Starcraft: Wings of Something thread of bitching about terran |OT|

[Himu]

Me vs Phoenix Dark

http://www.mediafire.com/?y6kww47awcrhzdv

This was my first multi rts match. Ever.

Yeah. My friends and I never got heavy into SC back in the day and I mainly played stuff like like Warcraft for the campaigns.

PD showed me the ropes a week ago and I've been looking at videos, playing against bots, and playing the campaign since.

Please tell me what I did good and bad, and tell me if I stink. I prefer real feedback.

[Phoenix Dark]

I was off racing as Protoss btw!

I also posted it in the GAF SC2 thread, which gets a lot of traffic and has a great community.

While I haven't watched the entire replay yet, some things that I noticed:

-when a game starts, it's a good idea to send your workers (SCVs) to mine minerals, and build another SCV at your Command Center right away; you always start a game with 50 minerals, meaning you can make one SCV immediately.

-it's also helpful to set your Command Center rally point to a mineral patch, that way when an SCV finishes building it'll start mining right away. Just click on the CC (Command Center), then click on a mineral patch and you'll create a line for SCVs to follow.

[Himu]

I did do a cc rally point, and thanks for the tip about making an scv immediately

can you link to the gaf thread, i don't post/read there anymore so a link would help

[Phoenix Dark]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=454096
Hell, the thread is even named after me lol

some basic stuff from Day9

[Mandark]

Badass. I'll have to play with you guys one day

oh and Mandark, you need to enter the upcoming 1v1 GAF tournament. I've hyped you to Olympian heights, people expect a zerg savior to deny the massive $100 prize from the two guys (a Terran and Toss) who win everything

Oh lawdy, I hope you haven't.  I definitely feel like I've hit my ceiling at mid-masters.  When's the tourney?

Also, have you read this thread at TL?  It's a pretty good comprehensive guide to high-ish level ZvP, including some helpful scouting and timing benchmarks.

[CajoleJuice]

Badass. I'll have to play with you guys one day

oh and Mandark, you need to enter the upcoming 1v1 GAF tournament. I've hyped you to Olympian heights, people expect a zerg savior to deny the massive $100 prize from the two guys (a Terran and Toss) who win everything

Oh lawdy, I hope you haven't.  I definitely feel like I've hit my ceiling at mid-masters.

So you're part of the 1%? 

[Phoenix Dark]

The tournament is this weekend, sign up period is over sadly. Here's the thread
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=471108&highlight=

I'm screwed, being on Shake's end of the bracket. He's top 5 masters, will probably be GM soonish. He's the guy you played a few weeks ago; he's beaten Spanishiwa, iirc he almost beat Idra too

Haven't checked out that TL thread yet, thanks for the link. Lately I've just been doing the Stephano three base build in ZvP. Protoss would sit back and let you do whatever you wanted for weeks, now they've finally realized they can punish the build lol

[Himu]

this thread is helpful, pd

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3334235&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

[Phoenix Dark]

I can't see the thread

[OptimoPeach]

Yeah I pretty much squealed like a little girl when I heard about the BW-SC2 merger. Bought a ticket for the current GSL season and started playing again. Can't wait, can't wait.

I was put in platinum after placements and have since been demoted to gold All-time low for me. Coming back to this game is not easy. I think the most difficult adjustment is the current map pool. So many big ones now, and everyone plays so much more greedily as a result. My macro is poor enough right now that I'm just trying to play straight up so I can improve on that, but it's bad enough that I feel like I have a better chance doing noob two-base timings and all-ins when I scout stuff like 1-gate expands, at least until some of the rust wears off.

Himuro playing now?

[Himu]

I'm getting better.

I took out some of PD's bases the other night!

[Himu]

Played two matches in practice league so far. Won one, lost the other but the loss was because I had to go afk.

PD, by the end of the match I won I had almost 70 workers. I annihilated his two bases on the east side of the map, took out his banshees, then stockpiled and made about 5-6 battle cruisers on top of my huge force and went for this other base he was trying to set up. I nuked his barracks and wen straight for his base, then he just quit because he only had one other base that was currently being produced. He tried picking at my bases repeatedly but was always incapable of getting inside due to good defense and patrols.

I'm real proud. My first real win!

