Other Forums Containment Thread

[marrec]

I think you're giving old JT a lil too much credit there, given he's one of the few lawyers who has a certificate proving that he's legally sane, because a judge made him go and get one.

That was all a part of the game my friend, Jackie boy knew he had to make himself seem like he wasn't a threat, meanwhile behind the scenes who is that pulling the puppet strings on Sarkesian... JACK THOMPSON?!

(Is Thompson Jewish, cause if he is please accept my sincerest apologies for the gross implication that Jewish people control the world)

[Uncle]

-> "Stop writing bland white bread male protagonists"

--> Devs start implementing diverse casts and settings

---> "White people shouldn't write and appropriate other cultures"

----> There isn't enough diversity currently in game development to continue to create games

-----> The games industry crashes and cannot recover

Jack Thompson: just according to keikaku

there seems to be this persistent belief across all media that certain groups of people are champing at the bit to enter the industry and become creators, if it weren't for all those damned white people gatekeeping

usually taking one sad story of one actual person who struggled (which shouldn't be condoned) and extrapolating from there without any data to back it up

so you "make space" and then nobody fills that void and you're left pulling faces about what a problem that is, endlessly, without stopping to consider that maybe some types of games or some types of spaces/jobs/opportunities might honestly be made for and by those people, and maybe that's ok

or creators do rush to fill that void but capitalism reveals that nobody wants to buy what they make, because all it has to offer is their minority perspective/moralizing, and isn't actually entertaining to that audience; people will applaud them and support them, but they're not going to buy it

[Pissy F Benny]

I think you're giving old JT a lil too much credit there, given he's one of the few lawyers who has a certificate proving that he's legally sane, because a judge made him go and get one.

That was all a part of the game my friend, Jackie boy knew he had to make himself seem like he wasn't a threat, meanwhile behind the scenes who is that pulling the puppet strings on Sarkesian... JACK THOMPSON?!

(Is Thompson Jewish, cause if he is please accept my sincerest apologies for the gross implication that Jewish people control the world)

no he's a christian and a patriot

[HaughtyFrank]

Jesus Christ


https://twitter.com/yourkyotowife/status/1490657202281005057

[Uncle]

they should embrace white people doing a bad job at representing other cultures because

• you get to shit on them and no one will publicly defend them
  
  
• it pisses off that culture and encourages them to prove those guys wrong and make their own better thing (which is the entire goal)

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

If people would rather play a videogame about another culture than actually go visit that fucking country, that's literally the opposite of colonialism

[SmokyDave]

Given that Chinese people are a tiny minority, I'm glad we have Malindy out here speaking on their behalf, and over their internalised white-capitulation.

If racism was publicly traded, I'd be buying stocks like mad.

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

I mean, you have to be actively and wilfully ignorant about gaming to drop hot takes about 'colonialism' in gaming when Tencent are - subsidiaries included - probably the biggest fucking games company in the world to shit on an indie french dev, who fucking aren't.

[bork]

So where is the backlash over Mario?  How dare Japanese developers depict an Italian man like that!

[Pissy F Benny]

Mario is Mexican bro

[Cauliflower Of Love]

Mario is Plumberian

[marrec]

-> "Stop writing bland white bread male protagonists"

--> Devs start implementing diverse casts and settings

---> "White people shouldn't write and appropriate other cultures"

----> There isn't enough diversity currently in game development to continue to create games

-----> The games industry crashes and cannot recover

Jack Thompson: just according to keikaku

there seems to be this persistent belief across all media that certain groups of people are champing at the bit to enter the industry and become creators, if it weren't for all those damned white people gatekeeping

usually taking one sad story of one actual person who struggled (which shouldn't be condoned) and extrapolating from there without any data to back it up

so you "make space" and then nobody fills that void and you're left pulling faces about what a problem that is, endlessly, without stopping to consider that maybe some types of games or some types of spaces/jobs/opportunities might honestly be made for and by those people, and maybe that's ok

or creators do rush to fill that void but capitalism reveals that nobody wants to buy what they make, because all it has to offer is their minority perspective/moralizing, and isn't actually entertaining to that audience; people will applaud them and support them, but they're not going to buy it

I wasted so much time typing out a 4000 word essay of a response, deleted, retyped...

