The Official Psychoanalysis GAF Thread

[Tasty]

throw it all out and start from scratch. dude in green, some lady princess and a big mean pig-dude and some triforce. make a game.

Then again I was never the biggest Zelda fan to begin with. Wind Waker is my favorite of the console ones. because of the sailing. so, yeah...

That would literally be an Ocarina of Time remake then.

Honestly I think people care more about the story in Zelda than they care to admit. That's why Wind Waker felt so different, aside from the art style. The story made the world different (Great Ocean), it had Ganon as an old man which was a great twist, Link as a little kid for the whole game, etc. People bag on TP for being OoT probably because the world is so similar. Hyrule Field, Ganon looking barely older than his OoT self, etc. If the story were completely different I wonder if people would feel the same way about the series being stagnant.

[Himu]

Well, story goes a long way because the gameplay mechanics of the games are often tied to story.see: link's awakening, link to the past, majora's mask, wind waker.

But no, I'm for a complete overhaul. I'd be in favor of Retro taking a shot at a new Zelda, in first person, and give in Metroid Prime treatment.

[EmCeeGrammar]

If y'all wanna be uninformed apathetics cuz lol sd waggle wii game, thats fine.  Its obvious that anyone claiming Skyward Sword isn't attempting to shake things up has not been reading into the development team's stated goals for the game or the nuances that have been gleamed from demo play.

    I'm excited for the blending of overworld and dungeon.  I'm excited their stated objective is density over scope. I'm excited at the prospect of nonlinear dungeons, as the demo dungeon has been discovered to be very flexible in its progression.  I'm excited at the prospect of slightly more cerebral combat with intuitive controls without making it into a flashy combofest that would ABSOLUTELY wreck the pacing of an exploration puzzle game.  I'm excited for the various streamlining of functions ranging from the new item selection method to the dash function.  I'm excited over the upgrade system offering a greater range of awards to reward exploration beyond heart pieces and rupees.  Hell, the only thing I don't look forward to is the story, but Skyward Sword just keeps up the win with SKIPPABLE CUTSCENES.

The only thing I sorta want is a confirmation of Super Guide, as it has allowed them to release challenging games to great success.

[Himu]

You keep bringing up fucking INTERVIEWS. In other games they SHOW US the changes.

[brob]

That would literally be an Ocarina of Time remake then.

Honestly I think people care more about the story in Zelda than they care to admit. That's why Wind Waker felt so different, aside from the art style. The story made the world different (Great Ocean), it had Ganon as an old man which was a great twist, Link as a little kid for the whole game, etc. People bag on TP for being OoT probably because the world is so similar. Hyrule Field, Ganon looking barely older than his OoT self, etc. If the story were completely different I wonder if people would feel the same way about the series being stagnant.

oot remake? nah, I mean they should make the game bits different from the formula. Like, wind waker had the world covered in water and you sailed around instead of horsing, but it was largely the same. same type of dungeons, same type of enemies, same type of puzzles, same controls, same everything. throw it all out and make a legend of zelda prime of some sort. keep whatever EAD considers to be the core of the zelda experience (exploration? puzzlin 'n fighting? central story elements?) and just make it different. even if it's just for the explicit reason of making it different.

They won't. there is no reason to. Zelda probably sells well enough as it is, and nintendo is real good about making games just slow enough that they are getting new fans that haven't had too much yet as others start falling off. but it would be nice if all they did was catered to my whims. (at which point they'd be making Wind Waker 2 with less fighting and maybe some harvest moon shit in there just to make it even less confrontational)  

[EmCeeGrammar]

And lol at bashing Zelda controls and then using Prime as some kind of counterpoint.  Its the fucking zelda controls with pewpewpew.

[EmCeeGrammar]

You keep bringing up fucking INTERVIEWS. In other games they SHOW US the changes.

The game isn't out yet.  Why would it be smart to damn the whole thing based on ONE (one!) area of an early dungeon intended for demo purposes.

edit:  How would they effectively even communicate the laundry list of changes they are making anyway.  As it is I can SEE the improved combat.  I can see Link move through areas quicker with a nimble ease.  I can see from the first E3 demo the idea they were hinting at with an outside forest meadow with spots of interest. 

