USA Politics Thread |OT| Cleaning up the town

[Uncle]

Every year there's a push from a certain group of people (racists) who want to ban books like To Kill A Mockingbird

well, no, it's because to kill a mockingbird is itself racist actually

https://crosscut.com/news/2022/01/kill-mockingbird-hot-seat-wa-school-district

The teachers’ objections to the book included criticism that Black characters are not fully realized and that the book romanticizes the idea of a “white savior.”

The teachers also cited concerns that characters in the book frequently use the N-word while no character explains that the slur is derogatory, and that the word and the portrayal of Black characters cause harm to students of color.

this article does not mention it but another point I've seen raised is that harper lee as a white person in the 50s was ill-equipped to accurately represent the struggles, behaviors and culture of the Black experience at that time or indeed any time

[Uncle]

and parents and kids can still track down these books if they really want to

If a child is gay, and their parent is a religious fanatic, how exactly do they track down the books?

Part of the reason of having them in school a library is to ensure that everyone has equal access to the materials.

Same with other sensitive subjects like eating disorders, self-harm etc.

Librarians are curated by educated professionals with a masters degree. They certainly know more about books than Johnny Taliban or Debby Klan.

Providing government resources for children to escape a cult is a good thing, actually.

and if a child is gay and the librarian is a fundie christian and decided to stock the library full of books that proclaim they're going through a phase and should be ashamed, do you advocate for removing those books from the library?

"Librarians are curated by educated professionals with a masters degree.'

Fundie Christians have at most a GED.

ah I see, there is no circumstance in which an objectionable book could ever be added to a school library and therefore no basis for ever requesting a specific book be removed

[james]

Every year there's a push from a certain group of people (racists) who want to ban books like To Kill A Mockingbird

well, no, it's because to kill a mockingbird is itself racist actually

https://crosscut.com/news/2022/01/kill-mockingbird-hot-seat-wa-school-district

The teachers’ objections to the book included criticism that Black characters are not fully realized and that the book romanticizes the idea of a “white savior.”

The teachers also cited concerns that characters in the book frequently use the N-word while no character explains that the slur is derogatory, and that the word and the portrayal of Black characters cause harm to students of color.

this article does not mention it but another point I've seen raised is that harper lee as a white person in the 50s was ill-equipped to accurately represent the struggles, behaviors and culture of the Black experience at that time or indeed any time

Did you miss the rest of his post?

And while I understand for instance the books I had to read in HS English - 1984, Lord Of The Flies, etc - are likely no longer heavily used in curriculums today I would expect and want those books to still be readily available in a school or local library. Because they're important literary works and hold some value in being read by young children whose minds/thoughts are in a state of development

Thats exactly what your article says happened:

The book will not be not banned, however, and teachers may still choose to assign the book in their classrooms.

[james]

ah I see, there is no circumstance in which an objectionable book could ever be added to a school library and therefore no basis for ever requesting a specific book be removed

I dont see the issue with one or two fundie books in the library. Provides a good opportunity to analyze and criticize the text. Point out logical fallacies and the such.

And its important to note this whole discussion is about books that simply feature certain themes or topics that made idiot men with tiny IQs uncomfortable.

No one is stocking books on effective ways to commit suicide or how to build a pipe bomb.

[Uncle]

Every year there's a push from a certain group of people (racists) who want to ban books like To Kill A Mockingbird

well, no, it's because to kill a mockingbird is itself racist actually

https://crosscut.com/news/2022/01/kill-mockingbird-hot-seat-wa-school-district

The teachers’ objections to the book included criticism that Black characters are not fully realized and that the book romanticizes the idea of a “white savior.”

The teachers also cited concerns that characters in the book frequently use the N-word while no character explains that the slur is derogatory, and that the word and the portrayal of Black characters cause harm to students of color.

this article does not mention it but another point I've seen raised is that harper lee as a white person in the 50s was ill-equipped to accurately represent the struggles, behaviors and culture of the Black experience at that time or indeed any time

Did you miss the rest of his post?

And while I understand for instance the books I had to read in HS English - 1984, Lord Of The Flies, etc - are likely no longer heavily used in curriculums today I would expect and want those books to still be readily available in a school or local library. Because they're important literary works and hold some value in being read by young children whose minds/thoughts are in a state of development

Thats exactly what your article says happened:

The book will not be not banned, however, and teachers may still choose to assign the book in their classrooms.

right, he said there's a push, not that they're successful

are we questioning their motivation, or whether it actually happens? a lot of these conservative driven "bannings" also fail in similar ways, sometimes removed from reading lists but not the library, sometimes they're just told to fuck off

here's a failed attempt in florida

[Uncle]

No one is stocking books on effective ways to commit suicide or how to build a pipe bomb.

why are those books banned from the library? no books should be banned, right?

[james]

are we questioning their motivation, or whether it actually happens? a lot of these conservative driven "bannings" also fail in similar ways, sometimes removed from reading lists but not the library, sometimes they're just told to fuck off

In this specific example, I provided the 7 books that were removed and blocked.

The protest was that they didnt go far enough.

why are those books banned from the library? no books should be banned, right?

Come on, no need to act dumb.

Free speech and defamation laws can co-exist, as can laws that prohibit assault.

(Assault is just a verbal threat, battery is the act)

These protests are about banning books that arent dangerous, they just go against the magic book filled with pedophile stories.

[Uncle]

When I say "banned" I mean moved from school curriculums and libraries forever. This is objectively wrong.

this is a bit hyperbolic, the school systems aren't writing into their constitutions "this book is banned forever no backsies, sorry kensington elementary of 2054, you're fucked"

this is not a defense of removing them NOW, which is still not a net positive, but it is again intended to highlight the difference between nazi government-sponsored banning, burning, widespread censorship, and taking a book off a shelf in one school to quiet some whiny ass parent and then putting the book back next year when other parents demand that it be reinstated

that's just the social process

I'm not necessarily in favor of those books being removed from a school, but I also acknowledge that there may come a time in the future when there might be a compelling case to remove any given book for entirely different reasons; books praising god-king trump, or painting russia's war as just, or defining marriage as only between a man and a woman

people can question anything

why are those books banned from the library? no books should be banned, right?

