Author Topic: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics  (Read 1830996 times)

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Rman

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #360 on: January 27, 2009, 01:53:50 AM »
So what do you guys think of Bam's stimulus plan? House republican leaders have already expressed their objections, wanting more tax cuts and such.  I mean, really.  Tax cuts in these times, when two wars are being waged, and the Treasury is bailing out  companies to the tune of billions of dollars.  Does the GOP believe that the federal government operates on monopoly money?

Fragamemnon

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #361 on: January 27, 2009, 01:58:48 AM »
Tax Cuts won't work. House Republicans aren't making arguments against the stimulus in good faith and House Dems should ram it through on a party line vote instead of letting Boehner's idiot brigade anywhere near the bill. If it is too partisan let the senate fix it.
hex

Rman

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #362 on: January 27, 2009, 02:05:36 AM »
Tax Cuts won't work. House Republicans aren't making arguments against the stimulus in good faith and House Dems should ram it through on a party line vote instead of letting Boehner's idiot brigade anywhere near the bill. If it is too partisan let the senate fix it.
I was just surprised at Boehner's audacity.  The GOP was spanked last November, and we have newly elected President whose first week poll numbers rival JFK, and yet he still wants to bring up policies that American populace has no appetite for in these turbulent economic times. 

McCain--LOL--also mentioned how he wanted to make the Bush cuts permanent, echoing another failed talking point--trickle down economics--from his unsuccessful presidential bid.  I mean these are senior GOP leaders of Congress.  It's amazing how out of touch their party is with middle class priorities.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 02:07:25 AM by Rman »

Phoenix Dark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #363 on: January 27, 2009, 02:09:52 AM »
Frag/Mandark/etc, do you like the stimulus? Does it seem like there's an excess of stuff that should maybe be in another type of bill? I'm not done going over it

on tax cuts: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/26/opinion/26krugman.html?em
010

Rman

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #364 on: January 27, 2009, 02:12:22 AM »
Frag/Mandark/etc, do you like the stimulus? Does it seem like there's an excess of stuff that should maybe be in another type of bill? I'm not done going over it

on tax cuts: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/26/opinion/26krugman.html?em
LOL @ "I won". I love that.

Eric P

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #365 on: January 27, 2009, 09:09:12 AM »
Quote
But because of abortion and aging, the white vote is shrinking as a share of the national vote and the population.

because of what now?
Tonya

ToxicAdam

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #366 on: January 27, 2009, 09:12:13 AM »
So what do you guys think of Bam's stimulus plan? House republican leaders have already expressed their objections, wanting more tax cuts and such.  I mean, really. 
Well, the idea of a "stimulus" is to infuse money into the economy as quickly (and efficiently) as possible. Tax cuts (while not a perfect solution) are the quickest and most effective way to get money back into the hands of working people.

 
Quote
One of the worst things for conservatives is that many of their bread and butter arguments aren't effective anymore, well at least not right now.
The scale of everthing is out of wack. The enormity of the bailouts have dwarfed any kind of spending program that the Dems have proposed in recent history. So, its kind of
laughable to complain about spending.

because of what now?
Abortions are disproportionately killing future Republicans.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 09:14:35 AM by ToxicAdam »

Rman

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #367 on: January 27, 2009, 10:27:06 AM »
The stimulus plan does include tax cuts, mostly for the middle class.  I'm not against tax cuts as whole; I just feel some GOP leaders can become very myopic on the issue.  The Obama adminstration has even talked about temporarily extending the Bush cuts, which disproportionately benefited the top 5 percent earners.

Brehvolution

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #368 on: January 27, 2009, 10:30:31 AM »
The stimulus plan does include tax cuts, mostly for the middle class.  I'm not against tax cuts as whole; I just feel some GOP leaders can become very myopic on the issue.  The Obama adminstration has even talked about temporarily extending the Bush cuts, which disproportionately benefited the top 5 percent earners.

You may already know this, but the GOP openly doesn't give a shit about the middle class. They view any extra benefits given to the middle class as socialism but what they really mean is the rich are not making as much.
©ZH

Tauntaun

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #369 on: January 27, 2009, 10:54:31 AM »
So where's my free monay?   >:(  I may not technically BE black but I FEEL black....in my penis.   :-* 
:)

ToxicAdam

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #370 on: January 27, 2009, 11:05:07 AM »
Quote
but the GOP openly doesn't give a shit about the middle class


Republicans hate small business?

