Author Topic: FitnessBore - 2018 edition (Read 816985 times)

Groogrux · « **Reply #1980 on:** February 20, 2011, 01:59:43 PM »

In b4 Cormac flips shit.

I asked the same question a couple of months ago. Here's the link http://www.evilbore.com/forum/index.php?topic=32900.msg1250588#msg1250588

cool breeze · « **Reply #1981 on:** February 20, 2011, 02:08:20 PM »

I almost never get sick and generally stay healthy (physically). Yesterday I was joking about it with a friend who has been sick throughout summer, then I started to feel ill last night. This morning was even worse. I blame him.

edit: other than getting a bit light headed and woozy and having an all around feeling of weakness and some trouble breathing, I felt like I made the right choice to man up. I popped like eight vitamin-c tablets and rank four cups of tea so that should clear me up quick. I hope my car gets stuck in the snow tomorrow; I'll lift it out with one hand, finger banging nature with the other. I feel like such a man right now.

Groogrux · « **Reply #1982 on:** February 21, 2011, 08:57:38 AM »

Linkzg Manliness

So, I'm curious about something. Aside from all the huff and puff about people shouldn't be trying to lose weight but get smaller, fit(er?), and more toned; is it bad to weigh oneself right after a workout? I know I sweat so I'm losing minimal weight from perspiration there, but I'm also taking in fluids, and I would think it's more than I'm putting out. When is the best time to weigh yourself?

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #1983 on:** February 21, 2011, 09:05:19 AM »

Doesn't really matter when, so long as you're consistent. If you weigh yourself after a workout, always weigh yourself after a workout. Most people say after your morning ablutions and before you eat, so you aren't just weighing your breakfast and last night's dinner. But it doesn't always work out that way.

The chances of you actually losing an appreciable amount of fat DURING a workout are pretty minimal though. Even if you are fully adapted to burning fat rather than blood sugar, it's going to be a trivial amount that would be obliterated by a few sips of water.

Groogrux · « **Reply #1984 on:** February 21, 2011, 09:08:54 AM »

By that alone, you would think it would be best to weigh yourself the morning after you work out before breakfast. That's when you're not going to have consumed anything for ~8 hours and hopefully you've taken your morning poo as well. My trainer guy has been telling me that the workout is not actually where the fat is burned, but it sets the body up to burn the fat later when it's "repairing" itself from the workout.

Am I right or way off?

Mupepe · « **Reply #1985 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:06:15 AM »

It also has to do with hormones and chemical reactions going on in the body regarding eating habits, the muscle mass that your body has to constantly feed and the rate at which your body consumes energy because it's expecting a certain level of physical activity. From my understanding, those are the 3 main causes of weight loss/fat burn but I might be wrong.

Cormac, thanks to your fucking ass I walked around a park for an hour yesterday with 100 pounds in my backpack. Holy fucking shit, man. Then I didn't think about the fact that even after I was done and drove home from the park, I had to walk up 3 flights of stairs with those fuckers. Great workout though, I think it's going to be my sunday exercise.

Edit: By the way, I weigh myself every Sunday morning right after waking up and right after my Sunday poo. I lost 4 lbs last week

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #1986 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:19:41 AM »

Congrats, Mups! I was fucked up the next day, but feels good now. I did the stairs myself too (although I'm on the 2nd floor), and a bunch of hills.

Mupepe · « **Reply #1987 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:24:24 AM »

oh no hills for me. just walked all around a park near the house. I didn't realize how shit I felt until I got out of the car when I get home. Then loading myself back up with the backpack and heading upstairs. Whew! Next time I plan on carrying a couple of jugs of water in each hand too. I was surprised that I'm pretty much sore everywhere. My upper abs especially, upper back/traps and legs mostly. God it felt good when I took the bag off, I felt like a feather. It was great.

Shaka Khan · « **Reply #1988 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:33:00 AM »

I've been avoiding this thread for so long, but no more. I need to look good (well, better) in 6 weeks. So should I expect to shed some weight by posting here, say 3 times a day?

Mupepe · « **Reply #1989 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:34:53 AM »

if you masturbate a lot, your heartrate will go up so you should lose weight, right??

