Author Topic: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE  (Read 2301978 times)

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benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23340 on: November 13, 2016, 05:18:35 AM »
- Do some of their issues (economic protectionism, immigration policy, populism in general) have merit or are they poisonous by default and not even considered ? Are discussing those letting the far right set up the agenda of public talk ?
This is difficult and is arguably why the parties/movements in the West are gaining such power. Just to take the immigration component. And of course, standard Ugly American disclaimer. Also I'm going to be glib and simplistic in describing arguments.

The political elites in almost every country had a near consensus on this at least at the national level, at most slow immigration to high skilled, but overall it's a positive thing. The populations are vastly more hostile to FOREIGN INVADERS. The EU gets a similar sentiment. When you have the longterm major social democrats and conservatives that have been the consensus politics for decades placing themselves far away from the people on an issue or issues it creates that opening in these multi-party systems and it creates an opening for a Trump/Perot (even Bernie to a slightly different extent) candidate. (Speaking of Bernie, you can see the same thing in the gains of the left parties in Spain/Greece because of how their situation is mildly different from Northern Yurop.)

And a lot of these parties in Yurop are not seriously threatening the status quo internally really, to take the infamous Swedish Democrats, they're all in favor of the welfare state, they're to the left of the Social Democrats on expanding it and globalization and related issues. They just don't want the filthy immigrants to get a piece. Especially as they mature as parties and throw out the harsher voices. The Progress Party in Norway was basically under cordon sanitaire for most of its existence until the last decade, much like the Swedish Democrats and Geert Wilders and the Le Pens are still under. But it moderated slightly while also becoming more powerful overall to where they were the only viable center-right coalition partner which did "normalize" the party, but at the same time further moderated it as it now wants to win.

You have similar sentiments in the Trump base, that illegals are coming here to get free everything, schools, health care, Social Security, etc. while not paying any taxes instead paying with their crime and low social values and then Democrats let them vote! A lot of these voters don't agree with Paul Ryan or Rand Paul or whatever on slashing the state. They want Medicare protected, all kinds of new benefits, they just don't want the darkies to get it.

Hillary goes out and says, look at all this stuff I'm going to implement for people who are not you, and even more, I'm going to give it to people you hate as we IMPORT more of them or create more of them with our gay/transgender/austim causing vaccines. Trump says, I'm going to get rid of those you hate which will let us keep those programs, and cut taxes and increase the military! Paul Ryan's budget becomes actually a benefit to this argument because the "Trump" angle gets to say "yeah, he has to propose those cuts because of all these illegals/globalists/Microsoft shills/etc.!"

I'm simplifying obviously but in terms of practical politics, especially in a two party, or major party system, you almost have to take those concerns into account because you can't keep offering an unsatisfactory solution and hoping they'll somehow "get it" finally. That's how the Libertarian Party operates ffs.

One reason the rhetoric gets so extreme is that you say "immigration reform" or "border security" or "self-deportation" nobody believes you. Even the moderate anti-immigration people. Trump says BUILD A WALL, DEPORT EM. Even people who don't want him to go that far at least will trust he'll do something closer to their ideal than the people who already have (from their perspective) lied to them multiple times before.

But I'm off track and should cut it short before Rufus catches me too far out on a limb again. :-*

VomKriege

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23341 on: November 13, 2016, 06:40:46 AM »
As a disclaimer, above remarks are mostly true for western Europe. The dynamics, I understand, are slighty different in central Europe for obvious reasons.
ὕβρις

ToxicAdam

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23342 on: November 13, 2016, 11:24:35 AM »
If you dig down to the roots of right-wing philosophy it's just tribalism. Protecting what was, because you have good feelings of that time for 'your people'. It's one reason why it's an evergreen philosophy that won't 'age out' like some people hope. It's in all of us whether you are 68 or 28. It just depends on the person if they give in to those base instincts.

You look at any push back on immigration, socialism, welfare, etc in any country it's because the people that are benefitting do not look like the people who were benefitting in the past. At least in America that holds true.

Bebpo

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23343 on: November 13, 2016, 01:10:40 PM »
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/11/10/national/japanese-americans-japanese-u-s-concerned-trumps-election/#.WCiqdPkrKUl

Interesting to see Japanese-American's living in America's thoughts.  The tldr is besides the usual reasons for anti-trump, Japanese-Americans feel very strongly as they can relate with the Muslim community because of the anti-Japanese sentiment & internment in WWII.  Only one Japanese-American interviewed voted for Trump because they wanted to "feel proud of their government again", they were also over 50 and in Tennessee.

I'm a Puppy!

