Game Of Thrones Season 5 thread of windy words

[Phoenix Dark]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

What sucks is when you realize halfway through book four that all the AMAZING SHIT that goes down in the latter half of book three was just Martin pulling the wool over your eyes brilliantly.  There's clearly no direct route he had planned to get from building the finale, he was just making it up as he went along.  All the people who died, the big plans, a mystery character brought in at the end, it's all just kind thrown in there. There's some good stuff in the books for sure, but they're a huge letdown from the first three.

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Which mystery character are you referring to?

I didn't get that impression at all. In fact many of the big events in the third book are either foreshadowed or outright prophesied in the second book - Dany sees the Red Wedding in the House Of The Undying, Patchface sings about it in the same book, and even Theon has a dream about it. That all happens in the second book. Likewise you've got Aegon in the House Of The Undying visions as well.

We can argue over book quality but if there's one thing I don't think is fair at all, it's the assertion that these things were just being made up on a whim. I can't think of many huge events off the top of my head that didn't have any groundwork leading up to it.

[close]

[Bebpo]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

What sucks is when you realize halfway through book four that all the AMAZING SHIT that goes down in the latter half of book three was just Martin pulling the wool over your eyes brilliantly.  There's clearly no direct route he had planned to get from building the finale, he was just making it up as he went along.  All the people who died, the big plans, a mystery character brought in at the end, it's all just kind thrown in there. There's some good stuff in the books for sure, but they're a huge letdown from the first three.

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Which mystery character are you referring to?

I didn't get that impression at all. In fact many of the big events in the third book are either foreshadowed or outright prophesied in the second book - Dany sees the Red Wedding in the House Of The Undying, Patchface sings about it in the same book, and even Theon has a dream about it. That all happens in the second book. Likewise you've got Aegon in the House Of The Undying visions as well.

We can argue over book quality but if there's one thing I don't think is fair at all, it's the assertion that these things were just being made up on a whim. I can't think of many huge events off the top of my head that didn't have any groundwork leading up to it.

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think he means Stoneheart. 

I actually liked all the foreshadowing Martin does.  Like I remember hearing about Stannis in Book 1 and thinking he's gonna be real important latter.  They gave a good impression and built him up well before he even appeared in Book 2.  Likewise, they built up Mance Rayder through rumours and stuff from the start and same with Ramsay.  I loved how they start talking about this psycho crazy bastard of Bolton through rumors in either book 1 or book 2 and slowly and slowly you keep hearing more about him and getting a picture painted and then surprise Reek turns out to be him and it becomes a huge arc that eventually takes the place of the Lannisters in Book 4/5.  I feel like a lot of the stuff in book 4/5 was built up earlier in the series and it's a nice payoff seeing it play out.  I think Book 6 is gonna be a lot of payoff, so definitely pretty excited for that whenever it gets a release date.

[close]

[Himu]

Gotta say, with how much the show has been irking me lately, I'd been considering reading the books just to see if they're any better than show, as I've heard it's gone pretty far off the rails in relation to the books lately. The talk about the books on the last couple pages makes me feel like I won't like them any better than the show though. Worth a shot? How many books in til they get lame?

The problem with the ASOIAF troll train is that they often paint the books as not worth reading. Not true. The first three books are fantastic and perfect compliments to the show. The books delve into places the show only hinted at. The books contain a vast world and myriad of characters with different viewpoints and struggles and despite all of this remains coherent. Book three, A Storm of Swords, is one of the best fantasy novels I've ever read. The problem is books 4 and 5, which really aren't terrible. They have their problems, the biggest of which being pacing, but they also have entire sections where you just can't put the book down. So I think calling them terrible is more than harsh, despite their very glaring flaws, and I think from a fan perspective, they're still worth reading due to hose very good moments. And, honestly, I'm not sure why anyone would expect more of the same after the complete blood bath that was ASOS.

