Evilbore's Official Political\Media Crap Thread

[demi]

haha, i was reading an article on TRON Guy and I click his LiveJournal... turns out he's a republitard, talkin about how Obama is gonna ruin America, building guns before a ban is passed, all that

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com/

Funny shit.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Might as well let Lieberman stay.  He's a backstabber and a coward who realized that he fucked up now, assuming that Republicans would either be tied or have a majority in the Senate during his tenure there.  Now that he backpeddled, might as well keep him until a supermajority can be made without him, and then just exclude him.

Then for 2012, he will get beaten in the Senate race.

[siamesedreamer]

Begich is up by like 800 now.

So, if Franken can continue to produce fabricated ballots from the back seat of cars, then the GA runoff will prove to be ginormous. From what I've seen so far, the ads both candidates are running here are all retreads of the general election ads. IMO the best ad someone can run is to put the date of the runoff in the ad cuz I suspect most voters have no idea when it is. Heck, I'm more tuned in than most and I have no idea when it is...

[MrAngryFace]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/13/nh-county-treasurer-unsea_n_143559.html -- lol old republicans

[Mandark]

Nothing. But bluntly, what does desert have anything to with it? People are born into advantageous situations which are not of their making, but why should they reduce those advantages? There is no logical, non-hypothetical reason.

Malek took a ban so I can't really respond to him here, but this is a slightly fancy way of saying "Life isn't fair," then grunting and scratching your groin.

Forgive me if I'm going down a slippery slope here, but is your argument that every well-off country should be obligated to open its borders and take unlimited numbers of immigrants from poorer countries simply because their standard of living is higher?

Nope.  My argument is that anti-immigrant folks need an argument.

Why should someone who is willing to follow the law and pay their taxes not be allowed to live within the boundaries of the US?

Why should we preserve a system that privileges one class of person over another because of where they were born?

Real talk.

[MrAngryFace]

Agreed. If theyre payin taxes I dont give a fuck. There's people born here that try to get OUT of paying taxes, and I would trade them in a second for an immigrant who is willing to pay taxes.

[Human Snorenado]

Begich is up by like 800 now.

So, if Franken can continue to produce fabricated ballots from the back seat of cars, then the GA runoff will prove to be ginormous. From what I've seen so far, the ads both candidates are running here are all retreads of the general election ads. IMO the best ad someone can run is to put the date of the runoff in the ad cuz I suspect most voters have no idea when it is. Heck, I'm more tuned in than most and I have no idea when it is...

Tsc tsc, you should know better.  In his 2002 election, Coleman added about 9k votes in the re-canvass.  In 2006, Klobuchar netted more than 1k.  This is not unheard of.

And the run-off is December 2nd.

[MrAngryFace]

hahah Palin's bullshit today:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/11/13/1672527.aspx

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/27699081#27699081

[Phoenix Dark]

Rahm Emanuel's father, asked about whether his hire signaled closer ties to Israel, said: "Obviously he’ll influence the President to be pro-Israel. Why wouldn’t he? What is he, an Arab? He’s not going to be mopping floors at the White House."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1108/Rahms_fathers_words.html?showall

I find these comments absolutely reprehensible and demand Mandark and Willco denounce them immediately.

[Mandark]

A wingnut I know directed me to Ben Shapiro's "A Jewish Case Against Obama" which is basically a list of the alleged anti-semites (Zbignew Brzezinski!  Samantha Power!  Robert Malley!) Obama's associated with.

I somehow doubt he'll be soothed by the selection of Emanuel.

He also thinks that Obama will raise taxes on people making $22,000 by about $750, and that the Clintons had someone killed right before the 92 election and then had it ruled a suicide by the Little Rock ME.

I'm finding it really hard to deal with him without making him super-defensive.  I mean, how do you explain to someone that something they believe is factually wrong if they don't want to hear it?  I'd be fine with him believing crazy stuff but he keeps trying to evangelize with me.

[MrAngryFace]

Its pretty safe to say the white house will be pro-israel no matter who is chief o staff

[Human Snorenado]

Mandark:  when I am faced with friends or acquaintances who I think should otherwise know better than to be saying insane things, I generally tell them that "I'm sorry, but I'm not going to carry on a conversation with someone who is basing their side of an argument on falsities."  They either get offended (most of the time) or try to put it another way, but it's the end of my part of the conversation.  Don't feed the trolls!

[Mandark]

I could do that if the person was 1) a friend and 2) smart enough to deserve higher expectations.  This guy is just kind of an idiot who I have a work relationship with.  It goes kind of like this:

"Did you know that Obama's going to raise taxes?  It'll go down the first year but then he'll let all the Bush tax cuts expire.  If you make $22,000 your tax bill will go up $750."

