Author Topic: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN  (Read 4714 times)

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Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #120 on: July 10, 2023, 02:15:40 AM »
I'm getting towards the end of this.

I like it. I think after Typhon it's not immediately "good" but rather that's the baseline point where the game actually starts and gets better as it goes and grows on you. I like Clive and the NPCs.

I think my biggest complaint besides the combat being whatever, and basically for all the effort they put in the combat isn't all that much deeper than FF15's simple combat, is that HD CITIES ARE STILL TOO HARD FOR SE which is extremely pathetic all these years later. Especially after FF15 has two real legit big ass HD towns with tons of NPCs and shit to do in them. Going back to FF13's "HD TOWNS ARE HARD" is sad. The little enclave towns in FF16 are ok, but considering the game's premise of these giant cities adjoining each mothercrystal, the way the story has to write around them in the plot to avoid the dev team having to actually make explorable cities is  ::)

If this game had at least one real ass city I'd probably bump my endscore of it by like a whole point.

Probably will still end up being the best of the HD series of FF13/15/16, but not like significantly better and they're all still a big downgrade from 1-10 and 12 in single player FFs. Maybe some day we'll get an HD FF that is up there with the quality of the games pre-HD, a good start would be if it had some actual cities to walk around. FF14 has two cities per expansion and that goes a long way.

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #121 on: July 10, 2023, 02:32:29 AM »
Also the game kinda suffers from having a shit antagonist so far, kind of like FF13. At least FF15 game had Ardyn whose alright and FF15 novel had

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Space probe Bahamut

Which had a great villain origin story
[close]

Rpgs are better with a cool/interesting antagonist on the other side. Hence why people love FF7 for Sephiroth and FF6 for Kefka even though both are kind of dweebs but they had strong personalities and visual looks.

MMaRsu

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #122 on: July 10, 2023, 08:22:59 AM »
Yeah, this is definitely not an RPG and totally just an Action Adventure with "RPG elements" sprinkled in.. just like most character action games nowadays... And it's completely fine.  It works and is still fun to play and gorgeous to watch.  Unlike other games of late *ahem, I have to stop myself from engaging in every enemy encounter because the fighting is so fun and actually rewarding.

Not too far still.. guess I went through a pacing slump; heading back to Phoenix Gate with Jill.  Some of the side quests are total snoozers, some are actual fat slices of background lore/scenarios. 
Only big boss fight so far was Geruda.. which was really fun.  My damn muscle memory keeps making me faulter in fights though; hitting O to dodge instead of R1.   :duh

I need the OST.  Good shit.

this is definitely not an RPG and totally just an Action Adventure with "RPG elements" sprinkled in

Yes

Fun game to watch though.

Sidequests, NPC's and world building is kinda shit tho. No interesting final boss either. Oh yeah the guy trying to kill us with his boring talks that last 45 minutes
What

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #123 on: July 10, 2023, 12:29:32 PM »
Also FF16 could have benefitted from a different style of soundtrack.

Yeah the Eikon battle songs are awesome, Cid's hideaway song is good, battle tracks are great. But like 75% of the ost is really minimalist film-like scores for the field music and cutscene music and it's totally unmemorable.

I like Soken a lot, but compare FF16's soundtrack to any of the FF14 osts and it's a huge difference in style. FF14 every field zone has distinct strong night and day tracks, cutscene music is made to be in the foreground and melodramatic.

FF16's ost is fine. But to me it feels like it's got like 10 amazing tracks and the rest is zzz. Which for a 50 hour+ rpg is kinda disappointing. Prefer Shimomura and Hamauzu's work on 15/13 because of that. Those also have some minimalist cinematic score stuff, but I feel like they've got more distinct tracks for fields and cutscenes in addition to the good battle stuff.

Svejk

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2023, 10:39:04 AM »
Like I said: franchise without a vision.
I can agree with this in the aspect that labeling the titles as "main line" numbered entries is completely pointless now.  Didn't they say they're going to do away with them anyway?  I think they should at this point.  There's just too many spin-offs, sequels, mobile/handheld fodder, etc., that too much is hung and expected on that numbered entry.  Personally, I would've prefered they only stuck with them since the beginning and didn't do any of the spin-offs of sorts; Kept the scarcity of the franchise pure and solid... But I can only admit that I have only recently in the past few years grown to see that.  It's too late now. 

Zelda had a chance, but they're fucking it up now.  These games are just not what they use to be, and not necessarily in a good way. 

As for this entry, this is what GOW should have done... The epic scale of boss fights that GOW3 had is all here.  Glad I skipped GOW:R and played this instead.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2023, 02:51:38 PM »
Like I said: franchise without a vision.
I can agree with this in the aspect that labeling the titles as "main line" numbered entries is completely pointless now.  Didn't they say they're going to do away with them anyway?  I think they should at this point.  There's just too many spin-offs, sequels, mobile/handheld fodder, etc., that too much is hung and expected on that numbered entry.  Personally, I would've prefered they only stuck with them since the beginning and didn't do any of the spin-offs of sorts; Kept the scarcity of the franchise pure and solid... But I can only admit that I have only recently in the past few years grown to see that.  It's too late now. 

Zelda had a chance, but they're fucking it up now.  These games are just not what they use to be, and not necessarily in a good way. 

As for this entry, this is what GOW should have done... The epic scale of boss fights that GOW3 had is all here.  Glad I skipped GOW:R and played this instead.

I agree that the numbers helps create baggage for Square Enix. But it also another thing: prestige. Problem is that the prestige of the numbered entry is now gone. It used to be, when a numbered entry FF came out it was a huge effing deal. But after XIII and XIV screw ups the franchise is kind of tainted. Not everyone liked XV either. This is the first time I've heard of SE wanting to get rid of the numbers but it makes sense if they did. People would be less mad when come out with entries they don't like and can move on to the next game that does interest them. It would also allow them the opportunity to do something no one else could think of: create a high budget turn based ATB FF of yore without it having to be tied to the numbered entries. Put it on Switch and it'd sell. People wouldn't get bogged down with the number and those that don't have an interest in that kind of thing could ignore it. They could drop the numbers and focus on two audiences: their classical Japanese audience and their new western hack and slash audience. Either way, we as fans win. If you want both, you get both. If you want one, you can pick which one and still get your cake and eat it too. Win win. After X the numbers lost any sense of significance anyways. That was when Final Fantasy as we knew it truly died. There's a giant number of people that want classical Final Fantasy. Stuff like Bravely are advertised as FF but not but let's be real, they're not Final Fantasy nor are they approaching the acclaim of FF's classic years (FFIV-X).

If I were SE I would do the following:

I would announce Final Fantasy XVII, XVIII, XIX, and XX. All at once. I would also say that Final Fantasy XX would be the FINAL, LAST NUMBERED FF. A true Final Fantasy. I would put one director on this project with one composer, a consistent writing team, and one character designer to give it one consistent vision, in the same way classical FF had. This project would be one full saga of games in the same way Mass Effect trilogy was, telling one complete story. Then when it ends Final Fantasy continues but no more numbered entries come out.

The amount of money to be made with this project...



The project would have to be the highest of quality. A true going away. Hire Sakaguchi. Make him producer. Do whatever you can. This project would help give the numbered games prestige again so that when they do away with the numbers they make everything with FF's name on it high quality, allowing them to make less FF overall, but make the name mean something again. FF could become like Zelda: an event game. Currently isn't an event anymore.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 03:00:41 PM by Himu »
FUNK

Pissy F Benny

  • Is down with the sickness
  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #126 on: July 11, 2023, 02:57:43 PM »
First big beef about the game, the titan fight is way too fucking long.
(ice)

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #127 on: July 11, 2023, 03:19:56 PM »
Even if they don't use numbers, it'll be really clear which ones are the mainline due to the budgets.