[Himu]

No one is bashing Zelda controls aside from waggle. Metroid Prime has lock on, but enemies have a much wider palette of behavior and patterns than Zelda does and isn't that in the same genre as Zelda? Lock on is not a problem, many games today still use lock on.

[Himu]

You keep bringing up fucking INTERVIEWS. In other games they SHOW US the changes.

The game isn't out yet.  Why would it be smart to damn the whole thing based on ONE (one!) area of an early dungeon intended for demo purposes.

I'm not damning the whole thing, but golly does it look like a boring turd, and when I see a turd I call it. It's three months until release and a new Zelda looks like a steaming pile. Not a good sign.

[AdmiralViscen]

I wqa hoping the rumored reinvention of zelda on wii woukd be an open world zelda 1 inspired romp

[brob]

Zelda 1's openness isn't "good game design" anymore sadly. exploration these days is going left hoping to find a dead-end with a chest when you are told to go right.

[Himu]

I wqa hoping the rumored reinvention of zelda on wii woukd be an open world zelda 1 inspired romp

[Himu]

Zelda 1's openness isn't "good game design" anymore sadly. exploration these days is going right hoping to find a dead-end with a chest when you are told to go right.

I don't think it'd be like that dude. When he means open, he means Morrowind travel across awesome terrain killing moblins do whatever you want in any order open.

[brob]

traveling across open terrain killing moblins was already in OoT and TP wasn't it? with the huge and empty hyrule field everybody loves/hates?

What stands out about Zelda1 to me is the lack of hand-holding and how you could just happen upon stuff. A dungeon here a hidden secret here. not something I see making a return in a big market title like Zelda.

[EmCeeGrammar]

No one is bashing Zelda controls aside from waggle. Metroid Prime has lock on, but enemies have a much wider palette of behavior and patterns than Zelda does and isn't that in the same genre as Zelda? Lock on is not a problem, many games today still use lock on.

...
You mean like the various swathe of behaviours employed by the enemies we've seen in Skyward Sword media.  Man, selective memory is a bitch.

I wqa hoping the rumored reinvention of zelda on wii woukd be an open world zelda 1 inspired romp

I would like this.

[Himu]

traveling across open terrain killing moblins was already in OoT and TP wasn't it? with the huge and empty hyrule field everybody loves/hates?

What stands out about Zelda1 to me is the lack of hand-holding and how you could just happen upon stuff. A dungeon here a hidden secret here. not something I see making a return in a big market title like Zelda.

I think they could make it interesting. Metroid Prime is full of interesting shit.

[fistfulofmetal]

i've always saw metroid as the only nintendo series for adults. everything else is kiddie shit.

[Himu]

No one is bashing Zelda controls aside from waggle. Metroid Prime has lock on, but enemies have a much wider palette of behavior and patterns than Zelda does and isn't that in the same genre as Zelda? Lock on is not a problem, many games today still use lock on.

...
You mean like the various swathe of behaviours employed by the enemies we've seen in Skyward Sword media.  Man, selective memory is a bitch.

Well it certainly didn't look boring!

[brob]

i've always saw metroid as the only nintendo series for adults. everything else is kiddie shit.

Other M kinda negates that bro  

[fistfulofmetal]

 

[Oblivion]

Ganon's not in Skyward Sword, apparently.

[Himu]

I didn't archaic. I said outdated. Those are two different things. Many games today have taken what OoT originally did and enhanced it. If it were archaic, they would be archaic too. However, I can't see how you CAN'T look at that video I posted and NOT think that outdated as all fuck.

[EmCeeGrammar]

So himu's trolling again? Or is he in stupid "this is archaic wahwahwah give me a game like this one!" mode for realz?

He certainly doesn't want a Zelda game.  When someone uses God of War as some example of genre progression to aspire to one has to question the dubious priorities.

edit:  Its like arguing 2d Mario is 'outdated' because Super Metroid expanded on the concept of sidescrolling platforming.  Thats reta.... BONKERS!

