Author Topic: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics  (Read 1831230 times)

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TVC15

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #720 on: February 01, 2009, 03:06:15 AM »
Real talk:  if a video appeared on the internet of this happening to Obama a week before the elections, would he still have won?

serge

Phoenix Dark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #721 on: February 02, 2009, 06:29:11 PM »
Quote
Newt Gingrich said he sees "an open Republican field" for the 2012 Republican presidential race, The Hill reports. But he made special mention of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin (R).

Said Gingrich: "If Sarah Palin seeks out a group of very sophisticated policy advisers and develops a fairly sophisticated platform, she will be very formidable."

According to The Hotline, he says Palin would have a "substantial advantage" in Iowa, the first-in-the nation caucus state, where she has "a very big base."

Just after the presidential election, Gingrich downplayed Palin's strength in the Republican party.
http://politicalwire.com/

in other words "if she chooses me as her surrogate and then vp"
010

recursivelyenumerable

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #722 on: February 02, 2009, 07:22:18 PM »
omg Palin/Gingrich '12   :o
QED

TakingBackSunday

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #723 on: February 02, 2009, 07:26:57 PM »
Gingrich: Out of touch since 2004*

*and all years before
püp

TVC15

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #724 on: February 02, 2009, 07:37:02 PM »
Newt can't run.  Too much dirt.  We've been over this.
serge

Joe Molotov

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #725 on: February 02, 2009, 07:40:29 PM »
©@©™

Boogie

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #726 on: February 02, 2009, 09:36:00 PM »
The last thing we need, more pigs.

F*ck you too.  ::)
MMA

ToxicAdam

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #727 on: February 02, 2009, 09:51:22 PM »
Newt can't run.  Too much dirt.  We've been over this.

Newt could be her Karl Rove.


====


Republicans float out some of their ideas.

Quote
McConnell also said Republicans favor cutting the two lowest tax brackets as a way to " put money back in people's hands directly." If adopted, that would reduce the tax rate from 10 percent to 5 percent for the first $8,350 in individual income for the current year, and $16,700 for couples. The tax rate would be lowered from 15 percent to 10 percent on income between $8,351 and $33,950 for individuals and between $16,701 and $67,900 for couples.

bububu they hate poor people!!

Quote
Separately, Republican officials said they intended to press for a $15,000 tax credit for homebuyers through the end of the year. Current law permits a $7,500 tax break and limits it to first-time homebuyers.


Those seem like solid ideas to me. Add those and cut out some of that pork, and you have a stimulus bill.



« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 10:36:18 PM by ToxicAdam »

Cheebs

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #728 on: February 02, 2009, 10:44:31 PM »
Those seem like solid ideas to me. Add those and cut out some of that pork, and you have a stimulus bill.




It isn't that simple as "cut some of that pork" Republicans and Democrats don't agree on what pork is. At least in terms of this bill.

Madrun Badrun

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BUY AMERICAN SMH
« Reply #729 on: February 02, 2009, 10:48:37 PM »

US rescue deal clause 'dangerous'
President Barack Obama
Barack Obama says he expects a "difficult few days"

The EU and Canada have warned that a clause in the US economic recovery package could promote protectionism.

The "Buy American" clause seeks to ensure that only US iron, steel and manufactured goods are used in construction work funded by the bill.

The EU ambassador in Washington said that if approved, the measure would set a "dangerous precedent".

The $800bn (£567bn) rescue plan package is under discussion in the US Senate this week.

Meanwhile, President Barack Obama is expected to name Republican Senator Judd Gregg as commerce secretary.

Mr Gregg would be the third Republican in Mr Obama's cabinet.

The president's first choice for the post, New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson, withdrew following questions about his links to big business.

'Dangerous precedent'

The BBC's Jonathan Beale in Washington says Mr Obama will hope that Mr Gregg's nomination can help him secure approval for the stimulus package.

It is unlikely that the package, which has already been approved by the House of Representatives, will be able to pass the Senate without Republican support.
   
If we have a series of protectionist measures introduced, then the possibility of real global leadership is put at risk
John Bruton
EU ambassador to Washington

The White House has said it is reviewing the "Buy American" part of the stimulus bill, although Vice President Joe Biden said last week that it was legitimate to have some portion of Buy American in the final measure.