"I dunno, Dave.  His proposal has always been to keep the Bush cuts on income except for the top two rates, and I checked at the Tax Policy Center..."

"My friend told me this and he's a CPA.  C P A!  I think he has some credibility!"



When I told him that no Clinton bodyguards were murdered right before the 92 election, he said "I saw it on PBS!  P B S!  Channel 22!  I think they have some credibility!"  It's becoming a pattern.

[Phoenix Dark]

CPA? Well that changes everything

[Human Snorenado]

Hrmm, you're just obviously more polite to idiots than I am.  If after trying to talk to someone in an intelligent manner they continue to rely upon dumb arguments I just tell them point blank I have no intention of talking to someone who refuses to debate in the realm of reality.

Sure it's rude, but oh well.  Unless this guy is your boss or something I don't see the big deal.

[Human Snorenado]

How the Right Wing Noise Machine works.

Psst... they DO get talking points from the White House, RNC, etc.  I wonder where they'll be getting them from now!

[Mandark]

I generally try to smooth things over when politics comes up in person.  The internet is my outlet for being able to call a spade a spade.

It's a lot easier when you're talking about opinions.  You just break out the "I see where you're coming from..." before rephrasing what the other person is saying, and they'll feel like they've been heard.  That's a very big deal.

When someone's just making up shit, that's different.  Your tack is probably about what he deserves, but oh well.

[Eric P]

How the Right Wing Noise Machine works.

Psst... they DO get talking points from the White House, RNC, etc.  I wonder where they'll be getting them from now!

i am shocked SHOCKED by this revelation

[MrAngryFace]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/13/sarah-palin-baffles-repor_n_143620.html

[Howard Alan Treesong]

I'm saddened but not surprised we're still hearing about Sarah Palin

but I kind of thought that Joe the Plumber's days were numbered

[recursivelyenumerable]

It's becoming a pattern.

ooh, does he provide an API whereby third-parties can register our own TLAs?

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Palin isn't even worth discussing.

[Phoenix Dark]

Palin isn't even worth discussing.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/1108/An_awkward_press_conference.html
NEVER GONNA GIVE YOU UP

[MrAngryFace]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/what-doesnt-kill-the-far_b_143398.html -- OPED piece that rounds up some of the more insane republican reactions to Obama's victory haha

[Phoenix Dark]

"Damn dems stole the election like they always do. GOD wanted McCain and Palin in the White House. That's why it's called THE WHITE HOUSE."

ACORN>God 

[Oblivion]

Palin isn't even worth discussing.

Also people shouldn't worry about her being President in 2012. Her greatest asset (her milf status) will disappear by then, since 4 years is like 75 in women time.

[Eric P]

, since 4 years is like 75 in women time.

awesomeawesomeawsome

stealing that.

[Human Snorenado]

Indeed, the difference between 44 and 48 for a woman is the difference between Diane Lane and Susan Sarandon- ie, I want to fuck you vs. I respect your work.

[Phoenix Dark]

 

[Fresh Prince]

Hasselback 2016

[MrAngryFace]

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/obama_win_causes_obsessive

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/voting_machines_elect_one_of

[Mandark]

Malek is not going to be happy when he comes back and finds out you think he's siamesedreamer.

The point isn't that there are no negative social effects from immigration.  The point is that restrictions on immigration, while we take them for granted, are actually very harsh restrictions on people's freedom.

You're telling people "Because of where you were born, you're not allowed to live in this country.  Period."  This isn't tinkering around the edges with tax incentives.  This is kind of a very big deal, and I expect extraordinary justifications for extraordinary measures.

So if the net benefit/cost is even close (and there are plenty of economic arguments for immigration), I'm going to side with not treating a change of address like a felony.

[recursivelyenumerable]

I'm still somewhat traumatized by my experience getting into Canada last month

[laesperanzapaz]

Malek is not going to be happy when he comes back and finds out you think he's siamesedreamer.

The point isn't that there are no negative social effects from immigration.  The point is that restrictions on immigration, while we take them for granted, are actually very harsh restrictions on people's freedom.

You're telling people "Because of where you were born, you're not allowed to live in this country.  Period."  This isn't tinkering around the edges with tax incentives.  This is kind of a very big deal, and I expect extraordinary justifications for extraordinary measures.

So if the net benefit/cost is even close (and there are plenty of economic arguments for immigration), I'm going to side with not treating a change of address like a felony.

not to go against you or anything, but "and there are plenty of economic arguments for immigration" can you name all of them?

[MrAngryFace]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/14/obamas-transparent-presid_n_143805.html

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I think that will be awesome.

[MrAngryFace]

on weeks where there isnt much to say it'll just be a video of him getting hit in the nuts with a football

[Howard Alan Treesong]

http://rahmfacts.com/dossier.html

Unlike Chuck Norris Facts, these are all true.