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23344 on: November 13, 2016, 02:37:27 PM »
Hearing from a lot of my fellow colleagues in other firms that next week many of them are meeting to try to determine their exposure with Trump's election and their H1B strategies. Loads of companies use H1Bs as a way to deflate wage costs. Some firms are going from all out panic to others are smug and reassured they'll be OK because there's too much money being made off H1Bs to stop it. From what I'm hearing sections of tech sector are freaking out.
que

zepblackstar

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23345 on: November 13, 2016, 02:55:30 PM »
Peter Thiel is on his transition team, so tech issues will be dealt with on his ideas.

Dennis

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23346 on: November 13, 2016, 03:02:31 PM »
I work on a H1B visa but that is at a university doing research so I don't know what that will mean for me.

zepblackstar

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23347 on: November 13, 2016, 03:07:46 PM »
If you want to have a fight over the criminal element of deporting illegals. Good luck on the optics of that. Whoever is advising him realizes this is not the hill to die on against deportation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/13/donald-trump-plans-to-immediately-deport-2-to-3-million-undocumented-immigrants/


Quote
In a "60 Minutes" interview scheduled to air Sunday, President-elect Donald Trump said he planned to immediately deport two to three million undocumented immigrants after his inauguration next January.

"What we are going to do is get the people that are criminal and have criminal records, gang members, drug dealers, where a lot of these people, probably 2 million, it could be even 3 million, we are getting them out of our country or we are going to incarcerate," Trump told 60 Minutes correspondent Lesley Stahl, according to a preview of the interview released by CBS. "But we’re getting them out of our country. They’re here illegally."

Stahl had pressed Trump about his campaign pledge to deport "millions and millions of undocumented immigrants." Trump told her that after securing the border, his administration would make a "determination" on the remaining undocumented immigrants in the country.

Great Rumbler

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23348 on: November 13, 2016, 03:20:00 PM »
Isn't that pretty much what the Obama administration has been doing the past 8 years? Though, I suppose, Trump wants to do it more bigly.
dog

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23349 on: November 13, 2016, 03:24:23 PM »
Nothing wrong with deporting illegal immigrants

hope he can start with his wife that broke the terms
of her visa and thus should hve never gotten citizenship

james

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23350 on: November 13, 2016, 07:36:16 PM »
Fuck the media. They helped create the orange monster in the first place. Then when they realized that he might actually win, they tried to destroy him. When they decided they dragged him enough they went back to dragging Clinton to make a better horserace narrative. :doge

I never understood this.

The media is run by 5 rich white dudes.

Which party better represents their interests?



Also, I am sure many of you have had their facebook news feed filled with the same thing

Post after post of people starting with the word "heart broken" and following up with 7 paragraphs.

I thought this post, by a brown friend, was an accurate response to them

Quote
I am scratching my head at all these folks posting on facebook that they "stand in solidarity with their black, brown, and Muslim friends."

...

 And now y'all are going to fly in on a mythical, shimmering cloud of white knight syndrome and "protect me" from the big bad racists? Get outta here! I'll believe it when I hear it, see it, and experience it.

...

And if any of these racists come up and try to physically harm me as the news has been reporting, I will defend myself as much as I can and tie them up in so much litigation that their grandkids will be paying their legal bills.

...

 So please, save me the white knighting, save me from your condescending savior complex. I, and probably many other people, have been protecting myself for years. Act on your words, or don't speak them at all.

Of course she misses the part where a Trump federal court system would throw out her claim.



Quote
Both Morales and Manriquez left the DNC during the presidential campaign, leaving the committee for weeks without a Spanish speaker on its media staff.

FUCK YOU HILLARY CLINTON
:O

bluemax

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23351 on: November 13, 2016, 08:17:14 PM »
Quote
what do you guys think of all this talk about "normalizing" Trump?

It's amazing, because living in France, the US is currently remaking everything -with more money (and shallower writing, you dumb Yankees)- we are going through for 15 years, right down to the word for it (Normalization). I think it's less relevant for the USA because how you approach freedom of speech (Europe shunned more heavily what is considered extreme far right speech, arguably didn't work better) and of the strict bipartism setup : "Normalization" in Europe refers to traditional conservatives (or even center left) reaching / pandering to far right voters using dogwhistling or adopting some of the measures and rhetoric (on immigration, relation with Muslim citizens, law and order and economic protectionism). By that measure, it's already too late in the USA because the GOP has already corralled in and been taken over by the evangelists, the Tea Partiers and the White resentment vote. Republicans playing up to the Birther controversy 8 years ago was a clear sign of where things were headed.