[Mandark]

Man, I appreciate the nuances of higher level* play, but there's really something to be said for being a newbie, and not being constrained by constant exposure to the "right" way to play.  Battlecruisers!  They're awesome!  But you never see them after a certain point.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

*Only relative to the vast population of fellow ladder-jockeys

[close]

[Himu]

Another victory. Check the replay.

http://www.2shared.com/file/URMXFsVN/SC2_victory.html

[Himu]

Probably a more "clean" win? I dunno?

http://www.2shared.com/file/Z3af-iup/Novice_Kulas_Ravine.html

[Phoenix Dark]

Grats Himu! I'll watch the games tonight

Had my first match of the tournament today, and in a stunning first round upset I lost to a plat Protoss 2-1. God dammit. My reign as GAF's whipping boy zerg continues. I must admit I was practicing for the second round moreso than this one, but it's no excuse

the games
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=37829043#post37829043

I crushed him in the first game with the Stephano build, but struggled against +1 zealot rushes in the second and third games. The third game was quite epic

[Himu]

Tried out zerg on ai and holy shit it's complex.

[Himu]

I'm really frustrated. I'm really trying and any time I fight Protoss this happens.

http://www.2shared.com/file/IlBm36LT/Novice_Steppes_of_War__3_.html

I made like 6 refineries and I was still getting chump gas economy and couldn't keep up. I really don't like playing as Terran because everything is so fucking expensive to get the best shit, and by the time I get that, my opponent has a whole fucking army while I have peanuts.

Just really struggling here.

[Himu]

I placed Silver. ^_^

[Phoenix Dark]

Whoa, grats dude! I'll have to post some more stuff for you to check out, maybe some basic build orders/guidelines for the early game.

Damn I wish you weren't banned on GAF, the thread is very active there, and has many terran players

[Phoenix Dark]

I've been so busy with D3 that I forgot the GSL finals were last night. HOLY FUCK, that might be the most entertaining series ever. Hopefully I can find a free link for anyone not subscribing, that shit was epic

And the MLG spring arena has been going on all weekend. Stephano is killing Koreans lol. I'm not paying for the ticket though, I'll watch it next week when it's free

Oh and the BW/SC2 proleague starts tonight, I'll post a stream link once it arrives. Flash is playing tonight
http://www.youtube.com/esportstv
english: http://www.twitch.tv/saylesc


Damn, I was planning on playing D3 all day but...too...much...sc2 to watch

[Phoenix Dark]

I'm trying to stay up and watch the GSL finals live but bahh....I think I'm going to fall asleep. 3 more hours jesus, pretty sure this is the latest one they've had in awhile

plus I have a feeling it'll be a blowout

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I bet MC wins 4-1. Lots of 4 gates

[close]

[Phoenix Dark]

big patch today
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355357

The UI changes are a step in the right direction. It really helps put a spotlight on the arcade stuff more casual players tend to focus on, and allows people to rank games more efficiently. I'm still waiting for clan implementation, better stat tracking, etc but at least Blizzard is listening.

Just played a ZvT and noticed the Queen range buff was gone. I'm guessing this is a bug or glitch, as from what I understand this patch had no balance changes. And the recent interviews I saw with Dustin Browder suggested they have no plans to change things. Enjoy your bug tonight Terran, and cry moar tomorrow

[Phoenix Dark]

Mandark...thoughts on the creep change in the upcoming patch? Initially I thought it would lead to lots of hidden cheese (pylons, spines, etc) but so far I haven't noticed a major difference. Usually I have so many queens that spreading creep isn't a problem, and the vision is fine.

[Phoenix Dark]

couple gaffers streaming the HOTS beta
http://www.twitch.tv/escapingjail
http://www.twitch.tv/xmshake#

I kind of feel bad for protoss lmao. I'm sure the War Hound will be nerfed a lot before launch but still, mech could be tough for toss to deal with

edit: Shake (t) just beat ThorZain, who was playing zerg

[ManaByte]

Bunch of beta vids on Youtube:

[Phoenix Dark]

Seems like the ladders are being dominated by Terran right now, at least based on the streams I watch. The War Hound/Battle Hellion/SCV all in attack is looking very scary against zerg and protoss.

Everything looks overpowered but that's not surprising; the original SC2 beta had a bunch of crazy balance issues too, like 1 food Roaches. My general overarching concern is about the types of units being introduced and the general C&Cization of StarCraft. The War Hound especially strikes me as the newest poster boy of this in terms of its impact of mech; Blizz is basically saying "we want you to play mech, here's a unit that automatically targets armored units for massive damage that doesn't require any skill/micro." I'm sure the unit will see changes, I just hope they're good ones

[Mandark]

Just played my first game in the Beta!

