It's 20XX and people are mad online about Star War!

[Human Snorenado]

Honestly tho, who gives a shit about Snoke? I'm glad they killed him off, he was boring. These new films have given us the most interesting, best developed villain in the SW universe in Kylo Ren as far as I'm concerned. More focus on an interesting, well developed villain with history and motivation and less on these Snidely Whiplash cornball motherfuckers, plz.

[Himu]

Kylo is cool but I dislike how they backtracked with him

[fistfulofmetal]

Whatever.

hey, i feel bad. i didn't mean to make you feel discouraged about talking about the movie. so sorry. i just wanted to lightly suggest best to pull back a bit on how aggressive you were being, but i probably came off a little condescending.

[TakingBackSunday]

An extended cut? They should have cut the fat from the Finn storyline. The fact they thought that was more important than filling out details on Snoke and other characterization makes no sense. An extended cut would is the last thing the movie needs.

As much as I would want to learn about Snoke, at the end of the day how does his backstory add to the main arc with Rey and Kylo?

[Mr. Gundam]

Other than the prequel-esque shiny CGI feel of Canto Bight, I enjoyed the movie.

I don't care if that bothers you. You not enjoying it doesn't bother me.

[TVC15]

An extended cut? They should have cut the fat from the Finn storyline. The fact they thought that was more important than filling out details on Snoke and other characterization makes no sense. An extended cut would is the last thing the movie needs.

As much as I would want to learn about Snoke, at the end of the day how does his backstory add to the main arc with Rey and Kylo?

A dude that came out of nowhere with big force powers and somehow managed to become the leader of the remnants of the Empire deserves at least a little backstory. Yes, he comes across as a lame clone of the Emperor, but the fact that he existed in two of these movies mens I need something about his backstory. Also, Serkis did a great job with him.

[Eel O'Brian]

Doesn't matter, TVC. These movies aren't really working towards reaching any sort of comprehensible end goal.

[TakingBackSunday]

An extended cut? They should have cut the fat from the Finn storyline. The fact they thought that was more important than filling out details on Snoke and other characterization makes no sense. An extended cut would is the last thing the movie needs.

As much as I would want to learn about Snoke, at the end of the day how does his backstory add to the main arc with Rey and Kylo?

A dude that came out of nowhere with big force powers and somehow managed to become the leader of the remnants of the Empire deserves at least a little backstory. Yes, he comes across as a lame clone of the Emperor, but the fact that he existed in two of these movies mens I need something about his backstory. Also, Serkis did a great job with him.

Again, I understand that desire to know, but to me it's inconsequential to the character development of Kylo, Rey, and even Luke.  Kylo has no love for the man, he simply exists for Kylo as his Emperor figure to his Vader.  Kylo killing him means much more to the audience's journey through Kylo's psyche than trying to understand or even humanize Snoke's intentions.

[fistfulofmetal]

Doesn't matter, TVC. These movies aren't really working towards reaching any sort of comprehensible end goal.

I think there's an end goal for the characters. Well, for Kylo, Ren, and Poe at least. I dunno what they want to do with Finn.

End goal for the world? Probably not. They want to leave things open to continue the franchise forever.

[Himu]

No it doesn't. Kylo kills the dude, then goes on to kill the guards, but still fights for the first order.

If it were treated in a manner where Sith Lord kills master to become the next master it'd work, but it wasn't treated like that in any manner.

[fistfulofmetal]

Kylo doesn't go on to fight for the FO. He becomes the leader of the FO. He kills Snoke because he takes the suggestions from Rey and the influences from Snoke and interprets them in a different way. In Rey's opinion you should learn from the past and bring elements from the past with you (she takes the Jedi books). Kylo wants to destroy the past and move on. Burn it all. Snoke is an element from his past, same as Luke. He destroys his past and assumes the leadership because he feels he can fix it. He thinks he and Rey are the same and they can fix it. Rey rejects this.

The interesting aspect - to me - is that Luke has similar views to Kylo, but again just a different interpretation of the same concept.

[Eel O'Brian]

I guess my biggest problem with these new movies is the same problem I had with the prequels, in that I never feel like I'm watching a movie so much as I feel like I'm watching someone play a Star Wars video game.

[etiolate]

Kylo was much better in TLJ, but I thought his character was lame as hell in TFA. I've said it before, but he kept reminding me of JP from Grandma's Boy. 