This is definitely a multi-faceted issue that starts from elementary schooling and goes all the way up, you could point to each level of career development and see the increasingly smaller number of minorities following the path that would eventually lead them toward "game dev" and zero in on specific reasons for why talent is choosing a different path but I am certain this thread on this forum isn't the venue for that. [Note: Those reasons aren't all "white colonialism", some are cultural]

Just look at movie development or literature, it faces largely the same problems especially when it comes to "minority perspective" projects that spring from diversification efforts.

[Mostima]

What is even the problem here? I thought these people were all about having to hire diversity consultants and stuff like that, and the game had plenty of Chinese consultants, and artists. It's not like these woketards want these white Europeans to make games about their own culture because look at their reaction to Kingdom Come.

[HaughtyFrank]

What is even the problem here? I thought these people were all about having to hire diversity consultants and stuff like that, and the game had plenty of Chinese consultants, and artists. It's not like these woketards want these white Europeans to make games about their own culture because look at their reaction to Kingdom Come.

I totally forgot about that. "Only tell your own stories! WHAT THE FUCK WHY ARE TELLING YOUR OWN STORY"

And then there's the irony that this author from the US is now essentially shitting on the work of culture consultants from mainland China

[marrec]

What is even the problem here? I thought these people were all about having to hire diversity consultants and stuff like that, and the game had plenty of Chinese consultants, and artists. It's not like these woketards want these white Europeans to make games about their own culture because look at their reaction to Kingdom Come.

(Image removed from quote.)

They've moved the goalposts, now if a development team of non-Chinese people make a game based on Chinese culture it's colonialism because game development is zero sum and there are only so many games that can be made at one time apparently.

Some Chinese Development Team Seeing Sifu Release: "Fuck wtf are we going to do they made the game including Chinese culture and now we can't!"

The Uyghur development team couldn't be reached for comment.

[ShutUp]

“ENOUGH with the white male leads in games!”

*Sifu*

“Oh great, this game starring an Asian guy was made by white developers. When will this stop!?”

So…should they just make games starring bald white space marines then? The very thing the blue hair brigade has railed against for how long now? Other devs out there seeing some of the absurd reactions to this game must be wondering if it’s even worth it to bother making a game with anything but a white character, which long term sucks because seeing POC main characters IS still far too rare.

[SmokyDave]

The more I hear about these ‘white peoples’, the more I suspect they’re some kind of gods, or magicians.

[bork]

The more I hear about these ‘white peoples’, the more I suspect they’re some kind of gods, or magicians.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

[BIONIC]

The more I hear about these ‘white peoples’, the more I don’t care for them. They sound like real jerks. 

[benjipwns]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/thegamer-written-by-khee-hoon-chan-sifus-brawler-is-a-soulless-caricature.549553/

Our guy Slayven saying the line:

Reading that, I get the same vibe i get so often. Tired, just plain tired. But you know you have to say something cause it can always get worse

Reading that, I get the same vibe i get so often. Tired, just plain tired. But you know you have to say something cause it can always get worse

Seriously. The entire time Sifu has been getting marketed I've been watching it going "ummmmmm...."

This has been my worry with all of these games and movies and pieces of media that borrow aesthetics from Asian cultures without actually understanding the intricacies or the perspectives of those cultures themselves.

American media needs to do better than going "we have an Asian person consulting on our majority-white project that mines Asian culture for profit" and assuming that's enough to sidestep criticism. We need lead designers and directors of Asian descent. We need Asian writers and artists and composers. It doesn't matter if it's a Disney movie like Raya and the Last Dragon, or a Sony game like Ghost of Tsushima, or an indie game like Sifu - this shit keeps happening and it feels like the creative field isn't learning the necessary lessons despite the frequent recurrence of these problems.

We need to do better.

He would know, having gone to racism school.

[marrec]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/thegamer-written-by-khee-hoon-chan-sifus-brawler-is-a-soulless-caricature.549553/

Our guy Slayven saying the line:

Reading that, I get the same vibe i get so often. Tired, just plain tired. But you know you have to say something cause it can always get worse

Reading that, I get the same vibe i get so often. Tired, just plain tired. But you know you have to say something cause it can always get worse

Seriously. The entire time Sifu has been getting marketed I've been watching it going "ummmmmm...."