Come on, no need to act dumb.

Free speech and defamation laws can co-exist, as can laws that prohibit assault.

(Assault is just a verbal threat, battery is the act)

These protests are about banning books that arent dangerous, they just go against the magic book filled with pedophile stories.

this is literally the basis of my post on this, though

if you accept that there are good reasons that some books ought to be excluded from school libraries, THEN you can start to dither over the details of whether this particular one is justified or not

bash conservatives and their shit reasoning all you like, just don't pretend that there's no reason literally any book's inclusion should ever be questioned

[james]

this is literally the basis of my post on this, though

if you accept that there are good reasons that some books ought to be excluded from school libraries, THEN you can start to dither over the details of whether this particular one is justified or not

bash conservatives and their shit reasoning all you like, just don't pretend that there's no reason literally any book's inclusion should ever be questioned

All they have to do is simply apply the test determined by the USSC - the Miller Test.

That being said, I propose an updated version, the Himu test.

Basically, whatever Himu thinks, do they exact opposite. 

[Phoenix Dark]

Every year there's a push from a certain group of people (racists) who want to ban books like To Kill A Mockingbird

well, no, it's because to kill a mockingbird is itself racist actually

https://crosscut.com/news/2022/01/kill-mockingbird-hot-seat-wa-school-district

The teachers’ objections to the book included criticism that Black characters are not fully realized and that the book romanticizes the idea of a “white savior.”

The teachers also cited concerns that characters in the book frequently use the N-word while no character explains that the slur is derogatory, and that the word and the portrayal of Black characters cause harm to students of color.

this article does not mention it but another point I've seen raised is that harper lee as a white person in the 50s was ill-equipped to accurately represent the struggles, behaviors and culture of the Black experience at that time or indeed any time

The vast majority of people who have attempted to ban or remove To Kill A Mockingbird from schools since the 1960s are racist parents, often in the south, upset about the topics described in the book (you know, racism). Who claim the book is obscene due to the n-word, among other things, in order to put on what they believe to be a more reasonable/less racist-looking facade. A couple delusional leftist teachers in Seattle doesn't change that. I will definitely say I have noticed that argument appearing on the left though, often from white writers who seemingly don't understand what a "white savior" character is. I see no argument for Atticus being that, given how flawed of a character he'd depicted as in the book (vs the movie).

The white liberal guilt of these types of people, and the brain rot it generates, is pretty wild.

[Himu]

this is literally the basis of my post on this, though

if you accept that there are good reasons that some books ought to be excluded from school libraries, THEN you can start to dither over the details of whether this particular one is justified or not

bash conservatives and their shit reasoning all you like, just don't pretend that there's no reason literally any book's inclusion should ever be questioned

All they have to do is simply apply the test determined by the USSC - the Miller Test.

That being said, I propose an updated version, the Himu test.

Basically, whatever Himu thinks, do they exact opposite.

Ah, so they're going to take away art books and stuff, huh. SAD. I love that you're so obsessed with me. Now thanks to you they're going to get rid of band class, art class, and English literature.

[Himu]

Every year there's a push from a certain group of people (racists) who want to ban books like To Kill A Mockingbird

well, no, it's because to kill a mockingbird is itself racist actually

https://crosscut.com/news/2022/01/kill-mockingbird-hot-seat-wa-school-district

The teachers’ objections to the book included criticism that Black characters are not fully realized and that the book romanticizes the idea of a “white savior.”

The teachers also cited concerns that characters in the book frequently use the N-word while no character explains that the slur is derogatory, and that the word and the portrayal of Black characters cause harm to students of color.

this article does not mention it but another point I've seen raised is that harper lee as a white person in the 50s was ill-equipped to accurately represent the struggles, behaviors and culture of the Black experience at that time or indeed any time

The vast majority of people who have attempted to ban or remove To Kill A Mockingbird from schools since the 1960s are racist parents, often in the south, upset about the topics described in the book (you know, racism). Who claim the book is obscene due to the n-word, among other things, in order to put on what they believe to be a more reasonable/less racist-looking facade. A couple delusional leftist teachers in Seattle doesn't change that. I will definitely say I have noticed that argument appearing on the left though, often from white writers who seemingly don't understand what a "white savior" character is. I see no argument for Atticus being that, given how flawed of a character he'd depicted as in the book (vs the movie).

The white liberal guilt of these types of people, and the brain rot it generates, is pretty wild.

Who does Atticus even save?? He literally loses the case and his defendant is shot to death. What are leftist crackers even smoking? I told you leftism is a disease, PD. I'm glad to see you acknowledge it.

[james]

this is literally the basis of my post on this, though

if you accept that there are good reasons that some books ought to be excluded from school libraries, THEN you can start to dither over the details of whether this particular one is justified or not

bash conservatives and their shit reasoning all you like, just don't pretend that there's no reason literally any book's inclusion should ever be questioned

All they have to do is simply apply the test determined by the USSC - the Miller Test.

That being said, I propose an updated version, the Himu test.

Basically, whatever Himu thinks, do they exact opposite.

I love that you're so obsessed with me.

I think youre fascinating.

Pretty much everyone at the bore is an educated, successful professional in their 30s-40s. We may not agree on everything, but we have the basic building blocks needed to have a conversation based around logic and reason.

You arent like that. Youre the 30% of the population that is low-IQ and incredibly easy to manipulate, confuse, and recruit. Its a fantastic insight into how folks like Trump or Chavez or Bolsonaro develop cults and can within the span of a single sentence proudly proclaim two completely contradictory viewpoints while actually genuinely thinking you are smart and logical and right.

Its just remarkable.

The problem with political consultants and operatives, especially on the left, is that they dont have access to people like you to prod and poke and observe. Youre a goldmine.

When you post, I feel the same level of excitement Dr. Oz must feel when he sees a fresh litter of puppies.

[Nintex]

https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1580288198357712896



https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1580287068575797251
Thank god the patriot points are safe 

[Phoenix Dark]

Every year there's a push from a certain group of people (racists) who want to ban books like To Kill A Mockingbird

well, no, it's because to kill a mockingbird is itself racist actually

https://crosscut.com/news/2022/01/kill-mockingbird-hot-seat-wa-school-district

The teachers’ objections to the book included criticism that Black characters are not fully realized and that the book romanticizes the idea of a “white savior.”

