Author Topic: kz2  (Read 60330 times)

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duckman2000

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Re: kz2
« Reply #540 on: March 24, 2009, 02:30:10 PM »
They seem to blend these days, despite their differences. Probably has less to do with the format than it does the whole shoot them dead formula, and honestly, how ridiculously well some of these games do it. The only one I have that seems resistant to this is Crysis, which would make sense considering how radically different it really is.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 02:59:39 PM by duckman2000 »

dark1x

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Re: kz2
« Reply #541 on: March 24, 2009, 02:58:58 PM »
There's still more variation today than there was in the past, however.

duckman2000

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Re: kz2
« Reply #542 on: March 24, 2009, 03:04:13 PM »
Absolutely. I think I'm just numbed to the effects at the moment, probably because of the quality of the skirmishes and warzones in games. In less cynical terms, I think I'm just plain full and satisfied with shooting adventures in the various warzones that the better developers like to craft.

NME

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Re: kz2
« Reply #543 on: March 24, 2009, 03:19:07 PM »
My review of this game:

It's an FPS and therefore is lame because all FPSs are lame, the end.

Your style.

I like it.

But, I feel like I should at least give Killzone 2 a try. So, I will, provided Gamefly ever sends me this game. And they shouldn't be doing so any time soon, because I have yet to get Street Fighter IV (and about a dozen other games I've got ahead of KZ2).

Smooth Groove

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Re: kz2
« Reply #544 on: March 24, 2009, 05:22:37 PM »
FEAR 2, really?  :\

Really. 

How many epic-war shooters have we gotten in this gen?  zzzzzz

It's not just KZ2.  I couldn't get myself to play COD:WAW or Gears 2 unless it was with another friend. 

Add to that the fact that I hate playing shooters with the PS3 controller and I don't see why I shouldn't be playing Fear 2 instead.  At least, it's trying to do a different type of shooter, like Far Cry 2. 


duckman2000

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Re: kz2
« Reply #545 on: March 24, 2009, 05:52:08 PM »
Yeah, you're not going to find anything more than a military themed shooter here. I'd argue it's one of the best at what it does (and I think it's easily the new high water mark for "epic war" stuff), but it's purely a military-themed shooter. The lameness of the story presentation doesn't do much to shake things up.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 05:54:12 PM by duckman2000 »

dark1x

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Re: kz2
« Reply #546 on: March 25, 2009, 09:11:55 AM »
FEAR 2, really?  :\

Really. 

How many epic-war shooters have we gotten in this gen?  zzzzzz

It's not just KZ2.  I couldn't get myself to play COD:WAW or Gears 2 unless it was with another friend. 

Add to that the fact that I hate playing shooters with the PS3 controller and I don't see why I shouldn't be playing Fear 2 instead.  At least, it's trying to do a different type of shooter, like Far Cry 2. 
I've finished FEAR 2 myself and while it had its entertaining moments it also suffered from terribly repetitive level design and game play.  They toss you into impossibly labyrinth environments and essentially keep repeating the same few encounters over and over again.  With the mouse, it's simply a matter of running into a room, engaging slow motion, and clicking on each enemy.  The game demands very little from the player and becomes dull as a result.  It's a step up from the original game (which was beyond turgid), but still suffers from many of its problems.

I wouldn't really lump World at War in with Gears 2 or Killzone, though, as it literally is nothing more than a non stop, stupidly noisy shooting gallery.  You move forward a bit, take out a bunch of small targets from a distance until the game says you can move, and then do it again.  I received a free copy of the PC version and tried to play it, but damn, it's even more repetitive and boring than Call of Duty 4.  Gears and Killzone are more about smaller skirmishes balanced out with the occasional larger battle.  The problem with the CoD games lies in the pacing.  The constant stream of explosions and yelling in CoD wears on the player and eventually becomes completely routine.  This wasn't the case back when MoH-Allied Assault was first released, which was one of the first games to attempt such an experience.  The Normandy landing was rather special and unique within the context of that game.  When developers decided to attempt to deliver that type of experience throughout an entire game, however, they completely ruined the pacing.

Anyways, Far Cry 2 is an interesting mention.  I picked that up around release and tried very hard to get into it, but ultimately found myself unable to enjoy it due to the fact that, again, it was overly repetitive.  They repeat the same basic missions throughout the game and compound this with the lengthy travel times using vehicles that are no fun to drive while dealing with a constant stream of nearly identical checkpoint situations.  The experience became completely rote after a while.  There is always going to be some degree of repetition within any game, of course, but the best games provide a constant stream of fresh challenges for the player.  Assassin's Creed suffered from the same problems, really.  I'm curious to hear what hooked you in FC2, however, as I'm still wanting to go back to the game some day and give it another shot.  The concept is very appealing.  If only they allowed co-op...

Andowsky

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Re: kz2
« Reply #547 on: March 25, 2009, 12:10:35 PM »
My thoughts on Killzone 2:

Short campaign that is scripted and generic, much like Gears 2.
Controls that are not responsive and downright awful in some regards.
Amazing graphics and sound.
No co-op?  :lol
Only 8 maps, some of which are completely worthless to someone like me who prefers smaller 16 player games.
Laughably small selection of weapons for multiplayer.
Very few modes for multiplayer as well.
Hit detection is wonky, death lag reeks of shitty PS2 online shooters.
Classes are cool and add a little depth to the game.

I'm almost at 20 hours online IIRC and it's already starting to get a little boring.

Smooth Groove

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Re: kz2
« Reply #548 on: March 26, 2009, 05:24:59 PM »
So I tried the Killzone 2 demo again and I liked it more the 2nd time.  I think it's 'cause I slowed down a little and stopped trying to play it like a COD game.  The controls still felt clunky but I adjusted for them by taking cover more often. 

