The Culture War Thread

[Himu]

Public letter signed by many NYT contributors who are upset about their recent articles regarding Trans issues. They also coordinated with GLAAD which wrote a similar letter.

https://twitter.com/joshgondelman/status/1625872227794096128

Meanwhile the NYT stands by their reporting and is not happy to see journalists attacking their colleagues

https://twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1626022036220035073

https://twitter.com/maxwelltani/status/1626324277422133253

Thanks Frank, I was just about to post this.

GLAAD is insane. It's also interesting how corporate America is reaping the very same activism they have systemically coddled.

[Nintex]

swimming upstream against currents of bigotry and pseudoscience

 

[Potato]

So happy to see journalists and news outlets remember their ethics statements and push back against activism infecting their ranks. Hopefully this signals a wider push.

[Phoenix Dark]

but your quote also implies that all the guys were hanging out bragging and one-upping each other about how little they studied

you said the onlyfans girl is doing it because it's cool among her friends, how does the above quote not imply peer pressure not to study among friends?

This goes back to the emotional/violence thing. We say women are doing x while blatantly ignoring men doing the same thing in different ways/extremes. I've also known Himu long enough to remember our convos about black kids in classrooms and the way some (not all) don't take school seriously. The "being smart is acting white" crowd. How can you recognize that as a group dynamic and peer pressure, but not recognize it in the example you gave about boys not studying for tests?

[Tuckers Law]

So happy to see journalists and news outlets remember their ethics statements and push back against activism infecting their ranks. Hopefully this signals a wider push.

I'm skeptical it will, unfortunately.  These types have been labeling the NYT as damn near enemy #1 for a long while before this, so them taking a firm against being browbeaten by unhinged activists will likely just reaffirm that they are "welcoming the new nazis".

[Nintex]

MAGA Haberman strikes again!

[Phoenix Dark]

In terms of the trans stuff...while I'm not going to play referee for an identity/group I'm not apart of it does seem like many trans activists are veering into extremes (online) that make it hard for them to gain support. My general view is that most Americans don't think about trans issues, don't care about the culture war things republicans are obsessed over, and have never met a trans person. Their only real interaction with the topic comes in things like...well, you know, the Harry Potter freak out. And that shit makes trans activists look bad. Even worse when so much of it is being peddled on a social media site literally owned by a raging transphobe.

Yea I hate complaining about process, tone etc but still...this is just a dumb fight to pick, over a children's IP that is probably one of the 5-10 most beloved "things" in the world.

[benjipwns]

Meanwhile the NYT stands by their reporting and is not happy to see journalists attacking their colleagues

twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1626022036220035073

twitter.com/maxwelltani/status/1626324277422133253

It may not be politically correct but I'm going to say it, so much for free speech and a free press at the New York Times. Now they're demanding their employees support genocide or else. This is literally fascism, the New York Times just declared itself an enemy of the people and is about to learn that freedom of the press doesn't mean freedom from consequences. If you're an ally who cares about trans liberation you cannot read the New York Times. Anyone who reads the New York Times is someone who wants marginalized people dead. This puts Black @nytimes staff in danger.

[HaughtyFrank]

I'd honestly kind of like to see a proper argument between people who are pro and anti trans youth care. Like, an actual formal discussion with people citing their studies, trying to refute the points of the other one and so on. And I don't mean between the Rowling's and  Michael Hobbes of this world but people who work on this for a living. Wouldn't that be kind of nice? A discussion that doesn't instantly devolve into "you're killing people" or "eat shit"?

[benjipwns]

I'd honestly kind of like to see a proper argument between people who are pro and anti trans youth care. Like, an actual formal discussion with people citing their studies, trying to refute the points of the other one and so on. And I don't mean between the Rowling's and  Michael Hobbes of this world but people who work on this for a living. Wouldn't that be kind of nice? A discussion that doesn't instantly devolve into "you're killing people" or "eat shit"?

You don't debate fascists, you put them under the jail. Anyone who debates the pro-genocide side instantly becomes pro-genocide. You suggesting this makes me side-eye you.

[benjipwns]

https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1626240853219082241

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

I'd honestly kind of like to see a proper argument between people who are pro and anti trans youth care. Like, an actual formal discussion with people citing their studies, trying to refute the points of the other one and so on. And I don't mean between the Rowling's and  Michael Hobbes of this world but people who work on this for a living. Wouldn't that be kind of nice? A discussion that doesn't instantly devolve into "you're killing people" or "eat shit"?