In Europe, due to multipartism, the far right is often its own party. If this party is in position to make some good gains in an election, often comes up the question of the "legitimate" right and left wing party making an alliance to keep them out. The problem with this, of course, is that it feeds directly into the far right narrative that those parties are one and the same establishment, that their ideological differences are irrelevant and obsolete. This solution is losing steam at every election cycle because it's really a band aid to a systemic problem and the "legitimate" right wing parties (or to be precise : some of their elected officials) feel they are played for dunces by the left. They'd rather be elected on their platform with the people on their right than to pull out to help elect people from the other side of the aisle.

At last, keep in mind that in Europe far right parties are associated with the very real experience of the fascist and proto fascist regimes that were in power during WW2, and it is a significant stigma for them (that is fading away as the memories of the war are drifting into abstract history).

The two relevant questions for the USA and for the liberals are those :
- Should we even reach out to these voters ?
- Do some of their issues (economic protectionism, immigration policy, populism in general) have merit or are they poisonous by default and not even considered ? Are discussing those letting the far right set up the agenda of public talk ?

Myself, I've never been a fan of the "normalization" theory. You can't just leper 15%-20%-25% of the voters and pretend they are not there. You can't wish away that immigration and border control* is and will be a major debate. You can't just ignore and hope that some of the fears of the citizenry will pass naturally. It also stifles debate by casting suspicions constantly on legitimate political discussions and leaving to the far right the monopoly on some ideas (If you're a center left politician and you adress patriotism or law and order talk a little too enthusiastically, be prepared to defend yourself. Same if you're not on board with the global economy and Europe as it stands.).

But then again I'm not optimistic. Neither strategy seems to work, pandering to the far right is a sure fire way to let the inmates run the asylum. There's only so much cunning political moves you can make around the reality that those opinions are shared by a considerable number of your citizens. I fear people will only be disabused by seeing for themselves how bad those fuckers will be in office, but I'm not eager of that happening either because I'm fairly confident it will mean social violence, violence violence and the economy down the tank.

* Something which the EU itself is doing abundantly.

I admit I'm not super up on what's gone on in France the past 15 years, but it is very interesting to me that you say we are just repeating it, are there any good resources I can read to get an understanding of this?

Also, I feel like the bolded and the points you made around it are exactly what helped Trump rise and it is an important set of questions that need to be addressed going forward. We can't keep pretending the rural south and the rust belt don't exist.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/11/10/national/japanese-americans-japanese-u-s-concerned-trumps-election/#.WCiqdPkrKUl

Interesting to see Japanese-American's living in America's thoughts.  The tldr is besides the usual reasons for anti-trump, Japanese-Americans feel very strongly as they can relate with the Muslim community because of the anti-Japanese sentiment & internment in WWII.  Only one Japanese-American interviewed voted for Trump because they wanted to "feel proud of their government again", they were also over 50 and in Tennessee.

Sounds like my EE professor, professor Ung. He was ex-military from Kansas and I can totally imagine him being pro-Trump despite being a minority.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 08:23:34 PM by bluemax »
NO

OnlyRegret

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23352 on: November 13, 2016, 09:27:08 PM »
LOL at Trump on 60 Minutes basically saying he wasn't going to do anything he promised during the campaign. The wall? He's okay with some fences. Getting rid of ObamaCare? Well, he'll keep the good parts like pre-existing conditions and kids staying on until 26. Locking up Hillary? Well, he doesn't want to be too hard on her, she's done a lot of good for the country. Getting rid of LGBTQ marriage rights? No way, it's already been decided by the courts, total non-issue, won't even consider revisiting it.

Yeah, saw that.
Won't complain a lick about that. Just hope he maintains that stance and conversion therapy boy doesn't mess it up

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23353 on: November 13, 2016, 09:34:09 PM »
LOL at Trump on 60 Minutes basically saying he wasn't going to do anything he promised during the campaign. The wall? He's okay with some fences. Getting rid of ObamaCare? Well, he'll keep the good parts like pre-existing conditions and kids staying on until 26. Locking up Hillary? Well, he doesn't want to be too hard on her, she's done a lot of good for the country. Getting rid of LGBTQ marriage rights? No way, it's already been decided by the courts, total non-issue, won't even consider revisiting it.

I wouldn't be so worried now if not for his cabinet and those he's surrounded with and emboldening awful people

If he had a vp pick I could support I wouldn't be still be losing my shit
IYKYK

Tasty

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23354 on: November 13, 2016, 09:34:38 PM »
That's a big problem with American politics. You have to say the most extreme things of any candidate to get elected, regardless of if you intend to do them.

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23355 on: November 13, 2016, 09:35:19 PM »
But trump said more than extreme things
IYKYK

I'm a Puppy!

