Author Topic: The thread of Pig Farmers Fulfilling Ancient Prophecies (the fantasy thread)  (Read 17977 times)

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Eric P

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Michael Moorcock is my absolute favorite Fantasist.  With the creation of the Multiverse it allowed him to create pastiche editions of commonly known tropes and update them, modernize their tellings and address small issues he had with stories.

He's tackled such things as The Grail Quest (The War Hound and the World's Pain, which is probably my most beloved fantasy work), Victorian Romances (The Dancers at the End of Time series), John Carter of Mars (Sojan series), Epic Fantasy both High and Low fantasy of various pagan mythologies or original worlds (Elric, Corum, Hawkwind), and he's even revisited his older works to retell them in newer, altered settings (Jerry Cornelius is the most famous of this, his first story essentially being a retelling of the first Elric story).

My introduction to Moorcock came in the early to mid90s through the White Wolf Publishing Omnibus editions.  Around 11 volumes aimed to collect his work into print in new omnibus editions.  They were large trade with new artwork, short introductions by the author to provide a bit of context, if you were lucky there was some art from previous editions included as well.  If you were unlucky you got a page and a half intro and then you were on your own.

The issue with this is that it's all about context.  Context, Context, Context.  Without it, you have some stories which seem somewhat familiar but you don't know if it's ripping off the original, is merely coincidence or even if Moorcock did it originally and your own experiences are filtered through others writing in reaction to Moorcock.

The new editions of Elric started with yesterday's release of Elric The Stealer of Souls (Chronicles of Sthe Last Emperor of Melnibone) which can be had for $10 through Amazon.  Beware the reviews.  They're written about any one of several different previous editions by previous companies with varying degree of quality of presentation.

Within this edition you'll get new artwork by John Picacio (known for doing a lot of the artwork for Monkey Brain press and other smaller publishing housing) which is good and story specific (unlike the horrible artwork included in other editions like the aforementioned White Wolf editions) with an excellent cover (if the sword is off.  It looks like the eye of sauron is embedded in the hilt).

You get a new seven page forward by Alan Moore (cheekily entitled The Return of the Thin White Duke) which traces a bit of history and personal experience with Moorcock's writings.

You get a fourteen page introduction by Moorcock tracing history and his influences and to whom he was paying homage.  You also get a bit of history of the writing of Elric and he speaks of his time editing New Worlds where he namedrops several of the authors he published and with whome he interacted such as  Ballard, Amis, Distch, Pynchon to give a bit of context as to the crowds he was running with and what he was aiming for with his works.

You get the the essay "Putting a Name On It" where in he gives birth to the term Epic Fantasy and sets genre boundaries while discussing who came before him and why they are or are not Epic Fantasy.

You get the first two volumes of the Elric saga, The Stealer of Souls and Stormbringer.  The Stealer of Souls exists without pretense of an overall story arc.  It seeks to be episodic like the early Conan novels though in the mid90s, he updated the stories to provide a bit more flavor to tie them together so that if you read it now you have a sense of the journey of Elric that originally only became evident with Stormbringer.  I can't speak to which is better, the unadulterated or the these because I haven't read the original texts.  My introduction was through the "updated" versions and so my preference would probably be tainted by which edition I had read first.

Melnibone' is a dark place.  It exists before history of after history.  It doesn't matter.  It's savage, dark, with Gods who take no interest in the affairs of man, either benign nor malignant.  The world was ruled for a thousand years by Elric's people, yet they grew weary of it and retreated to their island paradise, outside of man.  The new kingdoms rose up and warred and fell and yet Melnibone' endured, decadent, removed from its humanity, hated by the new kingdoms.

There are two factions of gods at war within the world.  Law and Chaos.  Neither seeking to win, for if Chaos reigns then entropy will eventually shatter the whole of existence and the lords of Chaos would have no one and nowhere to rule, and they themselves would face certain extinction.  If law were to succeed then all would be stasis and even the gods of law would be unable to move for the sheer rigidity of their existence. 

Elric, through tradition set by his forefather's sacrifices, sides with Chaos, though seeks to know if there is something else outside of the two sides.  If Law and Chaos are themselves merely pawns in a greater existence.  He had been usurped twice to the throne by his own brother, Yyrkoon who wields Mournblade, the runed black sword which is companion to Stormbringer.  His sister, Cymoril, cast into a deep slumber of the soul by her Yyrkoon as protection from Elric's revenge.

It is in the beginning of The Stealer of Souls that Elric raises the largest fleet ever assembled to attack the island paradise of Imrryr, the sleeping city, once capital of Melnibone'...

« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 03:00:53 PM by Eric P »
Tonya

Eric P

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2008, 10:49:32 AM »
oh!  you also get a short introduction which originally preceded each tale upon original publication.  Just a blurb written by a magazine editor, really.

You also get Letters and Miscellany, which includes the first published review of Stormbringer by Alan Forrest, who was not a sci-fi/fantasy fandom member, but rather the "literary editor of a national newspaper" you also get a letter written by Anthony Skene whose creation Monsieur Zenith was the direct inspiration for Elric.

Tonya

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2013, 02:34:26 AM »
epic bump time

I was just about to ask what a good Moorcock starting point is when I decided to just search and look for an Eric P post; didn't expect an entire thread. My concern was indeed about the Amazon reviews, which you addressed luckily. I'll be buying this soon.

Also I'm curious about The Swords trilogy and whether I should start with Elric first.
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nudemacusers

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2013, 02:38:17 AM »
tl;dr but i appreciate the enthusiasm so i'll pick one of these up. I've been looking for good fantasy lately.
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Eric P

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2013, 06:59:21 AM »
epic bump time

I was just about to ask what a good Moorcock starting point is when I decided to just search and look for an Eric P post; didn't expect an entire thread. My concern was indeed about the Amazon reviews, which you addressed luckily. I'll be buying this soon.

Also I'm curious about The Swords trilogy and whether I should start with Elric first.

Swords trilogy is good but I think that Elric is better.
Tonya

chronovore

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2013, 08:03:59 PM »
I think I've got all of these in storage in my current home here. Silver-bordered paperbacks from the Berkley Ace mass market release. The cover art is gorgeous -- FF's Amano is clearly lifting from the same sources: Klimt and Schiele.

Verdigris Murder

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2013, 06:07:29 PM »
Elric P
:{]

Verdigris Murder

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2013, 06:09:24 PM »
I can't find the parents theard by lennisedy (?). I have a post, but the therad escapes the search engine. What's the best way of locating it?
:{]

Verdigris Murder

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2013, 06:11:02 PM »
Google basically throws up stuff about bore water. Wtf
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Verdigris Murder

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2013, 06:11:27 PM »
When searching for the bore and parenting.
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chronovore

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2013, 03:19:31 AM »
You should start a new thread on parenting.

I got curious, so I tried by starting with spelling her name correctly.

Lennedsay's stuff on her wack in-laws is posted through several different threads, none of which are actually on parenting, except the "crusty bun" thread, and her birthday thread.

StealthFan

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2013, 08:19:52 AM »
I don't understand this thread at all. It's like a fever dream. What is this?
reckt

Eric P

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2013, 12:25:11 AM »
It's not a bad way to start.  it's how most people started.

Tonya

Eric P

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2013, 05:55:47 AM »
Unless you got it cheap, I'd have gone for one of the newer editions I mentioned up thread, to be honest.

nothing wrong with that book (i own it) but i think that the newer editions are better presentations of the material.

Tonya

Joe Molotov

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2013, 05:31:57 PM »
I'll probably get that Stealer of Souls one too, with all the essays and shit. I read Epic Pooh today and it was etherous.

Avoid the sequel, Epic Mickey.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2013, 12:45:09 PM »
I started with The Eternal Champion, which I really enjoyed. I hadn't really read any "transported to a parallel universe" fantasy novels, outside of the first Thomas Covenant novel. It's really gud, breh. Very interesting anti-hero.

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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2013, 12:54:53 PM »
Ah forgot about Narnia  :lol

sidenote: The Silver Chair is the best in that series, and the darkest.
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nudemacusers

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2013, 01:04:59 PM »
Have you read any of the Earthsea series? I really enjoyed them.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2013, 01:14:21 PM »
I still enjoy LOTR for the worldbuilding which is top notch, among other things. But in terms of story I look at it very different now, compared to when I was a kid. It's one of (not The, as Eric P will point out in all caps) the original originators, but I moved beyond good v bad stuff really quickly. And while many argue the characters make LOTR, to me...many of the characters aren't that great... *runs*

LOTR, Earthsea, and Narnia introduced me to the genre, then I moved on to some Feist, R. A. Salvatore and later Harry Potter. Then I read The Shadow of the Torturer...
 :holeup :lawd :gladbron

Then obviously ASOIAF, some Malazan, etc.

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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2013, 01:27:37 PM »
The Fencer trilogy was recommended in a thread a few years back, and like a month later I found them at a Salvation Army. I enjoyed it.