[Himu]

I don't want Zelda to be like God of War, but God of War sure as fuck plays better, at least mechanically, than modern Zelda. Look at how smooth that shit looks. Looks like a hot knife to butter. Look at Skyward Sword. Looks like an nintendo fan masturbating: awkward.

[Himu]

So himu's trolling again? Or is he in stupid "this is archaic wahwahwah give me a game like this one!" mode for realz?

He certainly doesn't want a Zelda game.  When someone uses God of War as some example of genre progression to aspire to one has to question the dubious priorities.

edit:  Its like arguing 2d Mario is 'outdated' because Super Metroid expanded on the concept of sidescrolling platforming.  Thats reta.... BONKERS!

2d Mario ain't outdated. It's timeless! We're talking about 3d gaming. Keep your strawmen out of this talk!

[Oblivion]

I personally wouldn't mind the combat being more complex, but honestly, that area isn't even in my top 10 grievances with recent Zeldas.

[brob]

that skyrim sure is looking great, don't y'all agree?

[Oblivion]

if they made zelda a first-person oblivion-like affair i would probably vomit until i died

Also this.

[Himu]

I personally wouldn't mind the combat being more complex, but honestly, that area isn't even in my top 10 grievances with recent Zeldas.

For me it's not just the combat. It's the whole package.

Demon's Souls has a dungeon where a fire breathing dragon CHASES YOU ACROSS A BRIDGE and torches you. You are chased the entire fucking dungeon. You have to use smart use of environment to avoid it. You can come back later when you're powerful enough to even kill it.

Demon's Souls is an example of a game that uses all of the power of modern consoles to realize a vision.

Zelda: SS looks like the same shit I've been doing for decades.

[youtube=560,345]bDuF9Vl6ovE[/youtube]

I need to get back to DS but I might as well wait for Dark Souls.

But anyways, this is probably to one major thing. We think of different things when we think of Zelda. These kids clearly think of puzzles. I think of adventure and witnessing awesome shit. Puzzles are a bonus.

[Himu]

I don't want Zelda to be like God of War, but God of War sure as fuck plays better, at least mechanically, than modern Zelda. Look at how smooth that shit looks. Looks like a hot knife to butter. Look at Skyward Sword. Looks like an nintendo fan masturbating: awkward.

Oh come the fuck on! Out of all the top tier action games you take the worst of them, I can get how Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry 3 have better gameplay but God Of War? pshhh. And even then those are different games focused on providing different things, you're reaching homeboy.

God of War is action adventure, not pure action. Only idiots label it as pure action when it never - EVER - was.

[TakingBackSunday]

this thread got shitty again.  himu, just move the fuck onto something else for games.

[Narag]

I don't want Zelda to be like God of War, but God of War sure as fuck plays better, at least mechanically, than modern Zelda. Look at how smooth that shit looks. Looks like a hot knife to butter. Look at Skyward Sword. Looks like an nintendo fan masturbating: awkward.

Oh come the fuck on! Out of all the top tier action games you take the worst of them, I can get how Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry 3 have better gameplay but God Of War? pshhh. And even then those are different games focused on providing different things, you're reaching homeboy.

God of War is action adventure, not pure action. Only idiots label it as pure action when it never - EVER - was.

Sadly, most God of War fans are idiots and are apt to make the comparison themselves.  Fun games when approached as action-adventure as you've said, subpar when approached as an action game.

[EmCeeGrammar]

Just because God of War has a controllable avatar in the third person brandishing weapons against foes does not make it good sense for Zelda to aspire to it.  The bread and butter of DmC/NinjaGaiden/GoW is their combat systems.  That's what the game is ABOUT.  That's why they receive so much detail.  Zelda's enemies are contextual to the puzzles (at least the good ones) and for what it is they have to balance that kind of shit so that one aspect doesn't overwhelm whatever else they are designing.  Hell, they generally do try to provide some tactic and oomph to the combat in 3d Zeldas, but like I said its (usually) the right amount of focus for the type of game it is.

We've talked about this before, and your argument hasn't moved beyond how you dislike how they chose to portray the 1:1 tracking for the most part. And I've explained its a necessary function to communicate certain mechanics to the player.