KZ2 really is quite plesant to look at.  The artistic style and technical effects come together in a very coherent manner although I wish they had dial back a bit on the post-processing.  I don't know how to explain it exactly but it's like vaseline has been smeared over the graphics which make the game look too soft. 

I don't know if it was intentional on the part of the developer but I especially like how you can easily spot the enemies by their red eyes.   One thing that annoys me sometimes in war games like COD and MOH is that it's hard to differentiate between allies and enemies. 

KZ2 is definitely on my list now although I probably won't be picking it up until I can spot it for $40 or so. 

I've finished FEAR 2 myself and while it had its entertaining moments it also suffered from terribly repetitive level design and game play.  They toss you into impossibly labyrinth environments and essentially keep repeating the same few encounters over and over again.  With the mouse, it's simply a matter of running into a room, engaging slow motion, and clicking on each enemy.  The game demands very little from the player and becomes dull as a result.  It's a step up from the original game (which was beyond turgid), but still suffers from many of its problems.

I don't wanna say that you played the game wrong but more than a few reviewers commented that Fear 2 was probably meant to be played on the harder setting.  When I played the demo, I had no need to use slow-mo at all on the normal setting.  Based on what I've read, I assume that's pretty much how the final game would play on normal. 

What kind of problems did you have with Fear 1?  The 1st game, imo, is one of the best shooters in the last 5 years.  Although Fear 1 did have some glaring flaws, like repetitive environments and a story that went nowhere, the combat and atmosphere were consistently involving enough to make me look past them. 

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Anyways, Far Cry 2 is an interesting mention.  I picked that up around release and tried very hard to get into it, but ultimately found myself unable to enjoy it due to the fact that, again, it was overly repetitive.  They repeat the same basic missions throughout the game and compound this with the lengthy travel times using vehicles that are no fun to drive while dealing with a constant stream of nearly identical checkpoint situations.  The experience became completely rote after a while.  There is always going to be some degree of repetition within any game, of course, but the best games provide a constant stream of fresh challenges for the player.  Assassin's Creed suffered from the same problems, really.  I'm curious to hear what hooked you in FC2, however, as I'm still wanting to go back to the game some day and give it another shot.  The concept is very appealing.  If only they allowed co-op...

I enjoyed FC2 because it deviated from the standard FPS in so many ways.  The environment, gun mechanics, upgrading system, buddies, all felt fresh.  Although I could see how some parts of FC2 might frustrate you, I find that it's a game that gives as much as you're willing to put into it.  You're responsible for creating your own fun.  Most of the fun I had were from creating new ways to approach missions or experimenting on how to get by checkpoints in the quickest manner.  FC2 gives the player lots of flexibilities on how the challenges can be met and that's something very few shooters do.   

duckman2000

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Re: kz2
« Reply #549 on: March 26, 2009, 05:32:14 PM »
Far Cry 2 was excellent as long as you stuck with fighting from afar. It was a lot of fun putting a whole base under siege with just a sniper rifle. That approach also kept the clowniness of the opponents a bit hidden. It was a deeply flawed game, but when it worked, it really worked. Most games tend to give you an inoffensive, flat experience, and I guess I appreciate Far Cry 2 for providing enough peaks to make the steep dives into the shitpits tolerable.

I think I've said as much in this thread, but I really appreciated using Far Cry 2 as a breather game when the non-stop personal combat of KZ2 became a bit much. Made me really appreciate things about both games.

Bebpo

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Re: kz2
« Reply #550 on: March 26, 2009, 10:36:24 PM »
I don't know if it's because I had low expectations from all the hate on forums, but I am absolutely loving this game.  I just cleared the 4th mission where you blow the power plant up at the end and now I'm at the bridge level.

The lighting (pre-baked I'm guessing?) with the lightning flashing is SO GOOD.  That was such a smart visual design choice to have it at night with lightning going every few seconds.  That and the post-processing effects make the atmosphere pretty darn impressive.  2nd to only Crysis IMO.

The gameplay feels awesome once I stopped taking cover and stopped sniping.  Just playing it like Doom3-ish, I'm having so much fun running around corners and blowing up entire armies with my SMG.  I love how the enemies are scared of you and actually react to your attacks.  This makes the best defensive a pure offense since you just run at them at start unloading and they go into hit animations or run and stop firing at you.  Definitely gives it a feel unlike most other shooters.  The flamethrower is pretty useful indoors for the same reason.  It's nice wielding a powerful flamethrower after RE5 :P  The only weapon I'm not digging is the shotgun.  Ironically it seems too slow between shots to be useful for run n' gun where normally shotgun would be king.  SMG > Assault Rifle seems to be the best for me at least for storming places mixed with grenade throws here and there.

At this point just going from the SP I have no problem with all the 9/10 reviews.  The game is just a blast and looks awesome.  If it only improves then I think I'm going to enjoy this whole campaign.  Sure it could have a plot (I have no idea what is going on as I didn't play KZ1 or Liberation), but that's what 10/10 fps games like Half-life are for. 

Also I didn't really play it pre-patch so I can't tell how much they've been improved, but I don't have any problems with controls for run n' gunning.  It's only if I try to snipe with L1 from a distance that I have a hard time killing guys, but that's more because guys take like 50 shots to the head from a distance just to kill one guy and there are usually like 20 of them.  Compare that to running up and taking out 2-3 guys with a single round from close-up and it just feels like the game is telling you "don't snipe; go shoot them in their face," Which I'm fine with. 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 10:38:19 PM by Bebpo »

Bebpo

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Re: kz2
« Reply #551 on: March 28, 2009, 06:51:11 PM »
My only problem with this game is that it's kind of too hard at times.  Like I can take a rocket to the face and still survive, yet sometimes I'll be running around in a battle and just INSTANTLY DIE and I don't even know wtf happened.  It gets a little frustrating when you have to do a part over and over and hope you don't die so you can actually hit the next checkpoint.