Sythesizer Patel

[Phoenix Dark]

Been playing for a few days. My impressions so far

-first off I'm glad the War Hound was removed. I didn't get to play against it, but it struck me as such a horrible unit and an example of the C&Cization of SC2. Massive damage, can't really micro because you don't need to, auto targets units that it does the most damage to, etc. Bleh. Just revive the Goliath and call it a day

Zerg yo:

Swarm Host
-I really like the Swarm Host. So far I've mainly tested it in ZvZ and ZvT. I like the siege ability it provides in the mid game, it can also be used for base defense; I think it will be a good idea to put one behind minerals to help deal with the Oracle unit that blocks minerals

-The ZvT possibilities are interesting here. You can get them out instead of Infestors and use it to basically defend against pushes, expand more, etc; just pair it with a queen and some detection in order to deal with Banshees. I used it to flank a terran army as I rolled in with lings/banelings and it worked great. Would I pick a revival of the Lurker over it? Sure, but it's a pretty good alternative imo

-I'm not sure how it'll work in ZvP though. From what I've seen in streams, it's easy just to block them with force fields. I'd imagine some proper flanking could work though

Viper

-This is the unit that made me squeal like a girl when I first saw it months ago. It's probably overpowered lol, but I like the concept

-I didn't really control them well in the games I played. They're faster than I expected and die very fast which makes sense.

-I haven't gotten a chance to use it in ZvP yet; I abducted a couple tanks in ZvT though, which was cool. I want to know whether abducting a Colosus through force fields can get rid of them...if that's the case...

[CajoleJuice]

I'd beg for a key but I haven't played all that much SC2. Really should be playing it instead of D3...

[Mandark]

The game I played was very silly.  Protoss went for an Oracle then some Tempests.  I used a bunch of vipers to pull the tempests towards my massed queens as they tried, so slowly, to get away.  The other guy and I were just geeking out to play with new units.

With the viper and the ways it might combine with the infestor, zerg play is looking pretty spell-heavy, which is apparently how WC3 tended to be in contrast to Brood War.  I do like that for the most part they're trying to create units that function differently than others, rather than scoot-and-shoot units with different stats (and the one big exception got taken out).

[Phoenix Dark]

Bah I'm behind in GSL this season but the finals are on right now, and I got spoiled. And GSL is trending on twitter 

[Phoenix Dark]

MLG this weekend...

So yea, looks like Scarlett is the defacto best North American player. She's amazing

[CajoleJuice]

MLG this weekend...

So yea, looks like Scarlett is the defacto best North American player. She's amazing

I searched this. No wonder you like her.

[Phoenix Dark]

HOTS release date: March 12th
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381771

There's been lots of talk recently about whether SC2 is in a healthy position to remain relevant or if it's slowly dying as dota games take over the esports market. It's rather hard to compete with free games that don't really have much of a skill curve for early players; SC2 is so 1v1 focused that it's easy for new players to become frustrated or disinterested.

I'm sure HOTS will breath new life into SC2, and having played the beta I know it'll be good overall (although I have some specific, big concerns), but I'm not sure about the game's long term longevity. I realize SC2 won't be going f2p but I feel like there are a lot of things Blizzard could do to make it more casual friendly/appealing, starting with a true revamp of BNet 2.0. I've seen the changes, I like most of them, it's just time to deliver. Making team games more interesting would also help.

Most people I knew during the BW days pretty much just played Big Game Hunters. SC2's focus seems to be entirely on 1v1 ladder so far, which turns folks off. I'd love to see a return to big, team (or FFA) play that really shakes things up.

[Phoenix Dark]

IPL's Korea vs World tournament is on right now. Stephano is on the verge of performing a reverse all kill...
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/IGNProLeague

[AdmiralViscen]

I liked 2v2 in SC1, but in SC2 I hate all the maps with shared bases. It is boring. The game in general seems to love having you sit there for 10 minutes massing minerals and holding your army and then smashing into each other later. SC1 had more small attacks and a longer early game.

[Phoenix Dark]

I love SC2 but you make a good point. With Brood War, most people played Big Game Hunters style maps where you had huge games (teams or FFA) that were always action packed. IMO SC2 is struggling with casual gamers right now in part because there isn't a BGH type map or mode for people to have fun with.

1v1s have seen a lot of change over the last couple years but team games have sort of stayed the same.

