Author Topic: Other Forums |OT| ♀ C O R E V A L U E S ♀ Sponsored By THQNordic  (Read 5828265 times)

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Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54240 on: January 16, 2019, 02:03:58 PM »
The patreon shit is the most concerning

Yes they need to remove scams, calls to violence, the most clear-cut instances of harassment

But when resetera's Tsampikos is allowed to ply his trade but political pundit morons like Sargon get banned?  what the fuck

Sargon is a buffoon but I've seen some of his videos and he's not at all dangerous or damaging toward anyone except maybe his own arguments

I don't care whether Alex Jones has a platform to host his rants or not but I do care when we get to the point of financial companies saying "I have decided this individual should not be able to earn money"

The patreon shit is the same as the youtube shit they don't have to host anyone on their platform if they don't want too (barring protected classes and such), this just isn't that deep. The alternative, forcing companies to provide services to anyone, is far more egregiously unconstitutional than what we have now.

I'm not arguing that they should be required to, I'm saying it's better for everyone if they remain a more neutral platform

Look at other potential extremes, what if youtube as it exists now was suddenly under new upper management and out of nowhere decided to take down all videos expressing woke viewpoints with no recourse or explanation?

Of course technically it's their own choice, they can host whoever they want

However nobody has the resources to create a viable competitor on that scale with the systems they have in place, I imagine over time you would see a massive shift in cultural attitudes as children grow up seeing nothing but Pewdiepies and Petersons

I don't think you'd see a thriving competitor arise, people would grumble and keep using the platform trying to influence narratives within allowed viewpoints


I was thinking: what about a bank account? It is possible to live without one, but as a business, lets say, it's incredibly difficult to live without one. There is a number of legitimate reasons why a bank would freeze an account, but what about political opinion? What if banks started doing what tech companies were doing?

I don't know how you would solve it exactly, but I would certainly see a real problem there. This came to mind mainly because of PayPal banning people from their service.

Its called cash bro

"We here at Wal-Mart don't accept payments from people wearing MAGA hats, we are a private establishment and not required to provide service to anyone"

"At Target we are no longer providing service to customers wearing yellow jackets, as it is well known that the alt-right are currently wearing yellow jackets everywhere as a sort of stealth signal/counterculture movement...of course you deny it, that's exactly what an alt-righter would say"
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 02:08:30 PM by Uncle »
Uncle

GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54241 on: January 16, 2019, 02:08:31 PM »
For the record, FML that bananas of all people inspired an interesting discussion

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54242 on: January 16, 2019, 02:09:13 PM »
I was thinking: what about a bank account? It is possible to live without one, but as a business, lets say, it's incredibly difficult to live without one. There is a number of legitimate reasons why a bank would freeze an account, but what about political opinion? What if banks started doing what tech companies were doing?

I don't know how you would solve it exactly, but I would certainly see a real problem there. This came to mind mainly because of PayPal banning people from their service.

Its called cash bro

To operate and conduct business without an account would be very difficult for variety of reaons. In the same way operating a business in the online space would be very difficult without access to 3rd party services.

This is what I find troubling. It's not so much one company doing this but a whole bunch of tech companies with a monopoly colluding together.

Coitus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54243 on: January 16, 2019, 02:09:39 PM »

The utility argument doesn't work because while an ISP is very much like a utility due to barriers to entry and a natural monopoly arising from the inherent wastefulness of laying multiple cable/Ethernet lines, a social media website or search engine is decidedly not.

You don't consider Google, YouTube, Twitter or Facebook to have de facto monopolies, or you don't consider the cost of user acquisition and the necessary quantity of users to create critical mass for adoption a barrier to entry for competition?

They may be monopolies but they aren't utilities.  Anyone can start a new search engine or video hosting service or social media platform tomorrow without a prohibitively expensive investment, so no, their popularity isn't a barrier to entry.

And what you do with a monopoly is break it up, not legally require it to host furry porn and Jordan Peterson.