Eric P

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #371 on: January 27, 2009, 11:08:58 AM »
because of what now?
Abortions are disproportionately killing future Republicans.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/mapstatesabrate.html

wow.

I honestly don't really think about abortion a lot so i had no idea what i'd find if i went looking.  if the data from 85 is accurate then abortion is going down?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 11:10:42 AM by Eric P »
Tonya

Brehvolution

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #372 on: January 27, 2009, 11:14:50 AM »
Quote
but the GOP openly doesn't give a shit about the middle class


Republicans hate small business?


Is the owner a millionaire?
©ZH

CajoleJuice

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #373 on: January 27, 2009, 11:17:17 AM »
Looks like abortions are disproportionally killing New Yorkers to me.
AMC

Phoenix Dark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #374 on: January 27, 2009, 11:18:03 AM »
Quote
Stating the Obvious

I hear a lot of talk about whether Obama's governing approach can be 'bipartisan' if good number of Republicans don't vote for his Stimulus Bill. But that dubious point seems to be obscuring a more obvious and telling reality: that the Republican leadership in both houses has decided that it's in their political interest to oppose the Stimulus Bill no matter what.

In the most cynical of evaluations, it's not clear to me that they're incorrect. If the stimulus is judged a success, their political gain from adding more votes to what will be seen as Obama's bill will not be that great. So they're figuring that only failure will work for them politically and judge that they want Obama to own it entirely.

One can pick apart the political ethics of their stand, but the reality of it is clear. They want to criticize as many provisions of the bill as possible, push for as many non-stimulus inducing tax cuts as possible at the expense of spending on infrastructure, and then vote against the final bill en masse. I think it's possible Obama will get a smattering of moderate Republicans in the senate. But that is Boehner/McConnell approach -- and the one few if any reporters seem to have the wherewithal to say out loud.

--Josh Marshall
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/
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Brehvolution

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #375 on: January 27, 2009, 11:29:00 AM »
Quote
In the most cynical of evaluations, it's not clear to me that they're incorrect. If the stimulus is judged a success, their political gain from adding more votes to what will be seen as Obama's bill will not be that great. So they're figuring that only failure will work for them politically and judge that they want Obama to own it entirely.
  :american

I guess I can remove my tinfoil hat now.
©ZH

Phoenix Dark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #376 on: January 27, 2009, 11:38:57 AM »
I think I found out where Triumph is hiding lately

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/01/mcconnell-republicans-are-more-in-line-with-obama-than-dems.php
Comments section. Check out Steve LaBonne ha

This reminds me of the team of rivals backlash among some people who said hiring Clinton was a bad move since she'd be a huge loyalty problem and blah blah blah. If Obama believed that he wouldn't have hired her, regardless of the team of rivals idea; he hired who he thought was the best candidate, not who fit the team of rivals specs.

Same here, at least I hope think. His advisers are probably telling him this very moment that tax cuts won't work. He knows they won't work. So if anything this mating dance is being done just so he can honestly say he tried to work with the GOP, but they fucked it up. He's not going to let his love of bipartisanship cloud his vision of what will work, and more importantly he's not going to risk his first huge piece of legislation being a failure/ruining his presidency/etc just so he can get 4 republicans to vote with him.
010

siamesedreamer

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #377 on: January 27, 2009, 11:59:21 AM »
So what do you guys think of Bam's stimulus plan?

Its a complete joke and could quite possibly seal his fate as a one-termer. But, its also a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

I understand that he has to make it as pretty as possible to sell it, but the idea that it will create 4 million jobs by the end of 2010 is absolutely lolz-worthy. I've done a lot of research on this. Many economists feel we may very well be on the verge of a Japan 90s-style economy for years to come. We'll probably begin to come out of this by the end of the year or early next year, but growth will be so weak it will still feel like a recession. And remember, job growth is always a lagging indicator. It took about two years after each of the last two recessions to finally see job growth (not to mention the economy has to average ~125k new jobs per month to keep up with population growth). Those recessions were very mild compared to this one. Even Obama's own rosey-colored report shows the unemployment rate higher in 2012 than right now. There's just too much debt in the system for things to recover so quickly (~350% of GDP). Another wave of subprime mortgage resets just as potent as the one going on now will hit next year and go through 2011. Taxes will have to go up to pay for the deficits and the much higher carrying costs. People expecting a return to anything remotely resembling a 97-07 type economy are delusional.  