Read the books if you want fuller, more in-depth story that isn't full of bad characterization of the sake of shock value. That's not to say the books don't have their moments with being hamfisted, but they do it much less. Want to know the history behind every location? Want to know who Jon Snow's parents are without being rendered into confusion (I'm fully expecting "who the hell is that?" When its revealed on the show) because the show couldn't be assed to develop the backstory or history? Want to know what the characters are thinking and their motivations? Read the books. The show is like ASOIAF Sparknotes in how it treats a lot of the story, but that should be a reasonable expectation due to the limitations of different medium adaptation.

The books and show aren't either/or. They are natural compliments. I think enjoying the show will help you enjoy the books more, and possibly, vice versa.

[seagrams hotsauce]

Gotta say, with how much the show has been irking me lately, I'd been considering reading the books just to see if they're any better than show, as I've heard it's gone pretty far off the rails in relation to the books lately. The talk about the books on the last couple pages makes me feel like I won't like them any better than the show though. Worth a shot? How many books in til they get lame?

The problem with the ASOIAF troll train is that they often paint the books as not worth reading. Not true. The first three books are fantastic and perfect compliments to the show. The books delve into places the show only hinted at. The books contain a vast world and myriad of characters with different viewpoints and struggles and despite all of this remains coherent. Book three, A Storm of Swords, is one of the best fantasy novels I've ever read. The problem is books 4 and 5, which really aren't terrible. They have their problems, the biggest of which being pacing, but they also have entire sections where you just can't put the book down. So I think calling them terrible is more than harsh, despite their very glaring flaws, and I think from a fan perspective, they're still worth reading due to hose very good moments. And, honestly, I'm not sure why anyone would expect more of the same after the complete blood bath that was ASOS.

Read the books if you want fuller, more in-depth story that isn't full of bad characterization of the sake of shock value. That's not to say the books don't have their moments with being hamfisted, but they do it much less. Want to know the history behind every location? Want to know who Jon Snow's parents are without being rendered into confusion (I'm fully expecting "who the hell is that?" When its revealed on the show) because the show couldn't be assed to develop the backstory or history? Want to know what the characters are thinking and their motivations? Read the books. The show is like ASOIAF Sparknotes in how it treats a lot of the story, but that should be a reasonable expectation due to the limitations of different medium adaptation.

The books and show aren't either/or. They are natural compliments. I think enjoying the show will help you enjoy the books more, and possibly, vice versa.

The bolded is what I was hoping to hear. I like the show well enough, but there are some flimsy aspects I've always wondered if weren't handled better in the books.

[Himu]

There are multiple. Season 2 being a great example. Dany is barely A Clash of Kings so the show, due to actor contracts, had to insert her into the season and stretch her story more than what it was. Her sections in the book are also AWESOME, which is a stark contrast to her time in season 2 by virtue of being limited to TV. The house of Undying would have a tremendous budget to be pulled off right, for example.

Another example is Jon Snow. Jon Snow is my favorite character and his sections in ACOK are amazing, but in a visual medium like TV, expensive in terms of budget. (Lots of cg required, scaling dangerous mountains;etc).

Last season, one of my favorite characters, Oberyn, was reduced to his character literally just being bi. The show takes liberties with a lot of characters it deems as shock, extrapolates those features.

The show is much less consistent If we are talking about quality, by pure virtue of the medium, low episode count, and the budget that would be required to pull it all off.

Basically, read the books.

[StealthFan]

I watch adaptations so I don't have to read

[Human Snorenado]

The first 3 books are really, really good genre fiction.

The 4th and 5th books are plodding, uneven messes with more boring points than worthwhile ones. Keep spinning, tho.

[Himu]

I don't think I'm spinning considering I have fully acknowledged their flaws. I've never made the argument AFFC and DWD were perfect. They aren't, but I still think they're worth reading. You could read much worse.

[Human Snorenado]

Eh, yeah you're right, you did.

One thing I'll say, though- they did a bunch of

various books spoilers ahoy

spoiler (click to show/hide)

R&L=J seed planting on the show this season... which you might not have noticed if you (as I suspect) haven't been watching the show this season.

