Author Topic: US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP  (Read 6946720 times)

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curly

  • cultural maoist
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10020 on: October 30, 2017, 12:24:52 AM »
The Iraq war was worse and more destructive than anything perpetrated by the Russian government on domestic American politics. It's basically impossible to argue against that.

I hope that's a concrete example of part of what benji's trying to get across.

I maintain it's up to a nations people do decide their fate; while yes Americans have done far worse to their own democracy it's natural that would happen.

Undue influence on the scale of the Russians is morally wrong. And I condemn the U.S. for having done it in the past.

"In the past" lol

We did it to Haiti in 2010. Hillary said we should have done it to Palestine in 2006, if we were going to let them have an election at all. We assert our influence in foreign elections all the time, and to a far greater degree than Russia did to us.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10021 on: October 30, 2017, 12:46:44 AM »
The Iraq war was worse and more destructive than anything perpetrated by the Russian government on domestic American politics. It's basically impossible to argue against that.

I hope that's a concrete example of part of what benji's trying to get across.

I maintain it's up to a nations people do decide their fate; while yes Americans have done far worse to their own democracy it's natural that would happen.

Undue influence on the scale of the Russians is morally wrong. And I condemn the U.S. for having done it in the past.

"In the past" lol

We did it to Haiti in 2010. Hillary said we should have done it to Palestine in 2006, if we were going to let them have an election at all. We assert our influence in foreign elections all the time, and to a far greater degree than Russia did to us.

And we should stop.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10022 on: October 30, 2017, 01:12:00 AM »
The Iraq war was worse and more destructive than anything perpetrated by the Russian government on domestic American politics. It's basically impossible to argue against that.

I hope that's a concrete example of part of what benji's trying to get across.

I maintain it's up to a nations people do decide their fate; while yes Americans have done far worse to their own democracy it's natural that would happen.

Undue influence on the scale of the Russians is morally wrong. And I condemn the U.S. for having done it in the past.

"In the past" lol

We did it to Haiti in 2010. Hillary said we should have done it to Palestine in 2006, if we were going to let them have an election at all. We assert our influence in foreign elections all the time, and to a far greater degree than Russia did to us.

So what now though?

Between Benji and everyone else, we can talk about American failures of greater historical magnitude, personally perceived historical parallels, condemnable American actions abroad, the influencing nature of global interconnectivity, the evils of American hegemonic power, and the pop-psychology about why people are focusing on Russia until we are blue in the face, but it really just talks around the core issue here. Which is Russia's escalatory actions and how to deal with them.

It reminds me of when I fall into people on the left discussing the Islamic religion and the level of influence it exerts on middle east turmoil and extremism. You could build up an entire cottage industry around debating it, and TBH there kinda has been one built, and sure, it does have its value, but that debate monopolizes so much energy and focus that the issue that prompted the debate gets lost and goes unaddressed. Which is what to and how to deal with the extremism issue?

Which, once you move into that realm, you find a much more stable consensus, or at least plenty of common ground. Which makes you wonder why the fuck so much energy gets wasted on an issue that underlies something that the solutions in either camp or remarkably similar....Benji notwithstanding.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10023 on: October 30, 2017, 01:45:23 AM »
I wholly recognize the DNC has it's failings as does the democratic party but those of you on the left ignoring how evil, vile and depraved the current administration is with weak false equivalence and lamenting prior admins failures as being the same are fools.

Take care of the demons you can first, then focus on the sinners next. The DNC and the domestic issues within our own pale in comparison to the failures of the RNC and the GOP.
:trigger

The difference is they now turned it on the US. Which is not something that is a nothing-burger IMO. If other countries are the map to what Russia seeks in America, that is not something you can just scoff at and brush off. It is a major threat, which is different from saying it is the ultra causation to Trump's ascent.
but it really just talks around the core issue here. Which is Russia's escalatory actions and how to deal with them.
Except I have no reason to believe any of this as being true. Especially considering the last near hundred years of Russian foreign policy and actions within the United States. They infiltrated our intelligence agencies and weren't caught for decades. Russian spy larping was caught multiple times this century, most infamously Anna Chapman's Illegals Program. An incident which suggests we're just getting better at picking up on it. Not that there's any actual increase in demonstrable ability.

