Author Topic: Other Forums |OT| ♀ C O R E V A L U E S ♀ Sponsored By THQNordic  (Read 7927174 times)

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marrec

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52860 on: January 16, 2019, 12:32:55 PM »
like I can afford a crack addition lol

HaughtyFrank

  • Haughty and a little naughty
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52861 on: January 16, 2019, 12:32:59 PM »
Could you guys knot?

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52862 on: January 16, 2019, 12:33:40 PM »
like I can afford a crack addition lol

Just get some meth instead. :p

PogiJones

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52863 on: January 16, 2019, 12:34:43 PM »
What is "cigarillo" I keep seeing? Is it a word filter? Or some slang I'm not aware of?

Edit : oh, I just figured it out from the context of the Westboro Baptist Church sentence
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 12:40:44 PM by PogiJones »

BIONIC

  • Virgo. Live Music. The Office. Tacos. Fur mom. True crime junkie. INTJ.
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52864 on: January 16, 2019, 12:36:12 PM »
He didn’t deny the other two  :aweshum
Margs

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52865 on: January 16, 2019, 12:37:16 PM »
What is "cigarillo" I keep seeing? Is it a word filter? Or some slang in not aware of?

I think it's a word filter for gay.

gay

Edit: not it isn't lol

cigarillo

edit 2: Ha, it's f.ag

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52866 on: January 16, 2019, 12:39:42 PM »
Imagine arguing with a well-known and professionally certified transphobe, crack head, and cuckk like marrec  :joker

cukkk

Coitus

  • Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52867 on: January 16, 2019, 12:39:47 PM »
Defending the principles of free expression means being forced to defend shitheels who abuse free expression, because the principle is that important.
The ACLU don't like the idea that the Westboro Baptist Church will go to a dead veterans funeral and hold placards and shout at mourning relatives that they're glad their kid got killed because he was a cigarillo and god hates him, but they believe in the principle that they should be allowed to do that, as distasteful as that is.

Because thats what principles are. If they're worth anything at all they're not something you abandon when it becomes awkward or inconvenient to adhere to.

You're fine with people you don't like being 'deplatformed'. Good for you.
But the point of Martin Niemöller's famous quote is if you let people you don't give a shit about get thrown under the bus, what happens when people you do care about are in the same position?
What, you're fine with people you don't even know with zero obligations to do anything but what they want to do be in charge of that?
Is it completely out of the realms of possibility that a fundamentalist religious organisation could buy a controlling stake in one of these publicly traded companies?
Then what do you do when they're 'deplatforming' things like teachers teaching the theory of evolution instead of creationism? People offering sexual education? Access to abortions? Gay rights advocates?

Is that when you speak up and say "hey, wait a minute, nobody told me letting other people make these kinds of decisions meant someday it would affect people I don't think are bad guys"?
Because thats the point of that fucking Martin Niemöller quote. He's telling you that right fucking now.


also
/carepost

Cigarillo, eh? I like it. lol

It's an interesting discussion. Libertarians for instance actually support the right of these companies to ban whoever they please because they very strongly believe in the concept of property rights. I think they have a point to a degree in that allowing the government to have a bigger say in what or in whom private businesses do business with could be potentially dangerous further down the line.

However, the counter argument is the internet has become like the public square. It has increasingly become the place in which people gather to spread ideas and debate. These tech companies have got so big that they basically control the internet. What's more they're colluding with each other. So for example Sargon of Akkad was banned from patreon so he decided to move to SubscribeStar. Not so long after doing so PayPal pulled out from SubscribeStar leaving it without a payment processor. Alex Jones was banned almost simultaneously from multiple different platforms in a way that seems like they were colluding with each other. The libertarian argument would be to create a new platform that allows free speech to thrive, but that is not so easy when Silicon Valley pretty much has aa stranglehold on the internet. What happened to Gab is another example of how Silicon Valley has colluded with each other to topple a platform that is pro-free speech.

Should the internet be considered a public utility? Have platforms like Google got so big that they should be compelled to protect free speech?

It's a difficult question to answer because the issue of property rights and the right for privately owned businesses to decide who they do and don't want to business with is a valid one. On the other hand, silicon Valley has such stranglehold on the internet it is becoming increasingly difficult to provide alternatives that allow for the flourishing of different opinions and political viewpoints.

Just fucking type infowars.com into your browser and there you go.  All the Alex Jones you could ever want.  Type Sargon of Akkad into the youtube search, same deal. 

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52868 on: January 16, 2019, 12:40:59 PM »
free speech != right to any platform you want

james

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  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52869 on: January 16, 2019, 12:41:11 PM »
What is "cigarillo" I keep seeing? Is it a word filter? Or some slang I'm not aware of?

Edit : oh, I just figured it out from the context of the Westboro Baptist Church sentence

That ones easy because its correct.

I dont get cheeseburger though
:O

Jansen

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52870 on: January 16, 2019, 12:49:11 PM »
I don't give a fuck about you 50ppp pieces of shit you fucking fucker

I copy/paste the link cuz I'm crazy like that

Why even post a link here, with no quotes or anything, when the link doesn't work for anyone else? Is this thread your personal link journal?