[Phoenix Dark]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/14/clinton-met-with-obama-ab_n_143810.html

Just when republicans thought the Clintons were permanently vanquished. 

[Mandark]

not to go against you or anything, but "and there are plenty of economic arguments for immigration" can you name all of them?

Hell no I can't name all of them.  What kind of standard is that?

The general argument in favor of the free movement of labor is the same as for the free movement of goods or capital.  It makes for a higher overall growth rate.

The downside, like with free trade, is that certain types of workers can wind up being "losers", even if the overall effect on the economy is positive.  The effects are fairly small both ways, which isn't surprising.  The driving force behind the immigration debate isn't based in a rational understanding of economics.



PD: At this point, you'd think the GOP would be full of experts on being permanently vanquished.


MAF:  Organizing people to push for policy is harder than organizing them for an election, especially when they're not already in interest groups (Obama talks about this in his book, plug plug).  I think it's pretty awesome that he's trying, though.

Because of his margin of victory and the way he ran his campaign, nobody has a really strong claim on him.  There isn't one group that can say "Without us, you woulda been sunk."

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

The biggest problem with immigration is that people don't want brown people living in their neighborhoods and learning a new language.

A lot of small packing plant towns are dealing with immigrants and the white people are handling it poorly.  Most white families are having their kids go to other schools or just up and leaving altogether.  A lot of "English First" businesses are faltering, and those who are now have everything bilingual are doing pretty well.  Things aren't perfect because those with higher incomes are moving out and a lot of property tax driven initiatives (like schooling) are suffering with these little white flights.  Not really sure what is going to happen with them in the long run.  A lot of population decreases but maybe white people will move in or Hispanic communities will see increases in household income.

[Phoenix Dark]

What do you think about her being SoS? Is it a good fit in your opinion, perhaps more so than Kerry or Richardson, or worse?

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I think its a good choice.

I like the choice of Emanuel and Clinton.  Emanuel was a risky choice, considering he once was employed for Fannie Mae but he's a guy that can get shit done.  Clinton is experienced and knows how Washington works.  Considering how she's pretty party-minded, I don't expect any grudges between her and Obama.  I think she also likes the idea of ending her political career on a good note.  She might have wanted to be President but if Obama turns out to be a winner, she can be proud knowing that she played a key role in getting the US back on track, especially the situation that Obama will get into on January 20th.

She hasn't accepted yet but I think she is a solid choice.  Republicans will bitch who gives a fuck about them anyway.  Obama will never please them so they shouldn't even be seriously considered.  If they want to play fair, they can be included.  If they just want to bitch, lie, and manipulate, then they can go fuck themselves.  Most Republicans already believe that Rahm single handedly brought down Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

[laesperanzapaz]

not to go against you or anything, but "and there are plenty of economic arguments for immigration" can you name all of them?

Hell no I can't name all of them.  What kind of standard is that?

The general argument in favor of the free movement of labor is the same as for the free movement of goods or capital.  It makes for a higher overall growth rate.

The downside, like with free trade, is that certain types of workers can wind up being "losers", even if the overall effect on the economy is positive.  The effects are fairly small both ways, which isn't surprising.  The driving force behind the immigration debate isn't based in a rational understanding of economics.

um, free trade does not consequences whose 'effects are fairly small.'  Free trade benefits big time US consumers such as ourselves, while fucking the working class of US and Canada [job loss] and Mexico [what can only be described as 19th-century style working life].   Depends in which end of the barrel you face. I'm not saying I oppose either free trade or free open immigration, just so you know.

[Mandark]

I don't have a clue what I'm talking about but see if that stops me!

Fair enough.

[Mandark]

I thought about treating that Lou Dobbs Lite mercantilist rant seriously, but then nah.

You'd stop outsourcing?  How'd that work, guy?

[Mandark]

Those are your "massive penalties?"  Sounds like you're walking that one back a bit, kid.

[Fresh Prince]

Yeah. The ideas of "globalism" and "free world trade" seem pretty attractive until you start looking at things like the outsourcing of jobs. As nice as it would be to see a majority middle class in India, China and other countries, I don't support that if it comes with a general standard of living decrease in America. Sorry if that's selfish, but countries need to look after their own before they worry the globe.

Obama needs to make it economically nonviable to outsource by imposing massive penalties on companies who outsource. We can't keep losing hundreds of thousands of jobs a month, even if outsourcing does have a positive effect on India and other countries.

Ideally the American/Western workfore should have moved away from production and manufacturing into service, intellectual property jobs and other higher salary jobs etc. Ideally. 

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

[Human Snorenado]

What do you think about her being SoS? Is it a good fit in your opinion, perhaps more so than Kerry or Richardson, or worse?