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[Himu]

I haven't watched this season yet beyond the first episodes and some snippets. I'm waiting for it to end to marathon that bitch. Fuck waiting week to week. Netflix has spoiled me.

[Human Snorenado]

I feel that for sure. Marathoned all of Daredevil in one night.

[Himu]

Also as for your point

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I bet you most show only watchers still really don't know who Raegar is

[close]

Show only watchers: do you know who Raegar is? Don't look him up, just do you know who he is?

[Phoenix Dark]

I still think AFFC has Martin's best prose. The evocative introduction to Dorne, Jaime's vigil over his father's body, Septon Meribald's monologue about broken men...just some really good stuff. It's not a book of major events or plots coming to a climax but it's full of great dialogue.

"Egg, I dreamed I was old."

[Human Snorenado]

I still think AFFC has Martin's best prose. The evocative introduction to Dorne, Jaime's vigil over his father's body, Septon Meribald's monologue about broken men...just some really good stuff. It's not a book of major events or plots coming to a climax but it's full of great dialogue.

"Egg, I dreamed I was old."
(Image removed from quote.)

8 years ago, you thought Harry Potter was high literature.

[Himu]

AFFC

spoiler (click to show/hide)

cersei's maegi vision, walk of shame, Jaime throwing her letter in the fire

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People say Tyrion has the best character arc, but for my money it's Jaime. Have no idea what's going on with the show and him lately. When Andrex said Jaime's story was boring I literally raised my eyebrow.

[Human Snorenado]

AFFC

spoiler (click to show/hide)

cersei's maegi vision, walk of shame, Jaime throwing her letter in the fire

[close]

People say Tyrion has the best character arc, but for my money it's Jaime. Have no idea what's going on with the show and him lately. When Andrex said Jaime's story was boring I literally raised my eyebrow.

...it's bad. And when I say it's bad, you know it's bad. Jaime also has probably my favorite book story arc. Show this season tho...

 

[Himu]

They were handed that arc on a silver platter. What they do? Why is he in Dorne?

[Human Snorenado]

They were handed that arc on a silver platter. What they do? Why is he in Dorne?

Jaime is going to Dorne to rescue Myrcella with Bronn. He's an idiot that's still pining for Cersei on the show as far as anyone can tell.

[bluemax]

We'll see. I'm not expecting a Wheel Of Time type situation. Most readers are familiar with the struggles Martin had with those two books; he basically had to re-write a 1000 page book. With that structural problem solved it should be smoother sailing, narrative wise. My only concern is whether he can wrap it up in seven books. He says he'll be busy killing people off so we'll see, I guess.

I see it as essentially having the same issue. The show isn't perfect, but some portions of it have encapsulated the winding narratives of the last two books better than Martin had with less to say had it been translated to a book. I'm not a fan of overwrought narratives, the last two books definitely suffer it much in the same way Jordan did since his editor and wife never told the dude no. idk who the fuck GRRM's editor is but I'm not fond of them either atm. I don't care if your narrative piece has a million loose ends leading to a grand finale, you're already going so many directions within a set number of books and nothing is proving to me that you can lock it up. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, maybe he'll finish every side narrative with a neat bow. I doubt the fuck out of it though, he's not as godly a writer as his stans make him out to be by a long shot.

Now that I think about it brehs, wasn't the trial scene nearly as dumb too? A squire dresses his knight, which means a squire would no doubt see his knight nude at some point or another. Hell the show touched on this earlier with Podrick removing Brienne's armor. So why would a squire knowing intimate details of his knight's body be slam dunk evidence in a trial? Especially a trial for a religion that regulates knighthood.

Yes to all of that. Which is why most people are harping on that trial too. Margery got put in, not for being so suspect that she couldn't be trusted to sire a true heir, but rather cause she lied to some fucking cacs who got their shit in a bunch over her lying about her gay brother. It's all dumb and the proof was weak af.

Jordan's wife and publisher wanted him to keep the series going as long as possible because the $$$. I think GURM is just lazier and since he's making so much money no one in his camp is pushing him to finish the book. Now that he's sold the TV rights there's really no point in finishing the books. He won't be getting any more popular than he is currently, and once the TV show is over most of his new fanbase will move on to the next big thing.