Remember, the same people making these claims have a vested interest in there always being justifications for their neverending war.


You think the asylum he got didn't come with strings attached?

Ya'll really are gullible fools if you think Russia's interference in 2016 was minor or simple distraction by democrats for losing.
If it was so major, why hasn't any evidence...nay, even claims or accusations...come out about what exactly they did that was so major?

Why would Snowden want to be in Russia practically as a prisoner or even mostly free? Plus where else is he going to go?

I mean yes America has it's faults, and we can and we should try to fix them and never fall into our old ways. That said to compare our crimes as a nation to what Putin and the Checkist are doing is naive at best and showing ulterior motives at worst.
The Iraq war was worse and more destructive than anything perpetrated by the Russian government on domestic American politics. It's basically impossible to argue against that.

I hope that's a concrete example of part of what benji's trying to get across.

I maintain it's up to a nations people do decide their fate; while yes Americans have done far worse to their own democracy it's natural that would happen.

Undue influence on the scale of the Russians is morally wrong. And I condemn the U.S. for having done it in the past.
You completely missed the point. A Presidential administration, their entire party, most of the opposition party, and large chunks of the media sold a war based on lies. I think that probably has done a lot more to erode the trust in American "democracy and institutions" than Russians posting stuff on the internet could ever do.

The most transparent administration in history led the largest crackdown on whistleblowers in modern history. They not only continued and expanded illegal domestic spying, but the DNI perjured himself in Congress over it. And then to top it all off the President declared he had the authority to murder American citizens in which their due process was himself (because he's "really good at killing people") and this was his defense as to having done it to two American citizens. All while assisting in the overthrowing of regimes across the Middle East including ones that were cooperated in turning over WMD, drawing red lines in the sand that were then ignored, expanding the ongoing global war to even more battlefields and playing a role in any nation that has an election.

Toss in all the domestic issue anger, such as bailouts, no prosecutions on Wall Street, everything regarding immigration, etc. and you can see why Americans might be lacking faith or trust in their institutions or democracy at a level that the Russians tossing more garbage into the mow of the internet does not signal any kind of actual threat on the scale that Americans themselves pose.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10024 on: October 30, 2017, 01:46:22 AM »
And we should stop.
That would be acting against American interests and allow our declared enemies like Russia, Iran and Canada to fill the vacuum.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10025 on: October 30, 2017, 01:57:54 AM »
I wholly recognize the DNC has it's failings as does the democratic party but those of you on the left ignoring how evil, vile and depraved the current administration is with weak false equivalence and lamenting prior admins failures as being the same are fools.

Take care of the demons you can first, then focus on the sinners next. The DNC and the domestic issues within our own pale in comparison to the failures of the RNC and the GOP.
:trigger

The difference is they now turned it on the US. Which is not something that is a nothing-burger IMO. If other countries are the map to what Russia seeks in America, that is not something you can just scoff at and brush off. It is a major threat, which is different from saying it is the ultra causation to Trump's ascent.
but it really just talks around the core issue here. Which is Russia's escalatory actions and how to deal with them.
Except I have no reason to believe any of this as being true. Especially considering the last near hundred years of Russian foreign policy and actions within the United States. They infiltrated our intelligence agencies and weren't caught for decades. Russian spy larping was caught multiple times this century, most infamously Anna Chapman's Illegals Program. An incident which suggests we're just getting better at picking up on it. Not that there's any actual increase in demonstrable ability.

I can't really add much if you are going to etoilet this issue. Perhaps they did have weaponized troll farms and hacking groups beyond the espionage actions commonly uncovered in the past, like we have evidence of occurring in this most recent election, ones that potentially succeeded in influencing our elections before 2016. We don't have any evidence of that publicly available, but even if we did or we want to assume they were, the same core questions still remain unanswered by this line of approach.



Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10026 on: October 30, 2017, 02:09:32 AM »
At least you're consistent in your outrage Benji. But whataboutisms won't change the fact that Russia did in fact meddle in our electoral process and Trump most likely worked with them.

Why do you want to let Trump go?

curly

  • cultural maoist
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10027 on: October 30, 2017, 02:17:14 AM »

So what now though?

Between Benji and everyone else, we can talk about American failures of greater historical magnitude, personally perceived historical parallels, condemnable American actions abroad, the influencing nature of global interconnectivity, the evils of American hegemonic power, and the pop-psychology about why people are focusing on Russia until we are blue in the face, but it really just talks around the core issue here. Which is Russia's escalatory actions and how to deal with them.

It reminds me of when I fall into people on the left discussing the Islamic religion and the level of influence it exerts on middle east turmoil and extremism. You could build up an entire cottage industry around debating it, and TBH there kinda has been one built, and sure, it does have its value, but that debate monopolizes so much energy and focus that the issue that prompted the debate gets lost and goes unaddressed. Which is what to and how to deal with the extremism issue?

Which, once you move into that realm, you find a much more stable consensus, or at least plenty of common ground. Which makes you wonder why the fuck so much energy gets wasted on an issue that underlies something that the solutions in either camp or remarkably similar....Benji notwithstanding.

At most, sanctions that target high-level members of Russian politics and the oligarchy, provided they don't negatively affect the Russian people as a whole; if that is impossible, I would prefer no action by the US government to an escalation of hostilities with Russia.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
long term solution seize the means of production and create a borderless worker's paradise
[close]

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10028 on: October 30, 2017, 02:19:25 AM »

So what now though?

Between Benji and everyone else, we can talk about American failures of greater historical magnitude, personally perceived historical parallels, condemnable American actions abroad, the influencing nature of global interconnectivity, the evils of American hegemonic power, and the pop-psychology about why people are focusing on Russia until we are blue in the face, but it really just talks around the core issue here. Which is Russia's escalatory actions and how to deal with them.

It reminds me of when I fall into people on the left discussing the Islamic religion and the level of influence it exerts on middle east turmoil and extremism. You could build up an entire cottage industry around debating it, and TBH there kinda has been one built, and sure, it does have its value, but that debate monopolizes so much energy and focus that the issue that prompted the debate gets lost and goes unaddressed. Which is what to and how to deal with the extremism issue?

Which, once you move into that realm, you find a much more stable consensus, or at least plenty of common ground. Which makes you wonder why the fuck so much energy gets wasted on an issue that underlies something that the solutions in either camp or remarkably similar....Benji notwithstanding.

At most, sanctions that target high-level members of Russian politics and the oligarchy, provided they don't negatively affect the Russian people as a whole; if that is impossible, I would prefer no action by the US government to an escalation of hostilities with Russia.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
long term solution seize the means of production and create a borderless worker's paradise
[close]

They escalated the matter, to not answer would be the same sin the European powers committed with Germany's aggression in  the late 30s.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10029 on: October 30, 2017, 02:20:09 AM »
I can't really add much if you are going to etoilet this issue. Perhaps they did have weaponized troll farms and hacking groups beyond the espionage actions commonly uncovered in the past, like we have evidence of occurring in this most recent election, ones that potentially succeeded in influencing our elections before 2016. We don't have any evidence of that publicly available, but even if we did or we want to assume they were, the same core questions still remain unanswered by this line of approach.

Well you certainly can add intended insults I see. As such, the phrase "weaponized troll farms" is one of those examples of hysterical hyperbole that makes the Russian conspiracy theorists look like Gamergate conspiracy theorists.

Most hacking and similar by Russia, China, Israel and other nations is large scale corporate espionage, so nobody in the entrenched DC media gives a shit, but it's near constant and beyond any level thus claimed to have occurred on any legitimate targets during the 2016 election. In which their two "big gets" were when they got John Podesta and two DNC staffers to fall for a phishing scheme.