Although are we counting FF7r games as mainline? Because those seem to have similar budgets to main numbered entries. I think I'd consider them mainline FF games like FFX-2.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #128 on: July 11, 2023, 03:38:46 PM »
Mainline or not, the problem is the number, their expectations, and the baggage they create. XVI looks like it has less budget than VIIR despite the fact XVI is the latest numbered game and therefore should be a bigger deal yet VIIR is the bigger game. Yeah, it comes from one of the most popular game entries, but it's still a remake. Therefore the number doesn't mean much anymore when even the numbered entry is getting outclassed and more interest is garnered for a remake. XVI had SE worried until they released that free demo for XVI. That's how in the toilet numbered FF games are.

I find it interesting how FFVIIR is the latest FF event game but FFXVI kind of isn't. I will probably get a ps5 slim for FFVIIR. I won't be buying XVI.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 03:45:50 PM by Himu »
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Pissy F Benny

  • Is down with the sickness
  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #129 on: July 11, 2023, 06:18:32 PM »
ff16 doesnt look low budget at all aisde from the kinda shitty faces which is a design choice more than anything  :doge
(ice)

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #130 on: July 11, 2023, 07:57:29 PM »
ff16 doesnt look low budget at all aisde from the kinda shitty faces

Yeah.

Quote
which is a design choice more than anything  :doge

Yeah, choice to not crash their already struggling engine with higher poly counts  :lol

Svejk

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #131 on: July 11, 2023, 08:15:47 PM »
If I were SE I would do the following:

I would announce Final Fantasy XVII, XVIII, XIX, and XX. All at once. I would also say that Final Fantasy XX would be the FINAL, LAST NUMBERED FF. A true Final Fantasy. I would put one director on this project with one composer, a consistent writing team, and one character designer to give it one consistent vision, in the same way classical FF had. This project would be one full saga of games in the same way Mass Effect trilogy was, telling one complete story. Then when it ends Final Fantasy continues but no more numbered entries come out.

The amount of money to be made with this project...

(Image removed from quote.)

The project would have to be the highest of quality. A true going away. Hire Sakaguchi. Make him producer. Do whatever you can. This project would help give the numbered games prestige again so that when they do away with the numbers they make everything with FF's name on it high quality, allowing them to make less FF overall, but make the name mean something again. FF could become like Zelda: an event game. Currently isn't an event anymore.
:obama I'd buy into it.  Sounds like a proper swan song for the numbered entries of olde.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #132 on: July 11, 2023, 08:18:22 PM »
ff16 doesnt look low budget at all aisde from the kinda shitty faces which is a design choice more than anything  :doge

I'm going off the trailers and the lighting and boring faces/character designs really screamed low budget.
FUNK

Rahxephon91

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #133 on: July 11, 2023, 09:04:26 PM »
There's nothing low-budget about XVI.

And the numbered entries shouldn't end. Thats stupid. FF is an anthology series, where Square puts its best people and best money to see what they will make. It doesn't need to go away, it needs new creatives interested in tackling what that entails.

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #134 on: July 11, 2023, 09:41:40 PM »
That Svarbog or whatever S-rank dragon fight was pretty legit.

Felt like a proper FF14 raid boss fight.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #135 on: July 11, 2023, 10:37:30 PM »
There's nothing low-budget about XVI.

And the numbered entries shouldn't end. Thats stupid. FF is an anthology series, where Square puts its best people and best money to see what they will make. It doesn't need to go away, it needs new creatives interested in tackling what that entails.

But that's the thing. XIII and OG XIV happened so clearly it doesn't have their best people. FF has had blunder after blunder. Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy XVI and Final Fantasy Fantasy XIV are in the same franchise and all numbered which makes no sense. The numbers are utterly pointless and mean nothing any more.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 10:55:21 PM by Himu »
FUNK

Rahxephon91

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #136 on: July 12, 2023, 12:53:04 AM »
There's nothing low-budget about XVI.

And the numbered entries shouldn't end. Thats stupid. FF is an anthology series, where Square puts its best people and best money to see what they will make. It doesn't need to go away, it needs new creatives interested in tackling what that entails.

But that's the thing. XIII and OG XIV happened so clearly it doesn't have their best people. FF has had blunder after blunder. Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy XVI and Final Fantasy Fantasy XIV are in the same franchise and all numbered which makes no sense. The numbers are utterly pointless and mean nothing any more.
But those were the best people.

XIII's director was Toriyama. Someone who is still a major employee at Square and had major involvement with X and X-2. Produced by major FF player and brand manager Kitase. It's the next game from the VII, VIII, and X team.


XIV was produced by Tanaka, a longtime square vet from pretty much the beginning. Hell Yoshida was the art director, pretty much one of the best Square artists.

They did have the best people. Them being questionable games doesn't mean Square didn't have their best staff on them.

They gave XIII to a director who had proven himself with X and X-2.

XIV was directed by Nobuaki Komoto, who had worked on IX and directed XI. Who still works as a main game designer after 2.0

The numbers simply mean big Square rpg and thats what every numbered FF game has been. The numbers are the brand. People don't show up for FF Origin, they show up for FFX whatever, because it without question will be a big game. XVI was everywhere, I don't see how it wasn't as big as VIIR. Besides, this is the not the series problem.

The series at this point is pussyfooting around what it needs to do.

It needed to build on 15's open world.

It needs to decide what kind of combat it's going to be. To me VIIR is the path, not 16.

It needed to seemingly grow up in dialogue and storytelling, which 16 is attempting.

It needs to keep its cinematic and story-focused approach which 16 is mostly doing.

To me, it's clear 17 needs to basically take the building blocks and strengths of 15, 16, and 7R. Then combine them into something that pushes Japanese role playing games next to their peers for the series Breath of the Wild Moment.

16 should have had VIIR's battle system and rpg aspects, kept 16's storytelling and presentation, and improved upon 15's open world. Then we'd see a game that sells more than 10 million easily.

FF17 needs to remind people why people ever gave a damn about jrpgs, but it needs to bring them to the modern age. While 16 and VIIR are good games, they don't do that. They take half-measures, probably so Square can wrap its head around actually developing them.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 01:27:04 AM by Rahxephon91 »

demi

  • cooler than willco
  • Administrator
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #137 on: July 12, 2023, 12:55:45 AM »
Svarog was probably the best fight in the game, and its optional. I actually died - though that was me being dogshit
fat

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #138 on: July 12, 2023, 01:17:37 AM »
Svarog was probably the best fight in the game, and its optional. I actually died - though that was me being dogshit

That's what I just said.

I also died for the first time in the game on it. Actually had to change up some skills. Was fun. Good FF14 boss fights play pretty similar to that one imo.

Rahxephon91

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #139 on: July 12, 2023, 12:17:37 PM »
Yeah that was the first Hunt that was great.

There is also a Chimera hunt that is basically the same from XIV.

Fortus

  • Junior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #140 on: July 12, 2023, 01:39:43 PM »
Finished Final Fantasy Mode. Hunts were the highlight. Second playthrough was suprisingly entertaining throughout, aside from the Dominant fights after Typhon. Those were just downright tedious. "Oh you've finally worked your way through that masssive HP bar...looks like you had fun. Here's ANOTHER full HP bar to keep the party going!" and another...and another...
I'd give the game 4 out of 5 stars if it weren't for those fights. Still would recommend it though. Think I'll try a speed run of regular NG+ to clear up some trophies though I doubt I'll bother getting the Platinum like I did for 13. All in all game was a step up from 15, for me anyways, which I never finished. Got to chapter 5 in that and just...set it aside and never went back. Hopefully the next mainline will return to turn-based, party, jobs etc
pie

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #141 on: July 12, 2023, 02:27:41 PM »
Iíd recommend giving FF15 another shot. Especially on PC if you can with the royal edition and 4k/60fps.