I'm now delving into older low fantasy stuff I missed, such as Moorcock and Stephen R. Donaldson. But I'm also going to look into some newer high fantasy like The Way of Kings, which sounds good.

Have you read the Gormenghast series? :bow
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2013, 01:37:25 PM »
I guess this has become a general fantasy thread  :jawalrus

thoughts on ASOIAF? Our friendship is at stake.
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Eric P

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2013, 01:43:28 PM »
Von Bek is crucial, I think.  The Warhound and the World's Pain is probably my favorite of Moorcock's books.

Everyone who likes fantasy should read Parker's The Folding Knife.  Even people who don't like fantasy should read it as there's not much fantastical to it.  It's more like alternative history.

I have softened on fantasy as a genre, but hold it to much higher standards than any of my other genre works.  Probably because the lows of Fantasy grate on me far more than the crutches of things like horror, detective fiction etc.

Some recent Fantasy I've liked:

Jagannath by Karin Tidbeck short fiction collection of beautiful and dark tales

The Shining Girls by Lauren Buekes- this is an amalgamation of many different genres touching on horror, sci-fi and fantasy, but this tale of a woman searching for a serial killer who operates through time is damn good "low" fantasy without the trappings of medieval that so bog down the genre.

Black Juice - Margo Lanangan - short story collection of more dark low fantasy tales

Windeye - Brian Evenson - another short story collection of fantasy works that edge towards horror

The Brides of Rollrock Island - Margo Lanangan   - on an island, there are men who take their wives from the sea.  this book is a series of vignettes about how this destroys the men of the island.  it's really gripping novel from the author of Black Juice

Death Sentences - Kawamata Chiaki - i love books which talk about the dangers present in just the existence of language as a concept and this surreal modern Japanese Fantasy captures it quite well.



« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 01:53:29 PM by Eric P »
Tonya

Eric P

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2013, 01:54:08 PM »
"men building things" is a great and overlooked genre.
Tonya

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2013, 01:59:18 PM »
dat T-Rex
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2013, 02:25:00 PM »
Sounds like some shit that Dennis Dyack would write. Just because you're putting a twist on generic tropes doesn't mean you aren't using generic tropes. But maybe the storytelling is good enough to overcome this.
:kobeyuck
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D3RANG3D

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I am glad to see Michael Moorcock getting some love I always see book recommendations on gaf, and he never gets mentioned. I have Elric Saga 1-4 with the superior art do I need to rebuy these reprints/reduxes?

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I was using Elric avatars before they were cool. :smug
[close]
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 04:20:43 PM by D3RANG3D »

Eric P

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see first post
Tonya

D3RANG3D

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see first post

tl;dr

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yyrkoon is Elric's cousin. :shaq
[close]
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 04:28:46 PM by D3RANG3D »

Mandark

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Why is there a phantom post from Eschaton that only shows up when you reply to the thread?

demi halp

chronovore

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Re: Why You Should Purchase the new Elric Editions
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2013, 02:28:29 AM »
I still enjoy LOTR for the worldbuilding which is top notch, among other things. But in terms of story I look at it very different now, compared to when I was a kid. It's one of (not The, as Eric P will point out in all caps) the original originators, but I moved beyond good v bad stuff really quickly. And while many argue the characters make LOTR, to me...many of the characters aren't that great... *runs*

LOTR, Earthsea, and Narnia introduced me to the genre, then I moved on to some Feist, R. A. Salvatore and later Harry Potter. Then I read The Shadow of the Torturer...
 :holeup :lawd :gladbron

Then obviously ASOIAF, some Malazan, etc.

I loved the Urth of the New Sun series, though I have some trouble relating to the protagonist -- which I think is intentional.

One of This Vestal Coils also really liked The Knight and I think The Wizard by Gene Wolfe.

Phoenix Dark

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another epic bump

All the hype over Words Of Radiance has finally convinced me to buy The Way of Kings. I'll start it soon. Thoughts on Sanderson? I don't think he's bad, but I definitely feel like he's...bland. I'm just basing this off the Mistborn books. His writing seems to just serve to get you from A to B, and his characters are often one dimensional. But I've heard good things about Way Of Kings, so we'll see if he has improved.

One of my favorite things about Moorcock, Martin, and others is how they bring characters to life. Even if it's not some emotionally complex character, a good writer can give him/her a personality, characteristics, etc.
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Eric P

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Clarksworld has put up an excellent KJ Parker story about a wizard duel.  Though since it's a KJ Parker story, there's a nearly singular lack of wizardry

http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/parker_10_14_reprint/

I just recently read this in Academic Exercises and enjoyed it
Tonya

Phoenix Dark

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Bumping so we can stop shitting up the GoT thread with book talk.