[eleuin]

After ruminating on it, the most egregious thing the movie did was kill ackbar

[Himu]

Kylo doesn't go on to fight for the FO. He becomes the leader of the FO. He kills Snoke because he takes the suggestions from Rey and the influences from Snoke and interprets them in a different way. In Rey's opinion you should learn from the past and bring elements from the past with you (she takes the Jedi books). Kylo wants to destroy the past and move on. Burn it all. Snoke is an element from his past, same as Luke. He destroys his past and assumes the leadership because he feels he can fix it. He thinks he and Rey are the same and they can fix it. Rey rejects this.

The interesting aspect - to me - is that Luke has similar views to Kylo, but again just a different interpretation of the same concept.

Does Kylo not deliberately say "destroy the Jedi, the first order;etc all of it? And rule the galaxy together?"

So he back tracked. He's still a part of the first order when he deliberately said "fuck the first order" or am I remember his dialogue wrong?

[Himu]

I guess my biggest problem with these new movies is the same problem I had with the prequels, in that I never feel like I'm watching a movie so much as I feel like I'm watching someone play a Star Wars video game.

Right?

[fistfulofmetal]

Does Kylo not deliberately say "destroy the Jedi, the first order;etc all of it? And rule the galaxy together?"

So he back tracked. He's still a part of the first order when he deliberately said "fuck the first order"

I don't recall if he specifically wanted to destroy the FO rather than take control. I recall the intention was the use the entire force of the FO to fix everything. He saw the power vacuum and wanted to use it. His killing of Snoke is meant to be viewed as a face-turn but then revealed to be more of a coup. He saw himself and Rey as being able to use the entire force of the FO for "good" or whatever he views as good.

Then Rey rejects him. He hedged him bets on it and it doesn't go the way he wanted.

Stuff like this - where a character contradicts themselves - is meant to inform the character. Kylo is insecure and his choices are based on his insecurities.

[benjipwns]

You not enjoying it doesn't bother me.

Oh just you wait for my masterplan to come to full fruition.

[benjipwns]

The reason the Thrawn Trilogy was/is so praised was not that it's brilliantly written, it's not significantly better than most licensed novels of the era

Come on, the other licensed novels of the era were like the Kevin J Anderson trilogy, The Courtship of Princess Leia, The Truce at Bakura, and other shitty books.

The Thrawn trilogy is like The Sound and the Fury next to that trash.

Jack, you're right, I completely misdated it by some years AND forgot that complete garbage that flooded out around both sides of Jedi that they didn't even let into the friggin EU.

Not even in "canon but..." status like some of those pre-Empire novels. And almost every comic they published for a long time.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Some of the worst licensed stuff is still the TNG stuff that was written based off of seeing Farpoint and reading some other season one scripts since they had to write the novels so far in advance of the show actually airing.

Funny enough, the Voyager books in the same circumstance wound up better than the show.

[close]

[Himu]

Does Kylo not deliberately say "destroy the Jedi, the first order;etc all of it? And rule the galaxy together?"

So he back tracked. He's still a part of the first order when he deliberately said "fuck the first order"

I don't recall if he specifically wanted to destroy the FO rather than take control. I recall the intention was the use the entire force of the FO to fix everything. He saw the power vacuum and wanted to use it. His killing of Snoke is meant to be viewed as a face-turn but then revealed to be more of a coup. He saw himself and Rey as being able to use the entire force of the FO for "good" or whatever he views as good.

Then Rey rejects him. He hedged him bets on it and it doesn't go the way he wanted.

Stuff like this - where a character contradicts themselves - is meant to inform the character. Kylo is insecure and his choices are based on his insecurities.

The problem is that the movie establishes early on that there's more to the force than good and evil and that the force belongs to all, which hints at a more gray take on the force. So Kylo saying,"fuck the Jedi, fuck the first order, fuck the rebels, all that shit. come with me" it feels like he is moving beyond the good/evil dichotomy (which is great btw) and rising above the first order. Because the kid doesn't need it. But then, it backtracks and he's still with the first order? I'm going to need the dialogue to that scene agai but it feels like a colossal backtrack.

Am I alone in this interpretation?

[fistfulofmetal]

It could be a backtrack. But that is consistent with the character they have presented. He makes mistakes because he doesn't always think about what he's doing. His choice to kill Snoke wasn't some grand plan - he decided to do it right then and there. His choice to burn it all down and have Rey join him was something he came up with on the spot. But it didn't go that way and he wasn't secure enough to go along with the idea himself. So Rey rejects him and he is confronted by Hux, he backtracks and takes control of the FO.