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23356 on: November 13, 2016, 09:37:09 PM »
He's trying to calm everyone down. But when he finds out he can't control his followers...
que

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23357 on: November 13, 2016, 09:40:08 PM »
He picked Priebus as chief of staff and fucking Bannon as chief strategist.
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23358 on: November 13, 2016, 09:46:55 PM »
Hopefully I'm not MURDERED before then!
IYKYK

Tasty

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23359 on: November 13, 2016, 10:00:18 PM »
It's going to be pretty sweet when the people who voted for him for deplorable reasons get mad that he doesn't do them.

Eh, they've already gotten a symbolic victory, which is almost as bad.

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23360 on: November 13, 2016, 10:11:25 PM »
 :drudge
Quote
Report says president-elect was born as Dawood Ibrahim Khan in Waziristan before being adopted by American family
Quote
According to Neo News, Trump was born as Dawood Ibrahim Khan in the now-Taliban-controlled Waziristan region of the country in 1954. After his parents were killed in a car accident, a British Indian Army captain took little Dawood to London, where the Trump family later adopted him and brought him to America, the report claimed.

Citing numerous tweets to back up the story, Neo News even provided a photo of the alleged young Trump, wearing what appears to be traditional Pakistani boys’ garb.

Bebpo

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23361 on: November 13, 2016, 10:18:32 PM »
LOL at Trump on 60 Minutes basically saying he wasn't going to do anything he promised during the campaign. The wall? He's okay with some fences. Getting rid of ObamaCare? Well, he'll keep the good parts like pre-existing conditions and kids staying on until 26. Locking up Hillary? Well, he doesn't want to be too hard on her, she's done a lot of good for the country. Getting rid of LGBTQ marriage rights? No way, it's already been decided by the courts, total non-issue, won't even consider revisiting it.

I wouldn't be so worried now if not for his cabinet and those he's surrounded with and emboldening awful people

If he had a vp pick I could support I wouldn't be still be losing my shit

Exactly.  Trump comes across as an idiot and liar, but he's so unknowledgeable about everything his views always seem like shooting from the hip in a GWB but way worse way.  Could live with that for 4 years.  He also seems scared of people not liking him and being against him because he's got thin skin which would theoretically make him not do anything too crazy like how he's already backtracking in interviews.

The problem is that he's appointing everyone he knows and everyone he knows are terrible people because everyone else called him on his shit and bailed.  His cabinet is insanely horrible people who unlike Trump aren't just kinda dumb & uninformed, they know what they're doing and they're insidious and filled with hate and will be pushing their agendas.  This is what makes the next 4 years so incredibly frightening.  If Trump had like backed off his loyalists and picked top smart people in various industry, maybe more centralist people, it would be night & day.

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23362 on: November 13, 2016, 10:20:17 PM »
I am absolutely terrified.
IYKYK

Tasty

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23363 on: November 13, 2016, 10:30:50 PM »
Those people are idiotic enough to believe a lot of dumb things Trump spewed and couldn't trust Hillary because of her "lies". Do you really think they won't turn on Trump quick?

Yes. These people are idiots. They voted in a known con man.

Worse than that, they're partisan as hell and will never admit the GOP will ever do anything wrong.

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23364 on: November 13, 2016, 10:32:45 PM »
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23365 on: November 13, 2016, 10:34:55 PM »
Fuck Hillary Clinton and the DNC. I am NOT taking this well.
IYKYK

Bebpo

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23366 on: November 13, 2016, 10:50:48 PM »
Those people are idiotic enough to believe a lot of dumb things Trump spewed and couldn't trust Hillary because of her "lies". Do you really think they won't turn on Trump quick?

Yes. These people are idiots. They voted in a known con man.

Worse than that, they're partisan as hell and will never admit the GOP will ever do anything wrong.

Yup, the partisan part is pretty scary.  At the end of the day imo a good chunk of democrats and a large majority of republicans will always fall in line and vote for their nominee and defend them no matter what.  These people aren't changing sides in any upcoming election.  At most some might not go out to the polls and vote.

This is why for democrats to win they pretty much have to get their base + independents, because they will never convince the majority of republicans to vote for their candidate.  It's just too partisan. 

I have no idea how this is all going to end with a country so incredibly divided and it gets worse every day.  Because of the military there's not going to be a civil war type event, but how the two sides will ever mend?  More realistically if one side gets so big they win everytime in every position of the government and just drown the other side out as a powerless minority group.  Demographics showed that Democrats were supposed to be that group and would eventually splinter into a left liberal and central fiscally democrat group that would fight for government control.  But that's pie in the sky stuff as we all see.  With reality, who knows.  If the DNC fractures any further and democrats fight among themselves any more, we could see the republicans continue to dominate the entire government pushing out the entire democratic group.  It already started years ago during Obama's term, most people just didn't notice it because Obama held the republicans back as much as he could.