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54244 on: January 16, 2019, 02:12:06 PM »
"We here at Wal-Mart don't accept payments from people wearing MAGA hats, we are a private establishment and not required to provide service to anyone"

"At Target we are no longer providing service to customers wearing yellow jackets, as it is well known that the alt-right are currently wearing yellow jackets everywhere as a sort of stealth signal/counterculture movement...of course you deny it, that's exactly what an alt-righter would say"

Yeah. The problem with if it were banks doing it is, it would make it even more difficult to create alternative services.

clothedmacuser

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54245 on: January 16, 2019, 02:16:46 PM »
The Kree is banned.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/kirsten-gillibrand-announces-2020-presidential-run.93711/post-16912559


lol, that's it?   They must not like him anymore
sigh

marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54246 on: January 16, 2019, 02:17:36 PM »
I was thinking: what about a bank account? It is possible to live without one, but as a business, lets say, it's incredibly difficult to live without one. There is a number of legitimate reasons why a bank would freeze an account, but what about political opinion? What if banks started doing what tech companies were doing?

I don't know how you would solve it exactly, but I would certainly see a real problem there. This came to mind mainly because of PayPal banning people from their service.

This what if scenario is a bit ridiculous because banks are far more necessary than facebook.

BUT

The government already sanctions companies and individuals for "political opinions", there's precedent.

Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

The Kree is banned.

Thank fucking god that dude is insufferable.

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Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54248 on: January 16, 2019, 02:24:02 PM »
Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

Right, so now imagine Youtube removes all "black lives matter" et al. videos because in some twisted way they consider it a hate movement, and twitter agrees and does the same

Which they are totally allowed to do since it's their own site and they don't have to host anything they don't want

You said the bank "what if" scenario was ridiculous because banks are more necessary than facebook, so hey how necessary are youtube and twitter for organizing and getting a message out?

Who is making the replacement platform with the same reach?
Uncle

james

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54249 on: January 16, 2019, 02:24:49 PM »
To operate and conduct business without an account would be very difficult for variety of reaons. In the same way operating a business in the online space would be very difficult without access to 3rd party services.

This is what I find troubling. It's not so much one company doing this but a whole bunch of tech companies with a monopoly colluding together.

Bootstraps bro.

If El Chapo can put together $100 million for a bribe using no banks and no online commerce, so can you
:O

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54250 on: January 16, 2019, 02:26:25 PM »
I was thinking: what about a bank account? It is possible to live without one, but as a business, lets say, it's incredibly difficult to live without one. There is a number of legitimate reasons why a bank would freeze an account, but what about political opinion? What if banks started doing what tech companies were doing?

I don't know how you would solve it exactly, but I would certainly see a real problem there. This came to mind mainly because of PayPal banning people from their service.

This what if scenario is a bit ridiculous because banks are far more necessary than facebook.

BUT

The government already sanctions companies and individuals for "political opinions", there's precedent.

Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

The Kree is banned.

Thank fucking god that dude is insufferable.

Losing access to a bank account would be more serious. Patreon banned Sargon from its service, but it didn't end there. He decided, "okay, I will use an alternative". The only problem there was the alternative, SubscribeStar, was then unable to provide a service because PayPal withdrew the moment people migrated over to SubscribeStar. In other words it becomes difficult to create an alternative in the online space if you do not have access to a payment processor.

SubscribeStar hasn't backed down and is currently looking for an alternative. The trend however, is troubling to me.

Jansen

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54251 on: January 16, 2019, 02:28:53 PM »
Did the kree take re down with him

marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54252 on: January 16, 2019, 02:29:19 PM »
Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

Right, so now imagine Youtube removes all "black lives matter" et al. videos because in some twisted way they consider it a hate movement, and twitter agrees and does the same

Which they are totally allowed to do since it's their own site and they don't have to host anything they don't want

You said the bank "what if" scenario was ridiculous because banks are more necessary than facebook, so hey how necessary are youtube and twitter for organizing and getting a message out?

Who is making the replacement platform with the same reach?

This is also ridiculous but again I'll bite:

They gonna ban what they want, and organizing has existed outside of these spaces for decades and continues to exist outside of these spaces.

In fact, I'd argue that local, on the ground level organizing is FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than this e-protest shit. Youtube, and Twitter, and Facebook are all essentially advertising platforms where personalities go to advertise their brand to a larger audience than they could otherwise reach, but in the end it's self-serving. Shaun King is interested in black progress, he's also interested in MAKING THAT MONEY and he makes that money on Twitter while organizing for black progress on a local level.