Why don't you smash ur keyboard in frustration and slash ur neck with the plastic

Jansen

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52871 on: January 16, 2019, 12:54:18 PM »
Everyone loves boss baby

Uncle

  • Have You Ever
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52872 on: January 16, 2019, 12:55:29 PM »
Defending the principles of free expression means being forced to defend shitheels who abuse free expression, because the principle is that important.
The ACLU don't like the idea that the Westboro Baptist Church will go to a dead veterans funeral and hold placards and shout at mourning relatives that they're glad their kid got killed because he was a cigarillo and god hates him, but they believe in the principle that they should be allowed to do that, as distasteful as that is.

Because thats what principles are. If they're worth anything at all they're not something you abandon when it becomes awkward or inconvenient to adhere to.

I know what you mean, I defend furries because I believe in the principle of respect for all people, but sometimes I wonder if it's worth the emotional toll. I feel like the public defender who is ethically forced to get a guilty client off on a technicality.

You can fight for the right of furries to exist, but that shouldn't stop you from making fun of them.

That's the primary reason you fight for their right to exist

It would decrease the net amount of schadenfreude-based joy in the world
Uncle

marrec

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52873 on: January 16, 2019, 12:55:53 PM »
Boss Baby was a better movie than interstellar

stufte

  • Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52874 on: January 16, 2019, 12:59:25 PM »
Boss Baby was a better movie than interstellar

I will cut you.

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52875 on: January 16, 2019, 01:00:57 PM »
Defending the principles of free expression means being forced to defend shitheels who abuse free expression, because the principle is that important.
The ACLU don't like the idea that the Westboro Baptist Church will go to a dead veterans funeral and hold placards and shout at mourning relatives that they're glad their kid got killed because he was a cigarillo and god hates him, but they believe in the principle that they should be allowed to do that, as distasteful as that is.

Because thats what principles are. If they're worth anything at all they're not something you abandon when it becomes awkward or inconvenient to adhere to.

You're fine with people you don't like being 'deplatformed'. Good for you.
But the point of Martin Niemöller's famous quote is if you let people you don't give a shit about get thrown under the bus, what happens when people you do care about are in the same position?
What, you're fine with people you don't even know with zero obligations to do anything but what they want to do be in charge of that?
Is it completely out of the realms of possibility that a fundamentalist religious organisation could buy a controlling stake in one of these publicly traded companies?
Then what do you do when they're 'deplatforming' things like teachers teaching the theory of evolution instead of creationism? People offering sexual education? Access to abortions? Gay rights advocates?

Is that when you speak up and say "hey, wait a minute, nobody told me letting other people make these kinds of decisions meant someday it would affect people I don't think are bad guys"?
Because thats the point of that fucking Martin Niemöller quote. He's telling you that right fucking now.


also
/carepost

Cigarillo, eh? I like it. lol

It's an interesting discussion. Libertarians for instance actually support the right of these companies to ban whoever they please because they very strongly believe in the concept of property rights. I think they have a point to a degree in that allowing the government to have a bigger say in what or in whom private businesses do business with could be potentially dangerous further down the line.

However, the counter argument is the internet has become like the public square. It has increasingly become the place in which people gather to spread ideas and debate. These tech companies have got so big that they basically control the internet. What's more they're colluding with each other. So for example Sargon of Akkad was banned from patreon so he decided to move to SubscribeStar. Not so long after doing so PayPal pulled out from SubscribeStar leaving it without a payment processor. Alex Jones was banned almost simultaneously from multiple different platforms in a way that seems like they were colluding with each other. The libertarian argument would be to create a new platform that allows free speech to thrive, but that is not so easy when Silicon Valley pretty much has aa stranglehold on the internet. What happened to Gab is another example of how Silicon Valley has colluded with each other to topple a platform that is pro-free speech.

Should the internet be considered a public utility? Have platforms like Google got so big that they should be compelled to protect free speech?

It's a difficult question to answer because the issue of property rights and the right for privately owned businesses to decide who they do and don't want to business with is a valid one. On the other hand, silicon Valley has such stranglehold on the internet it is becoming increasingly difficult to provide alternatives that allow for the flourishing of different opinions and political viewpoints.

Just fucking type infowars.com into your browser and there you go.  All the Alex Jones you could ever want.  Type Sargon of Akkad into the youtube search, same deal.

I made two arguments and never came to a conclusion on which is the right one. I think both arguments have a point. And that makes it difficult to come to a conclusion on what to do exactly.

That said, it's the trend that is worrying. It's not easy for instance to provide videos that are going to reach an audience when video or streaming platforms will not host you. Alex Jones has increasingly run into that problem. No one will host him. Also in terms of payment processing, the same thing. PayPal will not allow him to use the service for instance.

In fact today another platform removed him.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46890014

It's not that it is impossible to create your own platform and service, it is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to create a service when you are having to rely on other platforms to provide that service. Heck, Google in the future could turn around and block all search results for Alex Jones if they wanted.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 01:33:50 PM by Leadbelly »

GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

  • Dumbass Monkey
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52876 on: January 16, 2019, 01:03:46 PM »
Should the internet be considered a public utility? Have platforms like Google got so big that they should be compelled to protect free speech?

Many of these companies have argued that they are legally equivalent to being utility companies so that they can benefit from 'safe harbour' provisions and not be held legally liable for the content that they host.

