1/31: Seriously the best time ever to buy FFXIII-2

[Bebpo]

So you feel that we've gotten BETTER games with worse art because he's moved beyond being an artist?

I don't see how that is a bad tradeoff.  The art is still acceptable level and the game is what matters.


Nomura was creative producer for TWEWY, Crisis Core, Dissidia/012, The 3rd Birthday, Type-0/Agito.  He had a lot of influence in all aspects of them and you can totally feel the parts that are Nomura and the parts that aren't.  Like 3rd Birthday is written by Toriyama so the story is fucking horrid like XIII and nonsense, but the gameplay systems are damn solid and it's a lot of fun to play.  Dissidia is similar with Watanabe writing and the plot being crap, but great gameplay.

[Himu]

Better games? I don't think any of those games he's worked as director and the main man in charge are better than games like FFV, VI, VII, VIII, Musashi, or PE when he was just an artist and nothing more.

[Himu]

Nomura was creative producer for TWEWY, Crisis Core, Dissidia/012, The 3rd Birthday, Type-0/Agito.  He had a lot of influence in all aspects of them and you can totally feel the parts that are Nomura and the parts that aren't.  Like 3rd Birthday is written by Toriyama so the story is fucking horrid like XIII and nonsense, but the gameplay systems are damn solid and it's a lot of fun to play.  Dissidia is similar with Watanabe writing and the plot being crap, but great gameplay.

counter point: kingdom hearts 2 and advent children

Nomura is terrible at direction despite his many interesting ideas.

[Bebpo]

Advent Children doesn't mean shit in terms of his game credits.  Videogame people can't make feature films...news at 11.  It's a different medium and honestly Advent Children Director's Cut is not that bad for a movie and should've been what they originally released.

KH2 is his biggest misstep for sure.  The gameplay is solid but too easy (fixed with harder difficulties) and the story falls apart because he tried to resolve EVERYTHING by the end and he had just created too much KH plot.  All his post-KH2 stuff has been about fixing that misstep and really fleshing out the KH story to have a much better conclusion with KH3.

[tiesto]

when an original IP bombs they make more final fantasy but what happens when final fantasy bombs?

spoiler (click to show/hide)

more kingdom hearts probably

[close]

Nope, betcha they focus more on western development... 

[magus]

nah they already tried that with gun loco and mindjack

http://thesilentchief.com/2011/12/21/rumor-final-fantasy-xv-to-be-announced-at-e3/

allright guys start your bet!

where the ball will land? western like rpg? final fantasy fps? sports game?
HOW WILL THEY ANNOY MAGUS THIS TIME? AREN'T YOU EXCITED TO KNOW?

[Don Flamenco]

nah they already tried that with gun loco and mindjack

http://thesilentchief.com/2011/12/21/rumor-final-fantasy-xv-to-be-announced-at-e3/

allright guys start your bet!

where the ball will land? western like rpg? final fantasy fps? sports game?
HOW WILL THEY ANNOY MAGUS THIS TIME? AREN'T YOU EXCITED TO KNOW?

hopefully a game with good gameplay and a story that is at least good schadenfreude, since they have no hope for ever creating a compelling narrative that real people* can actually relate to.   
*non-anime fans

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I can't wait until Versus XIII comes out, which should be the first pure FFXIII experience!

[Don Flamenco]

sounds like XIII-2 comes close.  good enough for now, in a gen full of shit jrpgs 

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

XIII-2 is tainted by impure elements, forcing the game to be compromised

[Don Flamenco]

meh, par for the course, though sera is particularly uguu~ offensive

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

meh, par for the course, though sera is particularly uguu~ offensive

Versus XIII will be PS3 exclusive, allowing for Nomura-san's vision to be fully realized ^_^

[Vit-Symty]

meh, par for the course, though sera is particularly uguu~ offensive

Versus XIII will be PS3 exclusive, allowing for Nomura-san's vision to be fully realized ^_^

Until Wada steps in and slaps him around a bit demanding change to his vision.

Imperial hot.