The teachers also cited concerns that characters in the book frequently use the N-word while no character explains that the slur is derogatory, and that the word and the portrayal of Black characters cause harm to students of color.

this article does not mention it but another point I've seen raised is that harper lee as a white person in the 50s was ill-equipped to accurately represent the struggles, behaviors and culture of the Black experience at that time or indeed any time

The vast majority of people who have attempted to ban or remove To Kill A Mockingbird from schools since the 1960s are racist parents, often in the south, upset about the topics described in the book (you know, racism). Who claim the book is obscene due to the n-word, among other things, in order to put on what they believe to be a more reasonable/less racist-looking facade. A couple delusional leftist teachers in Seattle doesn't change that. I will definitely say I have noticed that argument appearing on the left though, often from white writers who seemingly don't understand what a "white savior" character is. I see no argument for Atticus being that, given how flawed of a character he'd depicted as in the book (vs the movie).

The white liberal guilt of these types of people, and the brain rot it generates, is pretty wild.

Who does Atticus even save?? He literally loses the case and his defendant is shot to death. What are leftist crackers even smoking? I told you leftism is a disease, PD. I'm glad to see you acknowledge it.

Most of the leftist conversations I've seen don't recommend banning but I've seen many that say it shouldn't be taught in schools because "white savior" or "a white's perspective doesn't matter." Brain worms and frankly not much better than wanting to ban a book due to being racist.

To be perfectly honest...they've targeted a variety of classic lit books. I've seen leftists argue Lord Of The Flies is problematic because it lacks diversity, and that a book centered on white male perspectives is worthless. Yes I agree with you, this is parody level stupidity. I said earlier I'm fine with that book not being taught, given that some may view it as dated, but that it belongs in school libraries. To exile it based on extremist views on representation is insane.

There's probably somebody out there pitching a Lord Of The Flies remake with a diverse cast. Not recognizing that them all being (white) boys, and the type of British school they came from, are central to what the book is saying.

[Himu]

I'm not actually low IQ in any way. I won't reveal what it is and I guarantee I have more skills and talents than you. My binary thinking is really helpful in learning things. You're a professional, but you're fucking boring. You seem to have zero life experience. The equivalent of a spare brick laid by a completed house. PD hasn't lived outside of his home state. Meanwhile, I moved to NYC, got New York Times contacts, gained high level skills in a competitive in two years time, was mentored by W. Eugene Smith winners, caught the eye of NYU professors in which I was given one on one counseling personally purely due to talent and hard work. Having binary thinking is great. What's good? What's bad? What should I discard? That constant measure of self criticism is precisely how I get good at things and precisely why I am better than you. You know that's the case because your fragile ego attacks me so often even when I'm not even the subject. I find it pretty pathetic.

You don't have the ability to self obsess about something soooo much, that you wake up at 6 am and do it till 2 am. You don't have that ability to drill down, dig deep, and and get noticed. You are weak and what you can't stand is that despite all of your "success" you are hollow.
 
We are not the same and you know I am better than you. I know what bothers you. It bothers you that you will die, damp in the darkness of your own mind, not really having lived nor experienced life. An oxygen tank strapped to the side as your body is dressed in tape. All you hear are beeps and the chatter of nurses talking about what men they're currently dating.  so your skin itches, fearing what comes next. You want to scream, but you can only whisper. You don't believe in God but you wish you did so very badly so that you could curse his name in your blindness, in your numbness. All you feel is the cold shiver of your life's final act and rather than a curse to your Creator you let out a gasp, eyes frozen from the tears in your own Godlessness. You admit to being suicidal in another thread. You will embrace the emptiness of your life with your hearts last jump, and then nothing. A void.

[james]

Most of the leftist conversations I've seen don't recommend banning but I've seen many that say it shouldn't be taught in schools because "white savior" or "a white's perspective doesn't matter." Brain worms and frankly not much better than wanting to ban a book due to being racist.

To be perfectly honest...they've targeted a variety of classic lit books. I've seen leftists argue Lord Of The Flies is problematic because it lacks diversity, and that a book centered on white male perspectives is worthless. Yes I agree with you, this is parody level stupidity. I said earlier I'm fine with that book not being taught, given that some may view it as dated, but that it belongs in school libraries. To exile it based on extremist views on representation is insane.

There's probably somebody out there pitching a Lord Of The Flies remake with a diverse cast. Not recognizing that them all being (white) boys, and the type of British school they came from, are central to what the book is saying.

I think thats a simplification. What Ive heard is that a lot of the classics aren't exactly great literature, but theyre taught due to inertia + a small pool. Aka, books written by white American or British men, and new generations teaching what they were taught.

AKA, while there is certainly value to teaching Shakespeare, because of how influential the storylines are, you dont need a course that is ONLY Shakespeare.

Because you can only teach so many books in a year, its worth looking at other cultures and languages to see if there are better books to teach that hit on similar points of discussion but are written better or are better balanced. 

[Nintex]

https://twitter.com/Forbes/status/1580024326556110848

2 years in and Biden is basically at war with everybody.

With compliments from the Jabrack Obamur crackhead foreign policy team 

[james]

I'm not actually low IQ in any way. I won't reveal what it is and I guarantee I have more skills and talents than you. My binary thinking is really helpful in learning things.

That constant measure of self criticism is precisely how I get good at things and precisely why I am better than you.

This is the gold I am referring to. The inflated sense of self importance and superiority that drives the Karen movement. Zero self reflection.

it's incredible.

MORE MORE MORE.

You don't have the ability to self obsess about something soooo much, that you wake up at 6 am and do it till 2 am.

My Minecraft world disagrees with this libel. You better step back with these accusations before you get Alex Jonesed

We are not the same and you know I am better than you. I know what bothers you. It bothers you that you will die, damp in the darkness of your own mind, not really having lived nor experienced life. An oxygen tank strapped to the side as your body is dressed in tape. All you hear are beeps and the chatter of nurses talking about what men they're currently dating. You want to scream, but you can only whisper and in your final words you let out a gasp. You have no God, you admit to being suicidal in another thread. You will embrace the emptiness of your life, your hearts last jump, and then nothing. A void.