For the REPs, I suspect the vote on this bill could be the REP version of the DEM Iraq War vote in coming elections.

ToxicAdam

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #378 on: January 27, 2009, 12:06:13 PM »
if the data from 85 is accurate then abortion is going down?

Yea, I don't get into abortion debates. But one of the interesting facts is that the rate of abortion is trending downwards overall.

Eric P

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #379 on: January 27, 2009, 12:16:12 PM »
if the data from 85 is accurate then abortion is going down?

Yea, I don't get into abortion debates. But one of the interesting facts is that the rate of abortion is trending downwards overall.

well i went looking just to see if there were more abortions in "white" areas but that didn't seem to be the case

Tonya

Cheebs

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #380 on: January 27, 2009, 12:38:55 PM »
Anyone who thinks the GOP are "tricking" Obama by trying to take everything they can out of the stimulus package and then voting against it anyway to doom it so they democrats are blamed for the economy are crazy.

Do those guys at TPM really think Obama  (and Rahm Emanual &  Biden, both heavily involved in these talks and know the ways of congress) may have thought of this? Only 1-2 blog posters discovered that the GOP is tricking Obama?

 It's ludicrous. Obama and his crew know what they are doing with the GOP, they aren't that stupid.

ToxicAdam

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #381 on: January 27, 2009, 12:47:25 PM »

well i went looking just to see if there were more abortions in "white" areas but that didn't seem to be the case


Well, I was being sarcastic with that remark. But, you could probably make a good "real world" case either way on which type of group would have abortions.


siamesedreamer

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #382 on: January 27, 2009, 12:54:43 PM »
Politico is reporting the house GOP is set to walk away from the negotiating table.

Cheebs

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #383 on: January 27, 2009, 12:56:50 PM »
 :lol

The senate republicans are still somewhat on board right?

TakingBackSunday

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #384 on: January 27, 2009, 12:57:47 PM »
le sigh
püp

Brehvolution

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #385 on: January 27, 2009, 12:58:07 PM »
Repubs want Bush's tax cuts made permanent. Which effectively kills Obama's tax plan he campaigned on.
©ZH

Brehvolution

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #386 on: January 27, 2009, 12:58:40 PM »
Politico is reporting the house GOP is set to walk away from the negotiating table.
They should lock the door after they leave.
©ZH

Cheebs

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #387 on: January 27, 2009, 01:02:31 PM »
Being the party of "NO!" won't get them anywhere. People won't vote for a party with no ideas and just says no to the other sides policy, which is what the Republican party is right now.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #388 on: January 27, 2009, 01:07:56 PM »
They're walking away? Fine, do the stimulus correctly then. Obama took out the family planning money for them, he took their ideas on tax cuts, etc yet they refuse to cooperate.
010

Eric P

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #389 on: January 27, 2009, 01:10:24 PM »
They're walking away? Fine, do the stimulus correctly then. Obama took out the family planning money for them, he took their ideas on tax cuts, etc yet they refuse to cooperate.

he's being TOO cooperative

Tonya

Brehvolution

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #390 on: January 27, 2009, 01:15:35 PM »
They're walking away? Fine, do the stimulus correctly then. Obama took out the family planning money for them, he took their ideas on tax cuts, etc yet they refuse to cooperate.
He is not doing enough to help the wealthy.
©ZH

Phoenix Dark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #391 on: January 27, 2009, 01:16:37 PM »
Now it's time to pull the rug and assert some toughness. Obama should treat this first challenge like the first night in jail. You either fuck someone up hard to send a message or become someone's bitch
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Fragamemnon

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #392 on: January 27, 2009, 01:16:53 PM »
he's being way too cooperative, agreed.  There's bigger political risk opposing the stimulus than there is supporting it given the disastrous economic news these days.

Do the stimulus without their shit and call their bluff.
hex

Rman

  • Senior Member
Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #393 on: January 27, 2009, 01:18:03 PM »
So what do you guys think of Bam's stimulus plan?