Game is majorly flawed but fun. DLCs are enjoyable too and Iíd seriously recommend the novel Dawn of the Future to everyone that finished the game + DLCs. The novel improved my opinion of the game by a lot.

Olivia Wilde Homo

  • Proud Kinkshamer
  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #142 on: July 13, 2023, 10:33:31 PM »
Like I said: franchise without a vision.
I can agree with this in the aspect that labeling the titles as "main line" numbered entries is completely pointless now.  Didn't they say they're going to do away with them anyway?  I think they should at this point.  There's just too many spin-offs, sequels, mobile/handheld fodder, etc., that too much is hung and expected on that numbered entry.  Personally, I would've prefered they only stuck with them since the beginning and didn't do any of the spin-offs of sorts; Kept the scarcity of the franchise pure and solid... But I can only admit that I have only recently in the past few years grown to see that.  It's too late now. 

Zelda had a chance, but they're fucking it up now.  These games are just not what they use to be, and not necessarily in a good way. 

As for this entry, this is what GOW should have done... The epic scale of boss fights that GOW3 had is all here.  Glad I skipped GOW:R and played this instead.

I agree that the numbers helps create baggage for Square Enix. But it also another thing: prestige. Problem is that the prestige of the numbered entry is now gone. It used to be, when a numbered entry FF came out it was a huge effing deal. But after XIII and XIV screw ups the franchise is kind of tainted. Not everyone liked XV either. This is the first time I've heard of SE wanting to get rid of the numbers but it makes sense if they did. People would be less mad when come out with entries they don't like and can move on to the next game that does interest them. It would also allow them the opportunity to do something no one else could think of: create a high budget turn based ATB FF of yore without it having to be tied to the numbered entries. Put it on Switch and it'd sell. People wouldn't get bogged down with the number and those that don't have an interest in that kind of thing could ignore it. They could drop the numbers and focus on two audiences: their classical Japanese audience and their new western hack and slash audience. Either way, we as fans win. If you want both, you get both. If you want one, you can pick which one and still get your cake and eat it too. Win win. After X the numbers lost any sense of significance anyways. That was when Final Fantasy as we knew it truly died. There's a giant number of people that want classical Final Fantasy. Stuff like Bravely are advertised as FF but not but let's be real, they're not Final Fantasy nor are they approaching the acclaim of FF's classic years (FFIV-X).

If I were SE I would do the following:

I would announce Final Fantasy XVII, XVIII, XIX, and XX. All at once. I would also say that Final Fantasy XX would be the FINAL, LAST NUMBERED FF. A true Final Fantasy. I would put one director on this project with one composer, a consistent writing team, and one character designer to give it one consistent vision, in the same way classical FF had. This project would be one full saga of games in the same way Mass Effect trilogy was, telling one complete story. Then when it ends Final Fantasy continues but no more numbered entries come out.

The amount of money to be made with this project...

(Image removed from quote.)

The project would have to be the highest of quality. A true going away. Hire Sakaguchi. Make him producer. Do whatever you can. This project would help give the numbered games prestige again so that when they do away with the numbers they make everything with FF's name on it high quality, allowing them to make less FF overall, but make the name mean something again. FF could become like Zelda: an event game. Currently isn't an event anymore.

No way, it needs to end at Final Fantasy 30.
🍆🍆

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #143 on: July 14, 2023, 05:56:03 PM »
You just want XXX, you fucker. :lol
FUNK

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #144 on: July 16, 2023, 02:45:15 AM »
At endgame and kind of burnt out on the pacing structure of "do a short story mission" -> "do 90 mins of sidequests" -> repeat.

The world feels pretty small so all the side stuff is just going through the same areas over and over again. I guess because like 50%+ of the game's budget goes into the action stages, so the open world zone areas are limited by the remaining budget.

Story's also kind of losing me after

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Bahamut
[close]

Will see how I feel about it overall when it's done.

demi

  • cooler than willco
  • Administrator
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #145 on: July 16, 2023, 02:54:33 PM »
Finished every trophy beyond NG+, going to finish the game tonight.

The later half definitely slows down tremendously, and they do one last cumload of side quests hoping you won't beat the game immediately to pad out the playtime.
fat

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #146 on: July 16, 2023, 03:50:39 PM »
Just tired of doing the sidequests for the same 3 people over and over.

This feels like the most budget limited FF game to me with how small the world is (Maybe on par with FF15, FF15's world map is definitely much bigger, but less dense), then again like I said I think most of the budget went into the Call of Duty stages which are one and done bits.

Even the combat gets old. I feel like all the good eikon attacks are in the first couple. The last few Eikons I try out their moves and never bother with them because they aren't any better than the kit I have going. Like phoenix dash basically beats out everything and you need to keep garuda on for mid-stagger grabs. Also seems like zero point in titan's guard counters since they do tiny damage and lock you into animation to get hit.

Game's a good game and I think it'll be a memorable FF, but yeah it's pretty mid. Probably like an 8/10.

demi

  • cooler than willco
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Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #147 on: July 16, 2023, 05:02:58 PM »
Holy FUCK the final boss is so sick. Oh my god what a conclusion
fat

demi

  • cooler than willco
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Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #148 on: July 16, 2023, 05:18:32 PM »
Zelda TOTK straight destroyed my will to play videogames, but FF16 was like a shot of adrenaline. I love videogames
fat

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #149 on: July 16, 2023, 06:49:55 PM »
Zelda TOTK straight destroyed my will to play videogames, but FF16 was like a shot of adrenaline. I love videogames

Glad you enjoyed it!

Fortus

  • Junior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #150 on: July 17, 2023, 09:05:34 PM »
Just tired of doing the sidequests for the same 3 people over and over.

This feels like the most budget limited FF game to me with how small the world is (Maybe on par with FF15, FF15's world map is definitely much bigger, but less dense), then again like I said I think most of the budget went into the Call of Duty stages which are one and done bits.

Even the combat gets old. I feel like all the good eikon attacks are in the first couple. The last few Eikons I try out their moves and never bother with them because they aren't any better than the kit I have going. Like phoenix dash basically beats out everything and you need to keep garuda on for mid-stagger grabs. Also seems like zero point in titan's guard counters since they do tiny damage and lock you into animation to get hit.

Game's a good game and I think it'll be a memorable FF, but yeah it's pretty mid. Probably like an 8/10.

Those repeating sidequests lead to some good fights and in the case of the blacksmith the game's best weapon. Yeah there are a lot of mmo type 'fetch' quests and I wish they had spread things out more over the course of the game. Like Demi said the closer you get to the end the more side stuff becomes available. Curious to know what skills you use since the only Eikon tree I didn't slot from was Odin
pie

demi

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Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #151 on: July 17, 2023, 09:09:24 PM »
Odin is "ok" he was fun to use in the Chronolith trial.

I used:

- Phoenix (Rising Flame / Heatwave)
- Garuda (Aerial Blast / Wicked Wheel)
- Bahamut (Impulse / Gigaflare)

The whole game pretty much
fat

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #152 on: July 17, 2023, 10:13:14 PM »
My kit hasn't changed since post-Titan. I try the new moves but they don't seem better for my playstyle. I pretty much just min/maxed for damage/stagger using the moves with the most stars into damage or stagger.