Also the whole "you can't see when you're hit" thing just makes it harder.  I had a bitch of a time on the helicopter boss because once I started getting hit by missiles it was all grey and red and smoke and debris and I couldn't even tell where the boss was to take cover in the opposite direction.

Between Resistance and this it's like Sony is punishing gamers for playing FPS on PS3 by making their FPS games FAR harder than MS published shooters.  Halo and Gears are very mainstream friendly and not frustrating on the default difficulties.

Bebpo

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Re: kz2
« Reply #552 on: March 29, 2009, 03:58:05 AM »
This game is more Metal Gear Solid 4 than MGS4 was.  The whole "no place to hide" thing is in full effect in some of these levels.  I just finished the village level in the wasteland and you never feel safe no matter where you are and how many guys you've killed.  I swear I'd go through a section and take out EVERYONE, yet I'd be taking cover from some guys ahead of me and 1-hit die out of nowhere from being shot in the back or the side from some guy I have no idea existed.  You die way too fast in this game and there's no good hit indicator to show where you are being killed from.  It's so maddening to keep getting to the end of a section (which is challenging everytime) and then die in 1/2 second out of nowhere and have to do it all again.

I think the level design is real good and challenging and it's definitely satisfying when you pull it off, but I suck at this and the dying 5-10 times between every checkpoint has gotten me closer to throwing my controller than any game in recent memory.  You get so mad being killed by these fuckers that when you kill them afterwards you are full of vengance and it's very satisfying to mow dozens of them down.

TEEEPO

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Re: kz2
« Reply #553 on: March 29, 2009, 04:54:45 AM »
alot of your complaints are what i had in the early game but as i moved further along, the game got progressivly esier for me on the veteran difficulty. i think i died a total of 8 times on that chapter.

Bebpo

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Re: kz2
« Reply #554 on: March 29, 2009, 05:00:58 AM »
The game got easier when I got the lightning gun that auto-aimed and killed everyone instantly and had unlimited ammo  :D

cool breeze

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Re: kz2
« Reply #555 on: March 29, 2009, 11:41:00 AM »
the lightning gun is awesome.  It's gives you the same feeling you got when you first used the hammer of dawn in Gears, except GG didn't bother putting any limitations on it, so you just stroll by the level killing things without break.

dark1x

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Re: kz2
« Reply #556 on: March 29, 2009, 12:42:05 PM »
I suspect Bebpo will become frustrated as hell by the second half of the final mission.  I actually thought the game was quite easy on normal up until that point.  Unlike some, however, I thought the final challenge was actually pretty good and reminded me of some sort of "horde mode", in a way (dealing with unique waves of enemies).  It certainly became frustrating at points, however.

Bebpo

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Re: kz2
« Reply #557 on: March 29, 2009, 08:20:02 PM »
Very good FPS, but I'm not going to talk about what happened when you entered those palace doors.  In my mind the game ends when you make that long, intense push to get to the palace and finally reach the doors and then the credits roll and say GOOD JON, YOU WIN THE WAR. GAME OVER, YEAH.

AdmiralViscen

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Re: kz2
« Reply #558 on: March 30, 2009, 12:01:04 AM »
I suspect Bebpo will become frustrated as hell by the second half of the final mission.  I actually thought the game was quite easy on normal up until that point.  Unlike some, however, I thought the final challenge was actually pretty good and reminded me of some sort of "horde mode", in a way (dealing with unique waves of enemies).  It certainly became frustrating at points, however.

Horde mode has checkpoints lol

dark1x

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Re: kz2
« Reply #559 on: March 30, 2009, 09:21:36 AM »
I actually enjoyed the ending and the final segments.  While I prefer Gears of War 2 overall, that's one area where I felt the game totally lost it.  The final segment riding the Brumak was terrible (piss easy and completely different from normal gameplay) and then the final boss was a complete joke.

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Horde mode has checkpoints lol
So does the last area of KZ2.

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Again, i'd say nothing like Horde at all, EVERY BIT like, say, the last part of COD5
If the enemies never moved and just stood behind a wall with the occasional suicide attack, I might agree.  What made the last area of KZ2 difficult is the fact that enemies did rush you.  You couldn't sit around and try to pick everyone off.  Each checkpoint brought a different series of enemies into play (which is why I likened it to horde mode).  By the end, you have many different types of enemies attacking you in very different ways which forces you to handle all of these different attacks simultaneously.  That doesn't really happen in CoD.

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I don't wanna say that you played the game wrong but more than a few reviewers commented that Fear 2 was probably meant to be played on the harder setting.  When I played the demo, I had no need to use slow-mo at all on the normal setting.  Based on what I've read, I assume that's pretty much how the final game would play on normal. 
I've spent time with both hard and normal difficulties and I really thought it was too easy on both settings.  The main difference I found is that you generally have fewer medical supplies on hard (as you need to use them more often).  This isn't a problem, however, as there was always a surplus on normal which forced you to skip over a lot of health packs.  I really think there is a decent game in there, however, but Monolith just has to work on their level designs.  They segment each area into something so impossibly large that it becomes completely unrealistic.  I never felt as if I was exploring an actual building, rather, moving through a linear series of hallways and rooms.  The fact that the demos for both FEAR games literally mix and match various bits from throughout the game into a single experience should serve as proof that their level design doesn't take realistic structures into account.  You could not do this in most games.