[ZephyrFate]

It cost way less money to make this than the first game, so it won't be a bomba no matter what.

[recursivelyenumerable]

yeah, I'm sure some random UK mag would be the first to know about a new FF reveal

[ZephyrFate]

A bomba is a game that doesn't succeed. With DLC and story content still being made for the game, it'll enjoy some legs sales-wise.

And it still perplexes me that this is being pegged as a "game no one wants." It's a fantastic game.

[Positive Touch]

... that sold dirge of cerberus numbers

[ZephyrFate]

Dirge of Cerberus had distinguished mentally-challenged FF7 fanboyism behind it, and it sold way less than FFXIII-2 did in its first week. It shipped 392,000 in its first week in Japan (not sold).

[Don Flamenco]

fuk u guys i'm going to be sooooo mad when my s-e stock fails due to rampant forum speculation of bombas

[Sho Nuff]

But didn't the bible of video games Famitsu give it 40/40!?

[Don Flamenco]

[ZephyrFate]

A bomba is a game that doesn't succeed. With DLC and story content still being made for the game, it'll enjoy some legs sales-wise.

And it still perplexes me that this is being pegged as a "game no one wants." It's a fantastic game.

Are you fucking distinguished mentally-challenged?  It's not going to have *any* legs.  RPGs have no legs in Japan in all but the absolute best of times, and this one already has stacks of used copies in the shops.  They're going to struggle like hell to sell out the rest of the first shipment, and that's at the sub-2000 yen price it's going to be at by next week.

Word of mouth could be a surprisingly big help for this game, considering the overall positive reception so far.

[Great Rumbler]

If word of mouth turns out to be really positive, people will just go out and buy used copies for 200 yen.

[ZephyrFate]

Whatever. I hope Western players buy it, it's awesome.

[Sho Nuff]

I wonder what Japan's trade in and resale prices will be on this one.

[MCD]

No one bought 360 version, bet you can get it for free by now.

[magus]

If it had positive word of mouth, maybe.  But it's averaging 60% on MK2 right now and 3.5/5 on Amazon.  The word of mouth is good with English people who imported the game.  That's not going to help the Japanese sales.  At all.

MK2 is that site of fanmade review right? i'm curious to know what they say about it

[Don Flamenco]

so good gameplay, bad story.   

so, good gameplay!

[Don Flamenco]

I've been playing a lot of XIII lately and feel it deserved every last bit of criticism but it's also not so completely horrible as to make me give up on the series.  skipping the cutscenes helps.  and the battle system really is quite good, after you get the crystarium and start getting to areas with tough enemies (like the part where you find weather orbs for the first time.)  It's a great "turn your brain off" game...gameplay just deep enough to not feel like an un-game atrocity, graphics and sound that are quite pleasing.  Despite being a crappy final fantasy game, I can still play it a lot.  Way more than I ever imagined myself playing it (beat it on 360 and I'm up to ch.8 on the PS3...not sure if I'll go further though.)

so, my standards for XIII-2 are literally "just be better than XIII" which is not a hard mark to miss.   

[recursivelyenumerable]

I've been watching more FF13 on Youtube and I still don't get the hate for the story and cutscenes, honestly. They are cheesy by good movie/TV standards, but they are just normal videogame/B-movie cheesy, not some higher level of cheesy. They're probably better than any other FF game except 12, actually. But there seems to be something in particular that just rubs people the wrong way and I'm not sure what it is, other than being pissed off over the game structure makes them look with narrowed eyes on everything else.

Also apparently one of the 'problems' with 13 that they 'fixed' in 13-2 was the fact that it was relatively light on redundant exposition and actually expected you to pick things up from context or body language occasionally, now it's back to tediously explicating everything and recapping the story so far a billion times every scene 

[Himu]

FF13's script is horrible, Recursive. The game assumes we know what all the terms are and does little to ease the player into the game world. Most of the intimate story details are hidden in the datalog. The game has a lot of potential plot developments that are left untangled, random, or have extremely poor resolutions. The party has no goal for more than 80% of the game, character intentions are vague and completely left open, villains are underdeveloped and make pathetic boss of the chapter appearances akin to Sailor Moon, the world of cocoon and pulse have zero sense of culture, especially compared to games like 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 12.