Phoenix - main movement w/dash, (Will o Wykes shield on almost all the time / Ramuh's Pile Driver for grunt AoE)
Garuda - for mid-stagger grabs (Phoenix Rising Flame for quick big damage / Gouge for stagger)
Whatever since all the rest of the O attacks suck ass (Titan's Windup for big damage / Ramuh's Judgment Bolt for midboss/boss killer)

Basically just put on Will o Wykes shield buff and go to town with Rising Flame/Pile Driver which mid-staggers -> garuda grab -> gouge -> full stagger -> pop strength tonic -> limit break -> bunch of hits for multiplier -> Titan Windup and Judgment bolt before stagger finishes.

I wish I had a few more AoE attacks for grunts, but most AoE attacks suck for midbosses/bosses and I don't want to have to keep changing the kit so I just stick with that.

Fortus

  • Junior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #153 on: July 17, 2023, 11:55:26 PM »
Interesting that neither of you use Diamond Dust. It's fantastic for eating Stagger bar on Bosses and does nice AoE for trash

My set-up at end game was:
Ifrit slotted with Scarlet Cyclone and Gigaflare
Garuda with Gouge and Aerial Blast
Ramuh with Diamond Dust and Judgement Bolt

I like Aerial Blast not just for picking up trash but it's a nice Stagger DoT for Bosses
pie

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #154 on: July 18, 2023, 12:39:14 AM »
Will o Wykes negating a fuckton of incoming damage lets you play fast and risky and almost never take damage. Best attack in the game imo. The added chip stagger multiplier increases is a nice bonus, but it's basically a win button shield that I never take off.

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #155 on: July 18, 2023, 12:59:02 AM »
I'll give the game's combat system credit that different people use completely different setups and combat strategies.

Joe Molotov

  • I'm much more humble than you would understand.
  • Administrator
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #156 on: July 18, 2023, 10:35:06 AM »
I liked Titan's HULK SMASH moves.
©@©ô

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #157 on: July 18, 2023, 02:03:19 PM »
Hmm, I'll have to mess with Diamond Dust. I saw it was mostly a stagger move and gouge already does craaazy good stagger with a short cooldown so didn't think I needed another stagger skill slot.

I liked Titan's HULK SMASH moves.

I mean, it's fun, but the ground toss Hulk move while a decent grunt AoE killer seemed like shitty boss damage and wasting a long cooldown spot on a low boss damage attack hurt my min/max pride too much to use.

The windup punch is great, fast cooldown, high damage. The AoE one was ok, just never used it much, and the counter one was fun to use a few times but even when you trigger the damage bonus parry on first hit the damage was piddly so wasn't worth the effort.

But actually maybe I'll go back to the quick cooldown AoE attack and add it to Ramuh's AoE Pile Drive for a double grunt killer. Game has a lot of grunts.

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #158 on: July 18, 2023, 02:05:26 PM »
What level are you supposed to do the time trials? I tried the one by Martha's Rest once they unlocked at like lvl.40 and got to the 2nd part (i.e. cleared 1-1, 1-2, 1-3) but had like 15 secs left and ran out of time. I thought I was playing pretty fine and hitting time bonus objectives, so I figure I'm just underleveled and they're like the last things you do in endgame.

Do they even give good loot? Time trials are such a pain in the ass design.

demi

  • cooler than willco
  • Administrator
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #159 on: July 18, 2023, 05:02:56 PM »
Chronoliths are pretty easy, though I did them as the last thing I needed. The loot isnt really worth it. You need to do them all for a thing for Clive's sex dungeon.

The only one I really had issue with was Garuda's because Garuda's moveset is really not that good

As long as you focus on the bonus time perks, you should have plenty of time for the final boss
fat

Rahxephon91

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #160 on: July 18, 2023, 09:41:21 PM »
The time trials are super fun. The only one that suck was Bahumet.

also what are you talking about with Titan. Titan's basic counter and his counter attack melt stagger metters.

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #161 on: July 18, 2023, 09:57:07 PM »
The time trials are super fun. The only one that suck was Bahumet.

also what are you talking about with Titan. Titan's basic counter and his counter attack melt stagger metters.

It locks you into animation if you counter attack. So if the enemy is doing a 3 hit move, you counter perfectly the first hit and start your counter attack and take damage from the 2nd and 3rd hit to do a bit of stagger and damage. Basically any multipart combo you need to wait until the final hit to titan counter attack.

Even single attacks, you can guard counter it but the midboss/boss has moved to another attack while you are locked in the counter attack animation and hits you. The fact the counter attack move has no invincibility frames makes it worthless imo.

Rahxephon91

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #162 on: July 19, 2023, 02:17:06 AM »
eh I guess.

I played with the timely focus accessory(I don't care) so it was easy to use Titans counter for each attack during an enemy's move and then follow up with the attack counter.

My set-up was.

Phoniex-Because I preferred Phoniex Shift above Grauda's ability:

Rising Flames: With a cooldown decreasing accessory as this is always a useful combo attack for me.

Scarlet Cyclone as this was always a useful CC

In a way, I saw Phoniex as my all-rounder/basic opening paradigm ala FFXIII.

Titan-The Once I'm in Close Paradigm

Dancing Steel-With an accessory to increase how much it fills the gauge, this became the best way to fill it, often hitting level 4 and sometimes level 5

Raging Fitsts-When this connects as a counter it melts the stagger.

At first, I also used Gouge and  Grauda for a good portion of the game, but once I realized that using Dancing Steel during that half-stagger window was workable. I passed on using Garuda. And with making Odin usable to me and just wanting to counter, gouge wasn't really worth it.

Odin-The Stagger attack Paradigm
1. Switch To Odin right when they stagger.

2. Ignition to close in quickly.

3. Thunderstorm to get some damage going quickly while you:

  • 3-1.Use Limit Break
    3-2.Use you're charged Zan
    3-3.Limit Break and then Zan


After getting Titan 3rd slot become Grauda, but then once I made Odin fun for me, Odin became my 3rd slot.










« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 03:08:39 AM by Rahxephon91 »

Svejk

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #163 on: July 19, 2023, 11:36:01 AM »
OST released today.  8 discs?!  Howís there so many tracks?  :mindblown Iím only like 45% through, but Iíve heard repeat tracks for different instances already.  Like hearing the same track for when
spoiler (click to show/hide)
fighting Garuda and then again when Cid dies
[close]

The Lion and the Hare track is so dope.. It's as if Hanz Zimmer made a FF track.  :lawd


« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 11:43:26 AM by Svejk »

demi

  • cooler than willco
  • Administrator
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #164 on: July 19, 2023, 12:56:39 PM »
I'm not sure how theres 6 discs either. Felt like I only heard 3 songs the whole game
fat

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #165 on: July 19, 2023, 12:58:33 PM »
Even the jukebox only has like 20-30 tracks...

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #166 on: July 19, 2023, 01:35:45 PM »
Glad everyone is enjoying it.

I saw the FFXVI OST on Apple Music. I'll give it a listen.
FUNK

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #167 on: July 19, 2023, 06:47:33 PM »
This game's really easy to bounce off of and hard to get back into.

Still doing a sidequest or two a day, but the game's kind of boring at endgame and I'm disinterested in the story so not really motivated. Feels almost like work. Probably one of those games that's better if you skipped all the sidequests and just ran the main plot in 30 hours.

I think I'd prefer if this team doesn't do another mainline FF in the future. It's just so aggressively mid. I'd rather have an interesting mess like 15 over this.

Rahxephon91

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #168 on: July 20, 2023, 08:33:42 PM »
spoiler (click to show/hide)
I went into FFXVI pretty cautious about the direction. A lack of a real traditional party felt like a move that was really moving away from core jrpg battle concepts. Compound that with real time action combat that looked more like DMC and a seemingly adoption of western tastes in writing and aesthetics(begone anime pretty boys with emotions) and yeah I was a little cautious. I like jrpgs to be jrpg ass Japanese role playing games and it looked like Square in itís increasing desire to have FF grow bigger was abandoning certain aspects for a western audience.