Apparently Contrapoints was interviewed extensively for that upcoming with trials of JKR podcast, but they've already come out and pre-emptively disassociated themselves from it as 'legitimate' discourse, so I guess said or acknowledged some things they would rather not have.

e: philosophytube was asked to contribute to UK based dialogue but used the cop out "Acknowledging there is more than one side pretends I have no right to exist so I won't debate my existence".
So the BBC use Laura Kate Dale - an actual fucking idiot - as their rentaquote trans supporter

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1626240853219082241

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan

[HaughtyFrank]

I wonder if we reached the point where people realize that diversity without rhyme or reason feels like a very superficial effort

https://twitter.com/gormdegarth/status/1626595123646857220

...or the author just argues it because it's more ammo against Rowling. Guess we'll see

[Pissy F Benny]

Its almost like you can't win with some people

[Uncle]

I wonder if we reached the point where people realize that diversity without rhyme or reason feels like a very superficial effort

https://twitter.com/gormdegarth/status/1626595123646857220

...or the author just argues it because it's more ammo against Rowling. Guess we'll see

when you go so far left you find yourself agreeing with daniel vavra about why Kingdom Come Deliverance should be kept mostly pure and white

https://www.resetera.com/threads/separating-games-from-their-creators-kingdom-come-deliverance.17250/

[Propagandhim]

I wonder if we reached the point where people realize that diversity without rhyme or reason feels like a very superficial effort

https://twitter.com/gormdegarth/status/1626595123646857220

...or the author just argues it because it's more ammo against Rowling. Guess we'll see

These people are mentally ill.

[Nintex]

It's pretty realistic, Indians turn up where you least expect them just look at Rishi Sunak and Kamala Harris

[jorma]

going from "why aren't there enough indians in my harry potter" to "why are there so many indians in my harry potter" in a single page is pretty wild!

they are losing their mind while that terf bitch just sits there eating crackers (and tweets about irrelevant shit like the plight of cis women in Iran)

[Phoenix Dark]

Dunno guys, two Indians in an English book that came out in the 90s seems like...a good thing.

[HardcoreRetro]

I imagine they're gone by the time of the Harry Potter books because they were put on the Hogwart's Express to Auschkaban during the 2nd world war.

[benjipwns]

Not quite sure what this pastor is trying to say...

[NekoFever]

I wonder if we reached the point where people realize that diversity without rhyme or reason feels like a very superficial effort

https://twitter.com/gormdegarth/status/1626595123646857220

...or the author just argues it because it's more ammo against Rowling. Guess we'll see

I’m playing the game at the moment and it’s funny because you can see them trying really hard to be diverse and accommodating. From the start, the character creation gives you free rein to mix and match looks, voice and gender identity.

There are lots of Indian characters (as the review says), a prominent trans character, African exchange students, the flying instructor is Japanese, the caretaker is Korean. It’s almost diverse to the point of parody, like you’d pick the Scottish Highlands in the 19th century (or, indeed, the 21st) as this melting pot as a joke.

And it’s all for nought because the people who push for this stuff think it’s some kind of hate crime.

[HardcoreRetro]

Eh, I like some of them dunking on the trans characters voice. Not passing as a woman.

She's voiced by a transwoman.

[Tycoon Padre]

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/18/roald-dahl-books-rewritten-to-remove-language-deemed-offensive

Puffin has hired sensitivity readers to rewrite chunks of the author’s text to make sure the books “can continue to be enjoyed by all today”, resulting in extensive changes across Dahl’s work.

Edits have been made to descriptions of characters’ physical appearances. The word “fat” has been cut from every new edition of relevant books, while the word “ugly” has also been culled, the Daily Telegraph reported.

Augustus Gloop in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is now described as “enormous”. In The Twits, Mrs Twit is no longer “ugly and beastly” but just “beastly”.

Hundreds of changes were made to the original text – and some passages not written by Dahl have been added. But the Roald Dahl Story Company said “it’s not unusual to review the language” during a new print run and any changes were “small and carefully considered”.

In The Witches, a paragraph explaining that witches are bald beneath their wigs ends with the new line: “There are plenty of other reasons why women might wear wigs and there is certainly nothing wrong with that.”

Hate to give clicks to culture war nonsense but that is just absolute vandalism

[HaughtyFrank]

You'd think it would at least be about racism (wasn't he an antisemite?) and not editing cookie cutter shit

[BIONIC]

In The Witches, a paragraph explaining that witches are bald beneath their wigs ends with the new line: “There are plenty of other reasons why women might wear wigs and there is certainly nothing wrong with that.”

 

[NekoFever]

You'd think it would at least be about racism (wasn't he an antisemite?) and not editing cookie cutter shit

He was indeed a raging antisemite (actual quote: “Even a stinker like Hitler didn't just pick on them for no reason”) but it doesn’t seem to have bled into his books.