Shaka Khan · « **Reply #1990 on:** February 21, 2011, 10:36:09 AM »

Real talk though: I'm starting with a 1500 calorie/day diet, and 4 aerobic classes per week. I'm 6'2" and I weigh 95 Kilos at the moment. How much what would be the ideal/realistic target to reach under those conditions?

Mupepe · « **Reply #1991 on:** February 21, 2011, 11:43:26 AM »

You'll lose a lot initially. Probably up to 6 pounds or so your first week. Then most likely settle between 2 and 4 pounds a day. So in 6 weeks you can lose anywhere from 12 to 20ish pounds I'd say. But that depends on what your aerobic class consists of and what your 1500 calories a day are made up of I'd say. You definitely want to be taking in good calories. Not 1500 calories of junk. I also ran your BMR at around the age of 30 so if you're younger, you might be able to lose a bit more. Older a bit less. at 6'2 and 209 lbs, you don't seem to be THAT overweight. So I imagine if you stick with it good and lose a good 15-20 pounds, it could make a hell of a difference on your frame.

Groogrux · « **Reply #1992 on:** February 21, 2011, 05:06:54 PM »

Christ, I'm going to have to try this back packing thing. It actually sounds kind of fun.

In other news, I just found out that the personal trainer I'm considering going to is a Tony Horton fanatic. Good or bad? I mean, Tony Horton is 56 and built like a Greek fucking god.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #1993 on:** February 21, 2011, 06:46:17 PM »

that basically means P90x, which is kind of a pre-packaged microwavable Crossfit program. You could do a lot worse.

Smooth Groove · « **Reply #1994 on:** February 22, 2011, 01:12:22 AM »

Quote from: Shah Rukh Khan on February 21, 2011, 10:36:09 AM

Real talk though: I'm starting with a 1500 calorie/day diet, and 4 aerobic classes per week. I'm 6'2" and I weigh 95 Kilos at the moment. How much what would be the ideal/realistic target to reach under those conditions?

Since you're a young guy who's already in decent shape, you're probably better off eating more but smaller meals per day than having such a low caloric limit. You're not going to be able to build or even keep muscle with that much activity and so few calories.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #1995 on:** February 22, 2011, 01:15:27 AM »

He'd be better off eating food that won't make him fat in the first place and ditching the aerobics and the diet that won't let him ever feel satisfied. Not to sound like a broke fuckin' record or anything...

Smooth Groove · « **Reply #1996 on:** February 22, 2011, 01:19:08 AM »

Well, the things that he likes sticking down his throat won't make him fat but they won't satiate his appetite either.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #1997 on:** February 22, 2011, 01:28:35 AM »

High protein diet sounds perfect then

Groogrux · « **Reply #1998 on:** February 25, 2011, 02:09:42 AM »

I don't know if I mentioned this, but I had my cholesterol checked the other day. My total cholesterol was 117 and my triglycerides were 65!

Oh, and I may have to go solo on Paleo. My wife was apparently unaware that turkey bratwurst with cheddar and soft wheat buns, along with sea salt potato chips were not on the paleo diet.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I came home and I was all...

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Smooth Groove · « **Reply #1999 on:** February 25, 2011, 02:17:57 AM »

How's your HDL/LDL ratio? Most physicians now believe that's a more important indicator of health than total cholesterol count.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2000 on:** February 25, 2011, 02:31:18 AM »

Yes indeed. Nevertheless, most physicians continue to dole out statins like candy. Oh well.

Smooth Groove · « **Reply #2001 on:** February 25, 2011, 02:36:27 AM »

This is as yet unsubstantiated by major research but one of my medical professors strongly believe that a steady diet of nuts can raise one's HDL significantly.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2002 on:** February 25, 2011, 02:44:25 AM »

do you have any particular type of nuts in mind

spoiler (click to show/hide)

there's the lob...

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Smooth Groove · « **Reply #2003 on:** February 25, 2011, 02:45:55 AM »

I wanna ask you one question
If I had some nuts, hangin on the walls, what did I have honey?"

I said, "Darling you'd have some walnuts."

She said, "Well.. daddy if I had some nuts
on my chest, would those be chestnuts?"