LOTR's strength is the world building, which is excellent. However I'd agree the characterization and some of the dialogue is less so impressive to say the least.

Name Of The Wind is amazing. I haven't checked out the second book; heard it was disappointing.

Gormenghast :lawd
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studyguy

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LOTR is similar to WoT in that regard. These old cacs spend so much time making the world seem fantastical that they just said fuck it here's the players. They're not as deep as a low fantasy title because, fuck it you know where this is going. We laid it out, here's the big bad evil and here's the good guys. There's no real grey in either title 99% of the time, sure they might switch sides at times or betray someone but in general those old high fantasy tropes follow a predictable path. I mean it is what it is and they were works of their time so whatev.


Also Wise Man's Fear isn't terrible but it is real, real cringe. Like this dude is out here doing all kinds of gary stu shit. I think it's still worth reading, but just if you enjoy all the fuckery he gets into. Just be aware that he's out here basically making girls swoon left and right n shit.

Mentioned it before, Powder Mage series.
If you haven't fucked with it
:ufup

I also read Bloodsong last year.
That book should have been a one off. The first book is from the viewpoint of the lead, concise and it works well.
The second book is fucking
:trash :trash :trash :trash :trash


Also did you actually read Way of Kings in the end PD?
I swear that dude is basically making screenplays and passing them off as books.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 11:25:25 AM by studyguy »
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Phoenix Dark

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Calling LOTR a children's book seems a bit disingenuous. Yea at one point it was just a collection of stories for his kid, but Tolkien's correspondents with his publishers suggest he was aiming beyond their demand for "another Hobbit book." The Hobbit is clearly a "children's book" in terms of who Tolkien aimed it at, however outside of the first chapter LOTR is far from something for kids.
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Madrun Badrun

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LOTR isn't really a childrens book.

Madrun Badrun

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Ya but most people I knew were reading hitch hikers and 1984 around the same age.  Just cause the book attracts kids attention doesn't make it a book aimed at kids.

Steve Contra

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Hobbit is definitely a kid's book.  Lord of the Rings is aimed at slightly older folks.  Consequently the Hobbit is so much better than the Lord of the Rings.
vin

Phoenix Dark

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Christians were all over the LOTR shit breh. I know this because when I was homeschooled we'd get a catalog every few months in the mail that listed various homeschool friendly books. Most of it was curriculum stuff but the fiction and non-fiction list included stuff like LOTR, Atlas Shrugged, and The Giver. Yes, The Giver. Which was billed as a great look at why communism/socialism/every ism cannot work.

there were also multiple books about why Harry Potter was dangerous.

:neogaf my childhood brehs
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jakefromstatefarm

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Claiming 1984 isnt also for children :gurl

jakefromstatefarm

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Shitting on lotr for being predictable high fantasy is like shitting on I love Lucy because three camera sitcoms are played out

Phoenix Dark

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You forgot about The Chronicles Of Narnia breh.
:hitler

one of my favorite past times was once forcing my Christian friends to explain why Narnia was ok despite having magic, and also to explain the difference between Aslan dying to save that fuckboy Edmund and young Lily Potter dying to save Harry. The only better sport for a young Christian/troll was asking Jehova's Witnesses how they knew they were really going to heaven.
:lawd

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Madrun Badrun

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PD, you make me glad I got the childhood I got.

Phoenix Dark

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In terms of Narnia...The Silver Chair is the best and still holds up well. I remember the last book being trashed. By that time the Christian allegories were too blatant and began taking away from the plot. Susan essentially going to hell for wearing makeup and talking to boys....
:kobeyuck

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chronovore

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Wondering about wandering into this thread, as I half-suscpect Esch is troll-LOL-ling Tolkien enthusiasts with this kiddy stuff.

Anyway, I finished Lies of Locke Lamora a month ago, and it was awesome. Anyone else read it?

Rothfuss loved it, and claims it’s a better book than his own Name of the Wind, but it’s not clear if he’s playing the false-humbleness card, or if it’s legitimately better, so I’ll be reading it soon to settle the debate in my own noggin.

studyguy

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I read Lies of Locke Lamora.
I can't for the life of me remember it though, it's been fucking years.
I enjoyed it though, especially that last fight. They did a nice job of making the group of them feel like genuine friends.
pause

Friend leant me the first three Percy Jackson books. Really liked the Lightning Thief, but still haven't finished Sea of Monsters cause it feels like such a slog.

bluemax

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When I was in 4th grade I read Tad Williams Sorrow, Memory, Thorn trilogy. I wonder if those books are any good or if I was just a book devouring nerd (I finished The Lord of the Rings the previous year).

