your feelings on the proposed WTC mosque

[drew]

what say you, eb?

i cant stand it, i refuse to talk to people about it irl because i have such strong feelings about it...

edit: on second thought, maybe i shouldnt be sharing that last part

[recursivelyenumerable]

I am a very sensitive guy

[Bloodwake]

Okay, legit question. It's just NEAR ground zero. It's not on TOP of Ground Zero. Right? Everything I've read says it's near Ground Zero and not AT Ground Zero.

The way I look at it, they've probably built Christian churches where Christianity has committed atrocities. Nothing new. I mean, there's still churches in Salem, Massachusettes, right? There's still churches in every city where the Inquisition took place, in fact, probably the same fucking churches.

If we are going to blame Muslims for shit they did bad and keep them from building churches, we got a backlog of retribution to get to for every other fucking religion. Fuck, including Muslims.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I prefer that they move it from their proposed location to right at Ground Zero.

I'm getting tired of the yokels and bumpkins in the tea parties that lose their shit over anything that doesn't benefit them directly.  This being a clear example.

Although I think the controversy exists only because it is a way for Republicans to shore up more support for the elections this November.  I heard there was a mosque closer to ground zero than this current proposed site.  Never checked up on that but it wouldn't surprise me if that is the case.  The controversy is just manufactured outrage to help cajole some fence sitters to go Republican.

Personally I don't care and if it is going to cost a lot of money, I can't hate on any construction projects that gives work to the construction workers and other manual laborers.  Stimulating the economy and what not.

[drew]

see, i have absolutely zero to do with the republicunts and tea faggers, youve got to ignore all those mentally faded flag clutchers, this is beyond fucked up ironic, they want to stick a religious center right at the base of the worst example of killing in the name of god in these modern times, religion has killed more people than anything else in history, and to put a place of worship right at the head of the tombstone of 3000 victims of just that is beyond fucked - how someone could be so god damn ignorant as to not see this correlation blows my motherfucking mind

[Bloodwake]

I prefer that they move it from their proposed location to right at Ground Zero.

I'm getting tired of the yokels and bumpkins in the tea parties that lose their shit over anything that doesn't benefit them directly.  This being a clear example.

Although I think the controversy exists only because it is a way for Republicans to shore up more support for the elections this November.  I heard there was a mosque closer to ground zero than this current proposed site.  Never checked up on that but it wouldn't surprise me if that is the case.  The controversy is just manufactured outrage to help cajole some fence sitters to go Republican.

Personally I don't care and if it is going to cost a lot of money, I can't hate on any construction projects that gives work to the construction workers and other manual laborers.  Stimulating the economy and what not.

And there you go. Seriously, there's already one that's closer? Lol, according to Google Maps there's one a few blocks down the street.

And drew, it's NEAR, not ON. and if there is a mosque already nearer than that, then this all really is a tool used by Christianity/Republicans to grab some votes.

And in regards to religious memorials on places of death caused by religion, again, Christianity probably already has that in the bag tenfold. See: Inquisition.

[Stoney Mason]

see, i have absolutely zero to do with the republicunts and tea faggers, youve got to ignore all those mentally faded flag clutchers, this is beyond fucked up ironic, they want to stick a religious center right at the base of the worst example of killing in the name of god in these modern times, religion has killed more people than anything else in history, and to put a place of worship right at the head of the tombstone of 3000 victims of just that is beyond fucked - how someone could be so god damn ignorant as to not see this correlation blows my motherfucking mind

i'm all against religion. big time atheist. big time secularist. i think religion in all its forms (christianity, islam, judaism, whatever) only work to hold back societal evolution. that being said i still haven't heard a good reason why that mosque shouldn't be built there that doesn't reek of discrimination or bigoted views. 

[Van Cruncheon]

i say build a mosque ON the ruins because frankly, given all the shrieky hysteria 9/11 induced, they WON

[CajoleJuice]

"yes, at least it'll get built, unlike that ridiculous freedom tower"

What a perfect option. I've been pissed off about the speed of rebuilding the WTC site for years now. It's pathetic.