[AdmiralViscen]

I never played those hacked maps in SC1, I only played in private channels on normal resource maps.

I feel like SC2 is already kind of like BGH, bases are so easily defended for the first 5-10 minutes that you can grab as many minerals and gas as you want, and you don't attack your opponent until you have seige tanks or colossus or mutalisks or whatever.

The maps are designed for this too. Many 2v2 maps have the two guys sharing a base, making defense even easier. 1v1 maps have a very clear progression of expansions that doesn't change much game to game and make sit easy to predict what your opponent is doing. 1v1s on 4 player maps have fixed spawns on opposite corners to take out that mystery.

I liked in SC1 being able to sneak out an unexpected expansion almost anywhere, SC2 maps seem to have your best strategy kind of set up for you already.

[headwalk]

I feel like SC2 is already kind of like BGH, bases are so easily defended for the first 5-10 minutes that you can grab as many minerals and gas as you want, and you don't attack your opponent until you have seige tanks or colossus or mutalisks or whatever.

one post cannot contain all this bronze.

[AdmiralViscen]

I do not play a lot - mostly with friends as in SC1

What I said is consistent with pro replays I watch too. The Queen buff and Mothership Core killed a lot of that early game aggression. Zergs usually have 50-60 drones before they move on to their first attack and the forge fast expand is a common Protoss opening - you know, not even making a unit production facility until you have a second mining base and some photon cannons. The game has a lot of turtling.

[headwalk]

I do not play a lot - mostly with friends as in SC1

What I said is consistent with pro replays I watch too. The Queen buff and Mothership Core killed a lot of that early game aggression. Zergs usually have 50-60 drones before they move on to their first attack and the forge fast expand is a common Protoss opening - you know, not even making a unit production facility until you have a second mining base and some photon cannons. The game has a lot of turtling.

forge fast expand was the default opener in BW pvz, too. sc2 has largely morphed in to sc1's meta of either play as greedy as possible or hit a knife edge timing.

the game has a lot of issues, but defenders advantage and control of space are two things that players feel there isn't enough of in sc2. it's led to deathball syndromes where you need every ounce of your supply to hold off an attack, leaving little room for performing multi-pronged harass while still holding ground against their core army. it makes the game very bi-polar instead of skirmish-based, which everyone would prefer.

[Phoenix Dark]

Yea in BW Zerg could easily take three Hatcheries before building a Spawning Pool. I'd agree SC2's metagame is beginning to mirror BW's in many ways.

I agree with AdmiralViscen about the turtling though. BW games tended to have a rolling momentum where there were always skirmishes around the map and whoever multi tasked the best would win; sure there were also building order wins/losses too. SC2 is built around specific timing attacks, massing units until x moment, etc. It's also heavily based around ramp play which leads to lots of crammed units in a ball.

Basically when watching a pro game you know nothing will happen for the first 10 minutes (SC time, not real time). Initially when Flash and other BW pros started playing SC2 they were experimenting with some interesting early pressure builds, but after awhile they moved towards the more traditional macro play.

[AdmiralViscen]

I do not play a lot - mostly with friends as in SC1

What I said is consistent with pro replays I watch too. The Queen buff and Mothership Core killed a lot of that early game aggression. Zergs usually have 50-60 drones before they move on to their first attack and the forge fast expand is a common Protoss opening - you know, not even making a unit production facility until you have a second mining base and some photon cannons. The game has a lot of turtling.

forge fast expand was the default opener in BW pvz, too. sc2 has largely morphed in to sc1's meta of either play as greedy as possible or hit a knife edge timing.

the game has a lot of issues, but defenders advantage and control of space are two things that players feel there isn't enough of in sc2. it's led to deathball syndromes where you need every ounce of your supply to hold off an attack, leaving little room for performing multi-pronged harass while still holding ground against their core army. it makes the game very bi-polar instead of skirmish-based, which everyone would prefer.

Isn't this exactly what I was saying when you dissed me

Turtle to deathball to giant clash, no skirmishes (like BGH back in the day), that was my complaint.

[AdmiralViscen]

Blizz on next balance patch:

http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5966979955

[Phoenix Dark]

As if the TL/EG Proleague news wasn't be enough, EG has just signed Jaedong
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386382

wow

edit: one year contract

This is a 1 year loan, during the period all rights to Jaedong will belong to Evil Geniuses. If Team Eight receives a corporate sponsorship during this time, Jaedong will immediately return to Team Eight.