Clearly there's a value to the reach of social media platforms, but they're more necessary for individual personalities to expand their brand than anything else.

JOKE ANSWER:

Uhh, ResetERA exists for a reason, they'll all just organize there.

PogiJones

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54253 on: January 16, 2019, 02:31:59 PM »

The Kree is banned.

Thank fucking god that dude is insufferable.

One day, an old man was walking along a beach that was littered with thousands of starfish that had been washed ashore by the high tide. As he walked he came upon a young boy who was eagerly throwing  the starfish back into the ocean, one by one.

Puzzled, the man looked at the boy and asked what he was doing. Without looking up from his task, the boy simply replied, “I’m banning these insufferable starfish, Sir.”

The old man chuckled aloud, “Son, there are thousands of insufferable starfish and only one of you. What difference can you make?”

The boy picked up a starfish, gently tossed it into the water and turning to the man, said, “I made a difference to that one!”
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 02:51:43 PM by PogiJones »

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54254 on: January 16, 2019, 02:39:40 PM »
Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

Right, so now imagine Youtube removes all "black lives matter" et al. videos because in some twisted way they consider it a hate movement, and twitter agrees and does the same

Which they are totally allowed to do since it's their own site and they don't have to host anything they don't want

You said the bank "what if" scenario was ridiculous because banks are more necessary than facebook, so hey how necessary are youtube and twitter for organizing and getting a message out?

Who is making the replacement platform with the same reach?

This is also ridiculous but again I'll bite:

They gonna ban what they want, and organizing has existed outside of these spaces for decades and continues to exist outside of these spaces.

In fact, I'd argue that local, on the ground level organizing is FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than this e-protest shit. Youtube, and Twitter, and Facebook are all essentially advertising platforms where personalities go to advertise their brand to a larger audience than they could otherwise reach, but in the end it's self-serving. Shaun King is interested in black progress, he's also interested in MAKING THAT MONEY and he makes that money on Twitter while organizing for black progress on a local level.

Clearly there's a value to the reach of social media platforms, but they're more necessary for individual personalities to expand their brand than anything else.

JOKE ANSWER:

Uhh, ResetERA exists for a reason, they'll all just organize there.


This isn't the argument I made, but I will make one point along these lines. It's probably more effective in terms of activism. However, what about the dissemination of ideas? It used to be the most important thing for the dissemination of ideas was the printing press. Of course there was a time before the printing press, but that is besides the point. The printing press allowed for ideas to have far greater reach. So important was the press in those times that people argued for 'freedom of the press'.

Now we have the internet which gives those ideas even greater reach. It is only natural then that people would argue for 'freedom of the internet' right? Recognising its importance. That's not to say we're in real trouble now, necessarily, but I will at least say the trend is troubling.

Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54255 on: January 16, 2019, 02:43:03 PM »
Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

Right, so now imagine Youtube removes all "black lives matter" et al. videos because in some twisted way they consider it a hate movement, and twitter agrees and does the same

Which they are totally allowed to do since it's their own site and they don't have to host anything they don't want

You said the bank "what if" scenario was ridiculous because banks are more necessary than facebook, so hey how necessary are youtube and twitter for organizing and getting a message out?

Who is making the replacement platform with the same reach?

This is also ridiculous but again I'll bite:

They gonna ban what they want, and organizing has existed outside of these spaces for decades and continues to exist outside of these spaces.

In fact, I'd argue that local, on the ground level organizing is FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than this e-protest shit. Youtube, and Twitter, and Facebook are all essentially advertising platforms where personalities go to advertise their brand to a larger audience than they could otherwise reach, but in the end it's self-serving. Shaun King is interested in black progress, he's also interested in MAKING THAT MONEY and he makes that money on Twitter while organizing for black progress on a local level.

Clearly there's a value to the reach of social media platforms, but they're more necessary for individual personalities to expand their brand than anything else.

JOKE ANSWER:

Uhh, ResetERA exists for a reason, they'll all just organize there.

Banks deplatforming hypothetical is ridiculous because of how necessary they are but social media deplatforming hypothetical is also ridiculous?  What hypotheticals along these lines do you find acceptable?