The building isn't even within viewing distance of Ground Zero. It's a fucking community center, not some minaret-topped, 100-feet-tall mosque most people associate with Islam. It isn't some fucking symbol of Islam's victory over the American menace. Like T EXP said, this controversy is manufactured by the Republicans -- yea sure, some distinguished mentally-challenged fellows are genuinely outraged, but without the media's coverage of the Repub's bullshit, I don't think most people would give two flying fucks.

Some of the victims' families definitely don't like it, and that's understandable, but then there were people among that group who didn't want any rebuilding at all at Ground Zero. So fuck them. I empathize with them and I know some people will never get over such a tragedy, but life has to go on.

[Stoney Mason]

on a side note it always tickles me when certain "freedom warriors" both on the internet and in public life suddenly turn into the PC anti-freedom crowd they accuse the other side of being.

[Diunx]

Sounds to me like Obama is a dirty Muslim, America had an OK run.

[drew]

i'm all against religion. big time atheist. big time secularist. i think religion in all its forms (christianity, islam, judaism, whatever) only work to hold back societal evolution. that being said i still haven't heard a good reason why that mosque shouldn't be built there that doesn't reek of discrimination or bigoted views. 

ok then, ill put this as clearly as i can

it has nothing to do with muslims, its about building a place of worship on or right next to one of the biggest religiously motivated mass murders in history, if you dont get that then youre hopeless, sorry

[recursivelyenumerable]

drew stakin out a spot on the long tail of punditry

[Himu]

I say build it.

Native Americans : Mt Rushmore :: White people : mosque next to 9/11 site

[Phoenix Dark]

It's the equivalent of building an German bierhaus next to Auschwitz. It's just not the right place.

Seriously?

This is America. They can build wherever the hell they want. And it's not on Ground Zero - it's a couple blocks away.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

They need to build it on Ground Zero.

I also hope it is funded exclusively from a triumvirate of donors: Al-Qaeda, Hamas, and Iran. 

[Mandark]

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=find+churches&fb=1&gl=us&hq=churches&hnear=Silver+Spring,+MD&view=text&ei=KTpoTO3LEoGB8gam-_iyBA&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=more-results&resnum=4&ved=0CEcQtQMwAw

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=find+churches&fb=1&gl=us&hq=churches&hnear=Silver+Spring,+MD&view=text&ei=KTpoTO3LEoGB8gam-_iyBA&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=more-results&resnum=4&ved=0CEcQtQMwAw

[Stoney Mason]

i'm all against religion. big time atheist. big time secularist. i think religion in all its forms (christianity, islam, judaism, whatever) only work to hold back societal evolution. that being said i still haven't heard a good reason why that mosque shouldn't be built there that doesn't reek of discrimination or bigoted views. 

ok then, ill put this as clearly as i can

it has nothing to do with muslims, its about building a place of worship on or right next to one of the biggest religiously motivated mass murders in history, if you dont get that then youre hopeless, sorry

religion has been used to justify nearly every crime committed in history. The people building this mosque aren't the same people who bombed the world trade center. If you can't wrap your brain around those two facts then you are hopeless, sorry.

[ManaByte]

Okay, legit question. It's just NEAR ground zero. It's not on TOP of Ground Zero. Right? Everything I've read says it's near Ground Zero and not AT Ground Zero.

The way I look at it, they've probably built Christian churches where Christianity has committed atrocities. Nothing new. I mean, there's still churches in Salem, Massachusettes, right? There's still churches in every city where the Inquisition took place, in fact, probably the same fucking churches.

If we are going to blame Muslims for shit they did bad and keep them from building churches, we got a backlog of retribution to get to for every other fucking religion. Fuck, including Muslims.

The Inquisition? You mean how about 3,000-5,000 people died over a period of 200 years? If you do the math that's about 25 a year. And the Salem Witch trials? 20 people. It's a lot different in terms of numbers.

[demi]

i voted "i don't give a shit"

[Mandark]

Hey look, the Passion of the Christ fanboy is getting all apologist for historical Catholic violence against the Jews!

Who had that in the pool?  Oh, everyone?  Never mind then.