I said, "Hell yes!"

She said, "Well daddy if I had nuts under my chin
would those be chin-nuts?"

I said, "Hell no bitch you'd have a dick in your mouth!

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2004 on:** February 25, 2011, 02:51:14 AM »

...and there's the finish

Groogrux · « **Reply #2005 on:** February 25, 2011, 02:51:59 AM »

This cholesterol check was at the price of on the house, courtesy of the hot lab technician that I persuaded to check it for me. She wasn't able to include a more in-depth analysis of my cholesterol due to it being flagged by her supervisor if she did. We work together, and I didn't want to get her in trouble, because it would in turn get me in trouble.

I takes what I can get. I'm not eating any nuts, but I do take a regular Flaxseed oil supplement.

Groogrux · « **Reply #2006 on:** February 26, 2011, 10:53:57 PM »

So I bought a compression tee today and I think I'm in love. I've never owned one before, but it's just awesome. Granted, it's not Under Armour, but it does the trick. I'm going out tomorrow to try out some Vibrams. I want to at least try before I buy the first time. If I'm not impressed, I'll just go out and buy a couple more pairs of Chuck Taylor's, but I'm hoping I like em.

Groogrux · « **Reply #2007 on:** February 27, 2011, 02:46:12 AM »

Nice work! I'd imagine a trail 10k would be rough as hell, no?

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2008 on:** February 27, 2011, 05:01:26 AM »

Genghis

Have you tried the kettlebells yet? Very important for injury prevention. All those little stabilizer muscles need to be strengthened as well as the big ones that move you. I recommend Turkish Get-Ups:

[youtube=560,345]1AWdpfbhCPI[/youtube]
[youtube=560,345]0BiYV01Odi8&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube=560,345]tojfaIBZ4bs&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube=560,345]Uji7tjWYvao&feature=related[/youtube]

Groogrux · « **Reply #2009 on:** February 28, 2011, 09:09:03 AM »

So I got a pair of Vibram KSO's yesterday. I absolutely fell in love with them the moment I put them on. I had to go a size bigger than I was measured for, because the top of my foot didn't want to fit in. Wore them to work last night, and got a lot of "Hey Andy what's u... what the fuck is on your feet?"

I realize that it's going to take a little bit of time to get adjusted to walking this way and not having a Nike Swooshing spring in my step, but I'm okay with that. I did go for a jog this morning in them. Just one mile. No discomfort whatsoever.

Happy customer here!

Oblivion · « **Reply #2010 on:** February 28, 2011, 03:42:55 PM »

Probably a stupid question, but is it better to eat before or after you workout?

Mupepe · « **Reply #2011 on:** February 28, 2011, 04:33:18 PM »

Quote from: Oblivion on February 28, 2011, 03:42:55 PM

Probably a stupid question, but is it better to eat before or after you workout?

You have a certain timeframe after you workout that you should get some nutrition. I'd go no more than an hour after.

Mupepe · « **Reply #2012 on:** February 28, 2011, 04:39:32 PM »

Yeah, if I try to workout earlier than 2 hours after I eat, I get nauseous.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2013 on:** February 28, 2011, 06:57:36 PM »

Something light beforehand, something light within 30 mins afterward. Post-workout is the one time pretty much everyone agrees some carbs are advisable. (not a bowl of pasta, mind you - I'm talking like a chunk or two of sweet potato with cinnamon).

It's a long complicated story but remember that you are working out in order to recover from it. The recovery process is what makes you better/faster/stronger/fitter/leaner/bigger etc. Eating right afterward, resting appropriately, icing, stretching...these are all vital components of the recovery process and cannot be compensated for by working out harder. Plus they all feel good!