You can't sue Twitter for something somebody using Twitter says, as they have declared themselves legally exempt from having editorial control, whereas anything a newspaper prints a newspaper is legally liable for by contrast.

So it is certainly very convenient for these companies that they can absolve themselves from any legal liability for hosting content by claiming they have no editorial control, while simultaneously exerting editorial control over what content they allow to be hosted.

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52877 on: January 16, 2019, 01:07:37 PM »
Should the internet be considered a public utility? Have platforms like Google got so big that they should be compelled to protect free speech?

Many of these companies have argued that they are legally equivalent to being utility companies so that they can benefit from 'safe harbour' provisions and not be held legally liable for the content that they host.

You can't sue Twitter for something somebody using Twitter says, as they have declared themselves legally exempt from having editorial control, whereas anything a newspaper prints a newspaper is legally liable for by contrast.

So it is certainly very convenient for these companies that they can absolve themselves from any legal liability for hosting content by claiming they have no editorial control, while simultaneously exerting editorial control over what content they allow to be hosted.

Yeah. That's true. I've heard people argue that if they refuse to uphold free speech then they should be made to act as a publisher and liable for anything that is published on their platform.


Uncle

  • Have You Ever
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52879 on: January 16, 2019, 01:21:03 PM »
The patreon shit is the most concerning

Yes they need to remove scams, calls to violence, the most clear-cut instances of harassment

But when resetera's Tsampikos is allowed to ply his trade but political pundit morons like Sargon get banned?  what the fuck

Sargon is a buffoon but I've seen some of his videos and he's not at all dangerous or damaging toward anyone except maybe his own arguments

I don't care whether Alex Jones has a platform to host his rants or not but I do care when we get to the point of financial companies saying "I have decided this individual should not be able to earn money"
Uncle

GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

  • Dumbass Monkey
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52880 on: January 16, 2019, 01:22:00 PM »

Yeah. That's true. I've heard people argue that if they refuse to uphold free speech then they should be made to act as a publisher and liable for anything that is published on their platform.

Which when you consider the scope involved of overseeing the volume of content, is entirely unfeasible.
So the utility argument has merit, but an electric company can't be sued if, say, someone uses that electricity to run a brothel, or a meth lab, or to commit fraud.
Just as an electric company can't deny service to convicted felons, people on a sexual offenders register, or people propagating hate speech.
And most reasonable people would not consider that a 'problem' that needs to be 'fixed'.

marrec

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52881 on: January 16, 2019, 01:27:01 PM »
The patreon shit is the most concerning

Yes they need to remove scams, calls to violence, the most clear-cut instances of harassment

But when resetera's Tsampikos is allowed to ply his trade but political pundit morons like Sargon get banned?  what the fuck

Sargon is a buffoon but I've seen some of his videos and he's not at all dangerous or damaging toward anyone except maybe his own arguments

I don't care whether Alex Jones has a platform to host his rants or not but I do care when we get to the point of financial companies saying "I have decided this individual should not be able to earn money"

The patreon shit is the same as the youtube shit they don't have to host anyone on their platform if they don't want too (barring protected classes and such), this just isn't that deep. The alternative, forcing companies to provide services to anyone, is far more egregiously unconstitutional than what we have now.

stufte

  • Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior Senior
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52882 on: January 16, 2019, 01:29:44 PM »
The patreon shit is the most concerning

Yes they need to remove scams, calls to violence, the most clear-cut instances of harassment

But when resetera's Tsampikos is allowed to ply his trade but political pundit morons like Sargon get banned?  what the fuck

Sargon is a buffoon but I've seen some of his videos and he's not at all dangerous or damaging toward anyone except maybe his own arguments

I don't care whether Alex Jones has a platform to host his rants or not but I do care when we get to the point of financial companies saying "I have decided this individual should not be able to earn money"

I hope people like Ruben and Peterson, etc. find a place to set up shop, but Patreon can choose who they want to host, hypocritically or not.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
That Tsampikos person is a weirdo, but they're playing the game and playing it well. *shrugs*
[close]

Coitus

  • Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52883 on: January 16, 2019, 01:33:06 PM »

Yeah. That's true. I've heard people argue that if they refuse to uphold free speech then they should be made to act as a publisher and liable for anything that is published on their platform.

Which when you consider the scope involved of overseeing the volume of content, is entirely unfeasible.
So the utility argument has merit, but an electric company can't be sued if, say, someone uses that electricity to run a brothel, or a meth lab, or to commit fraud.
Just as an electric company can't deny service to convicted felons, people on a sexual offenders register, or people propagating hate speech.
And most reasonable people would not consider that a 'problem' that needs to be 'fixed'.

The utility argument doesn't work because while an ISP is very much like a utility due to barriers to entry and a natural monopoly arising from the inherent wastefulness of laying multiple cable/Ethernet lines, a social media website or search engine is decidedly not.

Nintex

  • Finish the Fight
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52884 on: January 16, 2019, 01:39:18 PM »
The patreon shit is the most concerning

Yes they need to remove scams, calls to violence, the most clear-cut instances of harassment

But when resetera's Tsampikos is allowed to ply his trade but political pundit morons like Sargon get banned?  what the fuck

Sargon is a buffoon but I've seen some of his videos and he's not at all dangerous or damaging toward anyone except maybe his own arguments

I don't care whether Alex Jones has a platform to host his rants or not but I do care when we get to the point of financial companies saying "I have decided this individual should not be able to earn money"
People pay for that shit?