Also one thing that irks me in ASOIAF that isn't mentioned enough (and ironically I saw some Reddit neck beard complaining about how this happens in the tv show) is the way people 1000s of miles away magically know when a major event happened. There's no fucking sense of time in those books. Gurm writes 5000 words about food and stupid fucking flags and then hand waves the fact that everyone has instant, reliable, text messaging.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 10:34:27 PM by bluemax »
NO

Kara

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Claiming 1984 isnt also for children :gurl

:mynicca

One of the few authors whose book with talking animals is more mature than their other works.

Dickie Dee

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Also one thing that irks me in ASOIAF that isn't mentioned enough (and ironically I saw some Reddit neck beard complaining about how this happens in the tv show) is the way people 1000s of miles away magically know when a major event happened. There's no fucking sense of time in those books. Gurm writes 5000 words about food and stupid fucking flags and then hand waves the fact that everyone has instant, reliable, text messaging.

huh, why are you assuming the simultaneity of distant events of anything in the books or in the show? nothing in the narrative or plot has ever asked that
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Phoenix Dark

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Also one thing that irks me in ASOIAF that isn't mentioned enough (and ironically I saw some Reddit neck beard complaining about how this happens in the tv show) is the way people 1000s of miles away magically know when a major event happened. There's no fucking sense of time in those books. Gurm writes 5000 words about food and stupid fucking flags and then hand waves the fact that everyone has instant, reliable, text messaging.
Examples? Didn't take a decent amount of time for Tyrion to hear about the Red Wedding for instance. Likewise Robert/Varys put out a hit on Varys that doesn't reach Essos until months later.
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Dickie Dee

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Seriously

You're going to have to define "instant" as something other than something happening then the next chapter taking place a bit aways knowing that thing happened. Especially when we're into the territory where the last two books were mostly happening concurrently.
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Joe Molotov

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I think the most recent fantasy books that I read that I really enjoyed were The Curse of Chalion and the sequel Paladin of Souls. Those were good books. Nothing's really grabbed my interest in the past few years.

Oh wait, there's also Clive Barker's Abarat series. I forget that I'm still reading that when it takes like 7 years in between sequels.
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bluemax

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Seriously (Image removed from quote.)

You're going to have to define "instant" as something other than something happening then the next chapter taking place a bit aways knowing that thing happened. Especially when we're into the territory where the last two books were mostly happening concurrently.

But that's exactly what I'm talking about. Something world changing happens a continent away and the next chapter everyone knows exactly what happened. Since George never really discusses the passage of time it is hard to understand how long it takes information to get anywhere. No I don't have specific examples because I haven't slavishly devoted my adult life to defending his lardiness and haven't committed the books to memory.
NO

Phoenix Dark

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Gotta give you an L for this bluemax...

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bluemax

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Gotta give you an L for this bluemax...

Are you really gonna make me spend my small amount of free time searching for proof?
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Dickie Dee

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The POV plot structure is only mildly non-linear, it's not obtuse. I'm trying to wrap my head around what you aren't getting.

If GRRM doesn't discuss the passage of time, what are these instant messages that you are complaining and why are they "instant"?

« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 04:18:34 AM by Mamacint »
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Dickie Dee

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Ravens, but yeah. Actually the books and show explain pretty clearly the whole Maester/Raven system, or at least we seem to get a lot of first hand experience with them at Castle Black.

News would travel continents in the time it takes a ship to cross the narrow seas. General word of mouth would be enough, not even getting into Varys' spynetwork.
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Phoenix Dark

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In TWOW it's also explained that

minor non-spoiler but I'll tag it anyway:
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Most ravens can only travel to and from one castle. So for instance a raven could get from Castle Black to Winterfell, but that same raven couldn't then fly to The Twins. It's very rare to find a raven intelligent enough to travel to multiple castles.
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An example of time passing: Catelyn arresting Tyrion. It took awhile for word to reach KL. Yoren, who was initially traveling with Tyrion, likely got from the Riverlands to King's Landing in a month; for reference it took King Robert two months to travel from KL to Winterfell, and they were slowed by the large caravans n shit.


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Madrun Badrun

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Gardens of the Moon is such a better read the second time through.