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, better to have someone inside the tent pissing out than outside pissing in, etc etc etc.  It's a very shrewd move.  Hillary is not going to be spearheading health care- Baucus chairs that committee and Teddy wants it to be his last signature piece of legislation.  Since she's going to be shut out of that, better for her to be put inside the tent and under Obama's "control" than for her to be running around the Senate potentially causing trouble and potentially planning to run in 2012 if Obama screws up.  This way if he goes down in flames she does too.  Sneaky!  I likey.

[Mandark]

Substance:  If ending the loophole on unrepatriated earnings, which would mean effectively taxing them at the 35% US corporate rate, counts as "massive penalties", then taxing domestic earnings by the legal rate would also count as "massive penalties".

Besides, outsourcing is just an American company hiring a foreign worker.  Doesn't cover foreign companies.  You want to deal with that, it involves erecting some pretty massive barriers, which means other countries will retaliate and seal off their markets and pull any jobs they had in the US (which from their perspective are "outsourced").

You start a protectionist war like that and it's a bad cycle that doesn't help the US economy or living standards one bit.  This is basic and I shouldn't have to explain it, not in the least because it makes me sound like a damn neoliberal stooge.



Meta:  Real life is where I take care not to bruise the egos of people spouting off in ignorance.  The internet is where I get to relax, be honest, and not worry about it.

If you don't like the way I react to your posts then write better posts.  Maybe I'll feel bad down the road (it's certainly happened before) but I already know I'm not being nice.  Telling me so won't make me stop.

[Fresh Prince]

As an engineer I have done very little regarding macroeconomics but it's obvious production and manufacturing are low gain economic activities for a country as a whole. Factory, labouring jobs will always exist but people (especially younger people) need to realise that these lower paid lower skilled jobs aren't sustainable. If it's not outsourcing, it's 457 visa or whatever you have in the USA.

I'm willing to bet that in most Free Trade agreements the US has gotten the better end of the bargain. Other countries are at the heed and call of the US. The thing is with outsourced goods and services you are lowering the cost of living (the WalMart effect) and hence inflation.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Oh shit!

[Mandark]

You probably shouldn't toss around accusations of straw men when you're about to introduce one.  Where did I say that jobs have not been outsourced?

Of course they have.  And it's a problem, particularly for industries and communities where the job losses are clustered.

The problem is you're not acknowledging the benefits of free trade (jobs that foreign companies have offshored into the US, cheaper imported goods, jobs created in export industries) and you're proposing solutions that would just trigger protectionist spirals and leave everybody poorer.

The answer's not micromanaging the hiring practices of large corporations, dum dum.  It's a better welfare state.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

You probably shouldn't toss around accusations of straw men when you're about to introduce one.  Where did I say that jobs have not been outsourced?

Of course they have.  And it's a problem, particularly for industries and communities where the job losses are clustered.

The problem is you're not acknowledging the benefits of free trade (jobs that foreign companies have offshored into the US, cheaper imported goods, jobs created in export industries) and you're proposing solutions that would just trigger protectionist spirals and leave everybody poorer.

The answer's not micromanaging the hiring practices of large corporations, dum dum.  It's a better welfare state.

Are you going to take that, Green Shinobi?

[siamesedreamer]

This Hillary for SoS makes my head hurt.

Seems like there would be way too much of a turf battle between them all.

And what the hell's up with dragging me into the immigration debate?

[Mandark]

Levying tax penalties on U.S. companies that outsource American jobs would lead to a spiral of protectionism?

You remember what happened when Bush was planning to extend the steel tariffs?  Much less what happened during the Depression after Hawley-Smoot?

Quid pro quo retaliation in international trade is the norm, not some fanciful hypothetical.

Tell me you think the US could stop American companies from employing people overseas and that Japan, the EU, etc. wouldn't respond in kind.

[siamesedreamer]

No problem. I just saw Mandark's post at the top of the page and was wondering what was going on.

[laesperanzapaz]

when you treat such a complex thing like free trade, aka global capitalism, aka economic globalism, you gotta realize that many megacorps ship out US jobs for cheaper China/Indian/southeast asian jobs, thereby hurting some in the US middle class. At the same time, where do you think your 10cent socks come from? Where does your precious ipod come from? your Special Halo 3 edition helmets? Your computer components, your everything.

If you dispise the factually, truly criminal things Walmart does, you gotta stop doing business with Walmart.

And no, it's not just Asia and shipping out jobs.  See latin america, land of socialist government and Milton Friedman economies.  Land where you get your fruits and veggies and your fabric for a few bucks, on the backs of unskilled laborers [mostly women] who have ZERO chance of 'bettering their status' through hard work.

It's kinda like caring for the envirmonmt.  It is the morally right thing to do, but you gotta make sacrifices, you gotta make alternative arrangments, you gotta make it RIGHT.  However vague and uncharted that may be.

[laesperanzapaz]