Whats your livejournal this isnt bad at all

[BIONIC]

I think we should stop this infighting for a second and celebrate the fact that you can now get DOUBLE MOTHERFUCKIN PATRIOT POINTS at the info wars store 

[Nintex]

Patriot Point Inflation 

[Himu]

https://twitter.com/business/status/1580285678747004932

 

Every year there's a push from a certain group of people (racists) who want to ban books like To Kill A Mockingbird

well, no, it's because to kill a mockingbird is itself racist actually

https://crosscut.com/news/2022/01/kill-mockingbird-hot-seat-wa-school-district

The teachers’ objections to the book included criticism that Black characters are not fully realized and that the book romanticizes the idea of a “white savior.”

The teachers also cited concerns that characters in the book frequently use the N-word while no character explains that the slur is derogatory, and that the word and the portrayal of Black characters cause harm to students of color.

this article does not mention it but another point I've seen raised is that harper lee as a white person in the 50s was ill-equipped to accurately represent the struggles, behaviors and culture of the Black experience at that time or indeed any time

The vast majority of people who have attempted to ban or remove To Kill A Mockingbird from schools since the 1960s are racist parents, often in the south, upset about the topics described in the book (you know, racism). Who claim the book is obscene due to the n-word, among other things, in order to put on what they believe to be a more reasonable/less racist-looking facade. A couple delusional leftist teachers in Seattle doesn't change that. I will definitely say I have noticed that argument appearing on the left though, often from white writers who seemingly don't understand what a "white savior" character is. I see no argument for Atticus being that, given how flawed of a character he'd depicted as in the book (vs the movie).

The white liberal guilt of these types of people, and the brain rot it generates, is pretty wild.

Who does Atticus even save?? He literally loses the case and his defendant is shot to death. What are leftist crackers even smoking? I told you leftism is a disease, PD. I'm glad to see you acknowledge it.

Most of the leftist conversations I've seen don't recommend banning but I've seen many that say it shouldn't be taught in schools because "white savior" or "a white's perspective doesn't matter." Brain worms and frankly not much better than wanting to ban a book due to being racist.

To be perfectly honest...they've targeted a variety of classic lit books. I've seen leftists argue Lord Of The Flies is problematic because it lacks diversity, and that a book centered on white male perspectives is worthless. Yes I agree with you, this is parody level stupidity. I said earlier I'm fine with that book not being taught, given that some may view it as dated, but that it belongs in school libraries. To exile it based on extremist views on representation is insane.

There's probably somebody out there pitching a Lord Of The Flies remake with a diverse cast. Not recognizing that them all being (white) boys, and the type of British school they came from, are central to what the book is saying.

They're so racist against white people and so unappreciative of prior cultural milestones because "white people". It's pretty crazy anyone could find Lord of the Flies problematic.

By the same token, some conservatives take it to the opposite degree. While we speak of book bannings, what's the point of banning Persepolis, a story of a young woman being raised during the Iran Revolution?

[james]

Patriot Point Inflation 

I warned you to stock up last month Nintex.

If you haven't bought your Glen Beck post collapse survival kit you still have time.

Use code JamesFund at checkout for a free ounce of gold and 2 premium meal kits

 

[benjipwns]

Having men compete with women in sports, the entire trans thing, especially when forced on kids, trans women forcing themselves into women's spaces - even lesbian spaces

Then there's the slippery slope that has happened. Ever since the legalization of gay marriage society has become increasingly sexual in public from social media, to porn being inescapable, to kids being hooted and hollered over by a bunch adult men as they shake their ass. It is a complete dopaminization of civilization, much like with Rome, and gives credence that gays sex is solely about lust and not love, and that mentality, as it gain social acceptance through osmosis, is cancerous to society which ultimately doesn't mean anything to LGBTQ because they mostly cannot reproduce.

Society, as a whole, is much better with them in the closet. Ever since their full integration into society it has become a warped society. It is unnatural and wrong.

No other group gets this kind of social power for such a small minority. There truly is a gay agenda. I supported gay people my entire life. I capable of saying I was wrong about them.

LGBTQ destroys society. We should learn from Rome's example. Live your life. Doesn't mean your lifestyle should gain acceptance.

You're conflating a lot of things into a "gay agenda", ascribing motives to everyone in a large and diverse group even while using an example of in-group dispute, then ascribing everything potentially bad to a position now held by 75+% of the population.

You want us to learn from Rome but we could probably ascribe some of their issues to the spread of monotheistic religions rather than the spread of too many individual liberties.

[Himu]

Candace is making a documentary on the queer grifters. I don't support everything she says much less does (the white lives matter shirt was bad and tacky) but I'm excited for this. Hopefully it's as good as What Is A Woman?

Having men compete with women in sports, the entire trans thing, especially when forced on kids, trans women forcing themselves into women's spaces - even lesbian spaces

Then there's the slippery slope that has happened. Ever since the legalization of gay marriage society has become increasingly sexual in public from social media, to porn being inescapable, to kids being hooted and hollered over by a bunch adult men as they shake their ass. It is a complete dopaminization of civilization, much like with Rome, and gives credence that gays sex is solely about lust and not love, and that mentality, as it gain social acceptance through osmosis, is cancerous to society which ultimately doesn't mean anything to LGBTQ because they mostly cannot reproduce.

Society, as a whole, is much better with them in the closet. Ever since their full integration into society it has become a warped society. It is unnatural and wrong.

No other group gets this kind of social power for such a small minority. There truly is a gay agenda. I supported gay people my entire life. I capable of saying I was wrong about them.

LGBTQ destroys society. We should learn from Rome's example. Live your life. Doesn't mean your lifestyle should gain acceptance.

You're conflating a lot of things into a "gay agenda", ascribing motives to everyone in a large and diverse group even while using an example of in-group dispute, then ascribing everything potentially bad to a position now held by 75+% of the population.

