What are you playing?

[JohnDoe]

Metroid Fusion.
The boss fights in this motherfucker make Super Metroid look like a joke smh.

[Himu]

The characters models are for a game that came out in 2000.

This is battle.







This is field gameplay.







It looks fine. In fact, it looks charming and really visually pleasing. You have to be a complete graphic whore to find this title ugly.

And Suikoden V is a great game, and its load times aren't so bad you can't play and enjoy the game.

[Himu]

Here's the 5/10 game from load times everyone!

[Bebpo]

Yeah, that looks tedious as fuck.  Why not play one of the 100+ jrpgs/crpgs that still hold up today and aren't tedious instead? 





Man, 5 is such a downgrade.

[StealthFan]

A Link Between Worlds: This art style. Am I playing a budget game or a fucking AAA contender. Shit is so cheap looking.

[Himu]

Tedious?

[Bebpo]

Look, I'm just pulling your chain Himuro.  But there are games that are great in their time, and not so much today.  I mean I was mister Xenosaga, and Ep1 was my shindigg but holy shit those 10 second battle load times that were fine back in 2001 would drive me nuts today and I think I speak for most people on stuff like that. 

[tiesto]

I'm thinking Suikoden 5 is gonna be my Christmas break game this year, since its supposedly the longest of the series. And actually Threads of Fate might be my next RPG.

[Rufus]

Played Legacy of Kain: Defiance for a couple hours and yeah, there's no need to see this through for myself. Combat is workable now. Auto-lock on, a simple light attack, heavy attack system with launchers and spells, i.e. 360 degree explosions. It's a lot less frustrating, which is perhaps why they force you to fight a lot more. Kain and Raziel play pretty much the same way, only real difference is that Raziel has to jump back and forth between the spirit realm and the real world, which I must admit is pretty cool in this game. No more glyphs, instead he possesses a corpse and then bursts out of it. The feeding animation is pretty neat, too. He rips people's souls from their bodies and then sucks them up. It also looks a lot better, too, but the level design suffered greatly. It's essentially a pure action game now with some light switch puzzles and occasional, very simple box pushing. Not quite DMC levels, but close. edit: I take that back, it gets much more invovled in Vorador's Castle. Still, meh. Out-Reavered over here.
Blood Omen 2 might just be the best 3D Kain game.

is blood omen 2 a better game on pc? granted it's been well over a decade now, but I remember that game as a mess in ps2.

I played it on PC nearly decade ago at this point, so my memory is a biiit fuzzy. No issues that I remember, though I suppose my standards today might be a little different. It was lent to me by a friend back then, so I can't pop it in again to check.

[kick51]

look....I like JRPGs, but they all suck.  anyone else feel like that 

[Himu]

This discussion got me to start a new game of chrono cross. I have not played it since 2002. I'm mixed on the game. On one hand I have a lot of good memories of it. On the other I thought the way it tied into trigger was awful.

But I'm older now and the Trigger tie in stuff doesn't bother me, and I'm nostolgia'ing out, I admit.

The gameplay is fantastic. When I first played it, I just flailed and picked random shit rather than learning the battle systems intricacies. The result is probably the best battle system for a jrpg on the psx. The game also is beautiful as always and looks great on my hdtv.

To tie this post into the chrono theme: It's funny how time works. I used to dislike this game because of its story and how it kinda shits on Trigger. But in hindsight, I really love it, and this brings memories of that summer of 02 when we lived in a hotel while they cleared out the mold in our house and I played it. Time does odd things to how perceive things. Like, isn't it odd to have good memories of something you disliked?

[bork]

It looks fine. In fact, it looks charming and really visually pleasing. You have to be a complete graphic whore to find this title ugly.

No, not really.  Chrono Cross did not age well, visually.  I agree with Bebpo that a lot of PS1 3D RPGs (hell, most polygon based games from that era) haven't aged well in that regard.  Game play is another story.  I find it much easier to go back and play sprite-based games, going back to the 8-bit era, than early 3D games.

I remember being pretty impressed with Vagrant Story on PS2 (with smoothing filters) and via emulation, however.  That game had some awesome art. 