This has been my worry with all of these games and movies and pieces of media that borrow aesthetics from Asian cultures without actually understanding the intricacies or the perspectives of those cultures themselves.

American media needs to do better than going "we have an Asian person consulting on our majority-white project that mines Asian culture for profit" and assuming that's enough to sidestep criticism. We need lead designers and directors of Asian descent. We need Asian writers and artists and composers. It doesn't matter if it's a Disney movie like Raya and the Last Dragon, or a Sony game like Ghost of Tsushima, or an indie game like Sifu - this shit keeps happening and it feels like the creative field isn't learning the necessary lessons despite the frequent recurrence of these problems.

We need to do better.

I'm glad to see that PlanetSmasher has done their research and completely understands this issue from top to bottom.

[benjipwns]

The more I hear about these ‘white peoples’, the more I suspect they’re some kind of gods, or magicians.

This is the premise of Robin DiAngelo's scholarship.

Specifically she believes that white people have psychic powers and therefore should never speak to and do their best to completely ignore Black people as to avoid directing their psychic powers towards harming them mentally. If you believe that you may have done a racism you should only speak to white people about it.

This has made her a millionaire. Any time someone on ResetERA.com mentions "white fragility" it is because of her success.

[Jansen]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/thegamer-written-by-chan-khee-hoon-sifus-brawler-is-a-soulless-caricature.549553/page-4#post-81695497

On the original article, calling drug users "junkies" in 2022 is pretty poor taste

This cat is correct, and is managing to outwake the other resetters at the same time. I like this poster.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/thegamer-written-by-chan-khee-hoon-sifus-brawler-is-a-soulless-caricature.549553/page-4#post-81696055

Ban me for it, but I think being offended by cultural homages is a uniquely American take.

Oh they're gonna ban you for that, have no fear.

You'll love the post that followed up that one.

Wtf you're at the top of the page where the fuck are the boobies at?

[benjipwns]

In 2022, the only reason white people should even exist is so that their inherent endless capital can be redirected towards marginalized communities. I literally can't think of a single other reason they should be allowed anymore.

[benjipwns]

Please understand that when I say white people should be exterminated I am not speaking of trans women who happen to be white through no fault of their own. Their constant oppression is simply a white supremacist form of rape.

[marrec]

Careful Benji if you keep this up Jordan Peterson is going to break down your door and show you his tan

[bork]

What is even the problem here? I thought these people were all about having to hire diversity consultants and stuff like that, and the game had plenty of Chinese consultants, and artists. It's not like these woketards want these white Europeans to make games about their own culture because look at their reaction to Kingdom Come.

(Image removed from quote.)

Has this image been posted on era yet?  Would love to see the responses.

[benjipwns]

I provide solutions for the scourge of whiteness and yet I am attacked. This is white supremacy in action.

[marrec]

A final solution for white people?

Where have I heard people talking about this before and why do I smell tiki torches?

[clothedmacuser]

What is even the problem here? I thought these people were all about having to hire diversity consultants and stuff like that, and the game had plenty of Chinese consultants, and artists. It's not like these woketards want these white Europeans to make games about their own culture because look at their reaction to Kingdom Come.

(Image removed from quote.)

Has this image been posted on era yet?  Would love to see the responses.

I'm sure those are all "White Passing" asians

[benjipwns]

[SmokyDave]

I can't fucking wait to exercise my claim over the Full English Breakfast.

Assemble your morning meal with care, lest I rain a scourge of red-faced pie-men upon ye.

[porkbun]

I can't fucking wait to exercise my claim over the Full English Breakfast.

Assemble your morning meal with care, lest I rain a scourge of red-faced pie-men upon ye.

beans and blood sausage

 

biscuits and gravy

 

[marrec]

I can't fucking wait to exercise my claim over the Full English Breakfast.

Assemble your morning meal with care, lest I rain a scourge of red-faced pie-men upon ye.

beans and blood sausage

 

biscuits and gravy

 

There has never been a more correct post in the history of The Bore.

[HaughtyFrank]

(Image removed from quote.)

Was someone an asshole to her when she celebrated Christmas? Is that where this comes from? "You were mean to me, now I need to be mean back"

This phenomenon where people with immigration background are upset by cultures mixing while the actual natives from that land are not sure is curious.