Social media deplatforming isn't even a hypothetical at this point, it's actually happening

We're seeing people like TheKree losing their voice daily and somehow it's just too far-fetched an idea to entertain

Or when you do give it some thought you just say "ehh Kree should walk around the city IRL telling people how many posts they made and smiling smugly afterward," as if that would have the same impact
Uncle

joeboy101

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54256 on: January 16, 2019, 02:45:38 PM »
The Kree is banned.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/kirsten-gillibrand-announces-2020-presidential-run.93711/post-16912559


lol, that's it?   They must not like him anymore

1 Day on a sexism tinged comment that would have gotten another poster a week. I think this more the Mods giving him a slap upside the head to settle down a bit. Perhaps that litany of shit a page or so ago of what he’s done kinda emphasized the point. One would hope.

But this is REEEEE and hope is problematic and positivity synonymous with centricity.

Bananas

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54257 on: January 16, 2019, 02:53:36 PM »


https://www.neogaf.com/threads/roku-has-reversed-its-decision-to-host-infowars-on-its-platform-after-facing-backlash-from-its-users.1471123/page-3

Quote

This is the good conspiracy stuff. During the Cremation of Care, they reenact a fake child sacrifice. All the past presidents have attended a place in secret which pantomimes child sacrifice. I mean, just think about that for a second. They may not believe it (Nixon had some amusing things to say about the Grove), but they all attend. There’s photos. What in the world is it about this secret compound that all of our presidents attend, regardless of background or political affiliation?

And if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, that owl statue? Here’s a photo of the US capitol grounds from above:

(Image removed from quote.)

joeboy101

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54258 on: January 16, 2019, 02:54:06 PM »
Also, calling them "political opinions" is so toothless. Universal healthcare vs Private healthcare is a political opinion, black people being inferior to white people is not a political opinion.

Right, so now imagine Youtube removes all "black lives matter" et al. videos because in some twisted way they consider it a hate movement, and twitter agrees and does the same

Which they are totally allowed to do since it's their own site and they don't have to host anything they don't want

You said the bank "what if" scenario was ridiculous because banks are more necessary than facebook, so hey how necessary are youtube and twitter for organizing and getting a message out?

Who is making the replacement platform with the same reach?

This is also ridiculous but again I'll bite:

They gonna ban what they want, and organizing has existed outside of these spaces for decades and continues to exist outside of these spaces.

In fact, I'd argue that local, on the ground level organizing is FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than this e-protest shit. Youtube, and Twitter, and Facebook are all essentially advertising platforms where personalities go to advertise their brand to a larger audience than they could otherwise reach, but in the end it's self-serving. Shaun King is interested in black progress, he's also interested in MAKING THAT MONEY and he makes that money on Twitter while organizing for black progress on a local level.

Clearly there's a value to the reach of social media platforms, but they're more necessary for individual personalities to expand their brand than anything else.

JOKE ANSWER:

Uhh, ResetERA exists for a reason, they'll all just organize there.

God forbid, an actual discussion! Thank you both so much.

Seems as the salient sticking point is whether you define a platform as a public right or not. Privatization doesn’t seem like a good measure given things like utilities and such that exist with a public responsibility, but owned privately. Having trouble deciding as both Uncle and marrec have good points on this. There’s really only one way to come to a consensus.


marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54259 on: January 16, 2019, 03:02:56 PM »
This isn't the argument I made, but I will make one point along these lines. It's probably more effective in terms of activism. However, what about the dissemination of ideas? It used to be the most important thing for the dissemination of ideas was the printing press. Of course there was a time before the printing press, but that is besides the point. The printing press allowed for ideas to have far greater reach. So important was the press in those times that people argued for 'freedom of the press'.

Now we have the internet which gives those ideas even greater reach. It is only natural then that people would argue for 'freedom of the internet' right? Recognising it's importance. That's not to say we're in real trouble now, necessarily, but I will at least say the trend is troubling.

Freedom of the press, then and now, does not mean anyone can say whatever they want and call it press and then it's suddenly this sacred fourth estate. Alex Jones may have the protections afforded the government, but he is not "press".

