Why is it that game makers cant replicate the awesomeness of SNES RPGS

[Damian79]

All i want is a clone on any system of either Secret of Mana or Cronotrigger, is it really that hard to make a game like that any more?  I just don't understand.

[Damian79]

Wait are there any kick starter games like it?

[Positive Touch]

ill send you some great suggestions if you stop posting forever

[Damian79]

Says the guy with the Mystic Quest Avatar.


Anyway i forgot about Rainfall the Sojourn and Cryamore for Secret of Mana Clones.

Nothing for Chrono Trigger clones.

[Damian79]

uh, yeah, it is kind of hard to just casually poop out something on chrono trigger's level

it's debatable if anyone has managed it since.

There is a kickstarter project that reverse engineers(not a game) Chrono Trigger.  I should have backed that if only for nostalgia.

[D3RANG3D]

SNES era JRPG's are sleep inducing I subjected myself to a shitload of them recently...yikes.

[Himu]

Psx and ps2 annihilate snes.

[Damian79]

Psx and ps2 annihilate snes.

In terms of overall quality, yes but none of them are like Secret of Mana or Chrono Trigger.  The best game on the PSX is that Squaresoft RPG that was all brown.  Forgot the name.

[demi]

Legend of Legaia?

[demi]

No wait, Breath of Fire IV?

[Himu]

Psx and ps2 annihilate snes.

In terms of overall quality, yes but none of them are like Secret of Mana or Chrono Trigger.  The best game on the PSX is that Squaresoft RPG that was all brown.  Forgot the name.

Secret of mana isn't even that good anymore I don't think.

[Rahxephon91]

Brown=Vagrant Story.

[Damian79]

Brown=Vagrant Story.

Yup.

[Himu]

Snes rpgs are mostly good because their stories, not game play. Psx rpgs in a post super Mario RPG and chrono trigger world was when jrpgs started to get heavily experimental (Musashi, Legend of Legaia, Legend of Mana, FF8, Vagrant Story, Threads of Fate, Chrono Cross, Vagrant Story...wven Suikodens and Personas) and going beyond the beaten path. They also benefit from their stories as well, notably Vagrant Story. Ps2 is the jrpg at its absolute best in regards to gameplay. Virtually everyone started to dump random battles games like BoFDQ, VP2, FF12, FFX-2, P3/4 all mastered the jrpg in a game play sense and it has been downhill ever since.

What was so great about snes jrpgs? There were many classics for sure. But jrpgs have kinda gone past snes a long ass time ago in a game sense. Tell me: what was great about the game play in FFVI?

[Himu]

Meh. You could say that about system really. I don't think there is any system that got a bunch of crap put out west except ds.

[Himu]

Either way, we are arguing on the basis of perceived quality. I think that of the snes rpgs I've played (more than a few) with exceptions like CT, DQ5, the FF's..I greatly prefer psx and ps2. I think they have more quality in a more consistent basis. for example, snes had Tales of Phantasia. I think that is a flawed game that didnt work out. Tales of Destiny was much better. The same is true for Star Ocean1 -> Star Ocean 2.

[Damian79]

You know that mentioning Legend of Mana nullifies that list right?  Same goes for Legend of Legaia.

[Himu]

I didn't say they were great games. I was talking about experimental psx games. Legend of Mana sucks and I have years of beef with Chrono Cross.

[etiolate]

and FF8

[Himu]

I'd rather play Chrono Cross than Secret of Mana

[Great Rumbler]

You know that mentioning Legend of Mana nullifies that list right?  Same goes for Legend of Legaia.

Nope.

[Joe Molotov]

The only thing I remember about Legend of Legaia is the one girl asking you what a pimp was.

[Damian79]

I'd rather play Chrono Cross than Secret of Mana

What is exactly wrong with Secret of Mana?  IMO Secret Of mana had brilliant game design.

[Himu]

Action RPG system with turn based RPG like game play. I dunno, just isn't fun to me anymore. I find it very shallow.

[Damian79]

Action RPG system with turn based RPG like game play. I dunno, just isn't fun to me anymore. I find it very shallow.

As opposed to spamming the attack button willy nilly and winning fights?  I thought that system was great.  And most enemies you kill in 2 charges of attack.  And diiferent attack animations when you charge the attacks was a neat effect.

[Himu]

Chrono Cross is not a.game where you can spam. It has very intricate game play systems (elemental system for one) and a very steep difficulty curve bump. The bosses in Chrono Cross do not play, particularly Miguel and the dragons. Chrono Cross is many things, but having shallow game play is not one of them.

[MCD]

I remember playing a Chrono Trigger clone on my DS...

Now what was it called again..

[Damian79]

Wait is the action rpg thing the flaw or the turn based combat the flaw?

[Joe Molotov]

I remember playing a Chrono Trigger clone on my DS...