[bork]

look....I like JRPGs, but they all suck.  anyone else feel like that 

 

There are very few (turn-based) JRPGs that I like.  It's pretty much just been the Persona games and Neptunia (at least, based on Re;Birth) that I have had fun with.  I enjoyed what I played of Chrono Trigger years ago, too.  That's pretty much the only Square RPG I've ever liked.

[Himu]

"I like jrpgs but they all suck"

" There's very few jrpgs I like"



Jury's out but sounds like you just don't like jrpgs.

Can someone tell me WHY Chrono Cross doesn't look good? I find these graphics fine. It's not like the graphics are from the BAT, Tomb Raider, FFVII era of 3d.

[kick51]

I like a lot of them, they are the best games when you're depressed and want something to focus on.  I just acknowledge that they're also bad. 

[Himu]

Which ones do you play?

[tiesto]

And bad in what way? Story? Gameplay? I don't mind a silly story from time to time, especially if the gameplay is interesting. I have a bit less patience for story-based games lacking in gameplay, but I did love Xenogears so I dunno.

[kick51]

Which ones do you play?

a ton of them going back to the NES days.  Most of the classic ones, some middle range/b-tier, some obscure ones. 

I will admit to not having played a suikoden game and I do want to play 2 at some point.

And bad in what way? Story? Gameplay? I don't mind a silly story from time to time, especially if the gameplay is interesting. I have a bit less patience for story-based games lacking in gameplay, but I did love Xenogears so I dunno.

first, I mean turn based games.  action rpgs can mix it up and be good games.

Gameplay and Story.   

Gameplay is usually broken at some point and if it's not broken, it's easy to get a hang of and falls into basic, almost brainless rhythms most of the time.  You just overpower the RNG or find ways to minimize it.  Difficulty in many of them is either based on bullshit RNG or your ignorance. If it's the latter, you just pound your head against the wall until you find the right thing to use/do.   And in the field/maps, there's a whole lot of running around and hitting the confirm button to look for secret chests, which are found just by going to that one spot that isn't the way you're supposed to go.  Gear progression is often linear and skill choices are often loaded with bullshit you don't need and clear winners you want.  Most of the time, exploiting weaknesses isn't necessary, except the big exception of SMT, but for that, go back to the part about banging your head against the wall.  If you play a difficult SMT game blind, you can hit some really nasty snags just guessing at shit, trying to get the right demons, etc--a combination of your ignorance and RNG fucking you in the ass and mouth (anyone who played Nocturne blind, didn't look up anything, and got stuck on Matador can attest to this.)

I sometimes like this style of game and can get into it, but it's like checking off a list or scratching a compulsive itch, so I don't consider it to be all that great of gameplay when I take a step back and look at the individual pieces and what the actual experience was like.   

Story is just way more subjective.  so, imo, Even when it's really good (Chrono Trigger), I don't ever feel like it delivers like a good book or movie, yet sometimes it takes 70 hours to tell its story.  At it's worst, it's an orgy of shitty, patronizing tropes meant to part otaku with their money.

[Himu]

You didn't really say which ones you play. For all I know it could just be Square stuff. And Square doesn't really make the best jrpgs. A lot of people, when they say "jrpgs" they really just mean "Final Fantasy". They haven't really delved into the genre at all, and think that Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger are indicative of the genre as a whole. The truth is that being a Final Fantasy or Square fan does not make you a jrpg fan. Most FF fans ignore jrpgs as a genre, and only play those. While jrpg fans tend to explore the genre as a whole.

Suikoden is not so much about gameplay. It's a franchise that's best for its stories and storytelling, I find. It was the only game series I played for story aside from Silent Hill, personally. Battles in Suikoden are brainless, aside from in 3 which I think has the best gameplay in the series. Suikoden is also big on adventure and exploration and seeking new secrets and new places and things to do. It's a very exploration and story based series.

[Himu]

Also, I beat Matador blind. He uses force-based attacks. In the sewers before you fight him there are a lot of force-based demons. Upon fusing you may come across a recipe for a Ameno Uzume, another forced based demon that nulls force-based attacks. Matador is also fast and uses taunt to fuck your stats up. Clearly, the best way to beat him is to be faster than him, use force-demons to absorb the damage he throws at you, and kick his ass. Easy.