[headwalk]

To accompany the deployment of Heart of the Swarm Beta patch 2.0.2, we’ve compiled a list of all of the balance changes made to the beta since our previous update.

Terran

Medivac
New ability: Emergency Thrusters
Speed boost that increases movement speed and acceleration to 4.25 for 8 seconds. 20 second cooldown.

The Medivac’s Caduceus Reactor upgrade at the Starport Tech Lab:
Health restored per second from 9 to 15.
Energy cost reduced from 3 health per 1 energy to 5 health per 1 energy.
Cost increased from 100/100 and 80 seconds to 150/150 and 110 seconds.

Reaper
Base speed increased from 2.95 to 3.375
Upgraded speed increased from 3.84 to 4.25.

Widow Mine
No longer hits cloaked units.
New upgrade: Drilling Claws
Decreases burrow time from 3 to 1 second.
Requires Tech Lab and Armory. Costs 150/150, 110 second research time.

Thor
250mm Strike Cannons has been removed.
The Thor can now switch between two modes: High-Impact Payload and Explosive Payload. The mode shift takes 4 seconds.
When in High-Impact Payload mode, the Thor switches to a different anti-air gun (250mm Punisher Cannons) that has 10 range and deals 24 flat damage.
Thor radius, inner radius, and separation radius increased from 0.8215 to 1.

Raven
Seeker Missile has been redesigned:
Can now fire from 10 range.
Missile comes out and stays immobile in front of the Raven for 3 seconds while charging up, then rapidly moves (it’s not dodgeable at this point) and explodes at the target for 300 single target damage.
Targeted unit lights up red when targeted. If the unit moves 13 range out of where the Seeker Missile is, the Missile fizzles.

Hellbat
Splash damage radius increased from 90 to 110.

Armory
The Armory now only has one weapon and one armor upgrade for both air and ground upgrades for both Factory and Starport units.


Protoss

Mothership
Recall now functions as it does with the Mothership Core.
Vortex now kills a single target.
Vortex does not affect massive units.

Mothership Core is no longer massive.
Oracle
Pulsar Beam
Now called “Activate Pulsar Beam” and “Deactivate Pulsar Beam”.
When activated, the Oracle’s Pulsar Beam is enabled.
Weapon deals 15+10 light.
Weapon period changed to 0.86, down from 1.
Weapon range reduced to 4.
Energy drain is now 4 per second.

Build time increased to 50, up from 35.

Phoenix
Range increased from 4 to 5. Upgrade still grants +2 range.

Dark Shrine cost is now 100/100, down from 100/250.
Tempest
Now requires Fleet Beacon.
Attacks with two weapons. The primary weapon, Kinetic Overload, hits air units and remains unchanged. The secondary weapon, Resonance Coil, hits ground units, and does not deal bonus damage to massive units.
Build time is now 60, down from 75.

Void Ray
Prismatic Beam:
No longer charges up.
Weapon period decreased from 0.6 to 0.5.
No longer does passive +massive damage.

Prismatic Alignment (new ability) increases damage to armored units by 6 for 20 seconds, with a 1 minute cooldown. This does not scale with upgrades.

Zerg

Hydralisk speed upgrade now requires Lair tech.
Mutalisk
Speed increased from 3.75 to 4. Acceleration stays at 3.5.

Swarm Host health increased from 120 to 160.
Infestor
Fungal Growth:
Is now a projectile.
Speed of the projectile is 10.
Range down to 8.

Infested Terrans no longer gain weapon and armor upgrades.
Infested Terran egg health down to 70.

Ultralisk
Burrow Charge has been removed.
Damage changed from 15+20 armored to 35 flat damage.

Viper health increased from 120 to 150.

fuck babysteps, buff everything, we brood war now.

[Phoenix Dark]

they even fixed Carriers

[Phoenix Dark]

Flash looks scary good at SC2 already. It's weird though, sometimes he looks in over his head still, but other times he just dominates - especially in TvZ. His TvT is rather off still though.

[AdmiralViscen]

Is this our ZeroHero?

[Phoenix Dark]

Flash v Fantasy right now in proleague
http://www.twitch.tv/sc2proleague

EG-TL plays later tonight

[Phoenix Dark]

Man, Jaedong....so close, again.

What league are you in, Business? I haven't played in awhile. Diamond 1v1 but haven't played much 2v2 in SC2.

[Phoenix Dark]

My ID is in the OP. I'll return to SC2 and play some matches breh.