[SmokyDave]

You nutty bastards don't even know what biscuits are.

Regardless, much love to you and yours, keep eating your 'foreign muck', and stay the fuck away from my land-of-hope-and-glory breakfast.

Unless I invite you to. Which I do. Be discreet, and don't think you can just hand out my breakfast passes by proxy. You can't.

[Klelk]

If biscuits are called cookies
Then what are biscuits? Scones? 

[SmokyDave]

If biscuits are called cookies
Then what are biscuits? Scones? 

I haven’t tried them because I’m an ally, but they look sconey as fuck. Guessing that’s why they need gravy to avoid desiccating your ass as you eat them.

I feel like this thread is about to get ‘properly’ ugly. If so, I just want to say that each man should enjoy his own breakfast, and not concern himself with the breakfasting of others.

[Straight Edge]

Imagine eating the breakfast of literal colonizers.

[headwalk]

biscuits and gravy is exactly what i'd expect americans have for breakfast.

hotdogs in custard for lunch.

[Hap Shaughnessy]

That dude who does nothing but rage about his mum is back. This time she's hidden his $2000 slice of the pie from a $6000 inheritance. She also earns $2000 working a year while begging him for money.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ever-since-my-dad-passed-away-my-mom-would-guilt-me-and-ask-for-money-whenever-she-could-i-just-found-out-that-he-left-us-with-a-lot-of-money.548819/

My respect for that woman is at an all time high. Her troll game is strong

Thread is gone. Last I read he was going to move out, so maybe the poor woman will finally be free.

[marrec]

If biscuits are called cookies
Then what are biscuits? Scones? 

I haven’t tried them because I’m an ally, but they look sconey as fuck. Guessing that’s why they need gravy to avoid desiccating your ass as you eat them.

I feel like this thread is about to get ‘properly’ ugly. If so, I just want to say that each man should enjoy his own breakfast, and not concern himself with the breakfasting of others.

Alright now I let a lot go in this thread for the sake of reasonable discourse but a good southern buttermilk biscuit is going to make you rethink your life.

More seriously, they are very different from scones, they are like a fluffier, moist quick bread where as scones are much more dense and dry (and crumbly).

Yes I'm typing more on this subject because it's very important to me, I think the biggest difference is in the mixing and folding/cutting of the dough. You don't have to be super gentle with scone dough but you need to hand mix buttermilk biscuit dough and you don't even really mix it you sort of grab and release over and over to incorporate the ingredients without beating the gluten. The fat (I prefer crisco) HAS to be cold so as not to melt, and then you fold it like a layered pastry before cutting straight down.

[Lonewulfeus]

Toast soldiers

[NekoFever]

I love an English breakfast but one thing I’ll side with the Americans on is how to cook bacon. Thin, streaky and burned to a crisp

[porkbun]

Thread is gone. Last I read he was going to move out

 

I love an English breakfast but one thing I’ll side with the Americans on is how to cook bacon. Thin, streaky and burned to a crisp

Burnt bacon

 

Separating from my wife has sucked, but at least I can now eat bacon that doesn't look and taste like a charcoal briquet.

And I apologize for opening this can of worms, let us bond over the ocean for our mutual love of tig ass bitties.

 

[benjipwns]

It sounds like even if they were getting things checked, the person checking might have just been given a spreadsheet and expected to guess the context.

They say that they constantly played builds of the game

To do that, Sloclap engaged others of Asian descent, including Anlu Liu of Kowloon Nights, a video game investment fund, and Richie Zhu of Kepler Interactive, Sloclap's publishing partner. "Throughout the entire development of Sifu, we have constantly played builds and provided feedback," Liu told The Verge

Gotta say, it's kinda funny that the article calls out Sloclap for screwing up the translations, and, meanwhile, it seems that, not only are people in here unsure of the correct translation, but, the author also got it wrong.

https://twitter.com/crapstacular/status/1490879894502658052

Great points and yeah it's not like developers of Chinese heritage don't exist in Paris, same for brown/black developers in South Korea. If you are going to commit to depicting cultures and ethnicities outside your own, it's your choice to do the due diligence.