The problem is that people think that you can just stomp your way through with grinding, and don't account for all the clues the game leaves behind. Instead of learning to play the game, they say you either need a guide and can't POSSIBLY play it blind - you can - or that you need to grind. Both are false. Almost every time I hear criticism about the genre's gameplay in that vein it just sounds like someone who was unwilling to learn the game. I can attest to this because almost every Final Fantasy fan I know personally thinks Dragon Quest is a grind fest. People think you actually have to grind in DQ8. No, you don't.

And then they shit on the genre because they suck at it.

[Positive Touch]

plays rpgs like it's 1987 and then whines about it....... ok then

[The Legend of Sunblade]

That's not just final fantasy fans though. A lot of people who play RPGs in general have this notion that grinding for experience is an integral part of playing them, andnI've seen the criticism aimed at damn near evefy rpg released in the past decade, when that's only a minority that are eithet bad or like the Disgaea series that play it up on purpose. Meanwhile, in FF alone, I've beaten 7 without using materia and having really low overall levels, do the Four Job Fiesta for 5 every year with some awkward job combinations that require a lot of preparation that sheer grinding can't overcome, and really liked 4 Warriors of Light's emphasis on gear and class abilities over levels.

The relatively recent Dragon Fantasy 1&2 are good examples of bad grinding design. Those games are inherently designed where a ton of obstacles simply can't be overcome without having reached X level because the game offers no alternatives to it. A lot of people tried to defend it by saying that it was "just like the old school games", but even the original Dragon Quest had useful spells that circumvented the need to grind.

[Himu]

That's not just final fantasy fans though. A lot of people who play RPGs in general have this notion that grinding for experience is an integral part of playing them, andnI've seen the criticism aimed at damn near evefy rpg released in the past decade, when that's only a minority that are eithet bad or like the Disgaea series that play it up on purpose. Meanwhile, in FF alone, I've beaten 7 without using materia and having really low overall levels, do the Four Job Fiesta for 5 every year with some awkward job combinations that require a lot of preparation that sheer grinding can't overcome, and really liked 4 Warriors of Light's emphasis on gear and class abilities over levels.

Yup, but within the jrpg genre fanbase it does mostly come from FF fans.

[mormapope]

Dragon's Dogma Dark Arisen. FUCK THE WAGON QUEST. The one at the beginning of the game where you need to protect the wagon transporting the basilisk head to Gran Soren. So plodding, so boring, just want to get to the good bits again.

Dead Space 1. Classic, one of the best third person shooters ever. Matches the pacing of RE4 and then some, plasma cutter is always OP and extremely fun to use.

[tiesto]

I'll admit if a boss has me stumped for a bit and I can't figure out a good strategy, I'm pretty quick to just go off and grind for a few minutes.

[Positive Touch]

lmao I got stuck for a few days on that wagon quest in dragons dogma too. got pissed when I died and saw there was no checkpoints. you get to the big city right after that so it's worth it to keep going.

you deserve to get hit with a plasma cutter tho for saying dead space has pacing like re4. foh with that blatant bullshit.

[mormapope]

In Dead Space it rarely feels like you're doing busy work, even though the entire game is busy work. The combat is a lot quicker than I remembered it being, confrontations usually last like 10-30 seconds, and there is very little alone time. You never get the chance to become bored in Dead Space, you're constantly doing different shit than what you did five minutes prior.

RE4 is definitely more memorable, I have to give it that over Dead Space.

[demi]

Dead Space is a complete chore to play bro. U sure you arent talking about the infinitely better Dead Space 2?

[mormapope]

Back when I first beat Dead Space 2 I enjoyed it a lot more than Dead Space 1, will get to that right after rebeating Dead Space 1. Melee was improved dramatically in DS2, tons of little tweaks in general.

[Himu]

Dead space sucks

[Positive Touch]

jfc i hate the 360 version of Dragon Age Inquisition. this is an abysmal product. I expected a visual downgrade, but this is just sloppy - it's obvious tons of detail was removed instead of optimized, as the areas look extremely flat and empty. the textures are as bad as anything from the n64 era, and the texture pop-in is as bad as mass effect 1 pre-hd installation. the frame is low but there have been a few times where the audio stutters because it slows down so much. there's also tons of visual glitches, with characters shaking and stuttering all over the place.

worst part is that while the main game is ugly, it's the cutscenes that have the most problems by far. makes it really distracting when I'm trying to pay attention.

just an all-around really disappointing package here. I'm fucking sick of these major publishers shipping broken games left and right.