And you know what? I donít think I was wrong, but that doesnít mean I disliked the game. 100 hours later all side quests complete, all eikon trials complete, all hunts complete, and so on. I can safely say past a round 2 I got a lot out of XVI. Clearly, I did not dislike it, but itís unevenness keeps it from reaching the heights that other FFs do for me. Perhaps, though thatís impossible. FF as a series I think for many fans grabs them at a young age and is a formulating experience for them and it makes it harder for instalments afterwards to match the special feelings those gave. That said, every FF is a special moment, a game that offers an experience like no other.

Now the combat was one of the most worrisome aspects going into the game for me. I like systems in JRPGS. I like crafting a party with specific roles and seeing how the game engages with me. I like finding the point of these systems and utilizing them to my fullest. I like party members, because I just like building a team and seeing what I can do with it. People seem to yell turn based elitist whenever fans donít seem to jive with the real time action. I mean I have no problem with action gameplay, VIIR was fantastic and the direction Iíd like the series to go. Star Ocean 6 was one of my favorite games of last year. But both of those games gave me what I want from jrpgs, which is to ďthinkĒ.

Before people scoff at that, but jrpgs usually give me some thinking behind why Iím having a character in my party, why this weapon, and whatís why and how when it comes to utilizing these systems. It doesnít mean they are some thinking man big brain game, it just means they engage me on a different level then some games. Even if most FF games are piss easy, I still think about what I want to do with my characters and party, they still give me systems I like to engage with. FFXVIís combat system meant to me it was going to go for something else.

But did it give me what I like about jrpgs? Yes and no.

A little ways into the game I noticed that attacks had a stagger and attack rating. I had already felt that the Eikons were meant to have certain utility, more so styles than different weapons. Obviously, Gruadaís gouge is great at weaking stagger gauge, maybe best used after that embrace stagger attack. Or maybe not, maybe Titans block counter is better, the jojo like counterattack sure melts stagger when you use it as a counter. Then you get Odinís attacks and at first I thought trying to fill the Zan guage just isnít worth it. But then you get an accessory that you know boosts steel dancing gauge filling. Then you realize steel dancing basically pauses when it connects. So now to me Odin has become a lot viable. While Grauda is great and all, Iíd rather have Phoenix, Titan, and now Odin. And I decided that because now when I get that half stagger window, I can use steel dancing and the gauge is pretty much full right there. I keep Phoenix because it has a great CC ability and an easy to use combo ability that works in pretty much every situation. Titan is great because the counters deplete stagger fast, and Odin to me worked as a great damage dealer. With Ignition for a good quick start to lead into staggered enemies (or crowd control) and then throw down thunderbolt before you LB/or Hold the Zan button. My friend himself found great use for Ramuhís ability and preferred Grauda over Odin. Really the only one I found lacking was Bahumet, even after the Eikon trials. My point is that I actually think thereís perhaps more rpg to this then people give credit. More nuance to the battle system.

In a way, I started to somewhat see the Ekion selection like the paradigmís of XIII, but based on a more action situation. Phoenix to start off with as a general attacker complete with itís zero in shifting ability and good CC attack. Then shift to Titan when closer to an enemy for counters and Odinís ability that I want to use at a specific window that will most likely happen as Iím closed in. Lastly, Odin himself for my attacks I want to make sure I get in during a staggered phase.

There was thought I put into these decisions. Maybe they werenít the most ďefficientĒ, but they were how I played. I started to think about equipment and how those little bonus would effect. Maybe having Phoenixís CC attack on a shorter cooldown would be worthwhile, it was for Odinís attacks.

At first I wished XVI was a jrpg framed as a DMC game. Later it seemed like they actually did adopt DMC combat to an rpg. And itís fun, everything feels great. But itís not without criticism. Most encounters do feel the same, your kind of are always doing the same thing. If youíre say a FFXIV fan and you really enjoy making sure youíre rotation is done well all the time, this may not bother you. It didnít for me, but I enjoyed always trying to do my best. The grunt battles are extremely thoughtless, but again if you enjoy doing your best it may not bother you. I think this comes down to personal taste, but I think it can be said the combat is very fun and a great entry game into character action.

Boss battles and staggered enemies are where the battle system does really excel, they actually ask you to engage with these systems. Thatís really the problem with XVIís combat, it does not really ask you to engage with it on a deep level. Getting by with really no effort is extremely possible. Which despite what people say, I disagree about that being the norm. Even for 13. The encounter design for 16 I believe is pretty weak, while I have learned to agree that the argument for elemental weakness would maybe limit players freedom, I somewhat also think so what? Itís a jrpg and encounters should maybe force some rethinking.

I also still think the lack of party members is disappointing. Something like Scarlet Nexus does party members better and could have been an influence. Maybe there are elemental weaknesses, but if you chose the party member that has the Ekion of water it buffs and negates these things. I donít know, just something. Speaking of the Eikons, I kind of donít care for their battles. Yeah, the spectacle is there, but in the end they are kind of what I expected. It often really feels like you really donít have any impact in them. Whatever progression or choices youíve made are irrelevant. Just keep attacking with what weíve given until they are dead. These numbers are for show, nothing youíve done would really change how easy or hard this battle is. On repeats they will lose their luster.

One thing that I really think lost its luster quick was the general quest design of XVI. The sad part of XVI is for all Yoshi Pís talk about feeling like a roller coaster, it sure didnít. If anything, it reminded me of XIV. Honestly to me XIV is boring outside of dungeons. Every zone feels the same. New zone, do a bunch of tedious quests that talk about the zone, story starts building again, dungeon/Primal time, and repeat. Its like this in XVi, you go to a new zone and have to deal with tedious quests and then the pacing restarts for exciting things. In general the game has I feel weak momentum, it lacks those exciting story moments like in X where your on the airship, then you have the boss battle with the red carpet, then Beveille, then some rest, and then shift where you control Yuna. Things that feel like good paced story and gameplay moments. XVI really lacks these coalescing of memorable story and gameplay moments. Everything feels very structured and segmented thanks to the quest design. It does not feel like a constant seamless cinematic adventure, nor does it feel like a journey thanks to the hub design. If thereís anything it took from GoT, itís the instant travel from season 8.

So that kind of sucks to me and while I think the hub design helps in the sense of community that the game is strong in, it does make the world feel small. It does add to the world feeling like a level select world. In XII all the zones are connected, you must walk to most of them first, and so on. When its time to go Mt. Bur Ominse you can talk there and it feels like an actual journey. XVI misses these feelings. Hell, there are parts of the world that seem like they should connect, and they donít. The first warning sign of course was ďJourney with Cid to the HideawayĒ and instead of a set-piece moment where you trek through the world and Cid talks to you giving you more worldbuilding, you instead open a menu and thatís that.

So much of XVI feels like CBU3 maybe doesnít understand what a single player jrpg should be like. How you should pace them, how you should make the adventure feel. The level design of the world is fine on paper, but it has no good allusion to it. People dislike XIII because it fails at this. X on the other hand is just as linear and yet this problem doesnít exist, because that game does many things to make it feel like you are traveling a world. The pacing, the scale of the world, and so on. XVI fails at that.

Like the structure, the side quests are kind of mmoy, but I will say plenty of hem provide interesting context which is an upgrade from a lot of jrpgs. Few are exciting in a gameplay way. Some are less exciting in a story way, but some complete whole character and/or town story arcs. The plus ones do have worthwhile rewards, but in general the equipment crafting and whatnot is simply there.