[brob]

Dark Souls is looking to be quite different from Demon Souls. you should play both himu. game's great.

God of War is about combat? lulz. it's about set pieces if anything. the combat is ass when pitted against DMC/NG/Bayo.

[Himu]

i dunno. it's what i liked about zelda since the first game.

[EmCeeGrammar]

if they made zelda a first-person oblivion-like affair i would probably vomit until i died

i have no idea what i want from zelda anymore, but i think whatever it is i want, it would make it not-zelda, so i'm not really selfish enough to insist on it

and no, emcee, nobody has read the developer interviews, cuz that's usually something you do when a game has interested you, and if i had to pin down the biggest problem nintendo has right now with skyward sword, it's that they haven't managed to interest people the way they've been able to with prior 3d zeldas

not sure how they could do that but then that's not my job is it

I missed your snark <3
People being uninformed ain't the problem, its people making a case for say... stagnation as if they were informed.  I'd be faaar less offended at lol sd waggle wii game because that comes down to preferences.

[Himu]

SOUL OF DARKNESS

Better than every ds Igavania

edit: I dunno. I was 5 years old when I first played. The entire experience was awesome to me.

[Himu]

GAMELOFT

Shitting on devs and always bringing the superior product

[pilonv1]

what awesome shit did you witness in the first zelda?

on a separate note, had fun reading this old thread.  very embarrassing for the op.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=400421

More embarrassing than this?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=334529

[Himu]

FF8

[EmCeeGrammar]

So himu's trolling again? Or is he in stupid "this is archaic wahwahwah give me a game like this one!" mode for realz?

He certainly doesn't want a Zelda game.  When someone uses God of War as some example of genre progression to aspire to one has to question the dubious priorities.

edit:  Its like arguing 2d Mario is 'outdated' because Super Metroid expanded on the concept of sidescrolling platforming.  Thats reta.... BONKERS!

2d Mario ain't outdated. It's timeless! We're talking about 3d gaming. Keep your strawmen out of this talk!

No, you keep muddling subgenres to make the discussion obtuse.  If anything adding the '3d' qualifier is some lame strawmen.

[Himu]

How is it? 3d ages worse than 2d? It's not any one else's fault you desire to play a game designed mechanically as if it were from the year 2000. I bet you can't wait to balance across a rope with the wiimote!

[EmCeeGrammar]

What the hell do those 3 sentences have to do with one another? 

Back to the point.  The 2d-3d distinction is moot, don't bring it up.  You claim their are all these examples of games that Zelda should aspire to or surpass, particularly in combat.  What they have in common is traversal to varying extents, puzzle elements, and third person combat.  Is New Super Mario Brothers Wii not a good game because Super Metroid expanded the avatar moves around in a level/world and dispatches enemies concept?

[Himu]

I never claimed that Zelda should surpass or even aspire to BE like those games.

[Great Rumbler]

People still care about Nintendo? lol

[Tasty]

So himu's trolling again? Or is he in stupid "this is archaic wahwahwah give me a game like this one!" mode for realz?

Both probably. I can't really tell if he's bashing the game (which has made some major improvements it seems) or Nintendo's way of providing info about it (reading is HARD!) Whether or not he's taking the time to actually find out if Skyward Sword has changed, he's just bitching about how Nintendo's not giving us a 30-hour trailer showing everything in the game.

[Himu]

haha there you go with READ THE INTERVIEWS again.

[EmCeeGrammar]

I never claimed that Zelda should surpass or even aspire to BE like those games.

Then why did you bring them up?  You claim they took the Zelda mold and progressed it.  You claim Skyward Sword itself isn't taking those strides in spite of the information we have to the contrary.  You then resort to footage whereas you moan about superficial stuff like the animations and then somehow extrapolate the entirety of the game experience from ooooonnnnneeee area of ooooonnnneee dungeon thrown together for a demo.  Its borderline concern trolling without the false sincerity.

Its a zelda game trying new things, I promise.

[Himu]

They were brought up because Zelda looks boring and they don't and they're (most of them) in the same genre? Zelda is a pioneer and has been outclassed by even games of poor ass developers (from software)?