I'm sure we'll see more about that in the next movie.

[benjipwns]

Look none of this matters because we know JJ's gonna fuck it up.

[Himu]

It could be a backtrack. But that is consistent with the character they have presented. He makes mistakes because he doesn't always think about what he's doing. His choice to kill Snoke wasn't some grand plan - he decided to do it right then and there. His choice to burn it all down and have Rey join him was something he came up with on the spot. But it didn't go that way and he wasn't secure enough to go along with the idea himself. So Rey rejects him and he is confronted by Hux, he backtracks and takes control of the FO.

I'm sure we'll see more about that in the next movie.

I can see that but at the same time, the way it's communicated doesn't make it exactly good either. I'm left kind of not caring where it goes in ep9 because they backtracked.

"He just does things" isn't really compelling enough reason to kill Snoke but that's my personal opinion.

[TVC15]

Look none of this matters because we know JJ's gonna fuck it up.

It’s impossible to fuck up as much as the dude that wrote Brick.

[agrajag]

He could have also been telling bullshit to Rey and being emotional. I mean, he offered her to rule the galaxy together, does it make sense to scrap the first order all together if that's his plan?

[Himu]

Good point but he also seemed like he was above the first order as well.

I don't know!

[Human Snorenado]

I guess my biggest problem with these new movies is the same problem I had with the prequels, in that I never feel like I'm watching a movie so much as I feel like I'm watching someone play a Star Wars video game.

I still maintain that the very last scene in the movie is the most important one, because it's got the kids playing with struggle looking action figures doing their own Star War.

And to me that's what all of these movies are- kids that loved Star War (Abrams, Edwards, Johnson, etc) growing up and getting to make their own Star War with real life people and Lucasfilm/Disney resources.

Which is still better than the prequels, somehow.

[Bebpo]

On Ren, yeah I don’t think he was thinking things through with a coup or anything. He basically was presented a choice to kill Rey or kill Snokes. Through the connection talks he felt with Rey he’d found someone else like him, who could understand him and maybe there was some romantic feelings too, so when he’s presented with a hard choice who chooses her over Snokes and then tries to appeal to her and fails and then he’s like uh, fuck it I’ll run this ship now and burn it all down.

Considering all this was done in the moment, what he wants to do next once he has time to think may be interesting if they don’t screw up ep IX.

[Himu]

I guess my biggest problem with these new movies is the same problem I had with the prequels, in that I never feel like I'm watching a movie so much as I feel like I'm watching someone play a Star Wars video game.

I still maintain that the very last scene in the movie is the most important one, because it's got the kids playing with struggle looking action figures doing their own Star War.

And to me that's what all of these movies are- kids that loved Star War (Abrams, Edwards, Johnson, etc) growing up and getting to make their own Star War with real life people and Lucasfilm/Disney resources.

Which is still better than the prequels, somehow.

You have far lower expectations than me I guess.

I expect when you dump billions into buying a franchise that you make it quality so I guess I've been expecting too much. But your description is apt. It's nothing but a bunch of grown up dudes making their own fan fiction. Except with real actors and not toys. Good mindset to have. Go in as cynical as all possible. Even that's better than me going in with zero expectations except to be just entertained.

I like your moxie.

[TVC15]

I guess my biggest problem with these new movies is the same problem I had with the prequels, in that I never feel like I'm watching a movie so much as I feel like I'm watching someone play a Star Wars video game.

I still maintain that the very last scene in the movie is the most important one, because it's got the kids playing with struggle looking action figures doing their own Star War.

And to me that's what all of these movies are- kids that loved Star War (Abrams, Edwards, Johnson, etc) growing up and getting to make their own Star War with real life people and Lucasfilm/Disney resources.

Which is still better than the prequels, somehow.

I’d expect a heartwarming point of view like this from an old softy like you.