Also, Freedom of the press is a still just a guarantee from the government. Our institutional organizations decided that the protecting press and speech from interference is an important aspect of democracy, but they didn't explicitly say "people can say and print whatever the fuck they want". We have laws that restrict speech and press.

Freedom of the internet is already achieved under Freedom of speech. The government cannot arbitrarily decided what is and isn't on the internet, though like our 1st amendment, there are limitations. Freedom of the press does not necessitate that a 7-Eleven is constitutionally required to sell USA Today, just like Freedom of speech does not necessitate that YouTube is constitutionally required to host Alex Jones.

Banks deplatforming hypothetical is ridiculous because of how necessary they are but social media deplatforming hypothetical is also ridiculous?  What hypotheticals along these lines do you find acceptable?

Social media deplatforming isn't even a hypothetical at this point, it's actually happening

We're seeing people like TheKree losing their voice daily and somehow it's just too far-fetched an idea to entertain

Or when you do give it some thought you just say "ehh Kree should walk around the city IRL telling people how many posts they made and smiling smugly afterward," as if that would have the same impact

It's ridiculous because Black Lives Matter could not be considered hate speech by a fair minded and intelligent individual. People within the movement could absolutely be too extreme and be banned but the overall organization is perfectly within normal rhetorical bounds and there is no indication that it will ever stray outside those.

TheKree was banned because his comment was deemed sexist.

Any hypothetical along these lines is hard to take seriously because it always seems to involve "but what if the victims of hate speech were suddenly hate speech?" Sure, in some nightmare scenario where Steve King buys ALPHABET it would be a concern, but I think we can limit the scope to normal reality for now.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 03:07:43 PM by marrec »

HaughtyFrank

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stufte

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54261 on: January 16, 2019, 03:10:52 PM »
https://nypost.com/2019/01/16/cnn-analyst-accuses-black-radio-host-of-white-privilege/

A real RE moment

"Ah that's only going to give Nazis more ammo."
"Internalized racism AND he's MANSPLAINING!"

marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54262 on: January 16, 2019, 03:12:26 PM »
https://nypost.com/2019/01/16/cnn-analyst-accuses-black-radio-host-of-white-privilege/

A real RE moment

You could say, since he's "one of the good ones" he is benefiting from the privilege of white people supporting his internalized racism by giving him jobs he wouldn't otherwise have if his racial opinions were different

That's... that's all I got sorry.

jorma

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54263 on: January 16, 2019, 03:20:30 PM »
when private entities have taken over hosting the public spaces that previously were operated by the government they obviously have to take over the responsibilities to protect free speech as well. it should be fucking obvious you capitalist  :doge dogs.



Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54264 on: January 16, 2019, 03:22:14 PM »
It's ridiculous because Black Lives Matter could not be considered hate speech by a fair minded and intelligent individual. People within the movement could absolutely be too extreme and be banned but the overall organization is perfectly within normal rhetorical bounds and there is no indication that it will ever stray outside those.

For the record obviously I think BLM is a worthy cause and shouldn't be deplatformed but I remember this and it doesn't seem a stretch for whatever site, twitter etc. to "perform its own investigations" and arrive at a moronic conclusion

So I don't actually think it's a ridiculous hypothetical
Uncle

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54265 on: January 16, 2019, 03:30:22 PM »
This isn't the argument I made, but I will make one point along these lines. It's probably more effective in terms of activism. However, what about the dissemination of ideas? It used to be the most important thing for the dissemination of ideas was the printing press. Of course there was a time before the printing press, but that is besides the point. The printing press allowed for ideas to have far greater reach. So important was the press in those times that people argued for 'freedom of the press'.

Now we have the internet which gives those ideas even greater reach. It is only natural then that people would argue for 'freedom of the internet' right? Recognising it's importance. That's not to say we're in real trouble now, necessarily, but I will at least say the trend is troubling.

Freedom of the press, then and now, does not mean anyone can say whatever they want and call it press and then it's suddenly this sacred fourth estate. Alex Jones may have the protections afforded the government, but he is not "press".

Also, Freedom of the press is a still just a guarantee from the government. Our institutional organizations decided that the protecting press and speech from interference is an important aspect of democracy, but they didn't explicitly say "people can say and print whatever the fuck they want". We have laws that restrict speech and press.