Quote

The idea of a PWO meal containing carbs (and protein) is to take advantage of a period of time in which the muscles are particularly insulin sensitive. We can fly nutrients into the muscle “under the radar” via a mechanism called “non insulin mediated glucose transport”. Amino acids are also taken in during this time and may play a synergistic role in both glycogen repletion but also decreasing inflammation that accompanies hard training. Said another way, you recover from exertion faster. So, what should ya eat? We actually want a starchy carb as our primary carb. Yams and sweet potatoes are great options as they are also highly nutritious. Fruit should be used sparingly in this meal if one is focused on optimized glycogen repletion as fructose refills liver glycogen first, and once liver glycogen is full we up-regulate the lipogenic activity of the liver and start down the road towards fat gain and insulin resistance.

http://robbwolf.com/2008/11/03/post-wo-nutrition/

http://robbwolf.com/2009/07/01/post-workout-nutrition-high-or-low-carb/

Groogrux · « **Reply #2014 on:** February 28, 2011, 10:53:08 PM »

I just wanted to let you guys know that the jog I took this morning was not an every day thing. It's like getting a new toy. I just wanted to see what they could do.

As far as the other stuff though, do you think it would be okay for me to start lifting in them yet? Or should I stick with my Chucks until I get more acquainted with them?

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2015 on:** February 28, 2011, 11:29:17 PM »

lifting, sure.

Groogrux · « **Reply #2016 on:** February 28, 2011, 11:41:55 PM »

Okay, let's put it like this. Am I going to be alright at the gym? I don't use the treadmill there. I use the elliptical. The only other exercises I do while I'm there that include my feet are squats and planks. Do you think I should be alright for those?

Nintendosbooger · « **Reply #2017 on:** March 01, 2011, 12:01:56 AM »

This is a long shot, but here goes:

Anyone selling their gym membership to Washington/NY/Boston/Philadelphia Sports Club? They're trying to charge me $69 a month and I didn't know whether to laugh at the salesperson's face or slap him with a 45-lb plate. It's the only gym around now, and I'm close to breaking in. Or, if someone can help me get a discount?

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2018 on:** March 01, 2011, 01:18:06 AM »

Quote from: andrwfields on February 28, 2011, 11:41:55 PM

Okay, let's put it like this. Am I going to be alright at the gym? I don't use the treadmill there. I use the elliptical. The only other exercises I do while I'm there that include my feet are squats and planks. Do you think I should be alright for those?

yes. Anything you can comfortably do barefoot, you can do in Vibrams. You wouldn't just head out for a 5k run in your bare feet if you'd never done it before, right? That's about the only thing you have to watch out for, as there is a lot of strengthening you need to do of the calves and ankles first. And it's not the sort that you can do via squatting heavy etc. You just need to spend time walking around barefoot or in Vibrams.

Groogrux · « **Reply #2019 on:** March 01, 2011, 01:22:30 AM »

Quote from: Cormacaroni on March 01, 2011, 01:18:06 AM

Quote from: andrwfields on February 28, 2011, 11:41:55 PM
Okay, let's put it like this. Am I going to be alright at the gym? I don't use the treadmill there. I use the elliptical. The only other exercises I do while I'm there that include my feet are squats and planks. Do you think I should be alright for those?

yes. Anything you can comfortably do barefoot, you can do in Vibrams. You wouldn't just head out for a 5k run in your bare feet if you'd never done it before, right? That's about the only thing you have to watch out for, as there is a lot of strengthening you need to do of the calves and ankles first. And it's not the sort that you can do via squatting heavy etc. You just need to spend time walking around barefoot or in Vibrams.

I'm from Kentucky. I've got that covered!

Thanks for the advice. TBH, I had only one small muscle "ache" at the end of my jog. I did try to take it easy with it the first time out of fear of injury. I'm excited to get moving in these things though.

Shaka Khan · « **Reply #2020 on:** March 01, 2011, 07:28:38 PM »

I'm glad to report that everything is going well, so far it seems like I've finally paced myself into a my new diet, so heres hoping I stick to it. I really don't wanna awaken the rabid binge-eating demon that usually follows poorly thought out/depriving diets.

I have a couple of dietary questions though:
- What is the general consensus about diet drinks (Coke) when it comes to weight loss (as I'm aware of the other harmful risks), will it impede in any way my progress?
- Can someone suggest a few ideas for hardy, satisfying, yet healthy meals? I'm short on soup ideas for example, and I love soup. Something from common ingredients and easy to prepare would be preferable.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2021 on:** March 01, 2011, 09:04:36 PM »

There is a fair amount of evidence to suggest that anything that tastes sweet will stimulate insulin production (i.e. it will make you fat). This seems to vary widely between individuals though, so I think it may be psychological. Possibly the more you crave sweet stuff, the more likely your body will be to release insulin.