Whither the liberal international order
🤴

headwalk

  • brutal deluxe
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52885 on: January 16, 2019, 01:39:29 PM »
censoring alex jones is an absolute crime against comedy.

Nintex

  • Finish the Fight
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52886 on: January 16, 2019, 01:42:31 PM »
Alex Jones is the van Gogh or Jesus of our times.

Misunderstood, bullied and cast out. However in the future statues of Alex will rise and a religion will be founded based on his work.
🤴

Don Rumata

  • Hard To Be A John
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52887 on: January 16, 2019, 01:56:39 PM »
censoring alex jones is an absolute crime against comedy.
Gay Frogs-kind of shit is comedy gold.

"Sandy-Hook-is-a-hoax" shit is fucked and he should get fucked over for it.

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52888 on: January 16, 2019, 01:59:20 PM »
I was thinking: what about a bank account? It is possible to live without one, but as a business, lets say, it's incredibly difficult to live without one. There is a number of legitimate reasons why a bank would freeze an account, but what about political opinion? What if banks started doing what tech companies were doing?

I don't know how you would solve it exactly, but I would certainly see a real problem there. This came to mind mainly because of PayPal banning people from their service.

GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

  • Dumbass Monkey
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52889 on: January 16, 2019, 01:59:38 PM »

The utility argument doesn't work because while an ISP is very much like a utility due to barriers to entry and a natural monopoly arising from the inherent wastefulness of laying multiple cable/Ethernet lines, a social media website or search engine is decidedly not.

You don't consider Google, YouTube, Twitter or Facebook to have de facto monopolies, or you don't consider the cost of user acquisition and the necessary quantity of users to create critical mass for adoption a barrier to entry for competition?

james

  • Donate to the JAMES FUND
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52890 on: January 16, 2019, 02:02:54 PM »
I was thinking: what about a bank account? It is possible to live without one, but as a business, lets say, it's incredibly difficult to live without one. There is a number of legitimate reasons why a bank would freeze an account, but what about political opinion? What if banks started doing what tech companies were doing?

I don't know how you would solve it exactly, but I would certainly see a real problem there. This came to mind mainly because of PayPal banning people from their service.

Its called cash bro
:O

Uncle

  • Have You Ever
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52891 on: January 16, 2019, 02:03:58 PM »
The patreon shit is the most concerning

Yes they need to remove scams, calls to violence, the most clear-cut instances of harassment

But when resetera's Tsampikos is allowed to ply his trade but political pundit morons like Sargon get banned?  what the fuck

Sargon is a buffoon but I've seen some of his videos and he's not at all dangerous or damaging toward anyone except maybe his own arguments

I don't care whether Alex Jones has a platform to host his rants or not but I do care when we get to the point of financial companies saying "I have decided this individual should not be able to earn money"

The patreon shit is the same as the youtube shit they don't have to host anyone on their platform if they don't want too (barring protected classes and such), this just isn't that deep. The alternative, forcing companies to provide services to anyone, is far more egregiously unconstitutional than what we have now.

I'm not arguing that they should be required to, I'm saying it's better for everyone if they remain a more neutral platform

Look at other potential extremes, what if youtube as it exists now was suddenly under new upper management and out of nowhere decided to take down all videos expressing woke viewpoints with no recourse or explanation?

Of course technically it's their own choice, they can host whoever they want

However nobody has the resources to create a viable competitor on that scale with the systems they have in place, I imagine over time you would see a massive shift in cultural attitudes as children grow up seeing nothing but Pewdiepies and Petersons

I don't think you'd see a thriving competitor arise, people would grumble and keep using the platform trying to influence narratives within allowed viewpoints


I was thinking: what about a bank account? It is possible to live without one, but as a business, lets say, it's incredibly difficult to live without one. There is a number of legitimate reasons why a bank would freeze an account, but what about political opinion? What if banks started doing what tech companies were doing?

I don't know how you would solve it exactly, but I would certainly see a real problem there. This came to mind mainly because of PayPal banning people from their service.

Its called cash bro

"We here at Wal-Mart don't accept payments from people wearing MAGA hats, we are a private establishment and not required to provide service to anyone"

"At Target we are no longer providing service to customers wearing yellow jackets, as it is well known that the alt-right are currently wearing yellow jackets everywhere as a sort of stealth signal/counterculture movement...of course you deny it, that's exactly what an alt-righter would say"
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 02:08:30 PM by Uncle »
Uncle

GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

  • Dumbass Monkey
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52892 on: January 16, 2019, 02:08:31 PM »
For the record, FML that bananas of all people inspired an interesting discussion

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52893 on: January 16, 2019, 02:09:13 PM »
I was thinking: what about a bank account? It is possible to live without one, but as a business, lets say, it's incredibly difficult to live without one. There is a number of legitimate reasons why a bank would freeze an account, but what about political opinion? What if banks started doing what tech companies were doing?

I don't know how you would solve it exactly, but I would certainly see a real problem there. This came to mind mainly because of PayPal banning people from their service.