Its a complete joke and could quite possibly seal his fate as a one-termer. But, its also a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

I understand that he has to make it as pretty as possible to sell it, but the idea that it will create 4 million jobs by the end of 2010 is absolutely lolz-worthy. I've done a lot of research on this. Many economists feel we may very well be on the verge of a Japan 90s-style economy for years to come. We'll probably begin to come out of this by the end of the year or early next year, but growth will be so weak it will still feel like a recession. And remember, job growth is always a lagging indicator. It took about two years after each of the last two recessions to finally see job growth (not to mention the economy has to average ~125k new jobs per month to keep up with population growth). Those recessions were very mild compared to this one. Even Obama's own rosey-colored report shows the unemployment rate higher in 2012 than right now. There's just too much debt in the system for things to recover so quickly (~350% of GDP). Another wave of subprime mortgage resets just as potent as the one going on now will hit next year and go through 2011. Taxes will have to go up to pay for the deficits and the much higher carrying costs. People expecting a return to anything remotely resembling a 97-07 type economy are delusional.  

For the REPs, I suspect the vote on this bill could be the REP version of the DEM Iraq War vote in coming elections.

It definitely is a very risky plan--largest government stimulus plan in history, even with dollars adjusted to inflation.  However, if it works or not, that will not be measured for some time.  If the economic situation becomes dire it can hurt Obama's reeclection bid, but I honestly haven't heard any other significant proposals from the GOP.  They basically agree with the plan in principle but want Obama to make some concessions, i.e. keeping Bush's cuts permanent and removing family planning dollars from the plan.

ToxicAdam

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #394 on: January 27, 2009, 01:29:45 PM »
There is a bit of posturing on both sides of this. Obama knows he can get this passed without the dissenters. The Dem majority (and Rep swing vote) is large enough to get it done, with a few concessions.

Obama will allow for this public show so people know who the roadblocks are.

siamesedreamer

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #395 on: January 27, 2009, 01:51:24 PM »
I think its funny how after telling the house GOP "I won" he comes back to them with his tail between his legs today to try to win some of them back. They just got out of the meeting and apperently Obama told them he's "not too proud to have full authorship of the bill". Well no fucking shit. The whole point of making it "bipartisan" is to give the DEMs political cover for when this thing fails. The proof is in the pudding. If they were sure the plan would work, then both sides would be climbing over each other trying to sign on. As it is now, Obama is begging the house GOP to get aboard while the GOP is backing further away everyday.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #396 on: January 27, 2009, 02:00:13 PM »
I think you missed the point of his "I won" quip dude

Nor is he trying to spread blame just in case. It's not like both parties were ever going to come together and pass this; at most Obama wanted maybe 6 or so republicans so they could get on TV and praise this newfound spirit of bipartisanship.
010

siamesedreamer

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #397 on: January 27, 2009, 02:31:15 PM »
He wanted 80 senators voting for it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/29/AR2008122902037.html


Ran across this from today:


Cheebs

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #398 on: January 27, 2009, 02:36:03 PM »
Quote
Obama to GOP: "Feel Free to Whack Me Over the Head"


Why would he say that? lol

ToxicAdam

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #399 on: January 27, 2009, 02:42:19 PM »



I love the implication of that logo. It shows how large Alaska is in landmass in relation the US. So, of course Sarah can run the country ... it's only a little bigger than Alaska!


Eric P

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #400 on: January 27, 2009, 02:49:17 PM »
she looks like wonder woman in that picture for some reason
Tonya

siamesedreamer

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #401 on: January 27, 2009, 03:11:13 PM »
If you look close enough you can just barely see Russia in that pic. Nice subtlety...

Guybrush Threepwood

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #402 on: January 27, 2009, 06:29:43 PM »
why is she still relevant?
ಠ_ಠ

chronovore

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #403 on: January 27, 2009, 08:12:26 PM »
Quote
In the most cynical of evaluations, it's not clear to me that they're incorrect. If the stimulus is judged a success, their political gain from adding more votes to what will be seen as Obama's bill will not be that great. So they're figuring that only failure will work for them politically and judge that they want Obama to own it entirely.
  :american

I guess I can remove my tinfoil hat now.

Bob Dole did the same thing in his bid. He got up and bitched about how Clinton had failed to pass much of anything through congress; I recall Dole was the spearhead of that overwhelming resistance to Clinton's proposed legislation. Though I am remembering Dole using the filibuster a record number of times to prevent a number of Clinton's proposals, thirty-seconds-of-googling is not providing me the links desired.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #404 on: January 27, 2009, 08:18:15 PM »
Internal minutes from Obama's meeting with GOP leaders today
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/internal_minutes_of_obamas_mee.php
010

TakingBackSunday

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #405 on: January 27, 2009, 09:05:37 PM »
taxes taxes taxes
püp

siamesedreamer

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #406 on: January 27, 2009, 09:07:14 PM »
Stimulus is up to ~$900 billion with the addition of a $69 billion AMT shield.