[EmCeeGrammar]

haha there you go with READ THE INTERVIEWS again.

There yougoes with 'If its not in a trailer who cares lol!" again.

[EmCeeGrammar]

They were brought up because Zelda looks boring and they don't and they're (most of them) in the same genre?

As much as Metroid is in the same genre as Mario.

[Himu]

haha there you go with READ THE INTERVIEWS again.

There yougoes with 'If its not in a trailer who cares lol!" again.

Trailers? Who mentioned trailers?

[Himu]

They were brought up because Zelda looks boring and they don't and they're (most of them) in the same genre?

As much as Metroid is in the same genre as Mario.

Fact:

God of War is action adventure.

Fact:

Enslaved is action adventure.

Fact:

Demon's Souls while not action adventure, uses many core fundamentals that 3d Zelda innovated that is to say, sword and shield buttons. And many of the things that Demon's Souls sets off to do, like those dungeons full of traps and danger, are things that Zelda could easily do too.

Sure, some of them aren't even in the same genre. But the point I've been trying to make is that Zelda looks awful whereas they don't.

[EmCeeGrammar]

In this episode, himuro plays coy about his behavior in previous threads on the same topic.

edit:  Zelda looks like...Zelda.  I think it makes sense for it to be... Zelda.  If you don't like Zelda anymore then its time to move on and just be apathetic about it like an adult.  For instance, I don't care about Kirby anymore.  I did once, but it stayed in its niche and I learned theres no reason for things I liked to change to suit my specific tastes.

[Himu]

ahahahauaha

[Great Rumbler]

Himu, just stop caring. Zelda is what it is. Nintendo is what it is. Much of the spark that they once had is GONE. Their systems are rapidly becoming wastelands pockmarked by bland casual titles or minigame compilation. They do still come out with the odd game worth getting excited over [Xenoblade] but the days of those games coming several times a year are over. It's time to either accept what they're doing and enjoy what they offer or accept what they're doing and just MOVE ON.

I have virtually no interest in Skyward Sword or whether it or not it appears boring. I could spend $50 on it and play it in all its 480p glory, or I can spend the same amount on Saints Row 3, Arkham City, Skyrim, Rage, or Deus Ex: Human Revolution all of which can be enjoyed in 1680X1050 resolution with copious AA. It's not a hard choice.

[EmCeeGrammar]

I see I have won.

[Himu]

Did you really? You went along with it, didn't you?

[EmCeeGrammar]

Himu, just stop caring. Zelda is what it is. Nintendo is what it is. Much of the spark that they once had is GONE. Their systems are rapidly becoming wastelands pockmarked by bland casual titles or minigame compilation. They do still come out with the odd game worth getting excited over [Xenoblade] but the days of those games coming several times a year are over. It's time to either accept what they're doing and enjoy what they offer or accept what they're doing and just MOVE ON.

I have virtually no interest in Skyward Sword or whether it or not it appears boring. I could spend $50 on it and play it in all its 480p glory, or I can spend the same amount on Saints Row 3, Arkham City, Skyrim, Rage, or Deus Ex: Human Revolution all of which can be enjoyed in 1680X1050 resolution with copious AA. It's not a hard choice.

I begrudgingly support this attitude.  It also means lower future instances of trolling against us nintards still in the fold!

[Himu]

Himu, just stop caring. Zelda is what it is. Nintendo is what it is. Much of the spark that they once had is GONE. Their systems are rapidly becoming wastelands pockmarked by bland casual titles or minigame compilation. They do still come out with the odd game worth getting excited over [Xenoblade] but the days of those games coming several times a year are over. It's time to either accept what they're doing and enjoy what they offer or accept what they're doing and just MOVE ON.

I have virtually no interest in Skyward Sword or whether it or not it appears boring. I could spend $50 on it and play it in all its 480p glory, or I can spend the same amount on Saints Row 3, Arkham City, Skyrim, Rage, or Deus Ex: Human Revolution all of which can be enjoyed in 1680X1050 resolution with copious AA. It's not a hard choice.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

At this point, I really don't care. I'm not even buying it. I'm just giving Andrex and his goof troop some shit. Because that gaf thread is far too one sided

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