EU Ambassador John Bruton said that if passed, the measure could sap global public confidence.

"If we have a series of protectionist measures introduced, then the possibility of real global leadership is put at risk," he said.

"We regard this legislation as setting a very dangerous precedent at a time when the world is facing a global economic crisis."

'Retaliatory risk'

In a letter to Senate leaders, the Canadian ambassador in Washington, Michael Wilson, said that if "Buy American" was in the final legislation, it would set a negative precedent with global repercussions.

"The United States will lose the moral authority to pressure others not to introduce protectionist policies," he wrote.

Canadian International Trade Minister Stockwell Day said Canada hoped to be exempted from any such measure, which he warned could lead to a global depression.

"These protectionist measures, in a time of recession, only make things worse," he told broadcaster CBC.

"It can only trigger retaliatory action and we don't want to go there."

There is also opposition from some senior US Republicans who say the measure could start trade wars.

Mr Obama has urged the US Congress not to delay his stimulus plan over modest differences.

He said on Monday that he was expecting a "difficult next few days" as the Senate debated the package.

He also warned that more US banks are likely to fail as the full extent of their losses in the economic crisis becomes clear.

The Democrat leader in the Senate, Harry Reid, has said he hopes the stimulus can be approved by the end of the week.

Mandark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #730 on: February 03, 2009, 12:17:20 AM »
Republicans float out some of their ideas.

Quote
McConnell also said Republicans favor cutting the two lowest tax brackets as a way to " put money back in people's hands directly." If adopted, that would reduce the tax rate from 10 percent to 5 percent for the first $8,350 in individual income for the current year, and $16,700 for couples. The tax rate would be lowered from 15 percent to 10 percent on income between $8,351 and $33,950 for individuals and between $16,701 and $67,900 for couples.

bububu they hate poor people!!

Quote
Separately, Republican officials said they intended to press for a $15,000 tax credit for homebuyers through the end of the year. Current law permits a $7,500 tax break and limits it to first-time homebuyers.


Those seem like solid ideas to me. Add those and cut out some of that pork, and you have a stimulus bill.

The story seems to imply that the cut in the lower brackets replaces the refundable tax credits, which would be a Bad Thing.

And why a bigger credit for house purchases?  That seems kinda dumb.  For one, don't prices still have a way to go before they get back in line with the long term trend?  Secondly, if you change it from first-time buyers to all buyers, you're not creating demand for new homes (edit: which I'm not sure we should be doing anyway).

This plan sounds better than DeMint's, at least.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 12:21:17 AM by Mandark »

brawndolicious

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #731 on: February 03, 2009, 01:35:32 AM »
What if a  company expects a large reduction in profit in the near future?  It makes sense to cut unnecessary positions now so that more profit can be tucked away for the future.  Basically, the idea is that you cut X,000 jobs now so that you don't have to cut 2X,000 jobs in the future.

It seems highly unlikely that most companies would expect their profits to grow in the next couple of years.

ToxicAdam

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #732 on: February 03, 2009, 01:45:13 AM »
Just because a company is profitable for the quarter doesn't mean they will be profitable in the future. That's why they can announce positive earnings on the same day they announce job cuts. They are forecasting losses and the job cuts are done to offset those future losses.


It's a sign to Wall St that you are proactive and not reactive.




Mandark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #733 on: February 03, 2009, 01:59:15 AM »
Yeah, layoffs are in anticipation of the near future.  A company that expects sales to crash in the coming year is going to cut costs, just as one that was in the red but expects to start raking it in will probably maintain or expand their workforce.

More generally, you should expect corporations to pay as few people as little money as they possibly can.  That's what they do.  It's offset somewhat by workers' demand for job security.  More if the workers have leverage (tight labor market, unions), less in times like this.



Re: The home buying tax credit.  It's basically an interest free loan that's paid back over 15 years.  The current version is a one year temporary deal, which the Blue Dogs liked because it's basically revenue neutral.  It seems to barely change the cost of a mortgage, so I'm not sure it would have any significant effects on the market.

Someone must think it does, though.  The realtor and homebuilder lobbies pushed for it.

Cheebs

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #734 on: February 03, 2009, 08:22:42 AM »
Saw this on GAF, I am really glad that Obama refuses to listen to Petraeus. Although it seems to be getting the military angry.