As the media helpfully explained when it was Trump suggesting illegitimate hacked elections, our decentralized processes makes any kind of manipulation efforts a fools errand.

And I still see no evidence that they succeeded in influencing our elections anymore than any other discussion of outsiders, foreign nations or events ever has. We can't truly know if the cat is dead or not until we open the box.

The only "core question" is when America will stop seeking out boogeymen abroad to prop up as existential evils rather than deal with any crimes or even issues at home. Probably never considering how well it works as self-justification.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10030 on: October 30, 2017, 02:22:47 AM »
They escalated the matter, to not answer would be the same sin the European powers committed with Germany's aggression in  the late 30s.
At least you're consistent in your outrage Benji. But whataboutisms won't change the fact that Russia did in fact meddle in our electoral process and Trump most likely worked with them.

Why do you want to let Trump go?
Get a better set of talking points. These were stale at least six months ago.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10031 on: October 30, 2017, 02:23:39 AM »
Well you certain can add intended insults I see. As such, the phrase "weaponized troll farms" is one of those examples of hysterical hyperbole that makes the Russian conspiracy theorists look like Gamergate conspiracy theorists.

Most hacking and similar by Russia, China, Israel and other nations is large scale corporate espionage, so nobody in the entrenched DC media gives a shit, but it's near constant and beyond any level thus claimed to have occurred on any legitimate targets during the 2016 election. In which their two "big gets" were when they got John Podesta and two DNC staffers to fall for a phishing scheme.

As the media helpfully explained when it was Trump suggesting illegitimate hacked elections, our decentralized processes makes any kind of manipulation efforts a fools errand.

And I still see no evidence that they succeeded in influencing our elections anymore than any other discussion of outsiders, foreign nations or events ever has. We can't truly know if the cat is dead or not until we open the box.

The only "core question" is when America will stop seeking out boogeymen abroad to prop up as existential evils rather than deal with any crimes or even issues at home. Probably never considering how well it works as self-justification.

Benji no one here is saying America is blameless or sinless; or that we ignore our faults. But to ignore what Trump has done and allow it to continue is to allow the republic to fall.


etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10032 on: October 30, 2017, 02:23:41 AM »
It's going to be weird when ppl figure out that guy in Trump's group that was heavily against continued military expansion and blowing up more brown people in the desert was the guy they think is an alt-right white nationalist.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10033 on: October 30, 2017, 02:24:20 AM »
They escalated the matter, to not answer would be the same sin the European powers committed with Germany's aggression in  the late 30s.
At least you're consistent in your outrage Benji. But whataboutisms won't change the fact that Russia did in fact meddle in our electoral process and Trump most likely worked with them.

Why do you want to let Trump go?
Get a better set of talking points. These were stale at least six months ago.

Saying America is bad so let it go was stale since forever.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10034 on: October 30, 2017, 02:24:58 AM »
It's going to be weird when ppl figure out that guy in Trump's group that was heavily against continued military expansion and blowing up more brown people in the desert was the guy they think is an alt-right white nationalist.

Please tell me you're not talking about Bannon.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10035 on: October 30, 2017, 02:26:03 AM »
Saying America is bad so let it go was stale since forever.
No one has said this except you.

But to ignore what Trump has done and allow it to continue is to allow the republic to fall.
Like I said, these talking points are stale.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10036 on: October 30, 2017, 02:26:25 AM »



At most, sanctions that target high-level members of Russian politics and the oligarchy, provided they don't negatively affect the Russian people as a whole; if that is impossible, I would prefer no action by the US government to an escalation of hostilities with Russia.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
long term solution seize the means of production and create a borderless worker's paradise
[close]

See, some common ground lol.