In my defence, the point I was trying to make is not that there are *no* Chinese-French developers in Paris, there almost certainly are a non-zero number of them, I'm just saying for a smaller studio specifically seeking those candidates out for FTE roles because you greenlit a game that is about Chinese characters or Chinese cultural elements is easier said than done, and even if you have the resources to do so, there's no guarantee that a Chinese-French dev will themselves be fluent in Mandarin/Cantonese or have expertise with finer spiritual things like reincarnation mythology or funeral customs or what have you, in any case.

Now, if the more salient point is instead that "no dev team should attempt to make a game about such topics without already having FTE staff who are knowledgeable about them", then that I think is a different point with its own merits and costs, but it's not simply a factor of their ethnicity. There are plenty of folks in the diaspora of different cultures who would probably not feel great having the full weight of "Cultural and Linguistic QA" levied at them just because their ethnic background matched that of the game's background, especially if they weren't hired just for that one game.

Ask your average Japanese-American if they can relay to you the creation myth of Japan, and chances are they probably can't. But if you're going to make a game based on the subject, your best bet is to find someone who can help you understand it, not necessarily just a developer who happens to also be Japanese. That's why I think hiring consultants specific to your project is probably the best plan to split the difference while still having someone semi-reliable review your content for anything hyper-egregious.

[HaughtyFrank]

*tweet*

https://twitter.com/crapstacular/status/1490881787215904768

"visited China a few times"

This is all a bad joke 

[marrec]

It sounds like even if they were getting things checked, the person checking might have just been given a spreadsheet and expected to guess the context.

They say that they constantly played builds of the game

To do that, Sloclap engaged others of Asian descent, including Anlu Liu of Kowloon Nights, a video game investment fund, and Richie Zhu of Kepler Interactive, Sloclap's publishing partner. "Throughout the entire development of Sifu, we have constantly played builds and provided feedback," Liu told The Verge

Gotta say, it's kinda funny that the article calls out Sloclap for screwing up the translations, and, meanwhile, it seems that, not only are people in here unsure of the correct translation, but, the author also got it wrong.

https://twitter.com/crapstacular/status/1490879894502658052

Great points and yeah it's not like developers of Chinese heritage don't exist in Paris, same for brown/black developers in South Korea. If you are going to commit to depicting cultures and ethnicities outside your own, it's your choice to do the due diligence.

In my defence, the point I was trying to make is not that there are *no* Chinese-French developers in Paris, there almost certainly are a non-zero number of them, I'm just saying for a smaller studio specifically seeking those candidates out for FTE roles because you greenlit a game that is about Chinese characters or Chinese cultural elements is easier said than done, and even if you have the resources to do so, there's no guarantee that a Chinese-French dev will themselves be fluent in Mandarin/Cantonese or have expertise with finer spiritual things like reincarnation mythology or funeral customs or what have you, in any case.

Now, if the more salient point is instead that "no dev team should attempt to make a game about such topics without already having FTE staff who are knowledgeable about them", then that I think is a different point with its own merits and costs, but it's not simply a factor of their ethnicity. There are plenty of folks in the diaspora of different cultures who would probably not feel great having the full weight of "Cultural and Linguistic QA" levied at them just because their ethnic background matched that of the game's background, especially if they weren't hired just for that one game.

Ask your average Japanese-American if they can relay to you the creation myth of Japan, and chances are they probably can't. But if you're going to make a game based on the subject, your best bet is to find someone who can help you understand it, not necessarily just a developer who happens to also be Japanese. That's why I think hiring consultants specific to your project is probably the best plan to split the difference while still having someone semi-reliable review your content for anything hyper-egregious.

Wow the nerve of these French assholes to force people of Chinese decent to playthrough their cultural abomination of a game and ask them to educate them on what they got wrong.

IT NOT THEIR JOB TO EDUCATE YOU MONSIEUR!

Plantation cosplay is what this is.

*tweet*

https://twitter.com/crapstacular/status/1490881787215904768

"visited China a few times"

This is all a bad joke 

ITS FUCKING GUACAMELEE ALL OVER AGAIN LMAO

[HardcoreRetro]

At least we know the kind of "fu" that writer should get.

[benjipwns]

Wow the nerve of these French assholes to force people of Chinese decent to playthrough their cultural abomination of a game and ask them to educate them on what they got wrong.

IT NOT THEIR JOB TO EDUCATE YOU MONSIEUR!