Not understanding people's problem with the story and notably the characters (particularly Vanille and Snow) sounds like some really cute naivete. How anyone can NOT be annoyed by Vanille's mannerisms I don't know.

That being said, I'm replaying the game now and I'm on chapter 6, Sunleth Waterscape. The game is far more enjoyable replaying it than I felt about it the first time, especially since I turned off auto-battle. Now I'm remembering that through the poor gameplay/story pacing and complete absence of level design, there's a great game in here somewhere.

[recursivelyenumerable]

The game assume we know what all the terms are and does little to ease the player into he game world.

This is actually something I liked about it.    I think most games try way way too hard to 'ease you into the game world' for my tastes. Like I said, most of the time you could pick up on what they were talking about from context, observing reactions, etc. The datalog is there if you weren't able to do that and to provide some more background if you're interested, but it's not a necessity.

But yeah, Vanille was pretty annoying, although in the end I thought her character arc worked well. Snow I just found amusing. But again neither of them are extraordinarily bothersome compared to other stuff that doesn't get nearly as much hate, so yeah, still not seeing it.

[Himu]

I prefer having an unknown like Tidus and explain the world in that manner or transitioning by telling us on screen what is happening. Barrett says that Shrinra is sucking the life out of the planet. Not a few moments later you get off a train that is in the middle of the slums and learn everything under the plate is in poverty. The game tells you this and shows you this.

In FFX you have a general idea of the games world and politics before you leave he first town by way of npc dialogue and exposition. The player should not have to question the most basic elements of the story. You don't know what Sin is but it attacks enough that you know it's a threat and the game slowly explains what that threat is and where it came from. In FF13, the game throws around terms like Cocoon and Pulse and Fal'cie without knowing what any of the shit means. You learn their importance but the way game introduces its world, especially for a Final Fantasy game is nothing short of amateurish.

[magus]

Not understanding people's problem with the story and notably the characters (particularly Vanille and Snow) sounds like some really cute naivete. How anyone can NOT be annoyed by Vanille's mannerisms I don't know.

oh come on,final fantasy had always these kind of characters,selphie? zell? rikku? rings any bells?
if anything all the cutscene involving vanille and sazh are gold but the other chirpie final fantasy girls don't add anything else to their respective games other than lot of dirty dirty fanart

The game has a lot of potential plot developments that are left untangled, random, or have extremely poor resolutions. The party has no goal for more than 80% of the game, character intentions are vague and completely left open

the plot of FF13 is pretty simple,they have to murder a godlike entity and they are chased by the government and really that's all you need to know to enjoy it,you know what? i never entered the datalog once and i don't think i have missed anything from it

villains are underdeveloped and make pathetic boss of the chapter appearances akin to Sailor Moon

FF13 villain is not exactly the best villain the serie had but i don't think it's that bad,i have seen worse,sadly himuro will never probably never see the ending of xenoblade

But again neither of them are extraordinarily bothersome compared to other stuff that doesn't get nearly as much hate, so yeah, still not seeing it.

you know what i hate about FF13? everytime there is a flashback,ESPECIALY if it's a flashback involving serah,it turns from a jrpg into what looks like a romance novel for preeteen girls,and people go tell me about the "moms are tough" line like that's the worst part of the script

[Himu]

Vanille is nothing like Rikku, Yuffie, or Selphie. I know cuz those tend to be a favorite of mine. I like spunky characters with attitude. Yuffie is the best character in FF7; her lines are hilarious. Selphie is a blood thirsty school girl high on sugar all the time; Selphie owns. Vanille and Snow are nothing like Zell or any of those characters you listed.

Also mom are tough isn't the worst thin about the script. Any piece of dialogue mentioning heroes is. But it is an example that FF13's script is easily the worst of the 3d FF's, especially since IX, X and XIi have arguably the best.