[benjipwns]

I think why it’s annoying in TLJ/TFA is because it’s a sequel. There was a presumed status quo where the rebels won after ROTJ. Clearly something happened where they didn’t really win. Snoke came from somewhere and the first Order rose to Power somehow. There just seems to be a big gap in the story.

in TFA they have lines that suggest THE RESISTANCE is basically plausible deniability black ops for the New Republic, and then the Starkiller Base blasts the New Republic off the face of the galaxy, so they kinda have to become a legitimate RESISTANCE at that point since a trillion people and the entire central structure of the New Republic along with its economy/governance/fleets/etc. just got wiped out

i assumed the First Order was basically reconstituted factions of the Empire, ala they break up into warring factions like in Thrawn, but Snoke or whoever gathered enough of the factions to realign them and others just started hopping on, which is why they seem to be equipped by Empire weapons, and even stuff like the Starkiller Base could have been old Empire shit that they started work back on again, maybe it sat dormant and hidden for ten years while the Empire was busted up, till whoever knew about it was like "oh yeah, we have this thing that's like a death star only a billion times more powerful, totally forgot we were working on that" but they aren't like full Empire power, maybe 75% of them with the rest turning into pirates or some shit

or just being unconnected, i mean Star Wars has always been galactic in scope but it's been mostly in theory, they hyperspeed between systems in seconds flat, but it's been suggested in the prequels and EU stuff that there were "lanes" where hyperspeed/communications/travel was faster and other areas where things weren't as viable, so i could imagine that like say the Aussie version of the Empire is totally cut off, like if we lost all our airplanes and had smaller ships, we might not put contact with them as a priority so they could be off doing their own thing during these new movies while we focused on getting lines to Yurop back up

none of this comes from Wookiepedia so plz to check there for accurate canon thx

[kingv]

On Ren, yeah I don’t think he was thinking things through with a coup or anything. He basically was presented a choice to kill Rey or kill Snokes. Through the connection talks he felt with Rey he’d found someone else like him, who could understand him and maybe there was some romantic feelings too, so when he’s presented with a hard choice who chooses her over Snokes and then tries to appeal to her and fails and then he’s like uh, fuck it I’ll run this ship now and burn it all down.

Considering all this was done in the moment, what he wants to do next once he has time to think may be interesting if they don’t screw up ep IX.

A lot of dudes will betray their friends for some pussy.

That’s the moral of Star Wars really.

[TVC15]

On Ren, yeah I don’t think he was thinking things through with a coup or anything. He basically was presented a choice to kill Rey or kill Snokes. Through the connection talks he felt with Rey he’d found someone else like him, who could understand him and maybe there was some romantic feelings too, so when he’s presented with a hard choice who chooses her over Snokes and then tries to appeal to her and fails and then he’s like uh, fuck it I’ll run this ship now and burn it all down.

Considering all this was done in the moment, what he wants to do next once he has time to think may be interesting if they don’t screw up ep IX.

A lot of dudes will betray their friends for some pussy.

That’s the moral of Star Wars really.

Except for Luke, the Man Hero that Never Slayed a Puss.

[benjipwns]

Endor was a backwater moon, the Empire losing their half completed BUT FULLY OPERATIONAL Death Star there, along with the Emperor, wouldn't bring the whole thing collapsing down despite what the later tacked on celebration scenes to ROTJ indicate.

In the now non-canon EU, there was never a treaty, but a brief armistice before the war continued in varying forms for decades.

In the new Abramsverse, the Empire immediately surrendered and signed peace accords. And the New Republic moved to disarm itself almost entirely. Except the First Order didn't obey the peace treaty BECAUSE THEY EVIL.

With the New Republic now the dominant force in the galaxy, it continuously stressed upholding the values of democracy throughout the stars. In spite of such, however, the New Republic was not without its critics, many of them being disgruntled sympathizers of the Old Imperial ways, some of whom were a part of the political structure. Once disagreements between the loyalists and Imperial sympathizers became too severe, the latter group would eventually secede, whereupon they would establish the First Order along with the former elements of the Imperial military that still inhabited the Unknown Regions. While some in the Galactic Senate applauded the notion, others realized that without New Republic supervision, the Order would return to the draconian ways of its predecessor.[8] Owing to it being descended from the Empire in ideology, the First Order, upon being formed within the Unknown Region alongside various former Imperial officers, technologists, nobles, and other pro-Imperial supporters, intended to reclaim their legacy.[6]

Disillusioned with the infighting in the Senate, Leia resigned as Senator and founded the Resistance to safeguard the Republic from all threats.[3]

Under Leia's leadership, the Resistance became a private military force that kept watch over the First Order's movements. Although she petitioned for assistance from the New Republic, the Senate was too self-absorbed to take much notice and its slow political process frustrated the former princess.