[Akala]

i voted "i don't give a shit"

[Eel O'Brian]

i don't give a shit, but i think there'll be a pretty funny series of "how soon did you jack off after _insert date_?" forum threads when raging holy rollers inevitably bomb it

maybe there'll be a controversy about building a christian church near the site after that

[Human Snorenado]

This about sums up the whole thing:

[Phoenix Dark]

Conservatives demand Muslims prove their moderate views by denouncing radical Islam, but when moderate Muslims denounce radical Islam and want to build a mosque/community center in the open to share their beliefs, conservatives attack them as radicals.

This Imam was championed by the Bush administration as an ideal moderate btw

[Dickie Dee]

It's a pretty handy filter for finding out who's a mouth-breather (drew I'm looking in your direction)

[Fresh Prince]

drew I thought you were cool.

[Brehvolution]

This about sums up the whole thing:

[img]http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/TacgJ.jpg[img]

Perfect

[Stoney Mason]

drew I thought you were cool.

For what its worth it seems to be two major groups clustered around this issue. The usual "I hate muslims" kind of group and the other "sensitive" (I'll call them hyper-sensitive) group. I think there is some distinction worth nothing between the groups even though I don't agree with either and both positions essentially boil down to denying somebody their rights. And the fact that you have some of the former group hiding in the latter group.

I think what's been most disgusting is that instead of trying to dialogue with the group building the mosque (even if I disagree with that sort of capitulation) and trying to work out a compromise there have been active attempts to demonize this group and arguably by extension all muslims living in this country. Really nasty stuff imo.

[Joe Molotov]

This about sums up the whole thing:

(Image removed from quote.)

The Mosque is a Burlington Coat Factory?

[Fresh Prince]

For what its worth it seems to be two major groups clustered around this issue. The usual "I hate muslims" kind of group and the other "sensitive" (I'll call them hyper-sensitive) group. I think there is some distinction worth nothing between the groups even though I don't agree with either and both positions essentially boil down to denying somebody their rights. And the fact that you have some of the former group hiding in the latter group.

I think what's been most disgusting is that instead of trying to dialogue with the group building the mosque (even if I disagree with that sort of capitulation) and trying to work out a compromise there have been active attempts to demonize this group and arguably by extension all muslims living in this country. Really nasty stuff imo.

I don't care too.  However drew I think is coming off some Christopher Hitchens angle ( all religion is evil, 9-11 has shown how evil religion is etc) and not those two groups you highlighted above.

[Stoney Mason]

For what its worth it seems to be two major groups clustered around this issue. The usual "I hate muslims" kind of group and the other "sensitive" (I'll call them hyper-sensitive) group. I think there is some distinction worth nothing between the groups even though I don't agree with either and both positions essentially boil down to denying somebody their rights. And the fact that you have some of the former group hiding in the latter group.

I think what's been most disgusting is that instead of trying to dialogue with the group building the mosque (even if I disagree with that sort of capitulation) and trying to work out a compromise there have been active attempts to demonize this group and arguably by extension all muslims living in this country. Really nasty stuff imo.

I don't care too.  However drew I think is coming off some Christopher Hitchens angle ( all religion is evil, 9-11 has shown how evil religion is etc) and not those two groups you highlighted above.

He comes off far more like the "sensitive" type in this thread imo.

That being said I think I'm one of the most anti-religious people on this board as I mentioned earlier. But you don't reach that goal by selectively trying to disenfranchise one religion. Especially one that constitutes such a small percentage of our population. Especially on this issue where they are in the legal and arguably morally correct position of trying to moderate their religion. If the goal was to disrupt religion then the obvious group to target is christians and christianity since they actually have the power and influence in this society. 

[Fresh Prince]

Hmm drew if they were building a church instead would you have a problem as well?

[Stoney Mason]

Hmm drew if they were building a church instead would you have a problem as well?

If he was against that then surely he would have targeted and named the thread something completely different. If his issue is with just churches being built then surely that's more about zoning laws or the thread title would have been much broader and a much wider attack on religion in general. 

[Phoenix Dark]

I think what's been most disgusting is that instead of trying to dialogue with the group building the mosque (even if I disagree with that sort of capitulation) and trying to work out a compromise there have been active attempts to demonize this group and arguably by extension all muslims living in this country. Really nasty stuff imo.