[mormapope]

By memorable I mean its easy to recount and remember sections of RE4. Entering the Village, Chainsaw dudes, lake monster, castle gauntlet rooms, boss fights, fighting the thing in the basement. Those things stick with the player. In Dead Space, things sorta happen, and continue to happen.

Dead Space 1 and especially 2 are the closest things to sequels for RE4. RE5 is bland as fuck when it comes to everything, weapons, characters, dialog, enemies. I'd rank RE6 much higher than RE5 just because of the weird ambition for RE6 alone, RE5 doesn't feel ambitious at all. The inventory management in RE5 is also a colossal step down from RE4, where it was actually fun to organize your shit.

RE5 can chill with Code Veronica in the bland basement where they can drink Miller Lite and eat plain tortilla chips.

[Positive Touch]

dead space one is:

enter level -> traverse hallways to find unique room -> retrieve mechanical part and fight horde -> backtrack hallways to start of level -> repeat until finished

re5 wasn't perfect, but you went through towns, swamps, underground temples, a lab, a castle, and a fucking volcano. that shit was memorable. dead space was like a year 2520 version of an office building.

[mormapope]

RE5 had no tension though, Dead space ain't scary, but shit does get hectic or fucked up enough where you do panic to survive. In RE5 the mood and atmosphere felt like a Micheal Bay or shitty Ridley Scott movie, the set pieces that took place in the middle of normal action scenarios were completely tame. I prefer dumb and awkward Resident Evil over tame and modernized Resident Evil. The dialog and characters in RE4 are goofy and funny as fuck, in RE5 I gave no fucks about anyone there wasn't that much silliness light heartedness.

And while RE4 was goofy with its narrative, the tension remained throughout. Leon was cornered and didn't have anything else to do besides whoop some ass. Chris and Sheva meanwhile are trying to save the day.

[StealthFan]

Dead Space 2 owned.

[Positive Touch]

omg xenoblade is like a deep tissue massage to the most weebish parts of my soul

[kick51]

Also, I beat Matador blind. He uses force-based attacks. In the sewers before you fight him there are a lot of force-based demons. Upon fusing you may come across a recipe for a Ameno Uzume, another forced based demon that nulls force-based attacks. Matador is also fast and uses taunt to fuck your stats up. Clearly, the best way to beat him is to be faster than him, use force-demons to absorb the damage he throws at you, and kick his ass. Easy.

The problem is that people think that you can just stomp your way through with grinding, and don't account for all the clues the game leaves behind. Instead of learning to play the game, they say you either need a guide and can't POSSIBLY play it blind - you can - or that you need to grind. Both are false. Almost every time I hear criticism about the genre's gameplay in that vein it just sounds like someone who was unwilling to learn the game. I can attest to this because almost every Final Fantasy fan I know personally thinks Dragon Quest is a grind fest. People think you actually have to grind in DQ8. No, you don't.

And then they shit on the genre because they suck at it.

lol nope, not even close to what I said.  please try reading again when you're out of hyper-defensive gamer mode and have a better understanding of the english language and its modifiers and subtleties.

[Himu]

Isaac we need you to go fix the toilet just in case we need a place to shit in because I sure as fuck aren't shitting in this trash can.

10/10 - ign

[mormapope]

 

Survival horror as a genre is pretty contrived.

[BobFromPikeCreek]

You know, I've been pretty vocal about my distaste for Borderlands 2's sense of humor, but after playing Destiny for a couple of hours I sincerely miss it. Like, it's not my thing, but at least it's a game with SOME kind of personality. Destiny has to be the blandest fucking thing ever put to disc.

[Beezy]

Isaac we need you to go fix the toilet just in case we need a place to shit in because I sure as fuck aren't shitting in this trash can.

10/10 - ign

[fistfulofmetal]

Like being better than RE5 is much of an accomplishment. It's a trash-tier game. Absolutely awful.

[Himu]

Survival horror as a genre is pretty contrived.