You want us to learn from Rome but we could probably ascribe some of their issues to the spread of monotheistic religions rather than the spread of too many individual liberties.

You're correct in that some gays are very vocal against the trans agenda. Sometimes the gay agenda and the trans agenda are two separate things foisted onto us by two different groups all under the LGBTQ umbrella. In practice, LGBTQ is still forcing society to fully accept their way of living through their activism.

[Phoenix Dark]

Most of the leftist conversations I've seen don't recommend banning but I've seen many that say it shouldn't be taught in schools because "white savior" or "a white's perspective doesn't matter." Brain worms and frankly not much better than wanting to ban a book due to being racist.

To be perfectly honest...they've targeted a variety of classic lit books. I've seen leftists argue Lord Of The Flies is problematic because it lacks diversity, and that a book centered on white male perspectives is worthless. Yes I agree with you, this is parody level stupidity. I said earlier I'm fine with that book not being taught, given that some may view it as dated, but that it belongs in school libraries. To exile it based on extremist views on representation is insane.

There's probably somebody out there pitching a Lord Of The Flies remake with a diverse cast. Not recognizing that them all being (white) boys, and the type of British school they came from, are central to what the book is saying.

I think thats a simplification. What Ive heard is that a lot of the classics aren't exactly great literature, but theyre taught due to inertia + a small pool. Aka, books written by white American or British men, and new generations teaching what they were taught.

AKA, while there is certainly value to teaching Shakespeare, because of how influential the storylines are, you dont need a course that is ONLY Shakespeare.

Because you can only teach so many books in a year, its worth looking at other cultures and languages to see if there are better books to teach that hit on similar points of discussion but are written better or are better balanced.

I agree with half of this. We should always see some progression when it comes to literary work and what is (generally) being presented to students. I would imagine that in the 1960s there was pushback when books like To Kill A Mockingbird started supplanting the works of James Joyce in classrooms, for instance. I have no issue with any of these books we've mentioned, which are quite old, being replaced by newer works from the 80s-today.

But at the same time we can't simply dismiss the fact that there is indeed a movement to ignore, erase, or simply dismiss previous literary works solely on racial grounds. You say some argue the books aren't that well written...but the same thing is happening to Joyce on the university level. Surely no one would argue James Joyce was an overrated writer.

There's a lot of tiktok content shitting on books by blatantly misreading them and judging fictional characters on real world, modern standards. So naturally these people don't like Catcher In The Rye for instance. Personally I'm baffled by the constant obsession with fictional characters mirroring our own views. It's another example of the way low brow media consumption habits are applied to art. A generation of people who grew up watching Disney constantly turn villains into sympathetic good guys - absolving them of their toxicity - are now expecting the same infantile approach be taken to literature. Good luck with Blood Meridian, kid.

[Himu]

This is all started with censoring Huckleberry Finn. Progressives and extreme conservatives both want to censor literature, but censor in their own way that shapes their agenda. In this case the cons just happen to be correct about the lgbtq content in school libraries. K-12 library should not have a book that features visualized fellatio (whether gay or straight) and gender transitions.

[james]

You say some argue the books aren't that well written...but the same thing is happening to Joyce on the university level. Surely no one would argue James Joyce was an overrated writer.

I really enjoyed reading Joyce in high school. However my friend is getting a PhD in literature (or something like that) and despises Joyce. Says hes overrated trash.

[Uncle]

This is all started with censoring Huckleberry Finn. Progressives and extreme conservatives both want to censor literature, but censor in their own way that shapes their agenda. In this case the cons just happen to be correct about the lgbtq content in school libraries. K-12 library should not have a book that features visualized fellatio (whether gay or straight) and gender transitions.

is the fact that it's visually graphic the only issue?

when I was in 7th grade my english teacher had a shelf of random books (not sure if drawn from the library or just personal) and that's where I read Thinner, which opens with a guy getting a handjob from his wife while driving which causes him to run over a gypsy (outdated slur) and gets cursed to lose weight to death

I think the school library had other Stephen King books like It which as everyone now knows features an underage gangbang and graphically discusses penis girth of a fat kid

I also remember that Lord of the Flies has the boys laughing about shoving their stick "up her ass"

similarly another book that was required reading for me was Bless Me Ultima, a coming of age book "exploring the religiosity of Chicano culture" where I remember a group of boys looking through a hole in the wall to see their teacher's pussy

[benjipwns]

You're correct in that some gays are very vocal against the trans agenda. Sometimes the gay agenda and the trans agenda are two separate things foisted onto us by two different groups all under the LGBTQ umbrella. In practice, LGBTQ is still forcing society to fully accept their way of living through their activism.

So who do you want arrested for what?

[james]

This is all started with censoring Huckleberry Finn. Progressives and extreme conservatives both want to censor literature, but censor in their own way that shapes their agenda. In this case the cons just happen to be correct about the lgbtq content in school libraries. K-12 library should not have a book that features visualized fellatio (whether gay or straight) and gender transitions.

is the fact that it's visually graphic the only issue?

when I was in 7th grade my english teacher had a shelf of random books (not sure if drawn from the library or just personal) and that's where I read Thinner, which opens with a guy getting a handjob from his wife while driving which causes him to run over a gypsy (outdated slur) and gets cursed to lose weight to death

I think the school library had other Stephen King books like It which as everyone now knows features an underage gangbang and graphically discusses penis girth of a fat kid

I also remember that Lord of the Flies has the boys laughing about shoving their stick "up her ass"

similarly another book that was required reading for me was Bless Me Ultima, a coming of age book "exploring the religiosity of Chicano culture" where I remember a group of boys looking through a hole in the wall to see their teacher's pussy

We read the Awakening in 9th grade which is described as

"Edna Pontellier and her struggle between her increasingly unorthodox views on femininity and motherhood with the prevailing social attitudes of the turn-of-the-century American South. It is one of the earliest American novels that focuses on women's issues without condescension. It is also widely seen as a landmark work of early feminism'

Super boring.

But we also watched the movie adaptation (Grand Isle) which ends with an extended scene in which the female lead is naked in the ocean on her back.

Long time at the whole class looking at those full ample breasts floating in the ocean



Wait a second.