Though I think a choice of inaction is unfortunately action in its own right. Just one that signals an invitation to continue and intensify such efforts knowing no consequences will follow.

etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10037 on: October 30, 2017, 02:26:28 AM »
I am talking about Bannon. If he was as he props himself up to be, then he certainly was against our Syrian strikes and against continued military actions.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10038 on: October 30, 2017, 02:27:19 AM »
Saying America is bad so let it go was stale since forever.
No one has said this except you.

But to ignore what Trump has done and allow it to continue is to allow the republic to fall.
Like I said, these talking points are stale.

And the attitude that this Russian thing is overplayed is foolish. Other countries spy on each other, but they shouldn't involve themselves in other countries elections. USA included.

curly

  • cultural maoist
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10039 on: October 30, 2017, 02:27:30 AM »
It's going to be weird when ppl figure out that guy in Trump's group that was heavily against continued military expansion and blowing up more brown people in the desert was the guy they think is an alt-right white nationalist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_Committee

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10040 on: October 30, 2017, 02:28:23 AM »
I am talking about Bannon. If he was as he props himself up to be, then he certainly was against our Syrian strikes and against continued military actions.

 :gurl

I will give you the anti-interventionist but he is alt-right.

He works for Breitbart.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10041 on: October 30, 2017, 02:30:14 AM »
Though I think a choice of inaction is unfortunately action in its own right. Just one that signals an invitation to continue and intensify such efforts knowing no consequences will follow.
If you're concerned with Russian escalation then why would you want to intensify American escalation towards acts of war against them? By the Trump Administration no less.

And the attitude that this Russian thing is overplayed is foolish. Other countries spy on each other, but they shouldn't involve themselves in other countries elections. USA included.
What makes Presidential elections so sacred as to opposed to the daily politics and/or operation of everything in the country including the entire national security apparatus and military?  ???

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10042 on: October 30, 2017, 02:35:32 AM »
Though I think a choice of inaction is unfortunately action in its own right. Just one that signals an invitation to continue and intensify such efforts knowing no consequences will follow.
If you're concerned with Russian escalation then why would you want to intensify American escalation towards acts of war against them? By the Trump Administration no less.

And the attitude that this Russian thing is overplayed is foolish. Other countries spy on each other, but they shouldn't involve themselves in other countries elections. USA included.
What makes Presidential elections so sacred as to opposed to the daily politics and/or operation of everything in the country including the entire national security apparatus and military?  ???

They should all be sacred. Native citizens and communities should be free to decide their own fates, and the consequences of their actions thereafter. This means NO foreign  influence outside of commentary or opinions from the outside.

Stealing emails, forging fake twitters, FB pages and ads to target divisive issues whilst attempting to drive wedges for one side and unite another with a clear candidate in mind is wrong.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10043 on: October 30, 2017, 02:38:00 AM »
This means NO foreign  influence outside of commentary or opinions from the outside.
Lobbying? Business/Trade? Everything that involves foreign policy itself? Etc.

Stealing emails, forging fake twitters, FB pages and ads to target divisive issues whilst attempting to drive wedges for one side and unite another with a clear candidate in mind is wrong.
What should the Federal Government have done against these nefarious fake twitters, Facebook pages and online ads that swung the election for Trump?

etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10044 on: October 30, 2017, 02:41:16 AM »
The question is if you admit that everyone is doing this and that we (the US) probably do it more and better than everything else, then why are we focused on just one country doing it right now when the election and distrust was impacted by real information rather than disinformation?

This is ignoring that you could not stop things like twitter bots without going the China route.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10045 on: October 30, 2017, 02:41:46 AM »
This means NO foreign  influence outside of commentary or opinions from the outside.
Lobbying? Business/Trade? Everything that involves foreign policy itself? Etc.

Stealing emails, forging fake twitters, FB pages and ads to target divisive issues whilst attempting to drive wedges for one side and unite another with a clear candidate in mind is wrong.
What should the Federal Government have done against these nefarious fake twitters, Facebook pages and online ads that swung the election for Trump?