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What kind of problems did you have with Fear 1?  The 1st game, imo, is one of the best shooters in the last 5 years.  Although Fear 1 did have some glaring flaws, like repetitive environments and a story that went nowhere, the combat and atmosphere were consistently involving enough to make me look past them. 
I suppose the problem I had with FEAR is that it simply failed to do anything particularly well to the point of satisfaction.  I was able to enjoy FEAR 2 more simply because it felt better to play.  FEAR 2 had some dull level designs, but feels like Half-Life 2 in the comparison to the original FEAR.  There was absolutely NO variety and the levels themselves were painfully boring and ugly to explore.  I still can't believe they released the game as they did.  Furthermore, the actual act of shooting the weapons was dulled by the ugly weapon models, poor animation, choppy camera motion, and lack of iron sights.  So you have extremely boring level designs, a story that goes nowhere, combat that is nearly ruined by presentation issues, and lack of enemy variety.  One or two of those would not ruin the game, but from my point of view, it fell short in every area.  I didn't even really find the atmosphere to be particularly engaging.  After the likes of NOLF1 and 2, I thought Monolith really dropped the ball with FEAR.  Their current approach to level design, whether a limitation in their Jupiter engine or something else entirely, needs to go.  I'm tired of boxed in hallways and buildings that serve as walls of a maze.

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I enjoyed FC2 because it deviated from the standard FPS in so many ways.  The environment, gun mechanics, upgrading system, buddies, all felt fresh.  Although I could see how some parts of FC2 might frustrate you, I find that it's a game that gives as much as you're willing to put into it.  You're responsible for creating your own fun.  Most of the fun I had were from creating new ways to approach missions or experimenting on how to get by checkpoints in the quickest manner.  FC2 gives the player lots of flexibilities on how the challenges can be met and that's something very few shooters do.   
This is an interesting one as I really love certain aspects of FC2.  I haven't made enough progress with the game to really pass judgment, I suppose, but I have such a difficult time getting into it.  I think the world design is partially at fault.  They present an open world game, but it actually feels as if you are constricted by the rocky hills surrounding the entire level.  I feel as if this really placed a barrier on the game world and made it feel more like a maze than an open area.  I'm still planning to get back to this and really try to enjoy it because it seems like something I would dig.

AdmiralViscen

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Re: kz2
« Reply #560 on: March 30, 2009, 12:13:41 PM »
Checkpoints are few and far between. There is no checkpoint from the part where you rush the upper balcony, take down all the regular guys who are spawning, and taking down the rocket guys. There could have been 1 or 2 more checkpoints in that span. Also I'm pretty sure the balcony-rushing checkpoint does not survive a system restart. You have to start off a bit before that.

dark1x

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Re: kz2
« Reply #561 on: March 30, 2009, 12:28:08 PM »
Checkpoints are few and far between. There is no checkpoint from the part where you rush the upper balcony, take down all the regular guys who are spawning, and taking down the rocket guys. There could have been 1 or 2 more checkpoints in that span. Also I'm pretty sure the balcony-rushing checkpoint does not survive a system restart. You have to start off a bit before that.
Yes, but I actually enjoyed it.  :\  Reminds me of playing Metal Slug back in the day when you had to perfect your tactics for each individual section/wave.  Now, if the entire game had followed this mold, it would have ruined it, but I thought it was a nice way to finish things up.  Frustration can lead to distaste in many people, however, so I'm not surprised that people hate it.

Bebpo

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Re: kz2
« Reply #562 on: March 30, 2009, 01:20:49 PM »
The problem I had was you are busy finding a good safe point to fight off the normal waves and you're taking them out (which takes 10 mins) and then like EIGHT rocket guys show up who turtle on the other side. 

Now if the blast radius of the rockets wasn't HUGE, you could find a safe pillar or corner and just pop out and snipe/shoot one at a time until they are all dead.  But KZ2 has the largest damage radius I've ever seen from rocket blasts and even if the rockets land nowhere near you, if several of them do at the same time you're dead. 

I think the main problem actually came down to that aiming in KZ2 is more difficult than most FPS games because of the loose controls.  This was fine for most of the game, but it made this section in the room very frustrating and near impossible.  By the time I aligned my aim to shoot 1 rocket guy, I had 6 rockets flying in my face from the other guys.

I ended up winning by launching hand grenades from each side behind the debris and luckily take out 2-3 of the rocket guys on each side with one throw from each side of the room.  Then I shot off the remaining one guy with an assault rifle.


Also it wasn't just the horde rush.  I had no problems with the first checkpoint when you were on the ground with enemies everywhere.  That was fun and didn't seem that much harder than the earlier stages.  It was the upstairs rocket part + THE FINAL BOSS WHO WAS TERRIBLE.

Two things about the final boss sucked from a design standpoint:
1) If you run out of ammo (I did), KZ2 is the SLOWEST FPS for picking up a new weapon.  OMG, you can't even run over a weapon and grab it while you are running.  You have to run up to it, STOP, hold square, then start running while loading it.  Unfortunately if the final boss has gone into teleport -> knife rush, teleport -> knife rush, cycle, when you STOP to hold square you die instantly from his knife rush.

2) If your 5.1 isn't very good (I was playing it on a different setup to play during the day in a dark room), it can be VERY DIFFICULT to hear where he is spawning.  This led to many times where I was running around and ran backwards into him with a knife and instant death.

Overall I didn't think it was the whole game that was difficult.  Going back through mission select I cleared most missions/areas with zero deaths.  It's more that certain checkpoints had high difficulty spikes and that your weapons suck.  A good example of this is the cruiser level.  The first checkpoint when you get to the top of the elevator and there's one friendly behind a crate and like 2 waves of 6 guys come through a wall on the opposite end.  this should have been easy.  In my head it's as simple as throwing a grenade when they all rush out and then taking cover at the start and picking off whoever remains when they come at you.  In reality this took me like 10 deaths and a lot of frustration RIGHT OFF THE BAT when the stage started.  The grenades wouldn't kill them (I don't even understand how that works.  I threw and HIT huge groups of 5-7 guys multiple times in the game with grenades and never got the multi-person grenade kill achievement because I guess it just didn't do enough damage to kill them @_@) and so they just keep charging and throwing lightning grenades back where we start so I'd have to move forward to avoid instant death from that and then there'd be like 3-4 guys shooting me at an angle that hit me even behind cover.  Eventually a grenade took out enough of them that a bum rush was barely able to take out the rest, but a simple situation like that should not have been a choke point.  After that I didn't die once for the rest of the entire level, so it was just that spike RIGHT AT THE START of the stage, which was frustrating.