Freedom of the internet is already achieved under Freedom of speech. The government cannot arbitrarily decided what is and isn't on the internet, though like our 1st amendment, there are limitations. Freedom of the press does not necessitate that a 7-Eleven is constitutionally required to sell USA Today, just like Freedom of speech does not necessitate that YouTube is constitutionally required to host Alex Jones.

It may not have meant that in actuality, but that is exactly what people argued for. The press has been around for a long time. It's like saying freedom of the press does not mean you can say anything heretical against the church. Not in actuality, but it meant exactly that.

And in terms of freedom of speech more broadly, I think there is a small problem with the 1st amendment. Don't get me wrong, I am jealous you have such a thing. It is an incredibly useful document. What it does mean though is people in the US often argue in terms of the 1st amendment and not necessarily in terms of freedom of speech as a principle. For instance a freedom of speech absolutist would argue against any censorship, government or otherwise. Not strictly because of the 1st amendment but as a social principle. It would be inconsistent to say for instance that you're a free speech absolutist, but yet you personally are against the principle of free speech when it comes to the institute you belong to. No they're for free speech within that insitution as a matter of principle.

One of the greatest free speech advocates, John Stuart Mill, didn't just argue free speech solely when it came to the state, but also noted other forms of censorship. In fact most of the great arguments for free speech does not address it solely as interference by the government but notes other forms.

However, as I have already ackowledged, freedom of speech does interfere with property rights. So ultimately is best not to advocate for compelling it, but rather encouraging it. To try to foster an environment where freedom of speech can thrive. It is no use for instance if you have free speech protections from the government but all private enterprises operate in a way that it is as if there is no free speech protections from the government. It may not be entirely the same thing, government censorship is far war worse than corporate censorship, but if the result is the same either way, you can at least see there is a 'problematic' aspect to it. That's not say things are that bad in reality, it is just a hypothetical that demonstrates it can be still just as problematic regardless of whether it is done government sponsored or otherwise.
I will also point out that the threat doesn't come solely from the US, Europe is just as much a threat, possibly a bigger threat since there are no free speech protections.

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54266 on: January 16, 2019, 03:46:12 PM »
when private entities have taken over hosting the public spaces that previously were operated by the government they obviously have to take over the responsibilities to protect free speech as well.
wat

I will also point out that the threat doesn't come solely from the US, Europe is just as much a threat, possibly a bigger threat since there are no free speech protections.
wat

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54267 on: January 16, 2019, 03:53:04 PM »
when private entities have taken over hosting the public spaces that previously were operated by the government they obviously have to take over the responsibilities to protect free speech as well.
wat

I will also point out that the threat doesn't come solely from the US, Europe is just as much a threat, possibly a bigger threat since there are no free speech protections.
wat

I don't get what your point is. There is no 1st amendment in Europe. Many European countries have hate speech legislation for example.

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54268 on: January 16, 2019, 04:00:00 PM »
Which is a very far cry from saying that there are no free speech protections in Europe.

stufte

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54269 on: January 16, 2019, 04:02:56 PM »
The new Far Cry was pretty good.

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54270 on: January 16, 2019, 04:06:06 PM »
I realised marrec you're also using the term 'the press' in a relatively modern sense meaning solely news outlets. Think more in terms of the invention of the printing press. Freedom of the press as it was originally argued was about literal access to the printing press; the ability to disseminate information on a mass scale.

Quote
Legal Definition of freedom of the press

: the right to publish and disseminate information, thoughts, and opinions without restraint or censorship as guaranteed under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

I'm not talking about the right of Alex Jones to be considered a news outlet.

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54271 on: January 16, 2019, 04:09:55 PM »
Which is a very far cry from saying that there are no free speech protections in Europe.

If certain speech is not protected, how is there free speech protection?

I'm a Puppy!

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54272 on: January 16, 2019, 04:11:01 PM »
Guys. 
:no1curr
que

marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54273 on: January 16, 2019, 04:15:02 PM »
sum1curr

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54274 on: January 16, 2019, 04:17:07 PM »
If certain speech is not protected, how is there free speech protection?
Wham bam, we're in the realm of impossible ideals all of a sudden.

Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54275 on: January 16, 2019, 04:20:59 PM »
I'm only interested in ree speech
Uncle

joeboy101

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54276 on: January 16, 2019, 04:21:21 PM »
The new Far Cry was pretty good.

Respawning enemies just after you leave sight of them sucks. Can’t drive 1/8 of a mile down the road without a truck full of sponges jumping on your dick.

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54277 on: January 16, 2019, 04:21:23 PM »
If certain speech is not protected, how is there free speech protection?
Wham bam, we're in the realm of impossible ideals all of a sudden.

It seems the US is living the impossible ideal dream. lol

It must be an enigma to you how people in the US survive. :p

marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54278 on: January 16, 2019, 04:23:04 PM »
I'm only interested in ree speech

Y'all hear they dug up where Chris Pratt goes to church? It's apparently a controversial church  :o

Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54279 on: January 16, 2019, 04:26:10 PM »
I'm only interested in ree speech

Y'all hear they dug up where Chris Pratt goes to church? It's apparently a controversial church  :o

I google this and the first site I go to

You did this on purpose didn't you

Uncle

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54280 on: January 16, 2019, 04:26:57 PM »
It seems the US is living the impossible ideal dream. lol
:rofl

HaughtyFrank

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thetylerrob

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54282 on: January 16, 2019, 04:28:42 PM »
Vacillating between care posts and shit posts  :aah

PogiJones

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54283 on: January 16, 2019, 04:28:50 PM »
If certain speech is not protected, how is there free speech protection?
Wham bam, we're in the realm of impossible ideals all of a sudden.

It seems the US is living the impossible ideal dream. lol

It must be an enigma to you how people in the US survive. :p

No, he's right. Some speech is not protected. Libel and slander are easy examples. Yelling "Fire" in a crowded movie theater is a classic example. Pornography to some extent (you couldn't play your home-made sex tape in a kindergarten class, for example).

There are almost no absolute principles. Even the "right to life" principle isn't absolute. If you are trying to kill someone, you've forfeit your right to life, and they can legally kill you.

So this discussion is mostly about where on the spectrum we choose to draw lines, which can be pretty subjective.

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54284 on: January 16, 2019, 04:29:01 PM »
It seems the US is living the impossible ideal dream. lol
:rofl

You know, you're a bit of enigma to me in fact. :p

Europe: hate speech.
US: No hate speech.

Not hard to get your head around. lol

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54285 on: January 16, 2019, 04:31:02 PM »
You do realize the US has hate speech laws, right? Meaning they don't have absolute free speech either, which according to you is not Free Speech(TM).

marrec

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54286 on: January 16, 2019, 04:31:05 PM »
I'm only interested in ree speech

Y'all hear they dug up where Chris Pratt goes to church? It's apparently a controversial church  :o

I google this and the first site I go to

You did this on purpose didn't you

(Image removed from quote.)

you are now infected with thegayagenda.exe

agrajag

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54287 on: January 16, 2019, 04:34:48 PM »
Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54288 on: January 16, 2019, 04:35:36 PM »
If certain speech is not protected, how is there free speech protection?
Wham bam, we're in the realm of impossible ideals all of a sudden.

It seems the US is living the impossible ideal dream. lol

It must be an enigma to you how people in the US survive. :p

No, he's right. Some speech is not protected. Libel and slander are easy examples. Yelling "Fire" in a crowded movie theater is a classic example. Pornography to some extent (you couldn't play a porn video in a kindergarten class, for example).

There are almost no absolute principles. Even the "right to life" principle isn't absolute. If you are trying to kill someone, you've forfeit your right to life, and they can legally kill you.

So this discussion is mostly about where on the spectrum we choose to draw lines, which can be pretty subjective.

Okay. Many people who are staunch supporters of free speech draw the line somewhere. For example, incitement to violence is a common line. Whether there should be libel laws is more up for debate. That said it is hard to win a libel case in the US.

in terms of your opinions and your right to say them, that is pretty much protected in the US where in Europe it is not.

Sure, fine, there is no absolute freedom of speech, but I just find it starting to knitpick a little when meant in the general sense when comparing Europe to the US.

PogiJones

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54289 on: January 16, 2019, 04:36:09 PM »
That's not entirely true, either. Swinging your fist at someone's face could be seen as assault (not to be confused with battery). Depending on the circumstances.