Business/trade/lobbying/etc would remain as is? Undue influence means not using those things to get your way in a political process. I am of the opinion America should have used it's power to be world police; not become DEMOCRACY BUILDERS TM. This means letting the people decide what they want and defending young democracy's from bad actors.

The government should have censored them after proving and verifying which one's were domestic and which were foreign bourne.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10046 on: October 30, 2017, 02:42:52 AM »
We had to destroy the Republic to stop it from falling due to twitter bots I guess.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10047 on: October 30, 2017, 02:45:58 AM »
The question is if you admit that everyone is doing this and that we (the US) probably do it more and better than everything else, then why are we focused on just one country doing it right now when the election and distrust was impacted by real information rather than disinformation?

Except
A)I want us to stop
B) Because Trump is what is the core issue; Russia is ancillary.
C) Because I live in said country and
D) What real information? Seemingly a majority of the "info" was fake news, gas lighting and dishonest "facts". The only real issues were Hillary's ties to the banks, EMAILZ and a manufactured controversy in Banghazi(Which was caused by a GOP led congress). The fact that those issues were then elevated to the same level as Trumps very real, documented and far worse controversies was aided by Russian influence; that was seemingly asked by the Trump group.

Hillary was a bad candidate, and without Russia may/may not have won. The principle is Trump has seemingly broken the law(numerous apparently) and is currently using his office to commit illegal acts and corruption. Everything Hillary was accused of Trump is blowing past.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10048 on: October 30, 2017, 02:46:42 AM »
We had to destroy the Republic to stop it from falling due to twitter bots I guess.

Benji you and I are on a similar side, our Republic is rotten and needs fixing. I just don't agree perhaps with your methods and/or ideas behind it.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10049 on: October 30, 2017, 02:48:25 AM »
I merely wish to dissolve the people and elect another.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10050 on: October 30, 2017, 02:49:38 AM »
I merely wish to dissolve the people and elect another.

 :confused

etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10051 on: October 30, 2017, 02:55:21 AM »
You are more subverted by the US press and general hysteria than any voter was by Russian twitter bots.

Ask this: If you are now aware of how much this goes on and how we meddle in places we shouldn't then why are US outlets pretty laissez faire with this phenomena? What is their military action coverage like? Do they even send reporters on the ground to military zones? Do they question why we're at war all over the planet? Do they mindlessly read off details of our missiles as if that's the news? We sent people to Niger years ago. It's only a news item now.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10052 on: October 30, 2017, 02:58:22 AM »
You are more subverted by the US press and general hysteria than any voter was by Russian twitter bots.

Ask this: If you are now aware of how much this goes on and how we meddle in places we shouldn't then why are US outlets pretty laissez faire with this phenomena? What is their military action coverage like? Do they even send reporters on the ground to military zones? Do they question why we're at war all over the planet? Do they mindlessly read off details of our missiles as if that's the news? We sent people to Niger years ago. It's only a news item now.

See...this is whataboutism. I acknowledge the U.S. faults and said that we need to fix them. This does nothing to refute Russia's actions and Trumps seeming treason.

I don't mind that you argue America is imperialist and flawed. I'm bother that you think this absolves Trump of his actions.

etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10053 on: October 30, 2017, 02:59:46 AM »
I wanted you to question the people that made you think Trump is working with the Russians to win him the election when they've provided no proof of that.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10054 on: October 30, 2017, 03:02:51 AM »


Well you certainly can add intended insults I see. As such, the phrase "weaponized troll farms" is one of those examples of hysterical hyperbole that makes the Russian conspiracy theorists look like Gamergate conspiracy theorists.

Most hacking and similar by Russia, China, Israel and other nations is large scale corporate espionage, so nobody in the entrenched DC media gives a shit, but it's near constant and beyond any level thus claimed to have occurred on any legitimate targets during the 2016 election. In which their two "big gets" were when they got John Podesta and two DNC staffers to fall for a phishing scheme.

As the media helpfully explained when it was Trump suggesting illegitimate hacked elections, our decentralized processes makes any kind of manipulation efforts a fools errand.