Its called cash bro

To operate and conduct business without an account would be very difficult for variety of reaons. In the same way operating a business in the online space would be very difficult without access to 3rd party services.

This is what I find troubling. It's not so much one company doing this but a whole bunch of tech companies with a monopoly colluding together.

Coitus

  • Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52894 on: January 16, 2019, 02:09:39 PM »

The utility argument doesn't work because while an ISP is very much like a utility due to barriers to entry and a natural monopoly arising from the inherent wastefulness of laying multiple cable/Ethernet lines, a social media website or search engine is decidedly not.

You don't consider Google, YouTube, Twitter or Facebook to have de facto monopolies, or you don't consider the cost of user acquisition and the necessary quantity of users to create critical mass for adoption a barrier to entry for competition?

They may be monopolies but they aren't utilities.  Anyone can start a new search engine or video hosting service or social media platform tomorrow without a prohibitively expensive investment, so no, their popularity isn't a barrier to entry.

And what you do with a monopoly is break it up, not legally require it to host furry porn and Jordan Peterson.

Leadbelly

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52895 on: January 16, 2019, 02:12:06 PM »
"We here at Wal-Mart don't accept payments from people wearing MAGA hats, we are a private establishment and not required to provide service to anyone"

"At Target we are no longer providing service to customers wearing yellow jackets, as it is well known that the alt-right are currently wearing yellow jackets everywhere as a sort of stealth signal/counterculture movement...of course you deny it, that's exactly what an alt-righter would say"

Yeah. The problem with if it were banks doing it is, it would make it even more difficult to create alternative services.

clothedmacuser

  • Defender of Centrist Scum
  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52896 on: January 16, 2019, 02:16:46 PM »
The Kree is banned.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/kirsten-gillibrand-announces-2020-presidential-run.93711/post-16912559


lol, that's it?   They must not like him anymore
sigh

marrec

  • Senior Member
Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52897 on: January 16, 2019, 02:17:36 PM »
I was thinking: what about a bank account? It is possible to live without one, but as a business, lets say, it's incredibly difficult to live without one. There is a number of legitimate reasons why a bank would freeze an account, but what about political opinion? What if banks started doing what tech companies were doing?

I don't know how you would solve it exactly, but I would certainly see a real problem there. This came to mind mainly because of PayPal banning people from their service.

This what if scenario is a bit ridiculous because banks are far more necessary than facebook.

BUT

The government already sanctions companies and individuals for "political opinions", there's precedent.

Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

The Kree is banned.

Thank fucking god that dude is insufferable.

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que

Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52899 on: January 16, 2019, 02:24:02 PM »
Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

Right, so now imagine Youtube removes all "black lives matter" et al. videos because in some twisted way they consider it a hate movement, and twitter agrees and does the same

Which they are totally allowed to do since it's their own site and they don't have to host anything they don't want

You said the bank "what if" scenario was ridiculous because banks are more necessary than facebook, so hey how necessary are youtube and twitter for organizing and getting a message out?

Who is making the replacement platform with the same reach?
Uncle

james

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52900 on: January 16, 2019, 02:24:49 PM »
To operate and conduct business without an account would be very difficult for variety of reaons. In the same way operating a business in the online space would be very difficult without access to 3rd party services.

This is what I find troubling. It's not so much one company doing this but a whole bunch of tech companies with a monopoly colluding together.

Bootstraps bro.

If El Chapo can put together $100 million for a bribe using no banks and no online commerce, so can you
:O

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52901 on: January 16, 2019, 02:26:25 PM »
I was thinking: what about a bank account? It is possible to live without one, but as a business, lets say, it's incredibly difficult to live without one. There is a number of legitimate reasons why a bank would freeze an account, but what about political opinion? What if banks started doing what tech companies were doing?

I don't know how you would solve it exactly, but I would certainly see a real problem there. This came to mind mainly because of PayPal banning people from their service.

This what if scenario is a bit ridiculous because banks are far more necessary than facebook.

BUT

The government already sanctions companies and individuals for "political opinions", there's precedent.

Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

The Kree is banned.

Thank fucking god that dude is insufferable.

Losing access to a bank account would be more serious. Patreon banned Sargon from its service, but it didn't end there. He decided, "okay, I will use an alternative". The only problem there was the alternative, SubscribeStar, was then unable to provide a service because PayPal withdrew the moment people migrated over to SubscribeStar. In other words it becomes difficult to create an alternative in the online space if you do not have access to a payment processor.

SubscribeStar hasn't backed down and is currently looking for an alternative. The trend however, is troubling to me.

Jansen

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52902 on: January 16, 2019, 02:28:53 PM »
Did the kree take re down with him

marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52903 on: January 16, 2019, 02:29:19 PM »
Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

Right, so now imagine Youtube removes all "black lives matter" et al. videos because in some twisted way they consider it a hate movement, and twitter agrees and does the same

Which they are totally allowed to do since it's their own site and they don't have to host anything they don't want

You said the bank "what if" scenario was ridiculous because banks are more necessary than facebook, so hey how necessary are youtube and twitter for organizing and getting a message out?

Who is making the replacement platform with the same reach?

This is also ridiculous but again I'll bite:

They gonna ban what they want, and organizing has existed outside of these spaces for decades and continues to exist outside of these spaces.