It's been pretty disgusting how casual this is being perpetrated by the media and a political party."They attacked us, now they want to build a mosque on our holy land." Pretty sad that type of stereotyping/bigotry is going mainstream

[chronovore]

I misunderstood the original post; I thought this was about integrating a mosque into the rebuilt towers at Ground Zero.

To my eyes, Drew is specifically angry about the Islam angle, that anything related to Islam should not be placed anywhere near the crimes of extremists who are also of that religion. I find it is clearer to think of Islamist extremists as a cult, a branch so far away from the main branch of the religion that it has become its own beast. Then again, every time I read about honor killings, which don't seem as uncommon as they should be, I start wishing for public canings.

[tiesto]

"yes, at least it'll get built, unlike that ridiculous freedom tower"

What a perfect option. I've been pissed off about the speed of rebuilding the WTC site for years now. It's pathetic.

The building isn't even within viewing distance of Ground Zero. It's a fucking community center, not some minaret-topped, 100-feet-tall mosque most people associate with Islam. It isn't some fucking symbol of Islam's victory over the American menace. Like T EXP said, this controversy is manufactured by the Republicans -- yea sure, some distinguished mentally-challenged fellows are genuinely outraged, but without the media's coverage of the Repub's bullshit, I don't think most people would give two flying fucks.

Some of the victims' families definitely don't like it, and that's understandable, but then there were people among that group who didn't want any rebuilding at all at Ground Zero. So fuck them. I empathize with them and I know some people will never get over such a tragedy, but life has to go on.

Summed up my feelings on the matter perfectly, Cajole... wasn't the Freedom Tower supposed to be completed in like 2007 originally?

[CajoleJuice]

"yes, at least it'll get built, unlike that ridiculous freedom tower"

What a perfect option. I've been pissed off about the speed of rebuilding the WTC site for years now. It's pathetic.

The building isn't even within viewing distance of Ground Zero. It's a fucking community center, not some minaret-topped, 100-feet-tall mosque most people associate with Islam. It isn't some fucking symbol of Islam's victory over the American menace. Like T EXP said, this controversy is manufactured by the Republicans -- yea sure, some distinguished mentally-challenged fellows are genuinely outraged, but without the media's coverage of the Repub's bullshit, I don't think most people would give two flying fucks.

Some of the victims' families definitely don't like it, and that's understandable, but then there were people among that group who didn't want any rebuilding at all at Ground Zero. So fuck them. I empathize with them and I know some people will never get over such a tragedy, but life has to go on.

Summed up my feelings on the matter perfectly, Cajole... wasn't the Freedom Tower supposed to be completed in like 2007 originally?

I don't know the entire construction and negotiating history, but it's not planned to be completed now until 2013. 12 fucking years.

[Joe Molotov]

"yes, at least it'll get built, unlike that ridiculous freedom tower"

What a perfect option. I've been pissed off about the speed of rebuilding the WTC site for years now. It's pathetic.

The building isn't even within viewing distance of Ground Zero. It's a fucking community center, not some minaret-topped, 100-feet-tall mosque most people associate with Islam. It isn't some fucking symbol of Islam's victory over the American menace. Like T EXP said, this controversy is manufactured by the Republicans -- yea sure, some distinguished mentally-challenged fellows are genuinely outraged, but without the media's coverage of the Repub's bullshit, I don't think most people would give two flying fucks.

Some of the victims' families definitely don't like it, and that's understandable, but then there were people among that group who didn't want any rebuilding at all at Ground Zero. So fuck them. I empathize with them and I know some people will never get over such a tragedy, but life has to go on.

Summed up my feelings on the matter perfectly, Cajole... wasn't the Freedom Tower supposed to be completed in like 2007 originally?

I don't know the entire construction and negotiating history, but it's not planned to be completed now until 2013. 12 fucking years.

And it'll probably take the terrorists 12 days to ram another plane into it, especially now that they have a new terrorist training facility right at ground zero.

[CajoleJuice]

[drew]

Also, if you think the ~3000 people killed on 9/11 make it the largest religiously motivated slaughter of people in modern time, you are undereducated, sorry. 

in a single event, yes

Hmm drew if they were building a church instead would you have a problem as well?

for the last time, yes, how is this so hard to understand, this is about religion, not islam, you goddamn dolts

[TripleA]

Notice how the majority of the resistance is from old white americans.