I like breasts

Was I groomed into enjoying boobs

 

[Cauliflower Of Love]

this is literally the basis of my post on this, though

if you accept that there are good reasons that some books ought to be excluded from school libraries, THEN you can start to dither over the details of whether this particular one is justified or not

bash conservatives and their shit reasoning all you like, just don't pretend that there's no reason literally any book's inclusion should ever be questioned

All they have to do is simply apply the test determined by the USSC - the Miller Test.

That being said, I propose an updated version, the Himu test.

Basically, whatever Himu thinks, do they exact opposite.

I love that you're so obsessed with me.

I think youre fascinating.

Pretty much everyone at the bore is an educated, successful professional in their 30s-40s. We may not agree on everything, but we have the basic building blocks needed to have a conversation based around logic and reason.

You arent like that. Youre the 30% of the population that is low-IQ and incredibly easy to manipulate, confuse, and recruit. Its a fantastic insight into how folks like Trump or Chavez or Bolsonaro develop cults and can within the span of a single sentence proudly proclaim two completely contradictory viewpoints while actually genuinely thinking you are smart and logical and right.

Its just remarkable.

The problem with political consultants and operatives, especially on the left, is that they dont have access to people like you to prod and poke and observe. Youre a goldmine.

When you post, I feel the same level of excitement Dr. Oz must feel when he sees a fresh litter of puppies.

Holy shit a good James post.

[Himu]

You're correct in that some gays are very vocal against the trans agenda. Sometimes the gay agenda and the trans agenda are two separate things foisted onto us by two different groups all under the LGBTQ umbrella. In practice, LGBTQ is still forcing society to fully accept their way of living through their activism.

So who do you want arrested for what?

Never said anything about arrests. Just disagree with their agenda.

[Cauliflower Of Love]

also I'm not educated or a professional.

[Himu]

This is all started with censoring Huckleberry Finn. Progressives and extreme conservatives both want to censor literature, but censor in their own way that shapes their agenda. In this case the cons just happen to be correct about the lgbtq content in school libraries. K-12 library should not have a book that features visualized fellatio (whether gay or straight) and gender transitions.

is the fact that it's visually graphic the only issue?

when I was in 7th grade my english teacher had a shelf of random books (not sure if drawn from the library or just personal) and that's where I read Thinner, which opens with a guy getting a handjob from his wife while driving which causes him to run over a gypsy (outdated slur) and gets cursed to lose weight to death

I think the school library had other Stephen King books like It which as everyone now knows features an underage gangbang and graphically discusses penis girth of a fat kid

I also remember that Lord of the Flies has the boys laughing about shoving their stick "up her ass"

similarly another book that was required reading for me was Bless Me Ultima, a coming of age book "exploring the religiosity of Chicano culture" where I remember a group of boys looking through a hole in the wall to see their teacher's pussy

For me it's not about visual graphic content that's the issue or we wouldn't be able to read some truly amazing work in High School. None of these things you mention are a part of an agenda to push on young people. No one wants to gang bang a girl to defeat an intergalactic demon in the shape of a clown so the teacher hands them It to read on how to do so. Meanwhile, if you think you're trans, a teacher can suggest an LGBTQ agenda laced book to check out at the library that includes visualizations of blowjobs and transitioning, all while not telling the student's parents what's going on. One is just the creative enterprise of the mind; the other, full on indoctrination.

[Nintex]

No one wants to gang bang a girl to defeat an intergalactic demon in the shape of a clown

[Himu]

No one wants to gang bang a girl to defeat an intergalactic demon in the shape of a clown

[james]

I guess I need to read It

[Uncle]

None of these things you mention are a part of an agenda to push on young people.

well, I mentioned explicit content, but how can you be so confident that the rest of those books don't promote an agenda?

broadly you can say that school has an agenda to teach kids how to be good citizens in the society they grow up in, and required literature might just be about how to read anything at all, and absorb what you read and think about it critically

but how can we be sure that these specific books aren't chosen to fulfill an agenda, and it's just that nobody noticed until we all became hyper-scrutinizing of everything? additionally, while we wield the word "agenda" as a dark insidious thing, can't there be positive agendas?

like Lord of the Flies teaching us to reject superstition/fear, petty tribalism and mob mentality that leads us to commit terrible acts without thinking

those who want to foster tribalism and in group/out group thinking might want us to reject this message, and would grumble about the book's agenda

they'd say things like, "sometimes it IS important to get angry and take a stand, let the mob justice wash over us and burn it all down...this book urging calm rationality props up institutions which are threatened by any call to action"

[benjipwns]

Never said anything about arrests. Just disagree with their agenda.

What are you even talking about here then? You've gone on and on about the dangers of acceptance and pointed to changes in the law as the issue and how there will be blowback from it, now you're saying that you think the blowback should just be some more criticism?

[Cauliflower Of Love]

himu, find help.

[Himu]

Never said anything about arrests. Just disagree with their agenda.

What are you even talking about here then? You've gone on and on about the dangers of acceptance and pointed to changes in the law as the issue and how there will be blowback from it, now you're saying that you think the blowback should just be some more criticism?

My argument remains the same. Gay marriage legalization allowed activists to roll their other issues into a big ball that society just has to accept at face value, cannot question, and must accept fully or else you're a bigot.

None of these things you mention are a part of an agenda to push on young people.

well, I mentioned explicit content, but how can you be so confident that the rest of those books don't promote an agenda?

broadly you can say that school has an agenda to teach kids how to be good citizens in the society they grow up in, and required literature might just be about how to read anything at all, and absorb what you read and think about it critically

but how can we be sure that these specific books aren't chosen to fulfill an agenda, and it's just that nobody noticed until we all became hyper-scrutinizing of everything? additionally, while we wield the word "agenda" as a dark insidious thing, can't there be positive agendas?

like Lord of the Flies teaching us to reject superstition/fear, petty tribalism and mob mentality that leads us to commit terrible acts without thinking

those who want to foster tribalism and in group/out group thinking might want us to reject this message, and would grumble about the book's agenda

they'd say things like, "sometimes it IS important to get angry and take a stand, let the mob justice wash over us and burn it all down...this book urging calm rationality props up institutions which are threatened by any call to action"

This is a fair postulation on your part, and much more nuanced and high thinking than what is normally presented on this site. I applaud you. It can be argued any creative exercise is used to articulate the creators agenda because art is a mind's exercise and most art has something to say, or most good art does. To be true, Lord of the Flies demonstrates the human capacity to go from civilized to group think within a hair of each other just as The Old Man And The Sea is a story about adversity and strength of heart no matter the odds. So it would be true that most art is the the author, director, photographer articulating their truth which may contain very key life lessons. But I do not think the snapshots of the book (books) above satisfies that urge. To be sure, it's the authors experience, and I'm not taking away from that. But another passage from one book is:

“I can’t wait to have your cum in my mouth. I am going to give you the blowjob of your life, and then I want you inside me.”