In fact, I'd argue that local, on the ground level organizing is FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than this e-protest shit. Youtube, and Twitter, and Facebook are all essentially advertising platforms where personalities go to advertise their brand to a larger audience than they could otherwise reach, but in the end it's self-serving. Shaun King is interested in black progress, he's also interested in MAKING THAT MONEY and he makes that money on Twitter while organizing for black progress on a local level.

Clearly there's a value to the reach of social media platforms, but they're more necessary for individual personalities to expand their brand than anything else.

JOKE ANSWER:

Uhh, ResetERA exists for a reason, they'll all just organize there.

PogiJones

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52904 on: January 16, 2019, 02:31:59 PM »

The Kree is banned.

Thank fucking god that dude is insufferable.

One day, an old man was walking along a beach that was littered with thousands of starfish that had been washed ashore by the high tide. As he walked he came upon a young boy who was eagerly throwing  the starfish back into the ocean, one by one.

Puzzled, the man looked at the boy and asked what he was doing. Without looking up from his task, the boy simply replied, “I’m banning these insufferable starfish, Sir.”

The old man chuckled aloud, “Son, there are thousands of insufferable starfish and only one of you. What difference can you make?”

The boy picked up a starfish, gently tossed it into the water and turning to the man, said, “I made a difference to that one!”
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 02:51:43 PM by PogiJones »

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52905 on: January 16, 2019, 02:39:40 PM »
Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

Right, so now imagine Youtube removes all "black lives matter" et al. videos because in some twisted way they consider it a hate movement, and twitter agrees and does the same

Which they are totally allowed to do since it's their own site and they don't have to host anything they don't want

You said the bank "what if" scenario was ridiculous because banks are more necessary than facebook, so hey how necessary are youtube and twitter for organizing and getting a message out?

Who is making the replacement platform with the same reach?

This is also ridiculous but again I'll bite:

They gonna ban what they want, and organizing has existed outside of these spaces for decades and continues to exist outside of these spaces.

In fact, I'd argue that local, on the ground level organizing is FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than this e-protest shit. Youtube, and Twitter, and Facebook are all essentially advertising platforms where personalities go to advertise their brand to a larger audience than they could otherwise reach, but in the end it's self-serving. Shaun King is interested in black progress, he's also interested in MAKING THAT MONEY and he makes that money on Twitter while organizing for black progress on a local level.

Clearly there's a value to the reach of social media platforms, but they're more necessary for individual personalities to expand their brand than anything else.

JOKE ANSWER:

Uhh, ResetERA exists for a reason, they'll all just organize there.


This isn't the argument I made, but I will make one point along these lines. It's probably more effective in terms of activism. However, what about the dissemination of ideas? It used to be the most important thing for the dissemination of ideas was the printing press. Of course there was a time before the printing press, but that is besides the point. The printing press allowed for ideas to have far greater reach. So important was the press in those times that people argued for 'freedom of the press'.

Now we have the internet which gives those ideas even greater reach. It is only natural then that people would argue for 'freedom of the internet' right? Recognising its importance. That's not to say we're in real trouble now, necessarily, but I will at least say the trend is troubling.

Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52906 on: January 16, 2019, 02:43:03 PM »
Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

Right, so now imagine Youtube removes all "black lives matter" et al. videos because in some twisted way they consider it a hate movement, and twitter agrees and does the same

Which they are totally allowed to do since it's their own site and they don't have to host anything they don't want

You said the bank "what if" scenario was ridiculous because banks are more necessary than facebook, so hey how necessary are youtube and twitter for organizing and getting a message out?

Who is making the replacement platform with the same reach?

This is also ridiculous but again I'll bite:

They gonna ban what they want, and organizing has existed outside of these spaces for decades and continues to exist outside of these spaces.

In fact, I'd argue that local, on the ground level organizing is FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than this e-protest shit. Youtube, and Twitter, and Facebook are all essentially advertising platforms where personalities go to advertise their brand to a larger audience than they could otherwise reach, but in the end it's self-serving. Shaun King is interested in black progress, he's also interested in MAKING THAT MONEY and he makes that money on Twitter while organizing for black progress on a local level.

Clearly there's a value to the reach of social media platforms, but they're more necessary for individual personalities to expand their brand than anything else.

JOKE ANSWER:

Uhh, ResetERA exists for a reason, they'll all just organize there.

Banks deplatforming hypothetical is ridiculous because of how necessary they are but social media deplatforming hypothetical is also ridiculous?  What hypotheticals along these lines do you find acceptable?

Social media deplatforming isn't even a hypothetical at this point, it's actually happening

We're seeing people like TheKree losing their voice daily and somehow it's just too far-fetched an idea to entertain

Or when you do give it some thought you just say "ehh Kree should walk around the city IRL telling people how many posts they made and smiling smugly afterward," as if that would have the same impact
Uncle

joeboy101

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52907 on: January 16, 2019, 02:45:38 PM »
The Kree is banned.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/kirsten-gillibrand-announces-2020-presidential-run.93711/post-16912559


lol, that's it?   They must not like him anymore

1 Day on a sexism tinged comment that would have gotten another poster a week. I think this more the Mods giving him a slap upside the head to settle down a bit. Perhaps that litany of shit a page or so ago of what he’s done kinda emphasized the point. One would hope.