Now going off that, things that made those parts harder than they were:
1)  Your accuracy SUCKS in KZ2 with any non-sniper rifle.  If you are standing 5-10 feet from a guy it takes an entire clip of unloading an assault rifle to kill him for certain because the aim spreads apart so fast while holding shoot down that probably only about 25% of the bullets are actually hitting the guy.  Maybe Guerilla wanted to make a realistic gun porn game, but the realism of accuracy makes it less fun.  Especially since these guys can take so much damage.  You'll shoot them and think you've killed them and then they'll get back up and start shooting at you again.  I ended up melee-ing a lot of people to death because at least when you keep smacking them you know they are DEAD.  I was also forced to use melee a bunch because after several encounters where I bum rush a guy and shoot him from a foot away with all my bullets and run out and he IS STILL ALIVE AND STARTS SMACKING ME...yeah, not good.  (Also want to mention as an example of how bad the accuracy/damage scaling is:  They made an achievement out of killing 2 or 3 guys with a single clip of 320 shots of assault rifle ammo.  I STILL HAVEN'T GOTTEN THAT even after trying purposely to do it standing 3-5 feet from a group of normal soldiers).

2)  Aiming just felt slightly off.  It wasn't a problem when you were playing the game rush style and always shooting from pretty close and jumping behind things to reload.  But it made picking off guys from a distance without a sniper rifle a chore.  Surprisingly the aim with the sniper rifle felt very precise, so maybe they purposely just screwed up all the other weapons.

3)  Not really important but the shotgun is the worst weapon in any fps I've played.  In a game like this where you can die in 1 second from close up enemy fire, how useful is a shotgun that doesn't even 100% 1 hit kill a guy a foot from your face?  I shoot them in the head and they react and then recover and then kill me before I can get a 2nd shot off.  @_@

4)  Like I said earlier, you die too quickly; the damage scaling seems uneven (sometimes I'll take a rocket HEAD ON and survive, other times I die from the blast radius of one that misses), and there is no decent indicator of where you are taking damage from.  The game needed a better indicator pointing in directions and after you die it should have had a kill cam so you at least know where to look out for next time.

Still, while it sounds like I'm being overly negative on the game it's because I thought everything else was AMAZING and one of the most visceral, intense FPS games I've ever played that was like nothing else out there.  The level design was brilliant, with sprawling levels that took you to all kinds of varied locations (within the same level) and felt connected the whole time.  The set pieces were really neat looking and usually varied in gameplay setups.  The graphics were the best I've seen on a console.  The great geometry + incredible use of motion blur and post-processing effects just blew me away.  The animation was INCREDIBLE.  The mech animation for the flying copter boss when it was swooping around all quickly is the defining graphical achievement for robots in games to date.  Same with the animation when the exo-skeleton first gets up.  The mecha design in general and overall art design was just through the roof in quality.  The AI was also extremely impressive and the overwhelming odds + smarts of the enemy flanks brought the intensity and feeling that you were fighting your way through a real warzone.  The gunplay felt extremely good and satisfying when you were taking down the enemies.   The bosses outside the final one were great.  Even the turret section in the sky gave a great Rebel Assault vibe with gorgeous visuals and decent turrent gameplay (was better than shooting asteroids >_<).  The length was also just right for a SP campaign and the collectibles and achievements add a bit to round it out.

So yeah, I really like the game but I think it has annoying flaws that will keep me from replaying it in the future.  I won't call them major or game-breaking flaws, but they are problems that hit the average skill fps gamer (I've never been too great at FPS games.  I just play them on their normal difficulty levels and finish them all) and frustrate the hell out of them at times.  The difficulty spikes were just very unbalanced and jumped far too high at times.  Hopefully Guerrilla takes the feedback in hand and for their next game makes the challenge a bit more even across the board.  If you want insanely difficult situations, then leave them for the higher difficulty modes.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 01:23:03 PM by Bebpo »

duckman2000

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Re: kz2
« Reply #563 on: March 30, 2009, 01:24:54 PM »
3)  Not really important but the shotgun is the worst weapon in any fps I've played.  In a game like this where you can die in 1 second from close up enemy fire, how useful is a shotgun that doesn't even 100% 1 hit kill a guy a foot from your face?  I shoot them in the head and they react and then recover and then kill me before I can get a 2nd shot off.  @_@

Er, it makes heads splat. That's some 100% fatality rate right there.

AdmiralViscen

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Re: kz2
« Reply #564 on: March 30, 2009, 01:24:59 PM »
holy fuck


Anyway I don't remembe that choke point on the cruiser, but there's a really bad one in one of the cool parts of the last level. When you are doing that long run towards the palace in the middle act, there is a part where you have to climb some stairs while enemies are respawning on a central tower structure, and on the left side with some more stairs going down. There's really no tactical way to assault this position besides spamming grenades (a tactic which is ruined by respawning). If you had competent teammates or co-op maybe it'd be more workable.