And I still see no evidence that they succeeded in influencing our elections anymore than any other discussion of outsiders, foreign nations or events ever has. We can't truly know if the cat is dead or not until we open the box.

The only "core question" is when America will stop seeking out boogeymen abroad to prop up as existential evils rather than deal with any crimes or even issues at home. Probably never considering how well it works as self-justification.
Choice of phrase aside, it isn't an inaccurate description of what the purpose and function of those groups are. They weren't espionage groups, they were purposed to affect.

Cyber espionage is and was the typical plane that power nations like China, America, and Russia played around on when it comes to engaging one another(along with many of our own allies). What we have now is evidence of Russia going from espionage to engaging in a particular set of active cyber operations(with a side of potential collusion) purposed to influence our country's governing capacity and political process, that may or may not of existed to this level prior to the 2016 campaign, and that knowledge naturally advances the next question of what do you do about this particular issue? Or do you choose to do nothing and why?

I made my case earlier today about the level of influence I would feel safe attributing to these operations as of right now, and how I think it has materialized, I feel pretty confident in that and that I am not over-stepping too much in that assessment. But I think it is ultimately more of a red herring than anything, because at the end of the day it happened and by all accounts will continue to happen, so either something is done or it isn't, and all choices have consequences.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 03:20:26 AM by Nola »

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10055 on: October 30, 2017, 03:18:37 AM »
I wanted you to question the people that made you think Trump is working with the Russians to win him the election when they've provided no proof of that.

I mean, Trump himself has done more to make that argument then any news outlet could.

He still hasn't reuped the sanctions that passed the house and senate.  :idont

benjipwns

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Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10057 on: October 30, 2017, 03:23:17 AM »
I wanted you to question the people that made you think Trump is working with the Russians to win him the election when they've provided no proof of that.

I mean, Trump himself has done more to make that argument then any news outlet could.

He still hasn't reuped the sanctions that passed the house and senate.  :idont

To be fair its hard to decide whether that is actually malfeasance or just everyday Trump administration incompetence.


EDIT: Response works for either sentence honestly.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 03:28:00 AM by Nola »

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10058 on: October 30, 2017, 03:28:47 AM »
The Whitefish contract for Puerto Rico reconstruction is being revoked.

Like the Tom Price thing, it's almost weird to see a scandal play out in the "standard" way.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10059 on: October 30, 2017, 03:29:17 AM »
I wanted you to question the people that made you think Trump is working with the Russians to win him the election when they've provided no proof of that.

I mean, Trump himself has done more to make that argument then any news outlet could.

He still hasn't reuped the sanctions that passed the house and senate.  :idont

To be fair its hard to decide whether that is actually malfeasance or just everyday Trump administration incompetence.


EDIT: Response works for either sentence honestly.

I mean it would be if he didn't have a pattern of behavior with Russia and Russians.

archie4208

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10060 on: October 30, 2017, 08:19:13 AM »
Manafort down.

Human Snorenado

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10061 on: October 30, 2017, 08:31:54 AM »
Oh nice, etoilet is back to let us know that Steve Bannon is not, in fact, an alt-right shitburger. Did you discover that during your exhaustive search for Seth Rich's real killer?
yar


VomKriege

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10063 on: October 30, 2017, 08:47:45 AM »
To retread my original point, I'm glad the discussion will be transitioning, thanks to investigations, from the nebulous Russian "hacking" to actual suspicions of corruption and collusion which are much more tangible and damning for the administration.
ὕβρις

kingv

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10064 on: October 30, 2017, 09:48:37 AM »
Those charges are more serious than I expected. They must have some serious shit on him.

Also to Benji and others saying that America has done worse so the Russia thing isn’t bad. Seeing the charges made me realize the big difference between trumps treason and Bushs Iraq War (and other stuff). Ostensibly, Bush was taking actions that he thought were in the best interest of the country. Trump did not. He was taking actions that were in the best interest of himself and a foreign country, without regard to how it would or would not affect the United States. Once you accept that as ok, all bets are off.

