shades of old-school Loki.
All you'll get are shades nowadays. ;) :P
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So I've heard. ;)
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(http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38816000/jpg/_38816755_mjind.jpg)
Speaking of God/Allah/Whoever... ;)
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Organized religion is very important. Because of it, a ton of people in desolate third world countries are freely healed, nurtured, directed towards good values, and educated, even if it's barely enough to make them able to read and follow the bible or the qur'an and be "good Christians/Islamists".
Tyrants that govern countries through dictatorships only care about making their country (or themselves) as rich and powerful as possible while providing the lowest amount of care possible to their citizens in order to simply make them survive and help their reign prosper.
It's often a necessary evil. Missionaries also spread good where there'd otherwise be nothing but poverty and chaos. Even if all organized religions are probably rotten beyond belief, they have some altruistic ways that benefit to a lot of otherwise totally helpless people who'd be at the mercy of abominable political systems like communism or of truly evil despots.