Quote
CENTCOM commander Gen. David Petraeus, supported by Defence Secretary Robert Gates, tried to convince President Barack Obama that he had to back down from his campaign pledge to withdraw all U.S. combat troops from Iraq within 16 months at an Oval Office meeting Jan. 21.

But Obama informed Gates, Petraeus and Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen that he wasn't convinced and that he wanted Gates and the military leaders to come back quickly with a detailed 16-month plan, according to two sources who have talked with participants in the meeting.

Obama's decision to override Petraeus's recommendation has not ended the conflict between the president and senior military officers over troop withdrawal, however. There are indications that Petraeus and his allies in the military and the Pentagon, including Gen. Ray Odierno, now the top commander in Iraq, have already begun to try to pressure Obama to change his withdrawal policy.

A network of senior military officers is also reported to be preparing to support Petraeus and Odierno by mobilising public opinion against Obama's decision.

Petraeus was visibly unhappy when he left the Oval Office, according to one of the sources. A White House staffer present at the meeting was quoted by the source as saying, "Petraeus made the mistake of thinking he was still dealing with George Bush instead of with Barack Obama."

ToxicAdam

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #735 on: February 03, 2009, 08:28:50 AM »
We'll see who wins this tug of war. I'm not convinced Obama will meet his 16 month deadline.


siamesedreamer

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #736 on: February 03, 2009, 10:51:44 AM »
Another day...another Obama tax cheat nominee:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/02/another-tax-pro.html

AdmiralViscen

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #737 on: February 03, 2009, 10:55:04 AM »
The income tax is unconstitutional. Just another American hero

Beardo

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #738 on: February 03, 2009, 11:03:40 AM »
Another day...another Obama tax cheat nominee:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/02/another-tax-pro.html

Wow. I wonder if huffington post is reporting all of this.

siamesedreamer

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #739 on: February 03, 2009, 11:07:12 AM »
Obama is announcing the Gregg nomination now. Brilliant for the obvious reason that it will give them another seat in 2010. But, also brilliant because he can blame the sluggish recovery on a Republican.

I don't really see what Gregg gains from it though. He gets the token REP cabinet position for four years tops when he won the Senate seat with a 66% vote in a heavily DEM state. Re-election would be well within the realm of possibility.

Rman

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #740 on: February 03, 2009, 11:10:37 AM »
Jesus, how hard it is to hire a decent accountant.  They definitely have the money.  Totally ridiculous.   

AdmiralViscen

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #741 on: February 03, 2009, 11:12:06 AM »
Another day...another Obama tax cheat nominee:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/02/another-tax-pro.html

Wow. I wonder if huffington post is reporting all of this.

front page news

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/07/nancy-killefer-obamas-chi_n_155910.html

It actually says she took 18 months to pay the taxes, not the 5 months ABC claims


edit: length of the error vs time it took for her to resolve it after it was found
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 11:13:57 AM by AdmiralViscen »

ToxicAdam

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #742 on: February 03, 2009, 11:35:20 AM »
The Daschle thing really bothers me. Not because the guy did some great injustice, but it just shows you the golden parachute these politicians get when they leave office (usually because of incompetence).

I heard some talking head defend Daschle by saying, "Well, he did public service for 20 years and ONLY made a million dollars". Like he made some great sacrifice and he was grossly underpaid for it.

During the Stevens debacle, one of his fellow Senators excused him by stating, (paraphasing) "He is from the old school and doesn't understand how it's done." The implication being that the old way of doing it was taking small bribes while in office, now everyone knows how to do it.

I would like my politics to be like eating meat. I will feel better about the end product if I remain ignorant of how it's really done.


patrickula

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #743 on: February 03, 2009, 11:39:50 AM »
Daschle's shady.  Hopefully he doesn't make it (though I'm sure he'd have a soft landing anyway  :-\).

Cheebs

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #744 on: February 03, 2009, 11:57:16 AM »
Daschle's shady.  Hopefully he doesn't make it (though I'm sure he'd have a soft landing anyway  :-\).
He was not only a senator but senate majority leader so he is buddy buddy with everyone in the senate and thus able to personally persuade anyone who may vote against him. I bet he'll get more than 60 votes in the end.