[Stoney Mason]

for the last time, yes, how is this so hard to understand, this is about religion, not islam, you goddamn dolts

Then I can criticize you on intellectual grounds then. This is about the most toothless and weak criticism of religion I've seen. Not to mention this doesn't violate the separation of church and state in any meaningful way that I can see. I'm all for kicking religion. I'm not just fond of removing people's fundamental rights in the process.

[drew]

I'm sorry, I didn't know we were in court

[Stoney Mason]

I'm sorry, I didn't know we were in court

You're the one who is turning it into a moral issue. While I'm trying to remain rationale about it. Don't blame me if I don't share your same morals or construe those as morals. I'm just making the argument so you can understand why other people may not agree with you. I'm not trying to change your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion. I'm just saying why I don't share or understand your particular opinion.

[drew]

I just keep thinking of how bitter I'd be if I died there that day with the knowledge that it'd be used as a push to get a mosque built, the speech they gave in new York the other day with all those religious figures seemed like a slap in the face to people that died because of religious motives, it's a selfish thought, all it's doing is making people that are still alive feel better about themselves because they are oh so understanding and clairvoyant

[Stoney Mason]

I just keep thinking of how bitter I'd be if I died there that day with the knowledge that it'd be used as a push to get a mosque built, the speech they gave in new York the other day with all those religious figures seemed like a slap in the face to people that died because of religious motives, it's a selfish thought, all it's doing is making people that are still alive feel better about themselves because they are oh so understanding and clairvoyant

On a cosmic level I find it absurd that a group of people decided to kill 3000 thousand people because a magic man in the sky wanted them to do so.

I find it absurd that another group of people (sarah palin types) think their magic magic in the sky is better than other people's magic man in the sky.

Frankly I just find it absurd that in the year 2010, people are still believing in any magic men in the sky.

So while I sympathize greatly for those people who lost their lives during 9/11 I just don't understand how this mosque being built  is really that big an issue. Doesn't our society have a lot bigger fish to fry than this?

[Phoenix Dark]

Stoney I respect your class and maturity, but you need to learn how to smack a bitch sometimes. Come on

[Stoney Mason]

Stoney I respect your class and maturity, but you need to learn how to smack a bitch sometimes. Come on

I really do respect people's opinion's, especially when they are different than mine. (As long as they are serious about it)  Unless their views are completely abhorrent to me I don't like to attack them. All that sort of breeds is group think which I hate.

Also although I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, the only time people do change their opinions is when they feel somebody at least takes their argument seriously. Otherwise they just double down on their views.

Anyway I think we (I) have gotten way too serious on this topic for the bore.

Let's get back to dick jokes. 

[drew]

Sorry im not some wine swilling effete hipster homo that doesn't care about anything

[CajoleJuice]

I need to get laid

[T-Short]

http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/articles/articles/steel-girder-cross.htm

[Eric P]

HALLOWED GROUND

http://daryllang.com/blog/4421

    Look at the photos. This neighborhood is not hallowed. The people who live and work here are not obsessed with 9/11. The blocks around Ground Zero are like every other hard-working neighborhood in New York, where Muslims are just another thread of the city fabric.

[Phoenix Dark]

Ha, there are two mosques within 10 blocks of the Holy Land.

[Bloodwake]

Real Talk: if Christian extremists flew planes into those buildings, and there was a ten story church being built there, there would be no controversy in this country's newspapers about the church being built.

[Brehvolution]

Real Talk: if Christian extremists flew planes into those buildings, and there was a ten story church being built there, there would be no controversy in this country's newspapers about the church being built.

No such thing:
[youtube=560,345]fL7iY5uarA8[/youtube]

[drew]

i dropped out, douchebag

[Phoenix Dark]

Never heard someone say "I dropped out [of school]" as a defense of their position on something

[Beardo]

It's been escalated so much that neither side can back down.

As far as I am concerned it's a NYC issue and thats it.

[Phoenix Dark]

It's been escalated so much that neither side can back down.

As far as I am concerned it's a NYC issue and thats it.

It's not often that a states rights argument makes more sense than other arguments being presented in any debate. Good jon Drew