At any rate, no good can possibly come from encouraging an addiction to sweet-tasting food. Drinking Diet Coke leads to eating candy and donuts and cheeseburgers and all sorts of shit. Get off the crack.

Healthy meals - you don't get much easier to prepare than eggs. Pretty much the perfect food, esp. free range. I have no idea what kind of diet you are doing though.

Groogrux · « **Reply #2022 on:** March 02, 2011, 02:04:23 AM »

I could live the rest of my life with apples, broccoli, eggs, and turkey bacon. Just saying.

Oh wait, what were we talking about?

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2023 on:** March 02, 2011, 02:18:08 AM »

eating that many apples would not be a great idea, it seems. The more I read, the more convinced I am that fructose is a serious concern. I've cut waaaaay back on fruit.

I realize this is tough for people to accept, 'an apple a day' and all that. But there it is.

Smooth Groove · « **Reply #2024 on:** March 02, 2011, 03:04:12 AM »

Aren't green apples low in sugar though? They seem to work great whenever I need to cut some fat. At the least, my digestion always improves after eating some green apples.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2025 on:** March 02, 2011, 03:21:35 AM »

Relative to what? Something containing more sugar?

Groogrux · « **Reply #2026 on:** March 02, 2011, 11:51:20 AM »

So, from the extensive reading I did on fructose (see: wikipedia.org

) I notice it links high-fructose consumption to liver disease and gout. My question is this: how much fructose did they give those lab rats? They said some of those rats had livers that looked like they belonged to alcoholics. Is there a certain percentage of fructose that was in their diets?

The other thing I want to know is where you're getting your sugar from, Cormac? Wouldn't you still need a portion of something sweet each day just to regulate blood sugar?

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2027 on:** March 02, 2011, 08:14:56 PM »

I actually stopped eating anything sweet a year ago, and died soon after. My brain just stopped functioning you see.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2028 on:** March 02, 2011, 08:18:21 PM »

If you want a serious answer, and can handle a bit of the ol' 'science', I recommend Kurt Harris' post on fructose here. It really seems inaccurate to treat it in the same way as even regular sugar. Bottom line from all this stuff is that if you want to lose weight or keep it off (i.e. you are a human being), eat fruit sparingly or not at all.

http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/?currentPage=3

Smooth Groove · « **Reply #2029 on:** March 02, 2011, 09:19:41 PM »

Quote from: andrwfields on March 02, 2011, 11:51:20 AM

So, from the extensive reading I did on fructose (see: wikipedia.org ) I notice it links high-fructose consumption to liver disease and gout. My question is this: how much fructose did they give those lab rats? They said some of those rats had livers that looked like they belonged to alcoholics. Is there a certain percentage of fructose that was in their diets?

The other thing I want to know is where you're getting your sugar from, Cormac? Wouldn't you still need a portion of something sweet each day just to regulate blood sugar?

You don't actually need to eat sugar to keep your blood sugar in check. Blood sugar is glucose. The sugars you generally eat, are galactose (milk), fructose, sucrose (table sugar) which are made from multiple units of glucose. However, all your other foods can also be converted into glucose. So no, you don't need to eat something sweet each day to regulate blood sugar.

Mupepe · « **Reply #2030 on:** March 02, 2011, 10:39:23 PM »

Quote from: Smooth Groove on March 02, 2011, 09:19:41 PM

Quote from: andrwfields on March 02, 2011, 11:51:20 AM
So, from the extensive reading I did on fructose (see: wikipedia.org ) I notice it links high-fructose consumption to liver disease and gout. My question is this: how much fructose did they give those lab rats? They said some of those rats had livers that looked like they belonged to alcoholics. Is there a certain percentage of fructose that was in their diets?

The other thing I want to know is where you're getting your sugar from, Cormac? Wouldn't you still need a portion of something sweet each day just to regulate blood sugar?