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23367 on: November 13, 2016, 10:53:38 PM »
The silver lining is that half the country didn't and most of dems base didn't even show up. They ran a shit campaign and it's no wonder they lost but plenty of new and old blood to mine.
IYKYK

chronovore

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23368 on: November 13, 2016, 11:19:40 PM »
I feel bad about this, but: I seriously don't want to hear a peep from anyone who didn't get out and vote.

Not. A. Motherfucking. Peep.

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23369 on: November 13, 2016, 11:21:56 PM »
peep

Tasty

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23370 on: November 13, 2016, 11:24:55 PM »
I feel bad about this, but: I seriously don't want to hear a peep from anyone who didn't get out and vote.

Not. A. Motherfucking. Peep.

Also those that voted write-in or third-party.

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23371 on: November 13, 2016, 11:27:05 PM »
Also anyone tied to the HRC campaign. Get out of politics for good.
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23372 on: November 13, 2016, 11:31:45 PM »
LOL at Trump on 60 Minutes basically saying he wasn't going to do anything he promised during the campaign. The wall? He's okay with some fences. Getting rid of ObamaCare? Well, he'll keep the good parts like pre-existing conditions and kids staying on until 26. Locking up Hillary? Well, he doesn't want to be too hard on her, she's done a lot of good for the country. Getting rid of LGBTQ marriage rights? No way, it's already been decided by the courts, total non-issue, won't even consider revisiting it.

I wouldn't be so worried now if not for his cabinet and those he's surrounded with and emboldening awful people

If he had a vp pick I could support I wouldn't be still be losing my shit

Exactly.  Trump comes across as an idiot and liar, but he's so unknowledgeable about everything his views always seem like shooting from the hip in a GWB but way worse way.  Could live with that for 4 years.  He also seems scared of people not liking him and being against him because he's got thin skin which would theoretically make him not do anything too crazy like how he's already backtracking in interviews.

The problem is that he's appointing everyone he knows and everyone he knows are terrible people because everyone else called him on his shit and bailed.  His cabinet is insanely horrible people who unlike Trump aren't just kinda dumb & uninformed, they know what they're doing and they're insidious and filled with hate and will be pushing their agendas.  This is what makes the next 4 years so incredibly frightening.  If Trump had like backed off his loyalists and picked top smart people in various industry, maybe more centralist people, it would be night & day.

There's also the fact that he has lied so much WE HAVE NO REASON TO BELIEVE A THING HE SAID ON THE 60 MINUTES INTERVIEW.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/the-american-media-is-completely-unprepared-to-cover-a-trump-presidency/507476/
IYKYK

Bebpo

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23373 on: November 13, 2016, 11:38:34 PM »
The silver lining is that half the country didn't and most of dems base didn't even show up. They ran a shit campaign and it's no wonder they lost but plenty of new and old blood to mine.

They ran a shit campaign and still count the 2nd most votes for any president ever (after Obama)?  I agree with you on the badly ran campaign and all the issues, but the whole comforting ourselves that people didn't show up to vote and once they do everything will be ok is kind of off since votes were only down compared to Obama (who was an exception).  Part of the problem was on election night and the day after when we were getting the early data on voter count it was missing 4 million+ uncounted votes.

Basically, don't jinx it.  Dems need to do everything they can to be united and get independents on their side next election.  Cannot get complacent for a second. 

agrajag

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23374 on: November 13, 2016, 11:42:50 PM »
The only answer is for minorities to procreate at a much faster rate than white people  :doge

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23375 on: November 13, 2016, 11:47:02 PM »
They ran a shit campaign and still count the 2nd most votes for any president ever (after Obama)?
1. Obama (2008) - 69.5 million
2. Obama (2012) - 65.9 million
3. W. Bush (2004) - 62.0 million
4. Clinton (2016) - 61.0 million
5. Romney (2012) - 60.9 million
6. Trump (2016) - 60.4 million
7. McCain (2008) - 59.9 million
8. Kerry (2004) - 59.0 million
9. Reagan (1984) - 54.5 million
10. Gore (2000) - 51.0 million

You'll notice the top eight popular vote totals are all this century...

agrajag

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23376 on: November 13, 2016, 11:47:50 PM »
http://www.wsj.com/articles/leading-contender-for-donald-trump-s-chief-of-staff-is-rnc-chairman-reince-priebus-1479069597

Quote
After meeting with Mr. Trump, the only person to be elected president without having held a government or military position, Mr. Obama realized the Republican needs more guidance. He plans to spend more time with his successor than presidents typically do, people familiar with the matter said.