Some of this sounds uneven and well I mostly think the game is uneven. Plenty good, but also plenty bad or just dated. In general, I donít think the game 100% takes FF to the next level. That applies to the story as well.

I like Clive, he is a personable character. He has an interesting character arc. Having great promise, and then finding himself with a purpose, and then maturing into someone who has purpose and a goal in life. Itís relatable, but also kind of stops halfway and then kind of becomes him banging the same drum.

I already think the story lacks exciting momentum, losing it after Cidís death.

Before Cids death you had a lot of momentum complete with an ok arc for Benditka. I know people have some issues with her depiction in regards to how women are depicted. They have their points, but Im not as interested. Though I do think the women are weak in this game as Jill is a wet blanket. It became pretty clear to me that the Dominants would basically be arcs to themselves, which makes sense if youíre trying to structure a story. But Ben feels the most realized. It comes at a time where the story is really starting to get going. Her arrival brings interesting intrigue, but also a good first examination on the storyís themes. To me we see through her how a Dominant effects a person and how because of her connections to people being damaged she becomes a more cold walled off person, tying her being to her power. When she loses it, it becomes a terrible force. This is all decent first heavy stuff, its even well-paced with some nice linear map design.

And then the game kind of starts to falter.

ďWeíre going to sneak into the city to destroy our first crystalĒ

ďSneaking happens off-screenĒ and we never go to this city we keep hearing about. In fact we donít really go to any of these cities the game constantly talks about. Adding to the ill-feeling of the world.

Then we flash forward and weíre with a more well realized Clive and the arc we are in is the Hugo arc and itís not compelling. Because honestly, what nuance is there to Hugo. Heís angry about a relationship we really did not feel or see outside of one cutscene. One that I feel we are mostly left with the feeling of her kind of using him. But we donít really delve into what Hugo feels or what drives him beyond being angry. I guess that fits into the themes of how our connections with people shape us, and in his case it leads him into fury, but Iím unsure if makes for interesting storytelling the way itís presented. And how it connects to Ultimaís overarching goal I am less enthused.

Then we have Dion and again, Iím less enthused. We never saw when his father was a decent man and we also donít get a good take on how Annabelle(maybe actually Ultima) is really influencing beyond heís bad. But to what ends?

Which ties into this gameís problems. For all the Game of Thrones talk, it amounts to nothing. The maclhations of these states and whatnot in the end feel like whatever. They have so little to do with the actual plot that Iíd rather the game just embrace the jrpgness and get to the Ultima stuff faster. The conflict between them feels distant and I guess that leads me to caring about Dion less, because whatís going on is his kingdom is whatever. A lot of this story is about Climate Change and maybe Sanbreqe is the America equivalent here, but thereís not a lot of commentary that could help push that. I just think it failed to really connect with me. It does not help that Anabelle feels like Cersi without any of the interesting elements. Just a villain for the sake of it and poorly written. Is her motivation to keep her bloodline pure, but she also props up her clearly infantile son? Who was never real maybe? Itís just not well done and so a lot of this arc falls flat for me.

Not as flat as Banabras whose nihilism perhaps serves as maybe an interesting mirror to Clive, but lacks a real punch after all the build up. The War of the Ekions does not feel like this war of philosophies and motivations symbolized by powerful characters, instead isolated episodic episodes that feel often undercooked.

Maybe not us undercooked as Ultima. We arrived a point where Ultima started to explain his backstory, I thought we were going to experience a Shadowbringerís tier backstory dungeon. Hey, itís worked twice there. I wish thatís what happened. Iím sure much has been said about Ultima and I think his problems kind of symbolize a lot of what the problems XVIís story is. I donít think it makes strong enough connections and explorations of itís themes, which is rather ironic about of a s tory about connections.

Ultima is also driven by his connections. His goal is to bring back his own people, so he must be experiencing a great loss. Unlike Clive though heís taken this task all on his own and formed a god complex. His problem is seeing humans as tools, just like people see the bearers and that is his weakness. I also found it interesting how he seems to use peopleís connections against them, perverting them. Using their images against them.

But I also think the game does a poor job laying out exactly the mechanics and themes.

It starts off with these nation sates and whatnot, but in the end the conflicts of them are rather irrelevant.

Thereís thematic elements with the slavery aspect and I would say in the end itís better then who say a Tales game would handle it, but there doesnít seem to be some really impactful connection to Ultima and the main plot. Like what I mean is that in FFX, pretty much all the world building ties into the plot on a surface and thematic level.

Yu Yeveon is a religion of death, even the masters are dead and clinging unto an everlasting cycle, as is the manifestation of this the theme, the villain itself.

But either way, it canít be said I didnít enjoy the game. And maybe a playthrough that avoids the most of the sidequest will create a more faster paced and eventful feeling game. The fact that Iím already interested in a replay I think says it all.
[close]

Coax

  • Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #169 on: July 21, 2023, 04:13:18 AM »
:lucas

Fortus

  • Junior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #170 on: July 21, 2023, 01:02:08 PM »
Give Final Fantasy Mode a shot Rahx. I'm a bit OCD and didn't skip any sidequests but I did skip all the cutscenes and that helped the pacing quite a bit. It won't address some of your valid criticism but I found myself really enjoying it. Game doesn't merit the hyperbole, good or bad imo, but that's the price of being a mainline FF I guess
pie

Svejk

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #171 on: July 23, 2023, 01:38:40 PM »
Finally feel like I'm hitting another ramping up of this rollercoaster. 
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Just destroyed the fire mother crystal and got spiked in the feels on Jill's Father scene.  :leon :whoo
[close]
These high moments are fantastic. I'm fearing the last fat padding of side quest that's coming the second half, but i may skip some.  I think I've skipped one already back before a point of no return, so it doesn't matter.  Not trophy hunting or anything. 

Meant to ask anyone; Graphics or Performance mode? 
I've been playing Graphics since the beginning, but get tempted to change it up, but just convince myself to stick with it.

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #172 on: July 23, 2023, 03:35:17 PM »
spoiler (click to show/hide)
I went into FFXVI pretty cautious about the direction. A lack of a real traditional party felt like a move that was really moving away from core jrpg battle concepts. Compound that with real time action combat that looked more like DMC and a seemingly adoption of western tastes in writing and aesthetics(begone anime pretty boys with emotions) and yeah I was a little cautious. I like jrpgs to be jrpg ass Japanese role playing games and it looked like Square in itís increasing desire to have FF grow bigger was abandoning certain aspects for a western audience.

And you know what? I donít think I was wrong, but that doesnít mean I disliked the game. 100 hours later all side quests complete, all eikon trials complete, all hunts complete, and so on. I can safely say past a round 2 I got a lot out of XVI. Clearly, I did not dislike it, but itís unevenness keeps it from reaching the heights that other FFs do for me. Perhaps, though thatís impossible. FF as a series I think for many fans grabs them at a young age and is a formulating experience for them and it makes it harder for instalments afterwards to match the special feelings those gave. That said, every FF is a special moment, a game that offers an experience like no other.

Now the combat was one of the most worrisome aspects going into the game for me. I like systems in JRPGS. I like crafting a party with specific roles and seeing how the game engages with me. I like finding the point of these systems and utilizing them to my fullest. I like party members, because I just like building a team and seeing what I can do with it. People seem to yell turn based elitist whenever fans donít seem to jive with the real time action. I mean I have no problem with action gameplay, VIIR was fantastic and the direction Iíd like the series to go. Star Ocean 6 was one of my favorite games of last year. But both of those games gave me what I want from jrpgs, which is to ďthinkĒ.