Now what was it called again..

Nostalgia?

[Damian79]

I remember playing a Chrono Trigger clone on my DS...

Now what was it called again..

Nostalgia?

There was really a Chrono Trigger clone on the DS but it was shit.  Unless you are talking about Radiant Historia.

[MCD]

I remember playing a Chrono Trigger clone on my DS...

Now what was it called again..

Nostalgia?

No, this shit:

[Himu]

So far nothing indicates you really mean snes rpgs and not just Chrono Trigger. CT is in the top 5 jrpgs period. Games like that don't come often.

[MCD]

I played plenty of better games than CT.

Suikoden, Grandia, Breath of Fire, Xenogears (at least the first disc), Xenosaga (KOSMOS IS MY WAIFU FUCK YOU), Chrono Cross (yes, it's better go fuck your animu pillow), Arc The Lad.

The list goes on and on.

[Damian79]

So far nothing indicates you really mean snes rpgs and not just Chrono Trigger. CT is in the top 5 jrpgs period. Games like that don't come often.

I only meant Secret of Mana and Chrono Trigger.   I just want clones of those.


You missed this:

Wait is the action rpg thing the flaw or the turn based combat the flaw?

[Human Snorenado]

I played plenty of better games than CT.

Suikoden, Grandia, Breath of Fire, Xenogears (at least the first disc), Xenosaga (KOSMOS IS MY WAIFU FUCK YOU), Chrono Cross (yes, it's better go fuck your animu pillow), Arc The Lad.

The list goes on and on.

 

There's some absolute shit on that list, McD.  If by Breath of Fire you're referring to DQ, then yeah, but everything else nope.

Now, if you'd listed Torment, BGII, etc then we'd have something to agree on.

[Damian79]

I played plenty of better games than CT.

Suikoden, Grandia, Breath of Fire, Xenogears (at least the first disc), Xenosaga (KOSMOS IS MY WAIFU FUCK YOU), Chrono Cross (yes, it's better go fuck your animu pillow), Arc The Lad.

The list goes on and on.

 

There's some absolute shit on that list, McD.  If by Breath of Fire you're referring to DQ, then yeah, but everything else nope.

Now, if you'd listed Torment, BGII, etc then we'd have something to agree on.

Dragon Quarter was awesome.

[MCD]

Dragon Quarter killed BOF so it's garbage by default.

Not comparing it to Western RPGs since they are different.

[Human Snorenado]

I played plenty of better games than CT.

Suikoden, Grandia, Breath of Fire, Xenogears (at least the first disc), Xenosaga (KOSMOS IS MY WAIFU FUCK YOU), Chrono Cross (yes, it's better go fuck your animu pillow), Arc The Lad.

The list goes on and on.

 

There's some absolute shit on that list, McD.  If by Breath of Fire you're referring to DQ, then yeah, but everything else nope.

Now, if you'd listed Torment, BGII, etc then we'd have something to agree on.

Dragon Quarter was awesome.

Correct.  It's one of the five best jrpgs ever made, and was so awesomely refreshing. 

As a reward for their innovation, the team issued a public apology and has never been heard from again, just proving that jrpg fans are the anal prolapse of video game fans.

[TakingBackSunday]

Xenosaga better than Chrono Trigger

give me cancer now god

[Himu]

I think suikoden II is better than CT.

Best jrpgs IMO:

Chronic trigger
Suikoden II
Dragon Quarter
Valkyrie Profile 2
Persona 3/4
Final Fantasy XII
Dragon Quest V



I'd take all over these over CT but CT is no slouch.

[Human Snorenado]

I don't really get the Suikoden II love... I found it to be an above average jrpg and nothing more, really.  I think it's the whole scarcity thing, I dunno.

[Himu]

I don't really get the Suikoden II love... I found it to be an above average jrpg and nothing more, really.  I think it's the whole scarcity thing, I dunno.

Naw. It has a great story and fun side quests. Just like Chrono Trigger it doesn't have gameplay depth going for it. A game that expands upon its prequel with A thousands of years of history and lore. That's why Suikoden II is coveted: the story and characters.

[MCD]

hahahaha arc the fucking lad is better than chrono trigger, right

mcd, you're moving up the list.  sceneman's title could be challenged anew!

You can't top this:

#t=462s

As for Suikoden, it's mostly about the themes and characters. No other RPG comes close to the trust, friendship and betrayal themes portrayed in Suikoden 2.

[Damian79]

Eh what?  Chrono Trigger's gameplay was its best part.  As a kid i beat that game from start to finish in 8 hours from scratch.  No need for grinding and you can bypass 80% of the enemies and still no grinding necessary.  The gameplay really shines when you are underlevelled.

[Human Snorenado]

Have to agree with damian (jesus it makes me question my sanity to type that) but CT's gameplay innovations at the time were a BIG deal in the genre.