ToxicAdam

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #745 on: February 03, 2009, 12:01:55 PM »
Evidently Peter Rouse, Obama's chief of staff, was with Daschle for 19 years. So, no surprise why Daschle was selected for a position he is barely qualified for.

When you consider what Linda Chavez lost her nomination for in 2001, it would be pretty remarkable (and sad) for Daschle to make it through

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Chavez#Career_in_Republican_administrations

Phoenix Dark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #746 on: February 03, 2009, 12:27:18 PM »
Ban me for 16 months if we're out of Iraq in 16 months
010

patrickula

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #747 on: February 03, 2009, 12:49:21 PM »
Daschle's shady.  Hopefully he doesn't make it (though I'm sure he'd have a soft landing anyway  :-\).
He was not only a senator but senate majority leader so he is buddy buddy with everyone in the senate and thus able to personally persuade anyone who may vote against him. I bet he'll get more than 60 votes in the end.
I don't doubt it.  He's pals with Bob Dole too.  I'm just hoping.

siamesedreamer

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #748 on: February 03, 2009, 12:50:18 PM »
Daschle's out...

patrickula

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #749 on: February 03, 2009, 01:07:59 PM »
THE POWER OF MY HOPE :omg

Cheebs

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #750 on: February 03, 2009, 01:34:41 PM »
Wow. And he was one of Obama's earliest big name endorses too.  :lol

brawndolicious

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #751 on: February 03, 2009, 01:37:55 PM »
Saw this on GAF, I am really glad that Obama refuses to listen to Petraeus. Although it seems to be getting the military angry.
How is this in any way a good thing?  He's not listening to the person most qualified to tell him what to do with Iraq.  Pulling out of Iraq was just PR bullshit and Obama's hoping that Iraq doesn't shit itself in less than 4 years.

Mandark

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« Reply #752 on: February 03, 2009, 03:22:38 PM »
Saw this on GAF, I am really glad that Obama refuses to listen to Petraeus. Although it seems to be getting the military angry.
How is this in any way a good thing?  He's not listening to the person most qualified to tell him what to do with Iraq.  Pulling out of Iraq was just PR bullshit and Obama's hoping that Iraq doesn't shit itself in less than 4 years.

If Iraq were just some technical problem, then you could hand it off to the experts and let them deal with it.  But this ain't airline safety and Petraeus ain't the FAA.

Iraq is a political issue, in the broad sense.  These are decisions about who controls what, and how the US affects that through its military.  Let Petraeus start making those decisions, and you'll have essentially appointed him as viceroy of Iraq at that point.  You wouldn't let a general decide whether to start a war, so why let one decide to continue an occupation?

What's always missing from these discussions is Iraqi agency.  Well, public opinion is vastly in favor of the US GingTFO, and they negotiated a status of forces agreement on the condition that the US GsTFO.  Let's remember that it's not our country.

brawndolicious

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #753 on: February 03, 2009, 06:25:29 PM »
Oh come on, Petraeus should have some say in when the pull out happens.  Obama just disregarding any legitimate security concerns that he has is idiotic.  What Obama should have done is at least compromised and pushed it up a few months so that Petraeus can feel that Obama is somewhat reasonable.  The only reason for a 16 month plan is to get the troops back by Independance Day 2011 so that Obama can get a PR boost.  Keeping to this schedule doesn't help Obama's relationship with the military, Iraq's security, and it especially won't help America's image if another dictator takes over.

Cheebs

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #754 on: February 03, 2009, 07:27:36 PM »
Oh come on, Petraeus should have some say in when the pull out happens.  Obama just disregarding any legitimate security concerns that he has is idiotic.  What Obama should have done is at least compromised and pushed it up a few months so that Petraeus can feel that Obama is somewhat reasonable.  The only reason for a 16 month plan is to get the troops back by Independance Day 2011 so that Obama can get a PR boost.  Keeping to this schedule doesn't help Obama's relationship with the military, Iraq's security, and it especially won't help America's image if another dictator takes over.

He promised the American people 16 months in the campaign. And I am glad he is sticking to his word on this.

brawndolicious

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #755 on: February 03, 2009, 07:31:05 PM »
so he should take a risk with Iraq and hurt his relationship with the military so that he can be an honest guy?