Also that last part with all the barbed wire, the best tactic is to just run right past everyone and trigger a cutscene. No checkpoints there either, a ton of fun on veteran.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 01:27:57 PM by AdmiralViscen »

Bebpo

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Re: kz2
« Reply #565 on: March 30, 2009, 02:02:27 PM »
3)  Not really important but the shotgun is the worst weapon in any fps I've played.  In a game like this where you can die in 1 second from close up enemy fire, how useful is a shotgun that doesn't even 100% 1 hit kill a guy a foot from your face?  I shoot them in the head and they react and then recover and then kill me before I can get a 2nd shot off.  @_@

Er, it makes heads splat. That's some 100% fatality rate right there.

Well, it never did for me :(  It usually took me 2 shots with a shotgun to kill a normal grunt from point-blank range.  Maybe I just wasn't aiming perfectly at their head.

dark1x

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Re: kz2
« Reply #566 on: March 30, 2009, 02:10:26 PM »
Quote
Er, it makes heads splat. That's some 100% fatality rate right there.
Yeah, I've never had issues with the shotty.  I actually really liked it as it looked and felt cool while 1 shot killing enemies at close range (plus it has the flashlight).  I've had great success with it online as well when dealing with smaller choke points.

Quote
The AI was also extremely impressive and the overwhelming odds + smarts of the enemy flanks brought the intensity and feeling that you were fighting your way through a real warzone.  The gunplay felt extremely good and satisfying when you were taking down the enemies.
Yeah, I thought the AI was really interesting to fight.  They moved like crazy to the point that you never felt completely safe.  This is what I feel separates the game from the CoD series (where enemies mostly just stay in a couple specifics areas and continue to spawn until you've satisfied some condition).  Same with the quality of the set pieces.  CoD5 is so damn loud and explosive, yet most of the actual on-screen action is boring.  I literally fell asleep playing the game once (it was late, but still).  :P

Bebpo

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Re: kz2
« Reply #567 on: March 30, 2009, 02:33:01 PM »
There was a flashlight?

dark1x

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Re: kz2
« Reply #568 on: March 30, 2009, 02:41:37 PM »
There was a flashlight?
Yeah, the iron sights button toggles it.

Bebpo

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Re: kz2
« Reply #569 on: March 30, 2009, 03:30:21 PM »
There was a flashlight?
Yeah, the iron sights button toggles it.

Oh hey, look at that.  Guess I never tried to zoom in with the shotgun ^^;

So I loaded up that last room because it was the only map I knew where I had immediate access to the shotgun and I think my problem with the shotgun is that the reticule is pretty tiny and the range is really short so it's easy to miss the enemies with the bulk of your shot (since they're always moving) and that's why it doesn't 1 hit kill them all the time.  I had one enemy run up and start meleeing me and I kept firing straight at forward with the shotgun and the blast didn't kill him and he melee'd me to death, lol  >_< 

dark1x

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Re: kz2
« Reply #570 on: March 30, 2009, 04:33:01 PM »
Quote
I had one enemy run up and start meleeing me and I kept firing straight at forward with the shotgun and the blast didn't kill him and he melee'd me to death, lol  >_<
At least the enemy melee isn't as insane as Call of Duty.  :P  I remember when those fuckers would run up to you (especially in CoD2) and just start beating on you until you died.

One thing that annoyed me in KZ2 is how they handle close combat.  It's plenty solid overall, but I feel you can get a bit TOO close to the enemies which can result in some confusing moments if that enemy is on the move when you approach.

duckman2000

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Re: kz2
« Reply #571 on: March 30, 2009, 04:56:43 PM »
I can't even remember using melee or the knife much. The knife was a pretty big disappointment, what with KZ1 having the best knife kills around. I guess they had to tone it down a notch, but god damn it, I missed the thud-gurgle of the knife throw, and the more intimate slit-gurgle.

Bebpo

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Re: kz2
« Reply #572 on: March 30, 2009, 05:04:23 PM »
I never figured out how to equip the knife :\

Plus what is the point of using a knife when you can instantly melee with your weapon out?

dark1x

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Re: kz2
« Reply #573 on: March 30, 2009, 05:05:49 PM »
I never figured out how to equip the knife :\

Plus what is the point of using a knife when you can instantly melee with your weapon out?
Yep, that's how I feel.  The original game used context sensitive kills while KZ2 uses a more Halo-like melee system.  I don't see any reason for the knife to exist at all.

Smooth Groove

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Re: kz2
« Reply #574 on: March 30, 2009, 05:08:49 PM »
Reading this thread made me so glad that I didn't pick up Killzone 2.  It's funny how Sony fans are rationalizing KZ2's so-so quailty.  They're trying so hard to convince themselves that KZ2 is a great game even though the logical parts of their brains are telling them it's not. 

duckman2000

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Re: kz2
« Reply #575 on: March 30, 2009, 05:23:55 PM »
Reading this thread made me so glad that I didn't pick up Killzone 2.  It's funny how Sony fans are rationalizing KZ2's so-so quailty.  They're trying so hard to convince themselves that KZ2 is a great game even though the logical parts of their brains are telling them it's not. 

Nothing quite like getting the grand assessment of the game from someone who hasn't actually played it. How very EB. I don't know what makes a great game (and I'm personally starting to question the entire genre), but barring mythical standards of the genre, KZ2 is among the best at what it does, even with its shortcomings.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 05:28:33 PM by duckman2000 »

CHOW CHOW

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Re: kz2
« Reply #576 on: March 30, 2009, 05:42:50 PM »
Reading this thread made me so glad that I didn't pick up Killzone 2.  It's funny how Sony fans are rationalizing KZ2's so-so quailty.  They're trying so hard to convince themselves that KZ2 is a great game even though the logical parts of their brains are telling them it's not. 

Are you serious with this shit?  Fucking sh!tbin your life.
hey

Smooth Groove

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Re: kz2
« Reply #577 on: March 30, 2009, 06:06:33 PM »
Reading this thread made me so glad that I didn't pick up Killzone 2.  It's funny how Sony fans are rationalizing KZ2's so-so quailty.  They're trying so hard to convince themselves that KZ2 is a great game even though the logical parts of their brains are telling them it's not. 