[Himu]

They were handed that arc on a silver platter. What they do? Why is he in Dorne?

Jaime is going to Dorne to rescue Myrcella with Bronn. He's an idiot that's still pining for Cersei on the show as far as anyone can tell.

why even change this?

[Tasty]

Show only watchers: do you know who Raegar is? Don't look him up, just do you know who he is?

Ya, but I've probably looked him up sometime in the past lol.

[bluemax]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

What sucks is when you realize halfway through book four that all the AMAZING SHIT that goes down in the latter half of book three was just Martin pulling the wool over your eyes brilliantly.  There's clearly no direct route he had planned to get from building the finale, he was just making it up as he went along.  All the people who died, the big plans, a mystery character brought in at the end, it's all just kind thrown in there. There's some good stuff in the books for sure, but they're a huge letdown from the first three.

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Which mystery character are you referring to?

I didn't get that impression at all. In fact many of the big events in the third book are either foreshadowed or outright prophesied in the second book - Dany sees the Red Wedding in the House Of The Undying, Patchface sings about it in the same book, and even Theon has a dream about it. That all happens in the second book. Likewise you've got Aegon in the House Of The Undying visions as well.

We can argue over book quality but if there's one thing I don't think is fair at all, it's the assertion that these things were just being made up on a whim. I can't think of many huge events off the top of my head that didn't have any groundwork leading up to it.

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think he means Stoneheart. 

I actually liked all the foreshadowing Martin does.  Like I remember hearing about Stannis in Book 1 and thinking he's gonna be real important latter.  They gave a good impression and built him up well before he even appeared in Book 2.  Likewise, they built up Mance Rayder through rumours and stuff from the start and same with Ramsay.  I loved how they start talking about this psycho crazy bastard of Bolton through rumors in either book 1 or book 2 and slowly and slowly you keep hearing more about him and getting a picture painted and then surprise Reek turns out to be him and it becomes a huge arc that eventually takes the place of the Lannisters in Book 4/5.  I feel like a lot of the stuff in book 4/5 was built up earlier in the series and it's a nice payoff seeing it play out.  I think Book 6 is gonna be a lot of payoff, so definitely pretty excited for that whenever it gets a release date.

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

His foreshadowing is so fucking hamfisted and obvious. There's nothing subtle about what he does in the first 3 books.

"I'm not dead yet mother!"

[close]

[Human Snorenado]

genre fiction.

Genre is a myth.

 

[Bebpo]

AFFC was great.

(Image removed from quote.)

If you cut out Brienne's arc which is pretty boring, what's left is:

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cersei arc (Margery competition = yawn, but Tower part half is great), Jaime arc (great), Ironborn arc (great)

[close]

I think AFFC is pretty great, but a lot of the book is Brienne walking around fleshing out the world post-war of the Five Kings, not much plot happening there, just background fleshing out.

[Bebpo]

Oh yeah, I forgot Dorne was in Book 4, Dorne was great in the books.

[Himu]

Cersei plot in AFFC fucking owns. Bebpo you cray.

[Bebpo]

Cersei plot in AFFC fucking owns. Bebpo you cray.

The Margery jealousy stuff was really drawn out and lame.  The rest is great yeah.

[Dickie Dee]

Being inside Cersei's head was some of the best dark comedy in the entire series.

[Himu]

Cersei plot in AFFC fucking owns. Bebpo you cray.

The Margery jealousy stuff was really drawn out and lame.  The rest is great yeah.

Naw. Cersei and Margy is Cersei's insanity

[Dickie Dee]

*sniffs and tugs on braid*

[studyguy]

I don't agree with all of this post but fanboys should pay attention to this:

If anything, Book IV and V of SoI&F have a lot in common with the meandering nature of say, Book VII or VIII of Wheel of Time.

I'd been thinking similar when i was reading through AffC and ADWD; a lot of the same tedium that stans defended in Lord of Chaos -> Path of Daggers.

it's 'worldbuilding', isn't it though?