Cheebs

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #756 on: February 03, 2009, 07:36:39 PM »
You act like he made that decision on a whim and ignored everyone. He came up with that plan based on the advice and counsel of military experts (who I'd imagine know a hell lot more than you or I on this).

Just because the Petreus and his loyalists disagree don't make him right. Obama has plenty of military advisors who agree with him and helped craft the 16 month plan.

Beardo

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #757 on: February 03, 2009, 07:39:01 PM »
You act like he made that decision on a whim and ignored everyone. He came up with that plan based on the advice and counsel of military experts (who I'd imagine know a hell lot more than you or I on this).

Just because the Petreus and his loyalists disagree don't make him right. Obama has plenty of military advisors who agree with him and helped craft the 16 month plan.

Who?

siamesedreamer

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #758 on: February 03, 2009, 07:46:20 PM »
Draw down in Iraq fine. Probably the best opportunity we've had since the invasion.

But, I don't agree with doubling the forces in Afland. History shows it never ends well.

Boogie

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #759 on: February 03, 2009, 07:48:53 PM »
so he should take a risk with Iraq and hurt his relationship with the military so that he can be an honest guy?


He's the president.

There should be no fucking concerns with "his relationship with the military"

Sounds like LeMay-esque bullshit to me.

You act like he made that decision on a whim and ignored everyone. He came up with that plan based on the advice and counsel of military experts (who I'd imagine know a hell lot more than you or I on this).

Just because the Petreus and his loyalists disagree don't make him right. Obama has plenty of military advisors who agree with him and helped craft the 16 month plan.

Exactly.  There is absolutely no reason why Obama should be beholden to the military.  They have valuable input, to be sure, but they don't make policy.
MMA

brawndolicious

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #760 on: February 03, 2009, 07:51:07 PM »
No, I can see Obama's justification for the 16 month timeline.  He obviously has a political motivation but the problem is that Petraeus isn't comfortable at all with it and Obama, for PR reasons if any, can't extend the timeline even a few months.  This is totally justified behavior for Obama since he is not a messiah that's going to end racism or corruption.  He's a diplomat.

What I can't understand is why anybody would cheer this.  If the president has a bad relationship with the military, that won't help the country at all.

Boogie

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #761 on: February 03, 2009, 07:54:37 PM »
No, I can see Obama's justification for the 16 month timeline.  He obviously has a political motivation but the problem is that Petraeus isn't comfortable at all with it and Obama, for PR reasons if any, can't extend the timeline even a few months.  This is totally justified behavior for Obama since he is not a messiah that's going to end racism or corruption.  He's a diplomat.

What I can't understand is why anybody would cheer this.  If the president has a bad relationship with the military, that won't help the country at all.

You clearly did not get my reference.

Kennedy had a "bad relationship" with the military too.  It didn't harm the country one bit.  And in fact, probably was a good thing during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
MMA

brawndolicious

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #762 on: February 03, 2009, 08:03:13 PM »
You clearly did not get my reference.
Kennedy had a "bad relationship" with the military too.  It didn't harm the country one bit.  And in fact, probably was a good thing during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Which partly is why the Bay of Pigs failed and possibly even why Johnson started the Vietnam War.  You want to half-ass a military operation for political interests and you'll end up in deep shit.

Beardo

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #763 on: February 03, 2009, 08:03:51 PM »
You clearly did not get my reference.
Kennedy had a "bad relationship" with the military too.  It didn't harm the country one bit.  And in fact, probably was a good thing during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Which partly is why the Bay of Pigs failed and possibly even why Johnson started the Vietnam War.  You want to half-ass a military operation for political interests and you'll end up in deep shit.

What are you talking about?

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #764 on: February 03, 2009, 08:11:50 PM »
I doubt it will be 16 months.  2-3 years maybe.  Once the right wing steps up their FUD and tries to make it seem like we're /)(\ short of victory, Obama will marginally adjust his schedule.  Most people though want out of Iraq.  Not necessarily because of whether it is a success or not (most people think not) but people don't want to spend hundreds of billions a year for another country.
🍆🍆

Boogie

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #765 on: February 03, 2009, 08:12:09 PM »
You clearly did not get my reference.
Kennedy had a "bad relationship" with the military too.  It didn't harm the country one bit.  And in fact, probably was a good thing during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Which partly is why the Bay of Pigs failed

No.