Before people scoff at that, but jrpgs usually give me some thinking behind why Iím having a character in my party, why this weapon, and whatís why and how when it comes to utilizing these systems. It doesnít mean they are some thinking man big brain game, it just means they engage me on a different level then some games. Even if most FF games are piss easy, I still think about what I want to do with my characters and party, they still give me systems I like to engage with. FFXVIís combat system meant to me it was going to go for something else.

But did it give me what I like about jrpgs? Yes and no.

A little ways into the game I noticed that attacks had a stagger and attack rating. I had already felt that the Eikons were meant to have certain utility, more so styles than different weapons. Obviously, Gruadaís gouge is great at weaking stagger gauge, maybe best used after that embrace stagger attack. Or maybe not, maybe Titans block counter is better, the jojo like counterattack sure melts stagger when you use it as a counter. Then you get Odinís attacks and at first I thought trying to fill the Zan guage just isnít worth it. But then you get an accessory that you know boosts steel dancing gauge filling. Then you realize steel dancing basically pauses when it connects. So now to me Odin has become a lot viable. While Grauda is great and all, Iíd rather have Phoenix, Titan, and now Odin. And I decided that because now when I get that half stagger window, I can use steel dancing and the gauge is pretty much full right there. I keep Phoenix because it has a great CC ability and an easy to use combo ability that works in pretty much every situation. Titan is great because the counters deplete stagger fast, and Odin to me worked as a great damage dealer. With Ignition for a good quick start to lead into staggered enemies (or crowd control) and then throw down thunderbolt before you LB/or Hold the Zan button. My friend himself found great use for Ramuhís ability and preferred Grauda over Odin. Really the only one I found lacking was Bahumet, even after the Eikon trials. My point is that I actually think thereís perhaps more rpg to this then people give credit. More nuance to the battle system.

In a way, I started to somewhat see the Ekion selection like the paradigmís of XIII, but based on a more action situation. Phoenix to start off with as a general attacker complete with itís zero in shifting ability and good CC attack. Then shift to Titan when closer to an enemy for counters and Odinís ability that I want to use at a specific window that will most likely happen as Iím closed in. Lastly, Odin himself for my attacks I want to make sure I get in during a staggered phase.

There was thought I put into these decisions. Maybe they werenít the most ďefficientĒ, but they were how I played. I started to think about equipment and how those little bonus would effect. Maybe having Phoenixís CC attack on a shorter cooldown would be worthwhile, it was for Odinís attacks.

At first I wished XVI was a jrpg framed as a DMC game. Later it seemed like they actually did adopt DMC combat to an rpg. And itís fun, everything feels great. But itís not without criticism. Most encounters do feel the same, your kind of are always doing the same thing. If youíre say a FFXIV fan and you really enjoy making sure youíre rotation is done well all the time, this may not bother you. It didnít for me, but I enjoyed always trying to do my best. The grunt battles are extremely thoughtless, but again if you enjoy doing your best it may not bother you. I think this comes down to personal taste, but I think it can be said the combat is very fun and a great entry game into character action.

Boss battles and staggered enemies are where the battle system does really excel, they actually ask you to engage with these systems. Thatís really the problem with XVIís combat, it does not really ask you to engage with it on a deep level. Getting by with really no effort is extremely possible. Which despite what people say, I disagree about that being the norm. Even for 13. The encounter design for 16 I believe is pretty weak, while I have learned to agree that the argument for elemental weakness would maybe limit players freedom, I somewhat also think so what? Itís a jrpg and encounters should maybe force some rethinking.

I also still think the lack of party members is disappointing. Something like Scarlet Nexus does party members better and could have been an influence. Maybe there are elemental weaknesses, but if you chose the party member that has the Ekion of water it buffs and negates these things. I donít know, just something. Speaking of the Eikons, I kind of donít care for their battles. Yeah, the spectacle is there, but in the end they are kind of what I expected. It often really feels like you really donít have any impact in them. Whatever progression or choices youíve made are irrelevant. Just keep attacking with what weíve given until they are dead. These numbers are for show, nothing youíve done would really change how easy or hard this battle is. On repeats they will lose their luster.

One thing that I really think lost its luster quick was the general quest design of XVI. The sad part of XVI is for all Yoshi Pís talk about feeling like a roller coaster, it sure didnít. If anything, it reminded me of XIV. Honestly to me XIV is boring outside of dungeons. Every zone feels the same. New zone, do a bunch of tedious quests that talk about the zone, story starts building again, dungeon/Primal time, and repeat. Its like this in XVi, you go to a new zone and have to deal with tedious quests and then the pacing restarts for exciting things. In general the game has I feel weak momentum, it lacks those exciting story moments like in X where your on the airship, then you have the boss battle with the red carpet, then Beveille, then some rest, and then shift where you control Yuna. Things that feel like good paced story and gameplay moments. XVI really lacks these coalescing of memorable story and gameplay moments. Everything feels very structured and segmented thanks to the quest design. It does not feel like a constant seamless cinematic adventure, nor does it feel like a journey thanks to the hub design. If thereís anything it took from GoT, itís the instant travel from season 8.

So that kind of sucks to me and while I think the hub design helps in the sense of community that the game is strong in, it does make the world feel small. It does add to the world feeling like a level select world. In XII all the zones are connected, you must walk to most of them first, and so on. When its time to go Mt. Bur Ominse you can talk there and it feels like an actual journey. XVI misses these feelings. Hell, there are parts of the world that seem like they should connect, and they donít. The first warning sign of course was ďJourney with Cid to the HideawayĒ and instead of a set-piece moment where you trek through the world and Cid talks to you giving you more worldbuilding, you instead open a menu and thatís that.

So much of XVI feels like CBU3 maybe doesnít understand what a single player jrpg should be like. How you should pace them, how you should make the adventure feel. The level design of the world is fine on paper, but it has no good allusion to it. People dislike XIII because it fails at this. X on the other hand is just as linear and yet this problem doesnít exist, because that game does many things to make it feel like you are traveling a world. The pacing, the scale of the world, and so on. XVI fails at that.

Like the structure, the side quests are kind of mmoy, but I will say plenty of hem provide interesting context which is an upgrade from a lot of jrpgs. Few are exciting in a gameplay way. Some are less exciting in a story way, but some complete whole character and/or town story arcs. The plus ones do have worthwhile rewards, but in general the equipment crafting and whatnot is simply there.

Some of this sounds uneven and well I mostly think the game is uneven. Plenty good, but also plenty bad or just dated. In general, I donít think the game 100% takes FF to the next level. That applies to the story as well.

I like Clive, he is a personable character. He has an interesting character arc. Having great promise, and then finding himself with a purpose, and then maturing into someone who has purpose and a goal in life. Itís relatable, but also kind of stops halfway and then kind of becomes him banging the same drum.

I already think the story lacks exciting momentum, losing it after Cidís death.

Before Cids death you had a lot of momentum complete with an ok arc for Benditka. I know people have some issues with her depiction in regards to how women are depicted. They have their points, but Im not as interested. Though I do think the women are weak in this game as Jill is a wet blanket. It became pretty clear to me that the Dominants would basically be arcs to themselves, which makes sense if youíre trying to structure a story. But Ben feels the most realized. It comes at a time where the story is really starting to get going. Her arrival brings interesting intrigue, but also a good first examination on the storyís themes. To me we see through her how a Dominant effects a person and how because of her connections to people being damaged she becomes a more cold walled off person, tying her being to her power. When she loses it, it becomes a terrible force. This is all decent first heavy stuff, its even well-paced with some nice linear map design.

And then the game kind of starts to falter.

ďWeíre going to sneak into the city to destroy our first crystalĒ

ďSneaking happens off-screenĒ and we never go to this city we keep hearing about. In fact we donít really go to any of these cities the game constantly talks about. Adding to the ill-feeling of the world.