There’s an excellent documentary from a year or so back by the Jewish comedian David Baddiel that goes into it.

[Nintex]

[Uncle]

hoenouns 

[Potato]

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/18/roald-dahl-books-rewritten-to-remove-language-deemed-offensive

Puffin has hired sensitivity readers to rewrite chunks of the author’s text to make sure the books “can continue to be enjoyed by all today”, resulting in extensive changes across Dahl’s work.

Edits have been made to descriptions of characters’ physical appearances. The word “fat” has been cut from every new edition of relevant books, while the word “ugly” has also been culled, the Daily Telegraph reported.

Augustus Gloop in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is now described as “enormous”. In The Twits, Mrs Twit is no longer “ugly and beastly” but just “beastly”.

Hundreds of changes were made to the original text – and some passages not written by Dahl have been added. But the Roald Dahl Story Company said “it’s not unusual to review the language” during a new print run and any changes were “small and carefully considered”.

In The Witches, a paragraph explaining that witches are bald beneath their wigs ends with the new line: “There are plenty of other reasons why women might wear wigs and there is certainly nothing wrong with that.”

Hate to give clicks to culture war nonsense but that is just absolute vandalism

Why is it whenever one of these shitty lefty publications goes full culture war, they always disable comments?

This article, every Kotaku article about Hogwarts Legacy, they all disable comments as if they can't even trust their readership to have the "correct" opinion. Slaps of the need for orthodoxy and conformity, which is ironic for so-called progressive leaning publications.

[benjipwns]

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/18/roald-dahl-books-rewritten-to-remove-language-deemed-offensive

Edits have been made to descriptions of characters’ physical appearances. The word “fat” has been cut from every new edition of relevant books ... Augustus Gloop in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is now described as “enormous”.

[Potato]

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/18/roald-dahl-books-rewritten-to-remove-language-deemed-offensive

Edits have been made to descriptions of characters’ physical appearances. The word “fat” has been cut from every new edition of relevant books ... Augustus Gloop in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is now described as “enormous”.

Can't wait to try the new "Enormous-free yoghurt"!

[Nintex]

[benjipwns]

(Image removed from quote.)

Saw a headline of a similar complaint from Till actors about the misogynoir of the Oscars for not giving them enough nominations. Like maybe you just suck as a diversity analyst/actor despite being Black women?

[benjipwns]

That classic satirical wit of The Daily Show is back baybee! (Check out Kase's cool ironic smirk in her profile picture.)

[benjipwns]

More of the Dahl story changes:

[Uncle]

Hundreds of changes were made to the original text – and some passages not written by Dahl have been added. But the Roald Dahl Story Company said “it’s not unusual to review the language” during a new print run and any changes were “small and carefully considered”.

these are a shitload of major changes that entirely change the intent of the text

why the fuck should matilda read an entirely different book? maybe kipling suits her adventurous spirit better?

you could argue that if she enjoys "masculine" adventures that does more to break down the imaginary gender binary than forcing her to read books written by women

[benjipwns]

why the fuck should matilda read an entirely different book? maybe kipling suits her adventurous spirit better?

you could argue that if she enjoys "masculine" adventures that does more to break down the imaginary gender binary than forcing her to read books written by women

I don't think that is why Kipling was dropped, though it may be why Austen was picked as the replacement. (I'd prefer to think it was for her being part of the Third Street Saints.) Think less gender reasons, more Nepenthe reasons.

[Nintex]

At least people have started to wake up and notice the censorship. A lot has been changed unnoticed by localization and other methods in recent years.
Just 'cutting a scene', 'rewriting a character' or 'modernizing dialogue'.

I just read that the "I see that the President equipped his daughter with ballistics too!" line is cut from the Resident Evil 4 remake and Luis demeanor has changed a great deal.
Despite the victory in the battle for Hogwarts it shows that the war against censorship is not yet won.

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

why the fuck should matilda read an entirely different book? maybe kipling suits her adventurous spirit better?

you could argue that if she enjoys "masculine" adventures that does more to break down the imaginary gender binary than forcing her to read books written by women

I don't think that is why Kipling was dropped, though it may be why Austen was picked as the replacement. (I'd prefer to think it was for her being part of the Third Street Saints.) Think less gender reasons, more Nepenthe reasons.

Yeah, he's been 'controversial' for a long time being very much a product of Victorian British Empire (and wrote the ostensibly pro-colonisation poem White Mans Burden, which you don't have to read much beyond the surface level to see is actually a warning (to America) against getting into the empire building game as whatever objective benefits your empire might bring, you'll only be hated for it)

[D3RANG3D]

 

[benjipwns]

Another major news article on this.