Plantation cosplay is what this is.

Please specify that these French assholes are white. I presume that they don't have any Algerians on staff, not that those of Algerian descent should be forced into subservient positions at intolerant white game developers of course.

[bork]

(Image removed from quote.)

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3634622

Twitter user Count Dankula countered that Cho had previously reported on how "Taiwan does Halloween the best," despite the fact that its origin lies in the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain:

"Can you explain why you celebrate Halloween (Samhain, a celtic festival) and you even have the gall to write several articles about how Taiwan does it the best?"

He then uninvited her from Halloween by saying, "Unless you are from a celtic nation or a celt invites you, you don't get to celebrate it." Count Dankula's comment also surpassed Cho's original post's 2,100 likes with 12,000 likes to his credit.

https://twitter.com/countdankulatv/status/1093634448015458304

[Joe Molotov]

Getting ratio'd by Count Dankula, rip.

[Drainage]

this shit keeps happening and it feels like the creative field isn't learning the necessary lessons despite the frequent recurrence of these problems

What shit keeps happening again? Wypipo trying to make more inclusive and representative games? Such horrible "problems" to see recurring in 2022. So tired.

[benjipwns]

Thank you again, mods. 🙏

User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissive Commentary Around Bigotry

I completely understand why people of that background are upset and ultimately you don't get to tell anyone else how to feel but I just saw that as another one of Jimmy Carr's dumb meaningless jokes, that are usually more miss than hit anyway. Obviously that isn't the case here as it has caused a lot of anger but it is far from the first time he has made silly jokes about serious events and topics, wars, the holocaust, paedophilia, terrorism, etc. It's pretty much his schtick.

I guess it's the privilege, or whatever you want to call it, of not being directly affected by the things he's joking about but I also don't get the sense of 'Jimmy is really going after the gypsies' as much of 'oh, that was a shit dark humour one liner' much like the ones he's done in the past about AIDS, Chernobyl or Fritzl. It's a cheap joke at the expense of a group who are prejudiced against but it just feels different to those comedians who want to constantly punch down because of genuinely questionable attitudes towards the oppressed group.

User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissive Commentary Around Bigotry

Did this person actually decide to sit down and watch a Jimmy Carr special with no prior knowledge of his previous material and made it all the way up to that joke before they got offended enough to turn it off and hop on Twitter, or did they quickly search for an offensive joke in his set, copy pasted, and say they find the joke appalling?

User Banned (2 Months): Concern Trolling Over a Sensitive Topic; History of Dismissive Behavior

Jon hasn’t changed. There’s some disturbing responses here.

How quickly the mob turns on their own. Always been frightening to see.

I am absolutely not surprised by his take here, it's in line for him. Cancelling/deplatforming was never his thing, he needs the hypocrites and the snake oil salesmen out there to ridicule and discredit them face to face.

User Banned (2 Weeks): Inflammatory Generalization; Dismissive Misrepresentation of Discussion

I really dislike this take.
Only chinese people can make a game/book/movie taking place in china ? Only europeans can make a game in europe or with castles ?
If there is one trace of racism or xenophobia in the game, i'm okay to put it in the trash forever but If people are offended for grammar errors, they are the problem.

And the big one:

I understand it is generally best to not partake in these types of threads if you don't really agree because it can take away from an important conversation, but I also think it is important to keep criticisms fair so as they don't entirely loose their value to the majority. Although I agree with this article in a basic sense, the OP, and think this thread deserves to exist, a few things I'd like to point out

1. It is a small indie developer doing a fairly ambitious project for the budget. Often times larger games from companies like Ubisoft have entire positions dedicated to researching the setting and culture that they are working and people still complain that isn't enough, this game obviously did/does not have that in their budget. I keep seeing people say they should've had a more diverse development crew from the start but imagine being an Asian guy working on textures and then the whole team keeps consulting you for literally everything. That is assuming there is an abundance of French/Asian game developers that also have skills suited towards this game..... It's a French company, It'd have to be an entirely separate hire to have a chance at appeasing the people here, that isn't a small ask for a indie studio.

2. Some of what people here seem to consider hamfisted is very directly ripped from movies like The Raid, Old Boy, etc...old hong kong action flicks....that are not American. Grammar errors are different but you cant really judge it for being campy or having a small stereotype here and there when that is often in the source material.