Nothing quite like getting the grand assessment of the game from someone who hasn't actually played it. How very EB. I don't know what makes a great game (and I'm personally starting to question the entire genre), but barring mythical standards of the genre, KZ2 is among the best at what it does, even with its shortcomings.

I'm assessing the assessments of people who played the game.  90% of Bebpo's long post on the previous page was about how the controls suck and how the weapons/damage system are unbalanced yet he concluded the game was pretty great. 

There's nothing more fundamental to the a FPS's gameplay than its controls.  How is it possible to enjoy a FPS when you're constantly hampered by the controls? 

 
If even a PS3 fan like Bebpo had such problems, I strongly doubt that I won't experience the same.  Keep in mind that I've always hated using Sony controllers for FPS games. 

Unless someone find a way to use KB+M with Killzone 2, it's unlikely I'll try it out until it beomcs a Greatest Hit.


Reading this thread made me so glad that I didn't pick up Killzone 2.  It's funny how Sony fans are rationalizing KZ2's so-so quailty.  They're trying so hard to convince themselves that KZ2 is a great game even though the logical parts of their brains are telling them it's not. 

Are you serious with this shit?  Fucking sh!tbin your life.

Try not to get so worked up over a forum post, psycho. 

CHOW CHOW

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Re: kz2
« Reply #578 on: March 30, 2009, 06:55:08 PM »
Reading this thread made me so glad that I didn't pick up Killzone 2.  It's funny how Sony fans are rationalizing KZ2's so-so quailty.  They're trying so hard to convince themselves that KZ2 is a great game even though the logical parts of their brains are telling them it's not. 

Nothing quite like getting the grand assessment of the game from someone who hasn't actually played it. How very EB. I don't know what makes a great game (and I'm personally starting to question the entire genre), but barring mythical standards of the genre, KZ2 is among the best at what it does, even with its shortcomings.

I'm assessing the assessments of people who played the game.  90% of Bebpo's long post on the previous page was about how the controls suck and how the weapons/damage system are unbalanced yet he concluded the game was pretty great. 

There's nothing more fundamental to the a FPS's gameplay than its controls.  How is it possible to enjoy a FPS when you're constantly hampered by the controls? 

 
If even a PS3 fan like Bebpo had such problems, I strongly doubt that I won't experience the same.  Keep in mind that I've always hated using Sony controllers for FPS games. 

Unless someone find a way to use KB+M with Killzone 2, it's unlikely I'll try it out until it beomcs a Greatest Hit.


Reading this thread made me so glad that I didn't pick up Killzone 2.  It's funny how Sony fans are rationalizing KZ2's so-so quailty.  They're trying so hard to convince themselves that KZ2 is a great game even though the logical parts of their brains are telling them it's not. 

Are you serious with this shit?  Fucking sh!tbin your life.

Try not to get so worked up over a forum post, psycho. 

1. You haven't played the game.

2. Bepbo is a japanophile "meh I get nausea while playing FPS games meh meh" type dude.

3. The controls are perfectly fine now.  They're not an issue whatsoever after the patch, which was weeks ago.

I mean really, what an awful post... "I haven't played it but this guy and that guy say it sucks so it must suck and PS3 fans must be trying to justify it blah blah". 

Go back to GameFaqs, you Xfag fuck.
hey

duckman2000

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Re: kz2
« Reply #579 on: March 30, 2009, 07:07:43 PM »
So you're taking into account the fact that he's a PS3 fan, but not the fact that he's admittedly not that into FPS? Yeah, no selective reading going on there. Controls are absolutely different from the magnetic reticle and gun on a stick norm and definitely an acquired taste, but that's about all there is to that. I don't actually think you would like it, especially not if you can't get around the PS3 controller itself, but that has little to do with Sony fanboys supposedly being blind to an imaginary "so-so" quality. Leave the "I just read what some people said and now I'm happy that I never tried it myself" to pros like Jinfash.

Smooth Groove

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Re: kz2
« Reply #580 on: March 30, 2009, 07:55:48 PM »
1. You haven't played the game.

2. Bepbo is a japanophile "meh I get nausea while playing FPS games meh meh" type dude.

3. The controls are perfectly fine now.  They're not an issue whatsoever after the patch, which was weeks ago.

I mean really, what an awful post... "I haven't played it but this guy and that guy say it sucks so it must suck and PS3 fans must be trying to justify it blah blah". 

Go back to GameFaqs, you Xfag fuck.


Hey, SFAG distinguished mentally-challenged fellow, you seem to care an awful lot about what I think.  Are you going to kill yourself when I sell my PS3? 


So you're taking into account the fact that he's a PS3 fan, but not the fact that he's admittedly not that into FPS? Yeah, no selective reading going on there. Controls are absolutely different from the magnetic reticle and gun on a stick norm and definitely an acquired taste, but that's about all there is to that. I don't actually think you would like it, especially not if you can't get around the PS3 controller itself, but that has little to do with Sony fanboys supposedly being blind to an imaginary "so-so" quality. Leave the "I just read what some people said and now I'm happy that I never tried it myself" to pros like Jinfash.

I assumed that Bebpo knew what he's talking about since he's mentioned playing Resistance, Halo, COD, etc. 

Also, I didn't say that I was never going to try KZ2.  All I'm saying is that I'm not paying full price for a FPS with funky controls. 

duckman2000

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Re: kz2
« Reply #581 on: March 30, 2009, 08:02:22 PM »
Also, I didn't say that I was never going to try KZ2.  All I'm saying is that I'm not paying full price for a FPS with funky controls. 