[recursivelyenumerable]

I think it's just a different style and not necessarily a bad thing, but you're probably right that SF/fantasy stories that use an 'outsider' character for the audience to identify with tend to be more popular. This is kind of confirming my suspicion that it's mainly a combination of some IMO valid but unpopular decisions, and anger over the game structure that's led people to look at something average and see it as terribad because some flaws that are really par for the course stand out more when you're unfavorably disposed to it for other reasons.

I do agree that the way the whole populace of Cocoon outside of the main characters is basically portrayed one-dimensionally as "HURR WE R ANGRY BRAINWASHED MOB" is a major flaw and not just a different decision. This is my biggest problem with the story (one it sort of shares with FFTSW). I was hoping XIII-2 might improve on this, what with having towns and being about rebuilding and stuff, but apparently they decided to mostly ignore that in favor of time paradox nonsense.

[MCD]

Vanille was OK till her plot twist.

Come on now.

[Bebpo]

not going to translate everything, but some brief notes from their reviews:

1st review:

good: battle system is enjoyable, likes the monster catching cuz it reminds him/her of Dragon Quest Monsters, cutscenes look good
bad: story is shit, encounter system sucks, red chocobo sucks, music sucks

main complaint from him/her is that the story blows

2nd review:

good: game is fun, battles have lots of variety, music is good
bad: recycled graphics, story sucks and doesn't fit well with 13, shitty QTEs

overall he/she says to wait for a price drop and compares its quality to third birthday

3rd review:

good: graphics, sound, battle, crafting system
bad: story, some spoiler shit about a particular character, criticism of the time travel aspect and says DQ7 did it better, sub events suck, mini games suck, doesn't like the monster recruiting

overall he/she says it's not bad, but nothing special

4th review:

good: it's easy to make money, the main story is fairly long, the graphics are good, the monster system is cool, the crystarium system (?) is fun
bad: story sucks, music sucks

overall: it's so-so

there are more reviews but that's all i feel like translating

Story by Motomu Toriyama & Watanabe 

I don't know what kind of blackmail they have on SE to let them keep writing important games for the company, but some needs to conveniently make them unemployed.

[magus]

Also mom are tough isn't the worst thin about the script. Any piece of dialogue mentioning heroes is. But it is an example that FF13's script is easily the worst of the 3d FF's, especially since IX, X and XIi have arguably the best.

something something lion

[Bebpo]

At some point I do think the CEO is going to have to put his foot down and say "Ok, everyone in the world says our stories are F- quality bad.  I think we need to change writers".

In America this would have happened 1.5 years ago.  In Japan this may take a decade for them to do something about.

[Himu]

Also mom are tough isn't the worst thin about the script. Any piece of dialogue mentioning heroes is. But it is an example that FF13's script is easily the worst of the 3d FF's, especially since IX, X and XIi have arguably the best.

something something lion

[recursivelyenumerable]

and yeah, Serah is the actual worst character in the game.

[Himu]

I don't see how given how little she's actually in it.

[MCD]

Don't make him leave again now, Borys.

[magus]

and yeah, Serah is the actual worst character in the game.

victory!

I don't see how given how little she's actually in it.

everytime she appears i want to punch her,she serves no other purpouse other than act meek,holier than thou,whiny or a combination of the three

i'm pretty sure FF8 had a pretty stupid scene involving a lion ring or something...
point is,stupid pointless rant about friendship and love happen in final fantasy,news at 11

[recursivelyenumerable]

Story by Motomu Toriyama & Watanabe 

I don't know what kind of blackmail they have on SE to let them keep writing important games for the company, but some needs to conveniently make them unemployed.