‘Brainwashing a Generation’: British Schools Combat Andrew Tate’s Views

Alarmed by an online personality’s popularity among their students, educators are mobilizing to combat the sexism he promotes.

As the seventh graders settled into a lecture hall at a school near London, the topic at hand was not human rights, historical events or different religions. “Andrew Tate,” a teacher said, pointing to a photograph projected on the wall. “What do you know about this man?”

Some boys giggled at the mention of Mr. Tate, a social media influencer famed for his misogynist comments. One boy said he liked him because “he has a strong masculinity,” fast cars and a fit body. The teacher projected some of Mr. Tate’s claims, among them that women who are raped should bear some responsibility. A few boys agreed.

“He is wrong,” said the teacher, Jake White. “That is a load of rubbish.”

Believing that schools are a microcosm of society — and a preview of its future — educators said it was crucial to target Mr. Tate’s influence early. Since last fall, principals have sent letters to parents warning of his reach, and Britain’s education secretary has said that influencers like Mr. Tate could reverse the progress made in countering sexism.

British schools were already reckoning with what officials have recognized as an endemic culture of sexual harassment of students, leaving both young girls and boys feeling victimized and often unsure of the rules of interaction. Now, educators unexpectedly find themselves spending class time discussing Mr. Tate rather than their lessons.

“I am sad that I have taken up important curriculum time to talk about Andrew Tate,” said Chloe Stanton, an English teacher in East London. “But women have to fight enough in society without this type of attitude to deal with.”

In recent months, Ms. Stanton said, students have started bringing up Mr. Tate in class. They extol his wealth and fast cars. And for the first time in her 20 years of teaching, her 11- to 16-year-old students have challenged her for working and asked if she had her husband’s permission.

She has heard students talk casually about rape. “As the only woman in the room, I felt uncomfortable,” she said. Once, a student asked her if she was going to cry. At home, even her own three sons seemed to defend Mr. Tate.

“He is brainwashing a generation of boys, and it’s very frightening,” she said. “They seem to think he is right. He’s right because he’s rich.”

At a school in Belfast, Northern Ireland, a line popularized by Mr. Tate to deride people who do not own luxury cars — “What color is your Bugatti?” — became widespread, said Charlotte Carson, a history and civics teacher.

At first, educators tried to avoid taking on Mr. Tate’s views directly, for fear of giving them a platform. But once they grasped his popularity, they decided that countering his influence took priority.

Though there are no official figures, teachers and administrators around the country said that school-based efforts had become quite common.

The school where Mr. White teaches, the Epping St. John’s Church of England School, northeast of London, organized a weeklong series of assemblies in response to Mr. Tate’s arrest and his obvious hold on young people. Three male teachers led the sessions (“The boys look up to these guys,” said Mike Yerosimou, the principal), and although misogyny was not their field of expertise, they did research and prepared along with some female colleagues.

They asked students to discuss some of Mr. Tate’s quotes with a partner. One boy, who said he watched more than 10 of Mr. Tate’s videos every day

Teachers believe it is their job in part to help students understand that despite Mr. Tate’s popularity, his views are outside the mainstream.

“We have to help educate them because the world has changed,” said Deana Puccio, a founder of the RAP Project. “The great thing about Andrew Tate is that we’re finally having the conversation.”

“In this society, material success conveys a sort of being right,” said Michael Conroy, the founder of Men At Work, a group that trains teachers and youth workers to support young men. “And he is combining that with very dangerous messages.”

No? Pretty sure that's an Aussie band?

[benjipwns]

https://twitter.com/RichardGrenell/status/1626954758165774338

https://twitter.com/Odyne_LaFee/status/1626592618271617026
https://twitter.com/Odyne_LaFee/status/1626593901418262529

[team filler]

https://twitter.com/ABrokenVeteran/status/1626957025216282624


 

[Nintex]

And none of the Democrats showed up for the memorial service of the beautiful Diamond

[benjipwns]

And you guys all made fun of that ResetERA.com post about the sign of someone alt-right is they're reading books:

The flagship Prevent scheme, recently the subject of a scathing audit, singled out comedies Yes Minister and The Thick Of It, the 1955 epic war film The Dam Busters, and even The Complete Works Of William Shakespeare as possible red flags of extremism.

It said the works of fiction were ‘key texts’ for ‘white nationalists/supremacists’.

A report by Prevent’s Research Information and Communications Unit (RICU) described how far-Right extremists promoted ‘reading lists’ on online bulletin boards.