[Himu]

I disagree. CT's battle system is nothing great. It is really fun and the encounter system is ahead of its time but I think that's about all I can say about it in that area. What I love about CT is the sense of adventure, not battles or gameplay. That's why I said snes rpgs are most famous for their stories and not game play. The main exception being FFV, Ogre Battle, and TO.

As for your "really shines when underleveled" argument I have used that same argument in favor of FF8. You don't want to go that rabbit hole as the same applies to any RPG. If I play an RPG for gameplay I certainly am not thinking of CT in any category. I don't remember any difficult battles in CT. All I remember is adventure and good feels.

Compared to something like Valkyrie Profile 2, CT is very bare bones to me

[Damian79]

I disagree. CT's battle system is nothing great. It is really fun and the encounter system is ahead of its time but I think that's about all I can say about it in that area. What I love about CT is the sense of adventure, not battles or gameplay. That's why I said snes rpgs are most famous for their stories and not game play. The main exception being FFV, Ogre Battle, and TO.

As for your "really shines when underleveled" argument I have used that same argument in favor of FF8. You don't want to go that rabbit hole as the same applies to any RPG. If I play an RPG for gameplay I certainly am not thinking of CT in any category.

That makes no sense, FF8's enemies scale with your level.  And no it doesnt apply to any rpg.  Have you tried going through FF1-3 underlevelled?

[StealthFan]

As an adult JRPG's are coma inducing. Unless it is a Shin Megami game that doesn't involve stupid teenagers going to school I can't fuck with them.

[Human Snorenado]

I disagree. CT's battle system is nothing great. It is really fun and the encounter system is ahead of its time but I think that's about all I can say about it in that area. What I love about CT is the sense of adventure, not battles or gameplay. That's why I said snes rpgs are most famous for their stories and not game play. The main exception being FFV, Ogre Battle, and TO.

As for your "really shines when underleveled" argument I have used that same argument in favor of FF8. You don't want to go that rabbit hole as the same applies to any RPG. If I play an RPG for gameplay I certainly am not thinking of CT in any category. I don't remember any difficult battles in CT. All I remember is adventure and good feels.

Compared to something like Valkyrie Profile 2, CT is very bare bones to me

...you didn't play CT on release, did you?  You also completely ignored my "gameplay innovations at the time" statement. 

READING MOTHERFUCKER, CAN YOU DO IT

[Himu]

I disagree. CT's battle system is nothing great. It is really fun and the encounter system is ahead of its time but I think that's about all I can say about it in that area. What I love about CT is the sense of adventure, not battles or gameplay. That's why I said snes rpgs are most famous for their stories and not game play. The main exception being FFV, Ogre Battle, and TO.

As for your "really shines when underleveled" argument I have used that same argument in favor of FF8. You don't want to go that rabbit hole as the same applies to any RPG. If I play an RPG for gameplay I certainly am not thinking of CT in any category.

That makes no sense, FF8's enemies scale with your level.  And no it doesnt apply to any rpg.  Have you tried going through FF1-3 underlevelled?

Just staying under leveled is the challenge in ff8 as it is so easy to level. Also, as leveling is the way to get better stats, you have a cap if you're under leveled as the enemies get harder. Battling every enemy without enc-none without leveling up on top of limiting your junctions will make the game more difficult. Many bosses will one shot you with a special attack by the end of the first disc.

The point is, limiting yourself in rpgs always (mostly) results in fun play because rpgs are typically very um...simple almost to a fault. Of course, games like bofdq, smt games, and vp2 don't have that problem.

Plus I'm sure I died more in suikoden II than in CT.

[Himu]

I disagree. CT's battle system is nothing great. It is really fun and the encounter system is ahead of its time but I think that's about all I can say about it in that area. What I love about CT is the sense of adventure, not battles or gameplay. That's why I said snes rpgs are most famous for their stories and not game play. The main exception being FFV, Ogre Battle, and TO.

As for your "really shines when underleveled" argument I have used that same argument in favor of FF8. You don't want to go that rabbit hole as the same applies to any RPG. If I play an RPG for gameplay I certainly am not thinking of CT in any category. I don't remember any difficult battles in CT. All I remember is adventure and good feels.

Compared to something like Valkyrie Profile 2, CT is very bare bones to me

...you didn't play CT on release, did you?  You also completely ignored my "gameplay innovations at the time" statement. 

READING MOTHERFUCKER, CAN YOU DO IT

Nope. I played CT about three years after its release via emulation. I still think my point stands. It is very funny how many jrpg fans will talk about how important game play is when they put Games like CT on a pedastal, a game where I never had a game over. Not saying there's anything wrong with CT, I just dislike the contradictions. I have always found CT really simple. That doesn't take away from the fun in any way.