If that's not the script of an Adam Sandler comedy..

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23377 on: November 13, 2016, 11:55:30 PM »
The silver lining is that half the country didn't and most of dems base didn't even show up. They ran a shit campaign and it's no wonder they lost but plenty of new and old blood to mine.

They ran a shit campaign and still count the 2nd most votes for any president ever (after Obama)?  I agree with you on the badly ran campaign and all the issues, but the whole comforting ourselves that people didn't show up to vote and once they do everything will be ok is kind of off since votes were only down compared to Obama (who was an exception).  Part of the problem was on election night and the day after when we were getting the early data on voter count it was missing 4 million+ uncounted votes.

Basically, don't jinx it.  Dems need to do everything they can to be united and get independents on their side next election.  Cannot get complacent for a second.

Didn't say they should get complacent just that there's for expansion
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chronovore

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23378 on: November 14, 2016, 12:42:00 AM »

Phoenix Dark

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23379 on: November 14, 2016, 01:35:24 AM »
They ran a shit campaign and still count the 2nd most votes for any president ever (after Obama)?
1. Obama (2008) - 69.5 million
2. Obama (2012) - 65.9 million
3. W. Bush (2004) - 62.0 million
4. Clinton (2016) - 61.0 million
5. Romney (2012) - 60.9 million
6. Trump (2016) - 60.4 million
7. McCain (2008) - 59.9 million
8. Kerry (2004) - 59.0 million
9. Reagan (1984) - 54.5 million
10. Gore (2000) - 51.0 million

You'll notice the top eight popular vote totals are all this century...

Clinton will be ahead of W by the end of the month.
010

CatsCatsCats

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23380 on: November 14, 2016, 01:50:27 AM »
Let the fleecing begin

Syph

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23381 on: November 14, 2016, 01:53:36 AM »
LOL at Trump on 60 Minutes basically saying he wasn't going to do anything he promised during the campaign. The wall? He's okay with some fences. Getting rid of ObamaCare? Well, he'll keep the good parts like pre-existing conditions and kids staying on until 26. Locking up Hillary? Well, he doesn't want to be too hard on her, she's done a lot of good for the country. Getting rid of LGBTQ marriage rights? No way, it's already been decided by the courts, total non-issue, won't even consider revisiting it.
Trump being anti-gay is a garbage left-wing talking point
Pence I won't defend but saying Trump hates gays (not that you said that, I mean people in the media) is wrong.



Oh wow, I had missed the part at the start of the interview when he was asked if he'd tone down his rhetoric now that he's president, and he straight up said sometimes you need that kind of crazy rhetoric to get people motivated in the first place. He might as well have winked to the camera while saying it.
I also don't get how people are mad at this. Isn't this what everyone on the left secretly hoped for in the case that he won? That it was all a game and he's not actually as extreme as he was on the campaign trail?

They ran a shit campaign and still count the 2nd most votes for any president ever (after Obama)?
1. Obama (2008) - 69.5 million
2. Obama (2012) - 65.9 million
3. W. Bush (2004) - 62.0 million
4. Clinton (2016) - 61.0 million
5. Romney (2012) - 60.9 million
6. Trump (2016) - 60.4 million
7. McCain (2008) - 59.9 million
8. Kerry (2004) - 59.0 million
9. Reagan (1984) - 54.5 million
10. Gore (2000) - 51.0 million

You'll notice the top eight popular vote totals are all this century...
this continues to be one of the dumbest media grasping at straws talking points
talk about fucking percentages
what, you're telling me the population increased and more people voted? wow!
this just in, clinton got more votes than reagan or even lincoln! and she still lost! election rigged!!!!
XO

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23382 on: November 14, 2016, 02:02:38 AM »
this continues to be one of the dumbest media grasping at straws talking points
talk about fucking percentages
what, you're telling me the population increased and more people voted? wow!
this just in, clinton got more votes than reagan or even lincoln! and she still lost! election rigged!!!!
Trump and others were promoting the same thing regarding his primary vote total, even though he had the lowest % of any nominee in the post-McGovern Reform era. Reagan got a higher share when he lost to Ford in 1976.

Rush Limbaugh had a segment where he couldn't seem to understand that 13 million people is only like 10% of the general election electorate and was trying to use this to debunk the polls. :lol

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23383 on: November 14, 2016, 02:13:13 AM »
LOL at Trump on 60 Minutes basically saying he wasn't going to do anything he promised during the campaign. The wall? He's okay with some fences. Getting rid of ObamaCare? Well, he'll keep the good parts like pre-existing conditions and kids staying on until 26. Locking up Hillary? Well, he doesn't want to be too hard on her, she's done a lot of good for the country. Getting rid of LGBTQ marriage rights? No way, it's already been decided by the courts, total non-issue, won't even consider revisiting it.
Trump being anti-gay is a garbage left-wing talking point
Pence I won't defend but saying Trump hates gays (not that you said that, I mean people in the media) is wrong.