The Bay of Pigs was a CIA fuckup. It only has to do with a "bad relationship with the military" if you believe Kennedy should have ceded to military pressure to commence airstrikes on Cuba.


Quote
and possibly even why Johnson started the Vietnam War. 

wtf?

« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 08:14:14 PM by Boogie »
MMA

Phoenix Dark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #766 on: February 03, 2009, 08:17:41 PM »
No, I can see Obama's justification for the 16 month timeline.  He obviously has a political motivation but the problem is that Petraeus isn't comfortable at all with it and Obama, for PR reasons if any, can't extend the timeline even a few months.  This is totally justified behavior for Obama since he is not a messiah that's going to end racism or corruption.  He's a diplomat.

What I can't understand is why anybody would cheer this.  If the president has a bad relationship with the military, that won't help the country at all.

You clearly did not get my reference.

Kennedy had a "bad relationship" with the military too.
  It didn't harm the country one bit.  And in fact, probably was a good thing during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
And we know how that turned out
010

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #767 on: February 03, 2009, 08:18:54 PM »
.
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #768 on: February 03, 2009, 09:14:55 PM »
No, I can see Obama's justification for the 16 month timeline.  He obviously has a political motivation but the problem is that Petraeus isn't comfortable at all with it and Obama, for PR reasons if any, can't extend the timeline even a few months.  This is totally justified behavior for Obama since he is not a messiah that's going to end racism or corruption.  He's a diplomat.

What I can't understand is why anybody would cheer this.  If the president has a bad relationship with the military, that won't help the country at all.

You clearly did not get my reference.

Kennedy had a "bad relationship" with the military too.
  It didn't harm the country one bit.  And in fact, probably was a good thing during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
And we know how that turned out

:lol pd, you're actually starting to make real funny
duc

patrickula

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #769 on: February 03, 2009, 11:12:54 PM »
am nintenho, you know that Iraq signed a security agreement  last year prescribing that American troops be out in 2011 right?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/world/middleeast/17iraq.html?hp
I don't think it should be up to to the military to dictate policy in the least anyway, but this is something the US is obligated to do already.

chronovore

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Re: BUY AMERICAN SMH
« Reply #770 on: February 03, 2009, 11:54:02 PM »
Meanwhile, President Barack Obama is expected to name Republican Senator Judd Gregg as commerce secretary.

Mr Gregg would be the third Republican in Mr Obama's cabinet.

The president's first choice for the post, New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson, withdrew following questions about his links to big business.

I love that there were concerns about Bill Richardson's big business connections, but we have rarely heard a peep about Cheney's no-bid contract awards to Halliburton, where he had been CEO until 2000, right up until taking the office of VPOTUS. The irony. I am choking on it.

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: BUY AMERICAN SMH
« Reply #771 on: February 04, 2009, 12:00:22 AM »
Meanwhile, President Barack Obama is expected to name Republican Senator Judd Gregg as commerce secretary.

Mr Gregg would be the third Republican in Mr Obama's cabinet.

The president's first choice for the post, New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson, withdrew following questions about his links to big business.

I love that there were concerns about Bill Richardson's big business connections, but we have rarely heard a peep about Cheney's no-bid contract awards to Halliburton, where he had been CEO until 2000, right up until taking the office of VPOTUS. The irony. I am choking on it.

That or the butt buddy relationship between Ken Lay and the Bush family.
🍆🍆

brawndolicious

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #772 on: February 04, 2009, 01:44:52 AM »
patrick, this is the worst time to start caring
am nintenho, you know that Iraq signed a security agreement  last year prescribing that American troops be out in 2011 right?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/world/middleeast/17iraq.html?hp
I don't think it should be up to to the military to dictate policy in the least anyway, but this is something the US is obligated to do already.
What does that have to do with what I said?  My problem is with Obama sticking to the 16 month timeline.
No.
The Bay of Pigs was a CIA fuckup. It only has to do with a "bad relationship with the military" if you believe Kennedy should have ceded to military pressure to commence airstrikes on Cuba.
Quote
and possibly even why Johnson started the Vietnam War. 
wtf?
There is no way that the BoP would have been successful without air support.  The only realistic options would have been to either allow the air support, or not allow the operation at all.  Going ahead with it was suicide.