3. There is very, VERY clearly no malice.

so it talking about this stuff cool? Yeah, fans should point it out, just really doesn't seem like a place for Americans to be outraged let alone strait up condemning them with "we need to do betters".....and as for the people who are acting like there is no world in which Chinese people could be being a little sensitive, Chinese nationalists cancel culture is absolutely out of control so that is just an extremely weird take, honestly feels more like an attempt to bait.

If these mistakes are annoying to you, cool say it, if you hope studios try to do better in the future with this type of stuff, cool I do too, but imo coming out with terms like "soulless caricature"...frankly this article has done nothing at all to convince me it is deserving of such judgement, and if a foreign, indie studio wanted to take a shot at a southern North American setting and some things ended up a little off, I certainly would hope that this forum would have some basic human understanding and point out the mistakes without calling the entire work a soulless empty shell

If you're gonna take on a project like this, you need to make sure you're authentic to the culture in question. And while the Verge article mentions that there were Chinese consultants, the devs clearly didn't listen. Hiring Chinese developers for the project would've gone a long way in helping catch these issues early on.

As for your statement about there being no malice, that doesn't mean that these issues shouldn't be called. Ignorance may not be as bad a malice, but it's still bad. I should know, I discussed similar ignorance regarding anti-Blackness in Smash a while back.

100% agree, but I do think there should be a difference in the severity of the tone. This is deserving of constructive feedback imo, not hate or like I said the outrage a title like "sifu is a soulless caricature" implies. To me it isn't really fair to an indie studio ....although they could've done a better job, feel like they clearly tried their best to represent a culture they feel they are big fans of and FOR ME I don't think it is offensive enough to literally boycott the game even if I hope they hold more weight into details as they grow. Just dunno who playing this game right now could possibly call it soulless :l just isn't

User Banned (Permanent): Dismissive Commentary and Tone Policing Over Multiple Posts; Prior Bans for Similar Behavior and Account in Junior Phase

Your issue with the language seems like a tone policing diversion from all the good examination about the cultural elements that the writer went into with examples and explanations of how they're used in the culture, with plenty of reasoning why they thought it came off as soulless. It seems you and another poster are strawmanning the article by saying they're implying the developers are malicious or asking for boycotts when that is straight up lying. I don't know why you emphasise "FOR ME"? Isn't it obvious it's your opinion? Also, Sloclap is a studio with martial arts in mind from the beginning. They've had martial arts folks as involved since Absolver. That's why a lot of people got interested in their first game because they had real martial artists providing knowledge about the movesets and philosophy. So considering martial arts is not a part of white culture, they could have hired people from the background of it. Imagine as an empathic exercise if a developer made games cribbing from blaxploitation, Nordic culture, Native Americans, Hindu mythology, etc and didn't have people from the background in the team makeup. Consultants can only do so much. It inevitably leads to inaccuracies and inauthenticity because you're not living and breathing that culture if you're not raised in it. Hence why it can come off as "soulless", that it's just set dressing for exoticness or orientalism in this case.

If people want to have a harsh tone they are free to, but for the reasons I stated it really isn't deserved imo, and the title of the article linked in the OP itself is really unnecessarily harsh. If you want to make my post more about that then go ahead. That is me expressing my opinion on the article title. This talk on details in the article, great, I hope sloclap is taking notes,but a lot of them are non-issues/actually not that weird according to a Chinese poster in this thread, and imo it's clearly not a soulless game nor blatantly toxic in any way, not even close. They clearly needed, like, translator and it is a little embarassing for them....but at worse they clearly weren't as thorough as needed to be in the games cultural research which I'm more inclined to forgive given that it is an indie team, although it is obviously a blunder. I would agree that it is important for submersion, not because I think it is so horrible for a foreign team to not nail every single detail about a foreign culture that they clearly show no disrespect towards as to call it soulless though. The game has a lot of soul

[marrec]

We've kinda danced around this issue a bit but, there is a reason they call it the Chinese "diaspora". Local populations of Chinese heritage are not culturally monolithic with contemporary mainland China, especially in places like France where the local populations can trace immigration back over many hundreds of years. Why would you go looking through that group of people for the unicorn these commentators are envisioning when instead you can hire people who's job it is to consult on cultural issues?