You don't actually need to eat sugar to keep your blood sugar in check. Blood sugar is glucose. The sugars you generally eat, are galactose (milk), fructose, sucrose (table sugar) which are made from multiple units of glucose. However, all your other foods can also be converted into glucose. So no, you don't need to eat something sweet each day to regulate blood sugar.

This is what I assumed but I didn't wanna post my thoughts since I wasn't 100% so I let the experts answer. I avoid all sweets because all it does is make me want more sweets. Screw that. I have enough temptation.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2031 on:** March 02, 2011, 10:40:40 PM »

thanks for typing that out, Smooth. I just can't be bothered sometimes

People continue to gape in amazement as I manage to remain perfectly functional without the aid of muffins and orange frappucinos. HOW IS HE DOING IT. DOES HIS BRAIN RUN ON GASOLINE??

Smooth Groove · « **Reply #2032 on:** March 02, 2011, 10:50:49 PM »

That's the layman's version. I spent 1 undergrad semester and 1 month in med school learning metabolic cycles.

Just looking at this makes me want to puke.

Groogrux · « **Reply #2033 on:** March 03, 2011, 04:45:07 AM »

Quote from: Cormacaroni on March 02, 2011, 10:40:40 PM

thanks for typing that out, Smooth. I just can't be bothered sometimes

People continue to gape in amazement as I manage to remain perfectly functional without the aid of muffins and orange frappucinos. HOW IS HE DOING IT. DOES HIS BRAIN RUN ON GASOLINE??

I didn't think that people need to eat sweets like that shit. I was just under the assumption that fruit was something that wasn't necessary, but recommended for at least a serving a day. I never stopped to ask why. More-so, I just figured the body could be lead into some sort of malnutrition without the vitamins and nutrients provided in fruits over a long period of time.

I'll read the article though. Ain't too proud.

[Edit]

And then I tried to read the article, and realized I was in way over my head. You're friend didn't even include a tl;dr at the end, Cormac!

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2034 on:** March 03, 2011, 04:59:02 AM »

Well, Sisson's book will have PLENTY for you on fruit, dude. Reading this stuff is a chore for me as well, given that it's been over 20 yrs since high school chem and biology. But if you're genuinely interested in it, you'd be amazed at how you can enjoy an article like that. One page from someone who really knows their shit is worth millions from people who are just spouting crap they absorbed by osmosis from TV, radio, newspapers and such.

tonight's dinner - stir-fry of leftover roast pork and kimchi. Took about 60 secs prep time, 5 mins cooking time. And it was

Mupepe · « **Reply #2035 on:** March 03, 2011, 10:20:54 AM »

I added in barbell rows last night. Started out at a really low weight to work on form (75 lbs) and I can already tell this exercise is going to kick me in my ass

Mupepe · « **Reply #2036 on:** March 08, 2011, 07:57:00 PM »

An update from me. I've lost 16 lbs so far on this cut. Still making gains while losing fat. I'm on a 3 day lifting routine while hitting the heavy bag 4 times a week. I'm using a mixture of the paleo diet and dave palumbo's diet. Dave's diet doesn't break anything from paleo but his is really strict and is more of a cutting diet. I'm fine with paleo. I don't miss flours or grains or anything but dave's diet is way too many eggs for my taste and a lot of salmon and I can't stand salmon. so I eat tuna with some extra virgin olive oil in its place and i replace some of the eggs with chicken breast. it works awesome. Everyone who says you can't make gains and lose weight is full of shit.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2037 on:** March 08, 2011, 09:08:38 PM »

oh, you absolutely can, it's just going to take more time and you have to be more careful with diet and recovery. You have to use finesse rather than brute force, basically. Good job!

Groogrux · « **Reply #2038 on:** March 08, 2011, 09:53:52 PM »

Awesome work bro!

I went on vacation this weekend. Still recovering from all the bad shit I did to myself...

DrMiletski · « **Reply #2039 on:** March 08, 2011, 10:12:01 PM »

Bitches gimme diet advice. I like climbin' and I do lots of weights, but I went vegetarian about 2 years ago and I rely on whey protein (and pithy vegetarian sources of protein, including dairy). WTF should I do? tell me

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Author Topic: FitnessBore - 2018 edition (Read 816985 times)