But this is REEEEE and hope is problematic and positivity synonymous with centricity.

Bananas

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52908 on: January 16, 2019, 02:53:36 PM »


https://www.neogaf.com/threads/roku-has-reversed-its-decision-to-host-infowars-on-its-platform-after-facing-backlash-from-its-users.1471123/page-3

Quote

This is the good conspiracy stuff. During the Cremation of Care, they reenact a fake child sacrifice. All the past presidents have attended a place in secret which pantomimes child sacrifice. I mean, just think about that for a second. They may not believe it (Nixon had some amusing things to say about the Grove), but they all attend. There’s photos. What in the world is it about this secret compound that all of our presidents attend, regardless of background or political affiliation?

And if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, that owl statue? Here’s a photo of the US capitol grounds from above:

(Image removed from quote.)

joeboy101

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52909 on: January 16, 2019, 02:54:06 PM »
Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

Right, so now imagine Youtube removes all "black lives matter" et al. videos because in some twisted way they consider it a hate movement, and twitter agrees and does the same

Which they are totally allowed to do since it's their own site and they don't have to host anything they don't want

You said the bank "what if" scenario was ridiculous because banks are more necessary than facebook, so hey how necessary are youtube and twitter for organizing and getting a message out?

Who is making the replacement platform with the same reach?

This is also ridiculous but again I'll bite:

They gonna ban what they want, and organizing has existed outside of these spaces for decades and continues to exist outside of these spaces.

In fact, I'd argue that local, on the ground level organizing is FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than this e-protest shit. Youtube, and Twitter, and Facebook are all essentially advertising platforms where personalities go to advertise their brand to a larger audience than they could otherwise reach, but in the end it's self-serving. Shaun King is interested in black progress, he's also interested in MAKING THAT MONEY and he makes that money on Twitter while organizing for black progress on a local level.

Clearly there's a value to the reach of social media platforms, but they're more necessary for individual personalities to expand their brand than anything else.

JOKE ANSWER:

Uhh, ResetERA exists for a reason, they'll all just organize there.

God forbid, an actual discussion! Thank you both so much.

Seems as the salient sticking point is whether you define a platform as a public right or not. Privatization doesn’t seem like a good measure given things like utilities and such that exist with a public responsibility, but owned privately. Having trouble deciding as both Uncle and marrec have good points on this. There’s really only one way to come to a consensus.


marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52910 on: January 16, 2019, 03:02:56 PM »
This isn't the argument I made, but I will make one point along these lines. It's probably more effective in terms of activism. However, what about the dissemination of ideas? It used to be the most important thing for the dissemination of ideas was the printing press. Of course there was a time before the printing press, but that is besides the point. The printing press allowed for ideas to have far greater reach. So important was the press in those times that people argued for 'freedom of the press'.

Now we have the internet which gives those ideas even greater reach. It is only natural then that people would argue for 'freedom of the internet' right? Recognising it's importance. That's not to say we're in real trouble now, necessarily, but I will at least say the trend is troubling.

Freedom of the press, then and now, does not mean anyone can say whatever they want and call it press and then it's suddenly this sacred fourth estate. Alex Jones may have the protections afforded the government, but he is not "press".

Also, Freedom of the press is a still just a guarantee from the government. Our institutional organizations decided that the protecting press and speech from interference is an important aspect of democracy, but they didn't explicitly say "people can say and print whatever the fuck they want". We have laws that restrict speech and press.

Freedom of the internet is already achieved under Freedom of speech. The government cannot arbitrarily decided what is and isn't on the internet, though like our 1st amendment, there are limitations. Freedom of the press does not necessitate that a 7-Eleven is constitutionally required to sell USA Today, just like Freedom of speech does not necessitate that YouTube is constitutionally required to host Alex Jones.

Banks deplatforming hypothetical is ridiculous because of how necessary they are but social media deplatforming hypothetical is also ridiculous?  What hypotheticals along these lines do you find acceptable?

Social media deplatforming isn't even a hypothetical at this point, it's actually happening

We're seeing people like TheKree losing their voice daily and somehow it's just too far-fetched an idea to entertain

Or when you do give it some thought you just say "ehh Kree should walk around the city IRL telling people how many posts they made and smiling smugly afterward," as if that would have the same impact

It's ridiculous because Black Lives Matter could not be considered hate speech by a fair minded and intelligent individual. People within the movement could absolutely be too extreme and be banned but the overall organization is perfectly within normal rhetorical bounds and there is no indication that it will ever stray outside those.

TheKree was banned because his comment was deemed sexist.