Worldbuilding with no discernible plot progression is some bullshit tho.
If you want that kind of shit, go read some Malazan Gardens of the Moon and wank over the 'incredible world building' Erikson does at the expense of literally everything else that only the most autistic fantasy stans can appreciate.

Fuck all that.
Shit reads exactly how you'd expect an archaeologist to write, boring.

[Human Snorenado]

I agree with JD, which means you know the end is extremely fucking nigh. First 3 WoT books are pretty good, and AFfC and ADWD FOR SURE have a lot more in common with latter, meandering WoT books than the first three in the ASoIaF series.

[Himu]

This is exactly why Shenmue should never be finished.

[Steve Contra]

Martin fucked up books 4 and 5 so badly I'm being forced to agree with Jaydubya

[Human Snorenado]

Don't talk shit about the Malazan series.



He starts in media res on purpose. The series really rewards paying attention and re-reading at least once, and most importantly HE FUCKING FINISHED 10 BOOKS IN THE SERIES IN THE TIME IT BASICALLY TAKES MARTIN TO WRITE TWO.

[Himu]

What are some good fantasy books for me to read if love the first three ASOIAF books?

[studyguy]

If you want something closer to the low fantasy style of ASOIF then read shit like Black Company. That's sufficiently low fantasy with bouts of magic here and there. Everyone's an asshole too so there you go. I'm also partial to the First Law trilogy as well. Has that political maneuvering, adventuring, people getting fucked and all the horseshit you expect with less characters and a story that gets to the point.

[Kara]

JayDub's impressive knowledge of nerd things forcing supplication from long-time foes.

[Himu]

What are some good fantasy books for me to read if love the first three ASOIAF books?

So let's see, you want dark fantasy novels in a crapsack world where the bad guys always seem to win?

Prince of Nothing comes to mind immediately.

Bad guys wining isn't that important to me.

Things I love about ASOIAF:

- Almost every location has a rich history.
- All the history: the families, the crests, their pasts and how they connect
- The fact it feels like a connected world. I never got that from say, Lord of the Rings.
- Every country and territory has its own history, religion. I love how religion comes to plan in these books, and how each territory treats it. Like, I'm fascinated that the north Gods have power in the north, because that's where the white trees are and they can see, but all the trees were cut down in the south, so the Gods don't have power there. That's one of my favorite fucking things about ASOIAF.
- Further, I love how the Gods are actually real, but it's never overt. Like, burning bushes and shit. Misandre has visions but little else. I love that the Red God has actual power, and it's not bullshit. More than that, I love that ALL of the religions are steeped in a relative truth, and it's not just bullshit.
- I love how the story initially has little to no magic, but slowly over time, it starts to envelope the world after the dragons are born.
- I love the politics.
- I love the multiple viewpoints and how each side is represented, but further, I love how the story also shows how the cruel reality that wars back then and even now, are mostly just the powers at top flexing their muscle, and the people that suffer the most are the common people. Arya's viewpoint of the common people and their fates is fucking awesome, and really refreshing for fantasy which typically is about grand sweeping magic and being ABOVE normal. It's refreshing to see fantasy depict what happens to normal people in a world that is ever increasingly becoming anything but.

I just love the general spins on traditional fantasy in general.

[Human Snorenado]

What are some good fantasy books for me to read if love the first three ASOIAF books?

If you haven't read The Name of the Wind and (to a lesser extent) The Wise Man's Fear, you're really missing out.

[studyguy]

Plus one for The First Law trilogy, though I still need to buy and trad the third...

The final book of the First Law is fucking dope. Like I was sorta okay on most of it but shit that book ends on a high note.
Three books, decent length. Plenty of everything that is in ASOIF just shorter and more directed.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

EVERYTHING ELSE JOE AMBERCROMBIE WRITES IS SORTA SHIT THO
That dude was like 1 and done for me

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[Phoenix Dark]

What are some good fantasy books for me to read if love the first three ASOIAF books?

The Book Of The New Sun. Gene Wolfe is the best writer mentioned in this thread.