So he picks Pence as VP? He said accomodating trans people is too expensive. LGBTQ = not only gay.
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Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23384 on: November 14, 2016, 02:13:39 AM »
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23385 on: November 14, 2016, 02:53:12 AM »
I'm not mad but I won't believe it until I (don't) see it. Politicians lie all the time and assuming Trump was just trolling America to get elected is incredibly stupid in light of their serious nature and extremely wishful thinking. It's more than likely a way to get people to back off and stop protesting.
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benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23386 on: November 14, 2016, 03:11:17 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rSDUsMwakI
Quote
Rakka Kaze30 minutes ago
I think Oliver's Agenda is showing.
Self-awareness is an amazing and rare trait that he definitely doesn't have.
gasp, i never realized

brits hosting american tv shows debunked

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
Gryerdeili2 minutes ago
Donald, if you read this, deport this braindead man. Put the nasty animal out of its misery
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
tvar doasair  1 hour ago
TYT is the only news network I listen too.

Fuck mainstream media
[close]
[close]

Himu

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23387 on: November 14, 2016, 03:13:52 AM »
Oliver should have gone after the fact that Clinton lost the election on hubris as well.
IYKYK

VomKriege

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23388 on: November 14, 2016, 03:17:39 AM »
I admit I'm not super up on what's gone on in France the past 15 years, but it is very interesting to me that you say we are just repeating it, are there any good resources I can read to get an understanding of this?

Also, I feel like the bolded and the points you made around it are exactly what helped Trump rise and it is an important set of questions that need to be addressed going forward. We can't keep pretending the rural south and the rust belt don't exist.

To be clear, I am mainly talking at how the reaction to all this is phrased. "Normalization" is the second thing that is identical to some longstanding debates in Europe. The other one that struck me is when I read "Trump is right on the issues, not on the answers" which was almost word for word a quote from a former Socialist Minister that provoked a bit of a spat in France ("The FN has the right questions, not the good answers") 30 years ago (the far right issue here have been festering from that long).

There was some parallels drawn in the US press with Mussolini and Berlusconi but overall a lot of American political commenters didn't really comment and draw from the European experience beyond the Brexit, which was a poor point of comparison (referendum is not alike to an election). Not everyone can be up to date with Euro politics, I understand that, and even so it is hard to make 1:1 comparisons when the US is a strict bipartism system (something which to my knowledge doesn't exist anywhere in Europe, even the UK). Lots of Euro media and liberals were similarly blindsided by Clinton losing anyway...

Anyway, even if Trump doesn't do really anything, I think you're up for 4 shitty years just on account of who's potentially running the cabinet and the worst GOP talking points being validated in the election.

EDIT : I was reading in a Guardian article that Obama deported 3m people during his mandates, as a point of comparison.
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benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23389 on: November 14, 2016, 03:24:25 AM »
Quote
“I am very surprised to hear [of instances of intimidation by supporters] -- I hate to hear that,” Trump said in an interview with CBS’s “60 Minutes” conducted on Friday at Trump Tower in New York and broadcast on Sunday. “I would say don’t do it, that’s terrible, because I’m going to bring this country together.”

“I will say right to the cameras: Stop it,” Trump added.
Quote
Trump said he stands by past criticisms of the Electoral College system, in which each state is given as many votes as it has members of Congress, even though he’s headed to the White House because of it. Trump was one of only four people in U.S. history to become president without winning the popular vote. The last was former President George W. Bush, who received less votes than Democrat Al Gore in 2000.

“I’m not going to change my mind just because I won,” he said. “I would rather see it where you went with simple votes. You know, you get 100 million votes and somebody else gets 90 million votes and you win.”
Quote
the Republican said it was “irrelevant” whether he personally supports same-sex marriage.