I guess Toriyama is the latest popular hate-object among fans, but over time it's been Sakaguchi (FFTSW), Koichi Ishii (the later Mana games), Hiromichi Tanaka (FFXIV), Akitoshi Kawazu (SaGa Frontiers/Unlimited SaGa, FFXII), Takashi Tokita (The Bouncer), Kitase (FF8, Dirge of Cerberus), Nomura (FF8, Advent Children, KH2), Masato Kato (Chrono Cross, FFXI add-on stories), Nojima (FF8, Advent Children, KH2). Looks like nobody's immune whether they've been around and influential almost since the beginning (like Sakaguchi, Ishii, Tanaka, Kawazu and Tokita) or they're more recent hires. About the only significant figure who's never had much of a hatedom is Matsuno, but that's just because he conveniently quit midway through FFXII so fans can say he wasn't responsible for anything they didn't like.

The truth, IMO, is that Square games have always been flawed and uneven. I think they've actually been pretty consistent over time in a lot of ways. Whether they're loved or hated at a given time depends mostly on whether people choose to focus on the flaws or on the good parts, which depends on a lot of things not really directly related to quality.

[ZephyrFate]

IX was pretty much the only solid product that Square's put out in terms of a game with very little in the way of flaws. The final boss aside, it was a culmination of all the best parts about Square's development capacity.

Chrono Trigger I guess could also be a game that fits this too.

[recursivelyenumerable]

As for CT, one IMO major flaw (that it shares with a lot of other JRPGs) is that battles other than bosses are almost completely pointless, because recovery items are so plentiful that you can't really get worn down through the course of a dungeon like in older games. But you still have to fight a ton of them.

[Bebpo]

No way.  Toriyama is absolutely deserved as one of the worst writers, if not THE WORST, in the gaming industry.  I think he's a fine director (though XIII had problems), but he absolutely positively cannot write a story

This is where he started writing through now:

Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings    2007    Nintendo DS    Director, scenario writer
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a King    2008    Wii    Scenario writer
Dissidia: Final Fantasy    2008    PlayStation Portable    Scenario supervisor
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a Darklord    2009    Wii    Scenario writer
Blood of Bahamut    2009    Nintendo DS    Director, scenario writer, event planner
Final Fantasy XIII    2009    PlayStation 3, Xbox 360    Director, scenario designer
Front Mission Evolved    2010    PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, Windows    Lead scenario writer
The 3rd Birthday    2010    PlayStation Portable    Scenario writer
Final Fantasy XIII-2    2011    PlayStation 3, Xbox 360    Director, scenario designer

Bolded have incredibly bad (F-) stories.  And I'd assume the rest do as well, I just haven't played them.

[ZephyrFate]

* 15 second battle load times
* Lots of redundant cutscenes with characters repeating the same schtick over and over again

are just what comes immediately to mind.

What redundant cutscenes? I can understand the battle load times but that other one is just mind-boggling. You're confusing it with XIII.

[Himu]

everytime she appears i want to punch her,she serves no other purpouse other than act meek,holier than thou,whiny or a combination of the three

Serah is never holier-than-thou and rarely whiny.

i'm pretty sure FF8 had a pretty stupid scene involving a lion ring or something...
point is,stupid pointless rant about friendship and love happen in final fantasy,news at 11

There's nothing wrong with Squall giving Rinoa his ring. That scene is perfectly fine, much more, it has no voice acting.

The point is, the characters in past FF's weren't total caricatures. Snow goes on and on about heroes. Who does this in past FF's except for maybe Terra's longing for love?

[Himu]

Story by Motomu Toriyama & Watanabe 

I don't know what kind of blackmail they have on SE to let them keep writing important games for the company, but some needs to conveniently make them unemployed.

I guess Toriyama is the latest popular hate-object among fans, but over time it's been Sakaguchi (FFTSW), Koichi Ishii (the later Mana games), Hiromichi Tanaka (FFXIV), Akitoshi Kawazu (SaGa Frontiers/Unlimited SaGa, FFXII), Takashi Tokita (The Bouncer), Kitase (FF8, Dirge of Cerberus), Nomura (FF8, Advent Children, KH2), Masato Kato (Chrono Cross, FFXI add-on stories), Nojima (FF8, Advent Children, KH2). Looks like nobody's immune whether they've been around and influential almost since the beginning (like Sakaguchi, Ishii, Tanaka, Kawazu and Tokita) or they're more recent hires. About the only significant figure who's never had much of a hatedom is Matsuno, but that's just because he conveniently quit midway through FFXII so fans can say he wasn't responsible for anything they didn't like.