[zomgee]

its getting to the point that i can no longer read irony or sarcasm into any of this and generally come out of this thread more confused than when i entered

[HaughtyFrank]

People fighting for AI alliance

https://twitter.com/david_j_roth/status/1627712564682424359

[Uncle]

AI can't even be prevented from generating illegal content, much less trained to support one side or the other, it is always trivial to trick it into saying whatever you like

any attempts at aligning it one way or the other result in making it globally less useful, because for example there's no way to distinguish an actual call for violence from a story about a villain who calls for violence (and loses)

the only way to filter it is pre- and post-processes on the input/output (i.e. user can never type slurs) and even THAT is defeatable by just speaking in code and forcing the AI to do the same (via ASCII etc.) or using word replacements

currently, it will always tell the user what they want to hear, ask it a negative leaning question and it will tend to reinforce that sentiment and vice versa

[Cauliflower Of Love]

found the bore a "i"

[Nintex]

And you guys all made fun of that ResetERA.com post about the sign of someone alt-right is they're reading books:

The flagship Prevent scheme, recently the subject of a scathing audit, singled out comedies Yes Minister and The Thick Of It, the 1955 epic war film The Dam Busters, and even The Complete Works Of William Shakespeare as possible red flags of extremism.

It said the works of fiction were ‘key texts’ for ‘white nationalists/supremacists’.

A report by Prevent’s Research Information and Communications Unit (RICU) described how far-Right extremists promoted ‘reading lists’ on online bulletin boards.

I'm a big fan of House of Cards and Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy and I probably fit into the profile that most government cucks addicted to spreadsheets would consider "far right" so it checks out.

They've missed a few though, like Monty Python and Blackadder.

[HaughtyFrank]

I always knew that those theater kids putting on Shakespeare plays were right-wing Nazis

[Potato]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-20/lgbtqia-seniors-sex-relationships-theatre-sydney-worldpride/101990598

As well as the cast, it's an all-queer crew who are well-practised at creating a safe space for participants to open up.

In their first week, the group went to Taylor Square in Darlinghurst and were asked if they would have sex with passers-by; yes or no?

Imagine what would happen if an all straight cast of a stage show was taken to a public space to play FMK (minus the MK)?

[Potato]

[Nintex]

https://twitter.com/Faytuks/status/1627963406463471617

[Uncle]

this would be true if shitty things weren't actually happening

I don't necessarily care if one weirdo tweets that roald dahl's books need to be updated for a modern audience, I care when it actually happens

[Himu]

I wonder if we reached the point where people realize that diversity without rhyme or reason feels like a very superficial effort

https://twitter.com/gormdegarth/status/1626595123646857220

...or the author just argues it because it's more ammo against Rowling. Guess we'll see

I’m playing the game at the moment and it’s funny because you can see them trying really hard to be diverse and accommodating. From the start, the character creation gives you free rein to mix and match looks, voice and gender identity.

There are lots of Indian characters (as the review says), a prominent trans character, African exchange students, the flying instructor is Japanese, the caretaker is Korean. It’s almost diverse to the point of parody, like you’d pick the Scottish Highlands in the 19th century (or, indeed, the 21st) as this melting pot as a joke.

And it’s all for nought because the people who push for this stuff think it’s some kind of hate crime.

It's really interesting. The game seems to have the 90's style of diverse which wasn't tacked on and it's still isn't enough  Likely because 90's diversity didn't hinge itself on the identity of the characters race or sex or sexuality but their character. To identitarians this is bad because they prioritize identity above all else.

[Himu]

At least people have started to wake up and notice the censorship. A lot has been changed unnoticed by localization and other methods in recent years.
Just 'cutting a scene', 'rewriting a character' or 'modernizing dialogue'.

I just read that the "I see that the President equipped his daughter with ballistics too!" line is cut from the Resident Evil 4 remake and Luis demeanor has changed a great deal.
Despite the victory in the battle for Hogwarts it shows that the war against censorship is not yet won.

This isn't censorship. I told you weeks ago given the tone of RE2make they'd likely change the tone of RE4make which means making it more serious, more horror and less cheesy lines. The ballistics line is one of those cheesy lines.

(Image removed from quote.)

That classic satirical wit of The Daily Show is back baybee! (Check out Kase's cool ironic smirk in her profile picture.)

It's her show but I have to say Sarah Silverman's brand of humor is precisely what would get me to watch Daily Show daily again if she went after both parties in the way Stewart used to..

[Nintex]

https://twitter.com/TIME/status/1628126915818037248

If you don't think Kamala Harris is doing a great job as Vice President than you are a national security threat.