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54290 on: January 16, 2019, 04:38:29 PM »
You do realize the US has hate speech laws, right? Meaning they don't have absolute free speech either, which according to you is not Free Speech(TM).

What hate speech laws?

Quote
Hate speech in the United States. Hate speech in the United States is not regulated, in contrast to that of most other liberal democracies. The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that hate speech is legally protected free speech under the First Amendment.

PogiJones

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54291 on: January 16, 2019, 04:42:04 PM »
Okay. Many people who are staunch supporters of free speech draw the line somewhere. For example, incitement to violence is a common line. Whether there should be libel laws is more up for debate. That said it is hard to win a libel case in the US.

in terms of your opinions and your right to say them, that is pretty much protected in the US where in Europe it is not.

Sure, fine, there is no absolute freedom of speech, but I just find it starting to knitpick a little when meant in the general sense when comparing Europe to the US.

Sure, but your original assertion was that Europe doesn't have free speech because they have limitations on their free speech. By that metric, no one has free speech. Yet you also asserted the U.S. does. So it's a straight logical contradiction with yourself.

Now, if you want to say speech in the U.S. is more free than in Europe, that's an assertion that could be reasonably maintained. (Although I'm no expert on EU law, so I can't say that's fully right. There may be areas of speech that are more free in the EU.)

Rufus

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54292 on: January 16, 2019, 04:42:44 PM »
That said, in terms of your opinions and your right to say them, that is pretty much protected in the US where in Europe is not.
There are very constrained edge cases where the US is more permissive than Europe (holocaust denial being a big one), but on the whole it's ridiculous to say there are no protections for free speech or freedom of expression in Europe.

agrajag

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54293 on: January 16, 2019, 04:43:09 PM »
That's not entirely true, either. Swinging your fist at someone's face could be seen as assault (not to be confused with battery). Depending on the circumstances.


that's a quote from Abraham J Trump you piece of shit

PogiJones

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54294 on: January 16, 2019, 04:45:18 PM »
Abrah_m J. T__mp  :wag

Leadbelly

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54295 on: January 16, 2019, 04:46:48 PM »
Okay. Many people who are staunch supporters of free speech draw the line somewhere. For example, incitement to violence is a common line. Whether there should be libel laws is more up for debate. That said it is hard to win a libel case in the US.

in terms of your opinions and your right to say them, that is pretty much protected in the US where in Europe it is not.

Sure, fine, there is no absolute freedom of speech, but I just find it starting to knitpick a little when meant in the general sense when comparing Europe to the US.

Sure, but your original assertion was that Europe doesn't have free speech because they have limitations on their free speech. By that metric, no one has free speech. Yet you also asserted the U.S. does. So it's a straight logical contradiction with yourself.

Now, if you want to say speech in the U.S. is more free than in Europe, that's an assertion that could be reasonably maintained.

There are people who maintain no speech whatsoever should be off limits because of this contradiction. However, there also many who are happy to say the limit is incitement to violence and still call it 'free speech'. I'm not being absolutely consistent, but then that is the same with many other people who stop at incitement to violence..

Maybe phrasing what I said in that way leaves me open to the argument you made I guess.

Jansen

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54296 on: January 16, 2019, 04:49:36 PM »

Uncle

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54297 on: January 16, 2019, 04:51:01 PM »
Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins

That still gives them leave to punch your dick tho
Uncle

Jansen

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54298 on: January 16, 2019, 04:51:59 PM »

Nintex

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Re: Other Forums |OT| Book Reading, Free Speech, and Full-Blown Centrists Within
« Reply #54299 on: January 16, 2019, 04:52:08 PM »
Quote
My third brother is in his mid-teens, and is the reason I'm making this thread. He's always been the friendly, outgoing one, and had a gentle heart. We had a good relationship for a while, and I felt like I could exert some influence on him to point him in the right direction regarding respect for women and all the other difficult things that young men are having trouble with in today's toxic masculine world. But when he started going through those typical teenage mood swings, he pulled away from me and fell under the influence of my brothers and dad, and soon enough he was watching Ben Shapiro and other right-wing garbage on Youtube. It was too late for me to reach him.

 :rejoice
🤴