Any hypothetical along these lines is hard to take seriously because it always seems to involve "but what if the victims of hate speech were suddenly hate speech?" Sure, in some nightmare scenario where Steve King buys ALPHABET it would be a concern, but I think we can limit the scope to normal reality for now.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 03:07:43 PM by marrec »

HaughtyFrank

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stufte

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52912 on: January 16, 2019, 03:10:52 PM »
https://nypost.com/2019/01/16/cnn-analyst-accuses-black-radio-host-of-white-privilege/

A real RE moment

"Ah that's only going to give Nazis more ammo."
"Internalized racism AND he's MANSPLAINING!"

marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52913 on: January 16, 2019, 03:12:26 PM »
https://nypost.com/2019/01/16/cnn-analyst-accuses-black-radio-host-of-white-privilege/

A real RE moment

You could say, since he's "one of the good ones" he is benefiting from the privilege of white people supporting his internalized racism by giving him jobs he wouldn't otherwise have if his racial opinions were different

That's... that's all I got sorry.

jorma

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52914 on: January 16, 2019, 03:20:30 PM »
when private entities have taken over hosting the public spaces that previously were operated by the government they obviously have to take over the responsibilities to protect free speech as well. it should be fucking obvious you capitalist  :doge dogs.



Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52915 on: January 16, 2019, 03:22:14 PM »
It's ridiculous because Black Lives Matter could not be considered hate speech by a fair minded and intelligent individual. People within the movement could absolutely be too extreme and be banned but the overall organization is perfectly within normal rhetorical bounds and there is no indication that it will ever stray outside those.

For the record obviously I think BLM is a worthy cause and shouldn't be deplatformed but I remember this and it doesn't seem a stretch for whatever site, twitter etc. to "perform its own investigations" and arrive at a moronic conclusion

So I don't actually think it's a ridiculous hypothetical
Uncle

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52916 on: January 16, 2019, 03:30:22 PM »
This isn't the argument I made, but I will make one point along these lines. It's probably more effective in terms of activism. However, what about the dissemination of ideas? It used to be the most important thing for the dissemination of ideas was the printing press. Of course there was a time before the printing press, but that is besides the point. The printing press allowed for ideas to have far greater reach. So important was the press in those times that people argued for 'freedom of the press'.

Now we have the internet which gives those ideas even greater reach. It is only natural then that people would argue for 'freedom of the internet' right? Recognising it's importance. That's not to say we're in real trouble now, necessarily, but I will at least say the trend is troubling.

Freedom of the press, then and now, does not mean anyone can say whatever they want and call it press and then it's suddenly this sacred fourth estate. Alex Jones may have the protections afforded the government, but he is not "press".

Also, Freedom of the press is a still just a guarantee from the government. Our institutional organizations decided that the protecting press and speech from interference is an important aspect of democracy, but they didn't explicitly say "people can say and print whatever the fuck they want". We have laws that restrict speech and press.

Freedom of the internet is already achieved under Freedom of speech. The government cannot arbitrarily decided what is and isn't on the internet, though like our 1st amendment, there are limitations. Freedom of the press does not necessitate that a 7-Eleven is constitutionally required to sell USA Today, just like Freedom of speech does not necessitate that YouTube is constitutionally required to host Alex Jones.

It may not have meant that in actuality, but that is exactly what people argued for. The press has been around for a long time. It's like saying freedom of the press does not mean you can say anything heretical against the church. Not in actuality, but it meant exactly that.

And in terms of freedom of speech more broadly, I think there is a small problem with the 1st amendment. Don't get me wrong, I am jealous you have such a thing. It is an incredibly useful document. What it does mean though is people in the US often argue in terms of the 1st amendment and not necessarily in terms of freedom of speech as a principle. For instance a freedom of speech absolutist would argue against any censorship, government or otherwise. Not strictly because of the 1st amendment but as a social principle. It would be inconsistent to say for instance that you're a free speech absolutist, but yet you personally are against the principle of free speech when it comes to the institute you belong to. No they're for free speech within that insitution as a matter of principle.

One of the greatest free speech advocates, John Stuart Mill, didn't just argue free speech solely when it came to the state, but also noted other forms of censorship. In fact most of the great arguments for free speech does not address it solely as interference by the government but notes other forms.

However, as I have already ackowledged, freedom of speech does interfere with property rights. So ultimately is best not to advocate for compelling it, but rather encouraging it. To try to foster an environment where freedom of speech can thrive. It is no use for instance if you have free speech protections from the government but all private enterprises operate in a way that it is as if there is no free speech protections from the government. It may not be entirely the same thing, government censorship is far war worse than corporate censorship, but if the result is the same either way, you can at least see there is a 'problematic' aspect to it. That's not say things are that bad in reality, it is just a hypothetical that demonstrates it can be still just as problematic regardless of whether it is done government sponsored or otherwise.
I will also point out that the threat doesn't come solely from the US, Europe is just as much a threat, possibly a bigger threat since there are no free speech protections.

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52917 on: January 16, 2019, 03:46:12 PM »
when private entities have taken over hosting the public spaces that previously were operated by the government they obviously have to take over the responsibilities to protect free speech as well.
wat

I will also point out that the threat doesn't come solely from the US, Europe is just as much a threat, possibly a bigger threat since there are no free speech protections.
wat

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52918 on: January 16, 2019, 03:53:04 PM »
when private entities have taken over hosting the public spaces that previously were operated by the government they obviously have to take over the responsibilities to protect free speech as well.
wat

I will also point out that the threat doesn't come solely from the US, Europe is just as much a threat, possibly a bigger threat since there are no free speech protections.
wat

I don't get what your point is. There is no 1st amendment in Europe. Many European countries have hate speech legislation for example.

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #52919 on: January 16, 2019, 04:00:00 PM »
Which is a very far cry from saying that there are no free speech protections in Europe.