“What if I told you I touched another guy’s dick? What if I told you I sucked it? I was ten years old, but it’s true. I sucked Doug Goble’s dick, the real estate guy, and he sucked mine too.”

Do you approve of pedophilic content? It's not saying any of this is a bad thing, by the way. How is this promoting a life lesson? How is it something worth telling a K-12 student?

Is all content in libraries allowed? Are children allowed to read anything and everything? They can still get the book, but not in the school library.

What's the line? Considering that a school recently had an assignment where they request second graders to take pictures of themselves in the bathtub, how does one separate truly abusive intent with innocent inquiry? Do you not see the agenda? Is this content really appropriate for a K-12 library? Are we allowed to grab some hentai in the library too now since we're being fair and all? Do they have Throat Gaggers Volume 3 to check out?

Do you think it's okay for a kid struggling with their sexuality to read a book that says it's okay to give the real estate man a blowjob? What's your limit?

himu, find help.

I had my therapy session today and it went great, thank you very much. I'm perfectly fine and doing pretty great.

[james]

Do you think it's okay for a kid struggling with their sexuality to read a book that says it's okay to give the real estate man a blowjob? What's your limit?

Thats not what is happening in the quote.

The author is describing a real experience he had where he, a 4th grader, sucked the dick of another 4th grader (who later became a real estate agent)

He is not condoning the act. He is not instructing others. He is retelling true events.


Your argument is basically:

a) The actions being talked about are bad
and
b) If kids read this, they will do this.

Its the same lazy argument that says we should ban violent video games. If a kid plays Goldeneye, then surely he will start to kill right?

And presumably, the author of the book had his blowjob experience without having read the book.

[benjipwns]

My argument remains the same. Gay marriage legalization allowed activists to roll their other issues into a big ball that society just has to accept at face value, cannot question, and must accept fully or else you're a bigot.

Okay, but you don't want gay marriage derecognized or things like sodomy recriminalized even though those victories of the "gay agenda" led to what you consider the current state of things.

[Himu]

Do you think it's okay for a kid struggling with their sexuality to read a book that says it's okay to give the real estate man a blowjob? What's your limit?

Thats not what is happening in the quote.

The author is describing a real experience he had where he, a 4th grader, sucked the dick of another 4th grader (who later became a real estate agent)

He is not condoning the act. He is not instructing others. He is retelling true events.


Your argument is basically:

a) The actions being talked about are bad
and
b) If kids read this, they will do this.

Its the same lazy argument that says we should ban violent video games. If a kid plays Goldeneye, then surely he will start to kill right?

And presumably, the author of the book had his blowjob experience without having read the book.

It contains extremely pornographic material in a High School. I'm sorry but in the 90's and 00's you know for a fact that shit wouldn't be there in our libraries.

[Uncle]

What's your limit?

well, I was the person arguing in favor of some content possibly being too much for a school library

I think I'd be ok with that book not being present, and there are probably other books that could fulfill whatever rhetorical niche is broadly intended by that book without the graphic content, i.e. if the school must have an "it's ok to be gay and here is my life story" book

I think it's also likely that a majority of schools already don't stock that particular book...does the left condemn those schools for being so bigoted as to screen that content?


but I also think it's untenable to say "if a book has an agenda then we must remove it" because I think every book has some level of agenda, and that's ok

What's the line? Considering that a school recently had an assignment where they request second graders to take pictures of themselves in the bathtub, how does one separate truly abusive intent with innocent inquiry? Do you not see the agenda?

this one I'm convinced is a mountain out of a molehill, just a silly activity for kids with a hypersensitive parent

like if they'd said "take a photo of a toilet lol" and were forced to clarify that no one should be actively using said toilet

and since it seems to be a paid academy, the school had the luxury to cut ties with the karen parent because they could foresee this shit happening repeatedly down the line

[Himu]

I think it's also likely that a majority of schools already don't stock that particular book...does the left condemn those schools for being so bigoted as to screen that content?

The left is celebrating Lawn Boy and Gender Queer.

https://theforestscout.com/34659/in-our-opinion/to-ban-or-not-to-ban-a-students-perspective/

but I also think it's untenable to say "if a book has an agenda then we must remove it" because I think every book has some level of agenda, and that's ok

I agree this is a slippery slope and completely untenable.

[Cauliflower Of Love]

this is bizarre.

[james]

It contains extremely pornographic material in a High School. I'm sorry but in the 90's and 00's you know for a fact that shit wouldn't be there in our libraries.

Describing a blow job is extremely pornographic material?

“What,with my tongue in your tail?” - Taming of the Shrew

Here is a summary of a scene in Joyces Ulysses, which we certainly read in high school in the 90s

In episode fifteen, while Bloom is at the brothel, he imagines switching roles with the proprietor, Bella Cohen. Not only roles, but genders: Bella becomes a man, Bello, and Bloom becomes a woman, Miss Ruby, ready to be penetrated. The fantasy is one of subjugation, sadomasochism, cross-dressing, and, in a strange twist of events, bestiality.

...

One can’t help but wince when they read that Bello “bares his arm and plunges it elbowdeep in Bloom’s vulva”! One of the most brutal scenes in the novel, here Bloom is feminized, violently fisted, and then branded. Bloom becomes both a woman and a beast as ‘she’ is auctioned off at a cattlemarket to the highest bidder, the climax of a sustained sexual fantasy gaining fervor and becoming increasingly lewd. This scene is, for lack of a better word, vulgar. Not smutty or sexy or salacious, but vulgar. If its intention was to shock readers, it likely did so — if they got that far into the notoriously long and difficult novel.