Actually, what you seemed to be suggesting was that the comments in this thread somehow invalidated the praise the game has gotten. It sits comfortably on the upper shelves of the genre. Whether or not that makes it a great game, that's a different matter. I'd say no, but that's probably just because I've had my fill of warzone shooters for a long time to come.

duckman2000

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Re: kz2
« Reply #582 on: April 21, 2009, 02:40:48 PM »
DLC has been priced, $6 for two maps. Sounds expensive.

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/04/21/killzone-2-dlc-price-and-trailer/

Re: kz2
« Reply #583 on: April 21, 2009, 02:47:05 PM »
These are multiplayer maps right?

I don't have time for multiplayer, so I'll pass.
野球

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Re: kz2
« Reply #584 on: April 21, 2009, 03:20:05 PM »
The aiming really is atrocious. I think I see what they were attempting to create, but it fails so spectacularly that it should have been scrapped in pre-pre-alpha.

duckman2000

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Re: kz2
« Reply #585 on: April 21, 2009, 03:23:49 PM »
I doubt I need to repeat my own opinion on the controls, but for those who do have problems with it, there are supposedly more tweaks coming in the next patch.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 03:27:49 PM by duckman2000 »

Smooth Groove

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Re: kz2
« Reply #586 on: April 21, 2009, 03:28:21 PM »
The gaming podcasts have had widely varying reports on KZ2's quality.  People either seem to love it or hate it.

However, most seem to agree that the controls weren't that great.  Guess I'll wait for the patches before I get KZ2. 

Many people also mention that the last level sucks because it's so frustrating. 

Is it possible to change the difficulty during play?  I'll like to play through in at least normal but I don't wannna spend several hours playing the last level.   

duckman2000

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Re: kz2
« Reply #587 on: April 21, 2009, 03:35:58 PM »
Not sure, but I think you can at the very least pick a separate chapter and start from there on any difficulty. So you would want to play the majority of the game on Veteran, and maybe the last bit on Normal.

This fucking control thing though, most people also want to feel capable without having to actually be capable, hence the cries for everything to be like COD. But I'm sure the next one will feature magnetic reticles. Maybe for their own sake the game should have had the option of control styles (similar to assists in racing games), but it's interesting to see how welcoming people are of the concept of standards on the most primitive level.

Smooth Groove

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Re: kz2
« Reply #588 on: April 21, 2009, 03:39:05 PM »
It shouldn't be that hard to include an auto-aim assist option.  In Halo 1 & 2 on PC, auto-aim is switched off immediately when KB+M is selected.

I've got to say I like auto-aim in console shooters, espeically when they're on the PS3. 

I just can't get comfortable enough with the PS3's analog sticks to not require at least a litttle auto aiming help. 

AdmiralViscen

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Re: kz2
« Reply #589 on: April 21, 2009, 03:44:03 PM »
KZ2 has massive auto aim, you just have to get the cursor really close to the guy in order to trigger it. It makes for a weird gameplay mechanic where rather than aiming for headshots, you just push the cursor around and try to paint over someone's upper body and let the dot snap to the head. Once you've done this, even if he starts running laterally or whatever your cursor will stay on the head.

edit:

[youtube=560,345]ZopiWebNxq0[/youtube]

Apparently they removed it with a patch, I haven't played with the new patch yet. You didn't need to use iron sights to benefit from the auto aim before the patch though, I wonder if that was removed too.

It still required more skill than the auto aim found in most of its competitors, and it was the only thing that kept me from hating the controls in multi, so hopefully they didn't remove it. Not like I'm playing anyway until they patch in parties...
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 03:48:52 PM by AdmiralViscen »

duckman2000

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Re: kz2
« Reply #590 on: April 21, 2009, 03:56:17 PM »
It shouldn't be that hard to include an auto-aim assist option.  In Halo 1 & 2 on PC, auto-aim is switched off immediately when KB+M is selected.

I've got to say I like auto-aim in console shooters, espeically when they're on the PS3. 

I just can't get comfortable enough with the PS3's analog sticks to not require at least a litttle auto aiming help. 


I avoided console shooters for the longest time because of the input method, and while I still consider it basically inferior, it was possible to adapt to it, and I'd almost argue that there are some benefits to it. Which is essentially why it's a bit hard to take console gamers seriously when they complain about a game with somewhat unusual aiming. I mean, I get that some won't like it, and it definitely requires more work than other games, but like RE5, it's possible to adapt to it.

On a related note, I almost feel that Guerrilla should have included only the default control configuration. If you give people the option to configure the controls to be near identical to COD or other games, they will also attempt to play it like they would those games.

KZ2 has massive auto aim, you just have to get the cursor really close to the guy in order to trigger it. It makes for a weird gameplay mechanic where rather than aiming for headshots, you just push the cursor around and try to paint over someone's upper body and let the dot snap to the head. Once you've done this, even if he starts running laterally or whatever your cursor will stay on the head.

I never even noticed that, but then I didn't put a whole lot of time into MP. I know there was a shotgun "glitch" (which somehow made it into the game after the beta), but I was unaware of this.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 03:58:18 PM by duckman2000 »

WrikaWrek

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Re: kz2
« Reply #591 on: April 21, 2009, 03:57:51 PM »
That Auto Aim is hilarious.

tiesto

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Re: kz2
« Reply #592 on: April 21, 2009, 05:19:08 PM »
Last night I d/led the demo of this just to see what the big deal was... will give it a try later today. If I can pull myself away from SO4 and LBP...
^_^

dammitmattt

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Re: kz2
« Reply #593 on: April 24, 2009, 05:55:54 PM »
After being unable to finish the last part of the last level on Veteran, I dropped down to Normal and it still took me a while to finally beat the level and Radec.  What a shitty last level and shitty ending.  Terrible, terrible storytelling.  I was so relieved that I could finally get rid of this game since I hate the controls too much to enjoy the multiplayer.