I was kind of joking about the Vietnam war thing since some people say that Johnson went ahead with that to gain favor with the military.

Mandark

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am nintenho, willing to lose the plot in order to win a thread
« Reply #773 on: February 04, 2009, 01:48:48 AM »
Oh come on, Petraeus should have some say in when the pull out happens.  Obama just disregarding any legitimate security concerns that he has is idiotic.  What Obama should have done is at least compromised and pushed it up a few months so that Petraeus can feel that Obama is somewhat reasonable.  The only reason for a 16 month plan is to get the troops back by Independance Day 2011 so that Obama can get a PR boost.  Keeping to this schedule doesn't help Obama's relationship with the military, Iraq's security, and it especially won't help America's image if another dictator takes over.

Ugh.

Hey guys, let's make the unstated assumption that American troop presence is always a force for stability and progress and the only motivation for opposing it must be selfish and political!  As long as we all agree on that, then the argument can proceed!  How about let's not.

"Now that's not fair.  I'm taking Petraeus' word for it, and surely we should listen to him?"

Hey, I'm as willing to defer to technical authority as anyone here.  But Petraeus isn't the only expert, and he's far from an unbiased one.

The man is a project manager.  Of course he wants more resources and time.  His job is to evaluate how the military can achieve its goals, not to run a cost-benefit on whether those goals are achievable, cost-efficient, or desirable in the larger scheme of international politics.  His job precludes him from declaring the mission futile, but someone else has to make the call at some point.

"Yeah, but what if there's a dictator?  That would be bad!"

Who?  Nobody's got the muscle to take down Maliki.  Maliki could become a strongman, but he's already halfway there thanks to the Bush administration, not that they actually planned it.

He was playing with house money:  he knew he could call in the US to protect his regime and back up his power grabs, as long as they were carried out under the flag of the Iraqi government.  He was able to populate the national army with party loyalists and elbow out rivals, rather than seeking peaceful compromises, because he had the most guns.  Our guns.

It's like the military version of lemon socialism.  Uncle Sam bails him out when things go badly, but Maliki reaps the benefits after the victories.

The point is that America can't control the political outcomes in Iraq, or even steer them towards some acceptable range.  The strongest regional and national players will continue to consolidate their control, using both violent and non-violent means, whether the US is there or not.

"Relationship with the military!  He should at least make Petraeus feel like he's being listened to."

He should spend a few dozen billion dollars more, and let more Americans die, so that a general won't have his feelings hurt?  I like to think I'm fairly sensitive, but come the fuck on.

If only Truman had nuked the hell out of China, to keep MacArthur from pouting.

brawndolicious

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #774 on: February 04, 2009, 02:07:36 AM »
I'm sure that Patraeus has gained more knowledge of actually keeping Iraq secure than any politician.  He's not the only expert, but he's the guy in charge.  If anything, Obama's actions just undermine Patraeus' authority and makes Iraqis even less impressed with the US and the other security forces in the country after Saddam.

Mandark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #775 on: February 04, 2009, 02:19:32 AM »
I'm sure that Patraeus has gained more knowledge of actually keeping Iraq secure than any politician.  He's not the only expert, but he's the guy in charge.  If anything, Obama's actions just undermine Patraeus' authority and makes Iraqis even less impressed with the US and the other security forces in the country after Saddam.

Obama can't give Petraeus orders because it undermines his authority?  Does this mean that Petraeus can't contradict the advice of his lieutenants (who surely have even more detailed local knowledge of their specific areas than he does) because it would undermine them?

Iraqis are going to see Obama telling his generals to start pulling out troops, something that the Iraqi people have demanded, and they will lose respect for the US?

God, so dumb.

brawndolicious

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #776 on: February 04, 2009, 02:21:12 AM »
No, seeing the guy who was in charge of Iraq's security get ignored completely reflects badly on the US.

Mandark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #777 on: February 04, 2009, 02:23:42 AM »
No, seeing the guy who was in charge of Iraq's security get ignored completely reflects badly on the US.

So you're saying that Petraeus should be able to make policy and supercede the president.

brawndolicious

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #778 on: February 04, 2009, 02:57:22 AM »
And he should also be allowed a couple hunting accidents.

Van Cruncheon

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #779 on: February 04, 2009, 02:59:14 AM »
am nintenho annihilated.
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