Of course the same slack-jawed conservatives tried to get it banned.

In 1932, Random House and lawyer Morris Ernst arranged to import the French edition and have a copy seized by Customs. Random House contested the seizure, and in United States v. One Book Called Ulysses, U.S. District Judge John M. Woolsey ruled that the book was not pornographic and therefore could not be obscene,[69] a decision Stuart Gilbert called "epoch-making".[70] The Second Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the ruling in 1934.[71] The U.S. thus became the first English-speaking country where the book was freely available.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_(novel)#Censorship

[Uncle]

The left is celebrating Lawn Boy and Gender Queer.

https://theforestscout.com/34659/in-our-opinion/to-ban-or-not-to-ban-a-students-perspective/

if the caption isn't misleading, this appears to be an opinion article in the school newspaper written by a random senior, not "the left" at large

[Cauliflower Of Love]

I can't believe i'm finding so much respect for james in a poli thread.

[Himu]

It contains extremely pornographic material in a High School. I'm sorry but in the 90's and 00's you know for a fact that shit wouldn't be there in our libraries.

Describing a blow job is extremely pornographic material?

“What,with my tongue in your tail?” - Taming of the Shrew

Here is a summary of a scene in Joyces Ulysses, which we certainly read in high school in the 90s

In episode fifteen, while Bloom is at the brothel, he imagines switching roles with the proprietor, Bella Cohen. Not only roles, but genders: Bella becomes a man, Bello, and Bloom becomes a woman, Miss Ruby, ready to be penetrated. The fantasy is one of subjugation, sadomasochism, cross-dressing, and, in a strange twist of events, bestiality.

...

One can’t help but wince when they read that Bello “bares his arm and plunges it elbowdeep in Bloom’s vulva”! One of the most brutal scenes in the novel, here Bloom is feminized, violently fisted, and then branded. Bloom becomes both a woman and a beast as ‘she’ is auctioned off at a cattlemarket to the highest bidder, the climax of a sustained sexual fantasy gaining fervor and becoming increasingly lewd. This scene is, for lack of a better word, vulgar. Not smutty or sexy or salacious, but vulgar. If its intention was to shock readers, it likely did so — if they got that far into the notoriously long and difficult novel.

Of course the same slack-jawed conservatives tried to get it banned.

In 1932, Random House and lawyer Morris Ernst arranged to import the French edition and have a copy seized by Customs. Random House contested the seizure, and in United States v. One Book Called Ulysses, U.S. District Judge John M. Woolsey ruled that the book was not pornographic and therefore could not be obscene,[69] a decision Stuart Gilbert called "epoch-making".[70] The Second Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the ruling in 1934.[71] The U.S. thus became the first English-speaking country where the book was freely available.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_(novel)#Censorship

Fair point and well reasoned.

[benjipwns]

I'm sorry but in the 90's and 00's you know for a fact that shit wouldn't be there in our libraries.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to pretend like the school officials I had growing up were paragons of virtue and ethics who should regulate our culture forever.

[Himu]

https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1577021626012422144

Uncle do you think this is appropriate in a K-12 setting?

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/disney-executive-producer-admits-to-gay-agenda-adding-queerness-wherever-she-could/

Since you doubt a gay agenda.

[Himu]

I'm sorry but in the 90's and 00's you know for a fact that shit wouldn't be there in our libraries.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to pretend like the school officials I had growing up were paragons of virtue and ethics who should regulate our culture forever.

Let me write an anecdote.

A baby gets sick. He laid in his bed going cough, cough, cough!  His mother buys a dark red syrup to ease the pain and make his hard throat soft. The baby spits out the cough syrup. "I'll force feed the medicine by pinch his cheeks in!"

Down it went. It tasted disgusting.

The child got older and was sick again. He laid in his bed going cough, cough, cough! His mother buys a dark red syrup to ease the pain but this time had another thought! "I'll promise his ice cream if he takes his medicine!"

Down it went. It smelled disgusting but at least there was dessert afterwards.

The child became a teenager and was sick again. He laid in his bed going cough, cough, cough! His father buys a dark red syrup to ease the pain but this time the teenager took it willingly. "I'll disappoint dad if I don't take it!"

Down it went. It looked disgusting but he made his father happy.

The teenager became a man and was sick again. He laid in his bed going cough, cough, cough! He buys a dark red syrup to ease the pain but this time the man couldn't wait to take it. "The more I'm sick the less work I can get done!"

Down it went. It actually tasted pretty good!

Throughout our lives we are raised in a specific manner and taught certain values by our parents, our communities, our nations. Many of these things we reject because we find them outdated or just flat out wrong. There comes a time in every person's life when we can finally admit that some things, mom and dad were right about all along and we come to embrace tradition, our parents, and our culture.

Being grown means being able to say you were wrong in how you rejected what you were taught and that your parents, your family, your culture were right along.

Thank God for tradition. In this world there's only Right and Wrong and some of us take our medicine later than others.

https://twitter.com/D_B_Harrison/status/1434262910696493058

https://twitter.com/tradcatmaria/status/1434235268094173185

https://twitter.com/lavern_spicer/status/1434231529891368962

[Potato]

If a kid plays Goldeneye, then surely he will start to kill right?

If he is going to do it with devastating style, good looks and panache like James Bond, then who are we to discourage him?

[benjipwns]

Thank God for tradition. In this world there's only Right and Wrong and some of us take our medicine later than others.

But if you just want independent social shaming for people who won't take their medicine or even those who advocate that the medicine actually is bad then why are you posting diatribes about it in a politics thread?

[Himu]

Tell my friends in Dearborn I said hi, Benji.

[Nintex]

https://twitter.com/KSAmofaEN/status/1580342638816808960

Saudi's throw Joe Biden under the bus

[Himu]

So the backwards, sand filled Saudi wants to come at the hand that feeds them. Fitting for Saudi arrogance. Filthy Wahhabis.