[Steve Contra]

*sniffs and tugs on braid*

(Image removed from quote.)

[studyguy]

Not enough clenched fist or teeth tho on that list.

[Dickie Dee]

Martin and Jordan might have in common losing the plot, unfocused narrative, side character-creep, etc. but the main difference is that Martin never actually a became shitty writer. Pick a random page from GoT and AFfC and you probably couldn't tell the difference.

Along with everything else, Jordan's prose went in the shitter.

[Phoenix Dark]

Let me get this straight: are people here saying the first three WoT books are better than the first three ASOIAF books.


and I actually like the beginning of WoT, I'm not throwing shots. But come on.

[studyguy]

Eye of the World is pretty fucking hard to beat tbh.
That's honestly as good a start as any fantasy title I've read, whether it matches up 1:1 with ASOIF's first book is up to the person reading. 

Also yeah, the arc seems oddly familiar in terms of quality, but whatever.
Books 4-5 are trash, in retrospect everyone's going to agree with the sentiment that it's the shit leg of the series once it's done.
Assuming he doesn't somehow shit the bed in closing the story. If Jordan could wrap it up after the slog that was the middle of WoT I have faith GRRM prob can too.

[Phoenix Dark]

Haven't finished WoT but I've really heard mixed stuff on Sanderson's finish. Some really like it and felt he greatly improved the series, others hated it, etc.

My brother has been demanding I start The Stormlight Archive asap, I'll have to get on that I guess. Not a fan of his take on magic, and I've heard the Stormlight book take that shit to the nth level of pewpewpew.

[Rufus]

What are some good fantasy books for me to read if love the first three ASOIAF books?

If you haven't read The Name of the Wind and (to a lesser extent) The Wise Man's Fear, you're really missing out.

Unless you can't stand young adult literature and incredibly Gary Stu main characters.

[CatsCatsCats]

Someone send me The Book of the New Sun in epub format, please and thank you

[Phoenix Dark]

I can respect that view. If you're into high fantasy moreso than "grimdark" or whatever you want to call ASOIAF/The Black Company/etc then WoT will appeal to you more. But I definitely feel like ASOIAF is superior in terms of characterization and writing.

[studyguy]

I certainly liked reading the first three Wheel of Time books better than I liked reading the first three Song of Ice and Fire books.

Wheel of Time is heroic journey / high fantasy.  That's more my cup of tea than dark and crapsack with a healthy portion of Machiavellian antics.

I would recommend either series.  Both series do eventually go off the rails, and I would warn folks of that fact beforehand.

You can take the first three Wheel books as a standalone trilogy and they'd still be a good story with clear acts and a resolution.

When I was done reading the first 3 Song books, I was just struck by how we had a lot of dead Lannisters and Starks and very little movement towards the ice monster necromancy problem.

You could make damn good fantasy action films out of Wheel of Time,  and I hope that happens someday.

Not while the current dudes have the rights breh.
Whoever owns the rights did it like real, REAL dirty releasing this POS.

 

Billy Zane must have hit real hard times

[Dickie Dee]

Someone send me The Book of the New Sun in epub format, please and thank you

I read the first one and just didn't get it, like I know it's supposed to be great but it wasn't connecting in any way.

[Phoenix Dark]

Your prose isn't bad either, Walrus-san.

[studyguy]

Fuck there's going to be more Dorne on Sunday and in the rest of this season.

[Human Snorenado]

Fuck there's going to be more Dorne on Sunday and in the rest of this season.

Maybe it will get better!

...it's not gonna get any better.

[I'm a Puppy!]

Hey, I was hoping that one sandsnake girl will tell us who she is again. I keep forgetting.

[Phoenix Dark]

I just saw a bit of an interview where one of them says she trained for the fight choreography for over two weeks.


Nolan-esque fight choreography failures.

[studyguy]

I just saw a bit of an interview where one of them says she trained for the fight choreography for over two weeks.


Nolan-esque fight choreography failures.

All the fights so far this season have been

[Tasty]

Sandskanks need to calm their tits.