Like Fukuzatsu said, hiring a French developer of Chinese heritage is not a magical get out of jail free card for your cultural depiction of China and it's kind of insulting that people are suggesting this would solve all the issues. Having cultural consultants is the exact thing that should have been done. Tokenizing some French-Chinese developer who may or may not have strong cultural ties to the specific Chinese culture being referenced all for the purposes of pointing to them when criticized about localization issues would be horrific.

[BisMarckie]

Look at this idiot not knowing that culture is inherited genetically.

btw. I am an expert on slavic culture

[benjipwns]

One more:

User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing Concerns of Racism; Account in Junior Phase

If you're gonna take on a project like this, you need to make sure you're authentic to the culture in question. And while the Verge article mentions that there were Chinese consultants, the devs clearly didn't listen. Hiring Chinese developers for the project would've gone a long way in helping catch these issues early on.

As for your statement about there being no malice, that doesn't mean that these issues shouldn't be called. Ignorance may not be as bad a malice, but it's still bad. I should know, I discussed similar ignorance regarding anti-Blackness in Smash a while back.

Why are you assuming the devs didn’t listen to the Chinese consults? The consultants could have approved everything, or thought certain aspects were not a big deal, or a few details just slipped through the cracks. It’s pretty unfair you’re throwing the devs under the bus with absolutely zero evidence.

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

User Banned (2 Months): Concern Trolling Over a Sensitive Topic; History of Dismissive Behavior

Jon hasn’t changed. There’s some disturbing responses here.

How quickly the mob turns on their own. Always been frightening to see.

I am absolutely not surprised by his take here, it's in line for him. Cancelling/deplatforming was never his thing, he needs the hypocrites and the snake oil salesmen out there to ridicule and discredit them face to face.

How in the actual fuck is this 'concern trolling'?
ELI5, and for bonus points explain how "this french made game with chinese consultants is deeply concerning to me, a singaporean who has visited china once or twice and am factually wrong on their supposed errors" corresponds with this definition of what 'concern trolling' means

[Potato]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/thegamer-written-by-khee-hoon-chan-sifus-brawler-is-a-soulless-caricature.549553/

Our guy Slayven saying the line:

Reading that, I get the same vibe i get so often. Tired, just plain tired. But you know you have to say something cause it can always get worse

Reading that, I get the same vibe i get so often. Tired, just plain tired. But you know you have to say something cause it can always get worse

Seriously. The entire time Sifu has been getting marketed I've been watching it going "ummmmmm...."

This has been my worry with all of these games and movies and pieces of media that borrow aesthetics from Asian cultures without actually understanding the intricacies or the perspectives of those cultures themselves.

American media needs to do better than going "we have an Asian person consulting on our majority-white project that mines Asian culture for profit" and assuming that's enough to sidestep criticism. We need lead designers and directors of Asian descent. We need Asian writers and artists and composers. It doesn't matter if it's a Disney movie like Raya and the Last Dragon, or a Sony game like Ghost of Tsushima, or an indie game like Sifu - this shit keeps happening and it feels like the creative field isn't learning the necessary lessons despite the frequent recurrence of these problems.

We need to do better.

He would know, having gone to racism school.

We need to do better. These brown/yellow/black people need white people to solve the problem of a lack of brown/yellow/black people in game development. If the whites won't solve the problem, who will?

[Potato]

We've kinda danced around this issue a bit but, there is a reason they call it the Chinese "diaspora". Local populations of Chinese heritage are not culturally monolithic with contemporary mainland China, especially in places like France where the local populations can trace immigration back over many hundreds of years. Why would you go looking through that group of people for the unicorn these commentators are envisioning when instead you can hire people who's job it is to consult on cultural issues?

Like Fukuzatsu said, hiring a French developer of Chinese heritage is not a magical get out of jail free card for your cultural depiction of China and it's kind of insulting that people are suggesting this would solve all the issues. Having cultural consultants is the exact thing that should have been done. Tokenizing some French-Chinese developer who may or may not have strong cultural ties to the specific Chinese culture being referenced all for the purposes of pointing to them when criticized about localization issues would be horrific.

Diaspora is a word of Greek origin. You don't just get to use it without permission you cultural tourist colonizer!!1!!11!!