The truth, IMO, is that Square games have always been flawed and uneven. I think they've actually been pretty consistent over time in a lot of ways. Whether they're loved or hated at a given time depends mostly on whether people choose to focus on the flaws or on the good parts, which depends on a lot of things not really directly related to quality.

Have you looked into the Third Birthday?

Toriyama sucks, as does Watanabe.

You're missing Ito btw.

[Bebpo]

You know, Toriyama made great games with FFX (co-directing) and FFX-2 (his game) because he didn't have a single say in the scenario/script of either game.  No good has come of letting him write.  He obviously used his position of power as director of mainline FF to push his ego of "I'm a great writer with stories I long to tell the world" and choose his own scripts for his games.

[Himu]

No way.  Toriyama is absolutely deserved as one of the worst writers, if not THE WORST, in the gaming industry.  I think he's a fine director (though XIII had problems), but he absolutely positively cannot write a story

This is where he started writing through now:

Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings    2007    Nintendo DS    Director, scenario writer
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a King    2008    Wii    Scenario writer
Dissidia: Final Fantasy    2008    PlayStation Portable    Scenario supervisor
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a Darklord    2009    Wii    Scenario writer
Blood of Bahamut    2009    Nintendo DS    Director, scenario writer, event planner
Final Fantasy XIII    2009    PlayStation 3, Xbox 360    Director, scenario designer
Front Mission Evolved    2010    PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, Windows    Lead scenario writer
The 3rd Birthday    2010    PlayStation Portable    Scenario writer
Final Fantasy XIII-2    2011    PlayStation 3, Xbox 360    Director, scenario designer

Bolded have incredibly bad (F-) stories.  And I'd assume the rest do as well, I just haven't played them.

Nojima is definitely much better at writing characters, scenarios and crafting unique worlds despite his faults.

[recursivelyenumerable]

As for CT, one IMO major flaw (that it shares with a lot of other JRPGs) is that battles other than bosses are almost completely pointless, because recovery items are so plentiful that you can't really get worn down through the course of a dungeon like in older games. But you still have to fight a ton of them.

[recursivelyenumerable]

You know, Toriyama made great games with FFX (co-directing) and FFX-2 (his game) because he didn't have a single say in the scenario/script of either game.  No good has come of letting him write.  He obviously used his position of power as director of mainline FF to push his ego of "I'm a great writer with stories I long to tell the world" and choose his own scripts for his games.

he had a lot of story and script involvement for both games.

[Bebpo]

Type-0 is not written by Toriyama (in fact, it's actually written by Tabata afaik who directed it), and the script from the first 5-10 hours I've played is already leagues above the latest FF products.

KH BBS is one of the best stories SE has put out in the last few years and it was by a new lead writer with Masaru Oka.


When SE makes rpgs written by other people, the stories have the potential to be good.  With Toriyama + Watanabe combo they are doomed from the start to be trash.  I really hope XIII-2 is their final writing job.

[Bebpo]

Nojima is definitely much better at writing characters, scenarios and crafting unique worlds despite his faults.

Nojima is crazy, like very very crazy, and lots of plot twists, but that's a good thing because his stories are interesting and have a lot of complexity.  They also sometimes get distinguished mentally-challenged, but I'm willing to take some Genesis if that's what it takes to have an interesting story with good characters.

he had a lot of story and script involvement for both games.

Yeah, he looked over people's shoulders and said "hey, good job"

[Great Rumbler]

I played some Final Fantasy 7 yesterday and I made Cloud dress up as a woman so that he could be picked by a notorious crime lord/womanizer to become his bride, but this happened after I made him get raped by a group of muscle guys in a Jacuzzi. It was pretty awesome.

[recursivelyenumerable]

The lead scenario writer for Type-0 is actually Hiroki Chiba, who was the scenario writer and event director for Dirge of Cerberus. Which further supports my point.