Naw, survival horror at its best isn't a janitor simulator

[mormapope]

Survival horror as a genre is pretty contrived.

Naw, survival horror at its best isn't a janitor simulator

What is Survival Horror at its best though? Silent Hill 2 isn't a good survival horror game, its a fantastic horror game, but you get an abundance of healing items, ammo, you don't need to manage your inventory whatsoever. Not to mention combat and the few boss battles are ass. Classic Resident Evils are the definition janitor simulators, collecting keys, trying keys on different doors, scrounging around for supplies and ammo.
 
Survival horror has to be contrived, otherwise that shit wouldn't work. You're telling me you would search for a key to a wooden door when in reality you can bash that fucker open with anything laying around? Ragging on Dead Space for being a errand boy simulator makes sense, but you can't ignore how other games in the genre are just as goofy when it comes to narrative drive.

Dead space trumps almost every other survival horror game when it comes to combat and how fun combat can be. If we're talking about narrative, Silent Hill as a series shits on everything else. STALKER is severely underrated as a horror title, I'd rank that above a lot of other horror based franchises.

[Himu]

In RE, you're not really a janitor though. In Dead Space, being a janitor is literal. We are talking about tasks (i.e. what are you doing in the game). In Dead Space, most of your tasks are chores because that's your job. In RE, you are left to explore to find horrors yourself. This may mean finding keys, but it also means fighting giant sewer alligators or running away from giant tyrants. In Silent Hill, you have mysteries that you have to solve and explore the unknown. It uses puzzles, but usually to expound upon the narrative. Fatal Frame isn't janitor work either. RE works the way it does because it's also pretty much an adventure game in its structure. I don't think you need keys or anything like that at all for survival horror to work. I think games like Siren, Rule of Rose, and Clock Tower make that pretty clear.

[mormapope]

I understand where you're coming from now, you don't like the literal role of Issac and what he does during Dead Space, and how the game isn't that strong when it comes to the depth of horror. I can respect that. Granted though, if Issac didn't do those jobs, he would be immediately fucked. There isn't a simple solution of escape from the space station he's at. He also wants to find his girlfriend.

[Positive Touch]

like himu said, re has actual events happening. there's variety in the scenario. ds is just some thin excuses to go shot some more monsters. you combine that with the bland level design and you get a tedious-ass game.

[brob]

Best survival horror game is Pathologic y'all 2scrub

[Rufus]

Maybe I should finally play that instead of the recently updated Outcast. Or the old Tomb Raider games (all of them). Or go back and play Phatasy Star with maps from Gamefaqs. Or continue Shenmue 2. Or Resonance of Fate.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Or maybe I should get my fucking life in order.

[close]

[Positive Touch]

man suikoden 1 is such an asspoo game

[Himu]

Naw.

[Positive Touch]

yeah

crud combat system, uggo graphics

[Himu]

The combat is fast and get the job done. Better than most FF battle systems.

Graphics are dated for sure.

But it's still a great game.

[Positive Touch]

lol what is this ff hate kick you've been on

the only ff that has a worse battle system than this is 2.

and there isn't a while lot else to the game. story sequences are very brief, dungeons are simple, and there isn't much to explore or do in general.

game was underwhelming back when it first came out and that still holds true today.

[Himu]

Did you get the castle? Suikoden games don't open up until you get the castle. This is true for every Suikoden game including the original.

It's not FF hate at all. VI-IX don't have particularly good battle systems. You can get by using just attack. Suikoden speeds things up by hitting auto. The formation and rune system are also unique and its mp system is better than anything FF has come up with.

Saying there isn't much to do or explore tells me you are very early into the game. Suikoden is a 15-20 hour game but it definitely has things to do.

Where are you?

[Positive Touch]

just got the castle and I don't remember where to go next

[Himu]

Now is to do that exploration you were asking about. Now that you have the castle go to towns and recruit new people and build an army.

[Positive Touch]

ok I'll do it tomorrow

[StealthFan]

Siren is a good survival horror game. The remake wasn't as good.

Soul Sacrifice owns. Is Bravely Default good?

[The Legend of Sunblade]

The first 1/4 of Bravely Default is pretty great.

The remaining 3/4 was the Dev team realizing they ran out of money and copy/pasted that same 1/4 three more times, literally.