Also me playing CT late is kinda impertinent in this discussion considering in 98 no one was doing anything remotely similar to CT. I went from random battles to what is in CT just like everyone else.

[ToxicAdam]

Personally, I think I over-rate 16 bit RPGs because you actually felt like you were getting value for your dollar. They weren't finished ridiculously quickly like Super Metroid and they weren't stupidly hard like SNES Contra or Sega's Chakra or Vectorman. They hit a nice sweet spot in challenge and length of game.

[Sho Nuff]

ANSWER

Everyone responsible for those games were put into management positions

[Himu]

Personally, I think I over-rate 16 bit RPGs because you actually felt like you were getting value for your dollar. They weren't finished ridiculously quickly like Super Metroid and they weren't stupidly hard like SNES Contra or Sega's Chakra or Vectorman. They hit a nice sweet spot in challenge and length of game.

Probably the best explanation I've heard in this thread.

[Human Snorenado]

I disagree. CT's battle system is nothing great. It is really fun and the encounter system is ahead of its time but I think that's about all I can say about it in that area. What I love about CT is the sense of adventure, not battles or gameplay. That's why I said snes rpgs are most famous for their stories and not game play. The main exception being FFV, Ogre Battle, and TO.

As for your "really shines when underleveled" argument I have used that same argument in favor of FF8. You don't want to go that rabbit hole as the same applies to any RPG. If I play an RPG for gameplay I certainly am not thinking of CT in any category. I don't remember any difficult battles in CT. All I remember is adventure and good feels.

Compared to something like Valkyrie Profile 2, CT is very bare bones to me

...you didn't play CT on release, did you?  You also completely ignored my "gameplay innovations at the time" statement. 

READING MOTHERFUCKER, CAN YOU DO IT

Nope. I played CT about three years after its release via emulation. I still think my point stands. It is very funny how many jrpg fans will talk about how important game play is when they put Games like CT on a pedastal, a game where I never had a game over. Not saying there's anything wrong with CT, I just dislike the contradictions. I have always found CT really simple. That doesn't take away from the fun in any way.

Also me playing CT late is kinda impertinent in this discussion considering in 98 no one was doing anything remotely similar to CT. I went from random battles to what is in CT just like everyone else.

JESUS CHRIST THAT'S MY WHOLE FUCKING POINT

You're confusing difficulty with new gameplay elements, mothefucker.  wtf is wrong with you.

[Himu]

No. We are.talking about Chrono Trigger's game play.

Introducing new game play features does not make the actual game play great. It is all about execution. In the end, CT has a poor difficulty curve, you can spend most of the game spamming attack,  and the battles themselves leave little in terms of depth. But it doesn't have to. CT is still a fun game.

My problem is the ascertion that CT has.not been topped when, if we are talking about game play, it was topped a long time ago.

Feels like people like Damian are just living in the past.

How many games were being made like Shenmue after its release? Exactly. New game play elements does not equate to great game play.

[Sho Nuff]

Personally, I think I over-rate 16 bit RPGs because you actually felt like you were getting value for your dollar. They weren't finished ridiculously quickly like Super Metroid and they weren't stupidly hard like SNES Contra or Sega's Chakra or Vectorman. They hit a nice sweet spot in challenge and length of game.

Probably the best explanation I've heard in this thread.

Ya that's pretty good too, gave you the opportunity to chill and walk through dungeons listening to spooky music without getting fucked in the ass like in Battletoads

[Himu]

Sorry breh. Just find it weird how gamers are all like GAMES TODAY ARE BABBY EASY AND ABOUT EXPERIENCES and shit then they gush about CT - a game I can beat without dying once and my most prized memories of it are stories contained. Then they're like GAMEPLAY and I'm all "what game play?"

Just weird shit.

[Damian79]

Just staying under leveled is the challenge in ff8 as it is so easy to level. Also, as leveling is the way to get better stats, you have a cap if you're under leveled as the enemies get harder. Battling every enemy without enc-none without leveling up on top of limiting your junctions will make the game more difficult. Many bosses will one shot you with a special attack by the end of the first disc.

The point is, limiting yourself in rpgs always (mostly) results in fun play because rpgs are typically very um...simple almost to a fault. Of course, games like bofdq, smt games, and vp2 don't have that problem.

Plus I'm sure I died more in suikoden II than in CT.

Of course, you probably killed every enemy in your way.  It is an easy game if you play it vanilla but if you do a speed run of it the gameplay is much more pronounced than FF8.  It is sad that you have to limit yourself to see it but the gameplay is definitely there.

For example what other rpgs have t and x shaped attacks that actually make a difference?

I thought doing it in 8 hours was special, ,this guy? did it in 3:40.
http://speeddemosarchive.com/ChronoTrigger.html

[Himu]

Scarlet beat FF12 in like 5 hours.