People argue that Bush’s Iraq War was done to enrich himself or whatever, but I have never seen anything that makes me think he didn’t think he was doing the right thing (even as he obviously wasn’t to many people).

Boogie

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10065 on: October 30, 2017, 10:19:06 AM »


--John McMurtry, FRSC is University Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the University of Guelph, Canada. McMurtry was named a Fellow of the Royal Society of Canada (FRSC) in June 2001 by his peers for his outstanding contributions to the study of humanities and social sciences

https://www.globalresearch.ca/u-s-holds-the-world-record-of-killings-innocent-civilians/5393789

University of Guelph  :neogaf
MMA

VomKriege

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10066 on: October 30, 2017, 10:33:57 AM »
A foreign policy advisor to Trump also pleaded guilty a while back (non publicized at the time) for lying to the FBI.
ὕβρις

zomgee

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10067 on: October 30, 2017, 11:02:41 AM »
rub

Barry Egan

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10068 on: October 30, 2017, 11:05:13 AM »
yea the Papadopolous stuff is actually way more intriguing. 

https://twitter.com/matthewamiller/status/925008563600347138?

:putin

Phoenix Dark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10069 on: October 30, 2017, 11:05:24 AM »
Typical fed move. Start with conspirators and get them to flip on bigger target. Gotta think Page and Kusher are fucked. Flynn is guilty of multiple crimes and hasn't been indicted...maybe he flipped already?
A foreign policy advisor to Trump also pleaded guilty a while back (non publicized at the time) for lying to the FBI.

He's also cooperating with the Feds.
https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/925008363645259777
https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/925009252774809601
010

zomgee

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rub

zomgee

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10071 on: October 30, 2017, 11:09:46 AM »
If there was ever a time for his advisers to take his phone away, today is the day to do it.
rub

VomKriege

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10072 on: October 30, 2017, 11:15:47 AM »
I can't believe Trump's entourage could have been so inept. Nobody could see that coming !
ὕβρις

VomKriege

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10073 on: October 30, 2017, 11:17:19 AM »
If there was ever a time for his advisers to take his phone away, today is the day to do it.

Probably time to call the Impossible Mission Force to gaslight him about nuclear apocalypse and keep him quiet into the White House bunker.
ὕβρις

Phoenix Dark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10074 on: October 30, 2017, 11:19:18 AM »
I wouldn't say the other news is the "real story" of today tho. Manafort was the campaign manager after all...the fact that the Feds are starting with high level campaign officials instead of a secretary or some shit should tell you they have a lot of evidence, and somebody is going to jail for a long time.

I always felt Trump would escape collusion/treason charges by basically being the willing idiot. But Kushner and the gang are fucked, and Trump could easily get hit with obstruction of justice and other charges.
010

joe_zazen

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10075 on: October 30, 2017, 11:23:44 AM »
.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 09:05:50 AM by joe_zazen »

Brehvolution

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10076 on: October 30, 2017, 11:36:04 AM »
Watching faux news in mega spin this morning is just super embarrassing for them and the militant rightists. Must defend trump at all costs. Hope it costs them everything.
©ZH

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10077 on: October 30, 2017, 11:39:28 AM »
Watching faux news in mega spin this morning is just super embarrassing for them and the militant rightists. Must defend trump at all costs. Hope it costs them everything.
It won’t.

Joe Molotov

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10078 on: October 30, 2017, 11:39:45 AM »
What the over-under on the amount of time it takes for Trump to step right in the middle or this and either start issuing pardons or pink slips? One week? One day? By lunchtime?
©@©™

zomgee

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bring Obama Back Already #boba
« Reply #10079 on: October 30, 2017, 11:41:04 AM »
What the over-under on the amount of time it takes for Trump to step right in the middle or this and either start issuing pardons or pink slips? One week? One day? By lunchtime?

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/357783-trump-to-lunch-with-sessions-amid-manafort-charges
rub