“It was already settled,” Trump said Friday at Trump Tower, according to a transcript released by the network for the interview airing Sunday. “It’s law. It was settled in the Supreme Court. I mean it’s done.”
President-elect Trump never would have made it out of the GOP primaries.


overall a lot of American political commenters didn't really comment and draw from the European experience beyond the Brexit, which was a poor point of comparison
Look at how bad at those commentators are at discussing American politics, imagine them trying to wrap their heads around the average Yuropean election let alone its politics. Even American political science struggles to deal with it in a lot of the subfields. Which has always baffled me.

agrajag

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23390 on: November 14, 2016, 03:48:44 AM »
On one hand, Trump backpedaling on his awful promises means I won't be able to rub people's noses in how horrible his reign of terror is gonna be. On the other, I can still remind them how much of a demagogue I said he was.  :doge


Ryan is really trying to kill Medicare tho

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23391 on: November 14, 2016, 03:58:37 AM »
You fuck with Medicare at your own risk. Especially now that the Boomers are in it. Which is why Ryan is pulling the "everybody in or about to be in is fine, we're phasing it out to vouchers for younger workers" card. Even that will be difficult to get passed.

The unfortunate part is that something near those lines (or full fledged single payer) does need to be done but none of the ways to handle it are palatable to the parties involved. That's why Congress has by bipartisan votes held off the Medicare automatic reimbursement rate changes for 13 years now.

I still think the most likely thing is that they loosen up some of the requirements for ACA qualifying plans, tweak around the edges, kill a bunch of random pilot programs, keep the popular stuff like Trump singled out and rebrand it as something like TRUMPCHOICE.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if they don't centralize it more and take away more power from the states who have fucked up like Oregon. The GOP has a weird fetish for doing that and nobody ever cares about their rhetoric otherwise. :lol

If they can get something in place that halts or reduces even slightly the premium increases, even if it's through usage of those EVIL WAIVERS, that'll be cover enough to say they repealed the bad parts. The details are never going to matter to the base.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 04:03:08 AM by benjipwns »

VomKriege

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23392 on: November 14, 2016, 05:09:14 AM »
One thing that baffled me is how prominent data and stat model talk has been in the last stretch of the election, all while people insisted to stop the horserace narrative.

Not to deny those are powerful tools (mostly useful to policy makers though), but polling is pointless in actual debate over substance.
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benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23393 on: November 14, 2016, 05:29:05 AM »
Obviously not ideal, but Pew posted a chart that touches on some of the stuff we've been talking about in terms of the disconnect:



headwalk

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23394 on: November 14, 2016, 05:44:06 AM »
do you fellas like john oliver? maybe it's me being british but he just comes across as a shrill, bleating charicature of what every hard righter wants to paint every liberal as.

the sort of kid who the kids who were bullied at school took it all out on, and even his own parents knew it was basically his fault for demanding that he kept his books in a briefcase and drank his darjeeling at the teacher's table at lunch.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 07:13:30 AM by headwalk »

benjipwns

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23395 on: November 14, 2016, 05:56:34 AM »
I've always liked him personally, in acting and stuff, when he took over temporarily for Jon Stewart, and I like the long form presentations he does versus summing up just recent stuff. This episode was a bit much since he had already covered most of the ground in prior episodes.

A lot of the topics they cover are often overlooked elsewhere in media. It's kinda like Penn & Teller's Bullshit at times in that manner.

This one obviously was more politically focused so it was kinda meh but many episodes are (like Bullshit was) more "what the fuck at this?!? look at this shit" than pushing a major electoral agenda. Bullshit always had the libertarian lean and this has a progressive lean but I don't think it hurts it too much. Like the better times of The Daily Show.

And I guess I'm on the "right" for Bore purposes. But I've probably posted more of the segments in the thread for the show than anybody?

EDIT: I'm literally drinking Darjeeling tea right now. :omg

headwalk

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23396 on: November 14, 2016, 06:35:34 AM »
Is there a similar type of show in England where an American laughs at how stupid the country is every week? Wouldn't you think that guy is kind of an asshole?

the tabloids would eat them alive.

nudemacusers

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23397 on: November 14, 2016, 08:34:32 AM »
Re Oliver, it's kind of amusing, given all the talk of how the left ignored rural America throughout the campaign and reaped the consequences, that his "fuck 2016" send off consisted of either urban dwellers or celebrities.
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zomgee

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23398 on: November 14, 2016, 08:42:20 AM »
Sorry but: 



 :lol :lol
rub

agrajag

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Re: US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE
« Reply #23399 on: November 14, 2016, 09:07:29 AM »
I think he's terrible, and terribly unfunny dating back to TDS days. He's both every stereotype of liberals and of British people you can think of, down to the bad hair and teeth. I always take issue with foreign commentators speaking about the issues of a country they weren't raised in. I mean a whole show devoted to it, not just general commentary. It just seems so cocky, and John Oliver speaks with such authority in a "lol stupid fucking Americans" type of way that it's weird to me. Is there a similar type of show in England where an American laughs at how stupid the country is every week? Wouldn't you think that guy is kind of an asshole?

His rise on TDS is when I checked out for good.


If you're one of those immigrant types you should just stfu right