I heard earlier that the real cost is over $1.2 trillion when you figure in borrowing costs.

Cheebs

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #407 on: January 27, 2009, 09:16:36 PM »
When we are in the worst economic crisis since the great depression how much the govt. is spending should be the least of our worries.

TakingBackSunday

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #408 on: January 27, 2009, 09:20:07 PM »
Even though I agree with you Cheebs, that's a broad enough statement that's sure to get the conservatives huffed up.

Especially if it's someone like JayDubya
püp

Brehvolution

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #409 on: January 27, 2009, 09:23:23 PM »
It's really sad that the republicans are so hung up on this "refundability" for those who don't pay income tax. They fail to comprehend the idea of money trickling up vs. trickling down. There are far more poor people than rich people. By giving the poor an extra grand or so to spend a year far outweighs giving the money to the rich via tax breaks for them just to keep it to cushion the losses they sustained recently. the money "given" to the non-taxpayer goes right back into the system whereas the alternative doesn't.
©ZH

siamesedreamer

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #410 on: January 27, 2009, 09:23:51 PM »
You cannot fix a problem of debt and over leverage with more debt and more leverage.


TakingBackSunday

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #411 on: January 27, 2009, 09:25:44 PM »
You cannot fix a problem of debt and over leverage with more debt and more leverage.



That's an easy thing to say, but there's a major difference of leadership with this, so...

I don't know, I'm pretty indifferent.  I'd like to hear OTHER options, but right now the right is far too concerned with sticking to their party platform ties rather than truly examining the semantics of the plan.
püp

Brehvolution

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #412 on: January 27, 2009, 09:26:19 PM »
The GOP stance on spending should be thrown out much the same way it was when they had the power.
©ZH

siamesedreamer

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #413 on: January 27, 2009, 09:29:57 PM »
It's really sad that the republicans are so hung up on this "refundability" for those who don't pay income tax.

Its creating a sizable hole in entitlement funding. That money is not being made up from anywhere else. Pretty ironic considering that Bush's SS privitization plan was DOA because it would have done the same thing (albeit on a much larger scale).

siamesedreamer

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #414 on: January 27, 2009, 09:35:24 PM »
I'd like to hear OTHER options...

I haven't really heard much that would be considered middle of the road other than what we're seeing from Capitol Hill. Everything is pretty much on the extreme from Krugman's suggestion of something like a $2 trillion plan to those on the right who suggest tax holidays that would equal the cost of the proposed stimulus.

TVC15

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #415 on: January 27, 2009, 09:41:23 PM »
I like how now that Bush is out of office, the Republicans are apparently the party of fiscal responsibility again.  LOL.
serge

y2kev

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #416 on: January 27, 2009, 09:44:17 PM »
I think there's too much danger here. The stimulus probably won't work and the Republicans are going to be completely absolved of it. Obama will be fine-- he's sold himself-- but Congressional dems could be screwed.
haw

huckleberry

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #417 on: January 27, 2009, 09:44:37 PM »
I like how now that Bush is out of office, the Republicans are apparently the party of fiscal responsibility again.  LOL.

Don't judge us based on what we did before.  Judge us on what we are going to do for the future....or something like that.

/McCain
wub

Van Cruncheon

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #418 on: January 27, 2009, 10:33:21 PM »
the stimulus is pretty packed with pork. get rid of anything related to farm subsidies and/or the flyover midwest -- let them rot. they've been depressed since the 90s.
duc

ToxicAdam

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Re: so, Obama is president
« Reply #419 on: January 27, 2009, 11:02:40 PM »
Actually, most of the midwest cities had a renaissance of sorts in the mid-late 90's. Growth that wasn't false, like the dot com boom or real estate speculation.

I don't really care what Obama does .. but I just hope he allows some businesses/banks to die. Buoying these failed corporations will only lengthen our malaise.

I'm kind of curious when all of this fear will turn into anger and the return of the anti-incumbent mood will fuel the voters. I would love to see every congressperson with more than a decade of experience put out on their asses.