Then we flash forward and weíre with a more well realized Clive and the arc we are in is the Hugo arc and itís not compelling. Because honestly, what nuance is there to Hugo. Heís angry about a relationship we really did not feel or see outside of one cutscene. One that I feel we are mostly left with the feeling of her kind of using him. But we donít really delve into what Hugo feels or what drives him beyond being angry. I guess that fits into the themes of how our connections with people shape us, and in his case it leads him into fury, but Iím unsure if makes for interesting storytelling the way itís presented. And how it connects to Ultimaís overarching goal I am less enthused.

Then we have Dion and again, Iím less enthused. We never saw when his father was a decent man and we also donít get a good take on how Annabelle(maybe actually Ultima) is really influencing beyond heís bad. But to what ends?

Which ties into this gameís problems. For all the Game of Thrones talk, it amounts to nothing. The maclhations of these states and whatnot in the end feel like whatever. They have so little to do with the actual plot that Iíd rather the game just embrace the jrpgness and get to the Ultima stuff faster. The conflict between them feels distant and I guess that leads me to caring about Dion less, because whatís going on is his kingdom is whatever. A lot of this story is about Climate Change and maybe Sanbreqe is the America equivalent here, but thereís not a lot of commentary that could help push that. I just think it failed to really connect with me. It does not help that Anabelle feels like Cersi without any of the interesting elements. Just a villain for the sake of it and poorly written. Is her motivation to keep her bloodline pure, but she also props up her clearly infantile son? Who was never real maybe? Itís just not well done and so a lot of this arc falls flat for me.

Not as flat as Banabras whose nihilism perhaps serves as maybe an interesting mirror to Clive, but lacks a real punch after all the build up. The War of the Ekions does not feel like this war of philosophies and motivations symbolized by powerful characters, instead isolated episodic episodes that feel often undercooked.

Maybe not us undercooked as Ultima. We arrived a point where Ultima started to explain his backstory, I thought we were going to experience a Shadowbringerís tier backstory dungeon. Hey, itís worked twice there. I wish thatís what happened. Iím sure much has been said about Ultima and I think his problems kind of symbolize a lot of what the problems XVIís story is. I donít think it makes strong enough connections and explorations of itís themes, which is rather ironic about of a s tory about connections.

Ultima is also driven by his connections. His goal is to bring back his own people, so he must be experiencing a great loss. Unlike Clive though heís taken this task all on his own and formed a god complex. His problem is seeing humans as tools, just like people see the bearers and that is his weakness. I also found it interesting how he seems to use peopleís connections against them, perverting them. Using their images against them.

But I also think the game does a poor job laying out exactly the mechanics and themes.

It starts off with these nation sates and whatnot, but in the end the conflicts of them are rather irrelevant.

Thereís thematic elements with the slavery aspect and I would say in the end itís better then who say a Tales game would handle it, but there doesnít seem to be some really impactful connection to Ultima and the main plot. Like what I mean is that in FFX, pretty much all the world building ties into the plot on a surface and thematic level.

Yu Yeveon is a religion of death, even the masters are dead and clinging unto an everlasting cycle, as is the manifestation of this the theme, the villain itself.

But either way, it canít be said I didnít enjoy the game. And maybe a playthrough that avoids the most of the sidequest will create a more faster paced and eventful feeling game. The fact that Iím already interested in a replay I think says it all.
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I only read some of this 'cause don't want to spoil the ending story stuff, but 100 hours??

Howlongtobeat say doing game + all side content = 55 hours and I'm ~50 hours in and feel like I'm in endgame (Ash).

If there's another 50 hours of game/content I'm never going to finish this. I thought I could push through the end in the next week forcing myself to play an hour or so a day.

If there's a shitload of side content left, maybe I'll just bail on side stuff entirely from this point and just finish the main story and shelve it.

Every time I pick this up I feel like it's the most dull unmotivating rpg to play since DQ7. I don't think it's a bad game. I still think it's about an 8/10, but just personally Barnabas/Odin ruined the game for me. Everything through

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Bahamut
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Was pretty exciting, but Barnabas is such a nonsense overpowered underdeveloped loser character full of magical story deus ex machina BS to get around his power level that it's made the story a complete bore and I don't care about anyone or anything anymore. At least prior to this there were some interesting characters, but now there's just

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Barnabas and Ultima
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Who are the two most dull characters in the entire story.

Honestly feels like FFXII all over again where the game just falls apart in the last act. The only thing I enjoy in the game anymore is when I fight a new boss with new attack patterns to learn. Everything else is zzzzzzzzzzz

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #173 on: July 23, 2023, 03:39:00 PM »
I also want to add how 90% of the hunts fucking suck because they are just enemies you've already fought with the same move sets. Just giving them more HP or damage doesn't change the fight if you've already learned how to dodge and counter all their attacks from fighting the same enemies in the past.

Imo, pretty much all the grunt combat in this game sucks and is unfun after a while because it's so shallow. The midbosses/bosses where you need to actually dodge are fun, but there's so much repetition it kind of kills it. Which makes sense when you're stretching this out 50+ hours like an rpg length.

If this was a 15-20 hour action game like Dmc/Bayo with this amount of enemies and their moves to learn it'd be more than what's needed and a much better game.

demi

  • cooler than willco
  • Administrator
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #174 on: July 23, 2023, 10:00:04 PM »
its insane what a visual powerhouse the final fight is. what a masterpiece. just watching it again gets me so hype. zelda TOTK could learn [many] things from it
fat

Rahxephon91

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #175 on: July 23, 2023, 10:27:49 PM »
I mean I don't know if it's exactly 100 hours, thats just what the PS5 clock says. There is no in-game clock. But I believe it, because I did feel like I was playing for a long time with all the good and ill that implies.

Either way, sometimes yeah it was a slog. Yeah I gotta agree that having what is basically a character action game be stretched thin kind of is a flaw. But still, I really enjoyed the game in the end. I don't look back at it with negative views.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #176 on: July 24, 2023, 01:35:38 AM »
Great review, Rah Buddy.
FUNK

Pissy F Benny

  • Is down with the sickness
  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #177 on: July 24, 2023, 04:19:35 PM »
Have to agree with Barnabas being a bit shit, and he has my least fav current jrpg trope, the psych out boss fight where you get yourass whipped in the following cut scene :nope

The other villians were characters with motivations you could understand, he's just some tit talking vague jibberish about consciousness
(ice)

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #178 on: July 25, 2023, 02:46:52 AM »
Also want to talk about how pointless the zones are and why I just run through them on my chocobo instead of exploring.

...because there's nothing to explore. They spent all this money handcrafting these large zones without a single thing to do in them except fight normal enemies. And since this entire game I've never needed a normal enemy drop for any crafting, there's zero reason to even fight them.

Yeah, eventually they use some of the map for hunt spawns or sidequests, but it's crazy how there's like nothing to explore and find in these large zones.


And separate nitpick, but now that I'm at the end, the game is visually too drab. Occasionally there's some color like the Iron Island exterior and the art direction is top notch regardless, but for a fantasy game or rpg, the lack of pretty environments is a downer. Dead empty towns are zzz.

Bebpo

  • Senior Member
Re: FINAL FANTASY SIXTEEN
« Reply #179 on: July 25, 2023, 05:38:05 PM »
Another nitpick is how silly some of the insertions of classic FF melodies are in the game.

Like we've got these hyper realistic blood stained individuals going RAH RAH LETS GO BEAT UP SOME BADSSS and it starts playing the FF prelude theme and it's just...  :rofl 

I appreciate the nods like the boss/midboss battle theme arrangements, but sometimes stuff like that just does not fit the gritty real style at all.