Some thirty years after the Emperor's defeat at Endor, in 34 ABY, a cold war developed between the growing First Order and the New Republic. Despite warnings from General Organa about the dangers of the First Order, the Senate, led by Chancellor Lanever Villecham focused more on improving trade relationships with the neutral Trans-Hydian Borderlands systems. Believing that the First Order was remaining within their assigned borders and following the tenants of the Galactic Concordance, the Senate and Chancellor Villecham saw little cause for alarm.[5] New Republic military officers like Major Lonno Deso generally regarded the First Order as an ill-equipped, ill-funded terrorist group that simply had a good propaganda arm, and even considered Organa and her allies scaremongering troublemakers trying to relive their glory days.[4]

In the hopes of convincing the Senate to her point of view, Organa sent Resistance Commander Korr Sella to as an envoy to make a case for action by the New Republic.[5] Determined to reveal its true power, the First Order, led by Supreme Leader Snoke, attacked the New Republic using its superweapon, the Starkiller Base, commanded by General Armitage Hux. It harnessed the sun's power and then destroyed the planets of the Hosnian system, including Hosnian Prime which at that time was serving as the Republic capital and hosting the Senate and the New Republic fleet. The Resistance in turn attacked Starkiller Base and was able to destroy it before it could be used against their headquarters on D'Qar.[22]

Despite the destruction of the First Order's most fearsome weapon, the loss of Hosnian Prime proved to be a dire blow to the New Republic. With its government decapitated, its main fleet wiped out, and the Resistance subsequently besieged and decimated, it was estimated that the New Republic's core systems would all fall to the First Order's forces within a matter of weeks.[7]

[Himu]

Thanks for schooling us, Benji. Where can I read more?

[benjipwns]

Basically, the New Republic elected Obama, who went on an apology tour and decimated the military both financially and in morale. While the First Order hired Putin and found some Sith Lords.

[Mandark]

I actually went to Wookieepedia after seeing TFA cause I was baffled by the world-building in it.

The First Order is basically interwar Germany, so we can infer that Snoke's backstory is he had one ball and didn't get into art school.

[Great Rumbler]

Wookiepedia

[benjipwns]

Basically, the New Republic elected Obama

Look who's being all "edgy" with the Martin Peretz/Franklin Foer commentary.

[Freyj]

Honestly tho, who gives a shit about Snoke? I'm glad they killed him off, he was boring. These new films have given us the most interesting, best developed villain in the SW universe in Kylo Ren as far as I'm concerned. More focus on an interesting, well developed villain with history and motivation and less on these Snidely Whiplash cornball motherfuckers, plz.

Have Snoke praise Kylo or some shit for completing his training and let it fuck with Kylo from that point forward. Constantly paranoid that the next guy is gonna kill him.

[Himu]

Honestly tho, who gives a shit about Snoke? I'm glad they killed him off, he was boring. These new films have given us the most interesting, best developed villain in the SW universe in Kylo Ren as far as I'm concerned. More focus on an interesting, well developed villain with history and motivation and less on these Snidely Whiplash cornball motherfuckers, plz.

Have Snoke praise Kylo or some shit for completing his training and let it fuck with Kylo from that point forward. Constantly paranoid that the next guy is gonna kill him.

Seriously. All they needed was one damn line.

[headwalk]

I guess my biggest problem with these new movies is the same problem I had with the prequels, in that I never feel like I'm watching a movie so much as I feel like I'm watching someone play a Star Wars video game.

there's a reason for that. up until recently at least, the job of the game writer was to somehow stitch together all the set pieces and encounters that the designers had in mind. wasn't rare to have all these moments already morealess set in stone when the writer was brought in to somehow provide context and make sense of it with a minimal amount of screen time.

the new films feel a lot like that.

[Borealis]

Ren's past and relationship with Skywalker, plus Driver's acting, really elevate his character. It's his characterisation and context that strongly contribute to one of TLJ's strengths. You don't have that with Snoke, or any other antagonist/villain in TLJ. Hux is cliched (lame authority accent too), and remarkably incompetent, while Plasma's (re)appearance is almost meaningless. Snoke's background didn't have to be explicitly outlined, but context to the First Order's strength is much needed.

The stakes, especially with "the Resistance really need to defeat the oppressive/tyrannical First Order!!!", resemble a poor retread without context. I shouldn't have to visit Wookiepedia to figure out the political/social situation behind WTF is going on the galaxy and why we should give a shit about the Resistance. Yes, it's Star Wars, but I'm finding those infrequent moments relating to the light/dark-side or "grey" mix much more interesting than the entire Resistance + FO conflict that dominates so much of the recent films.

With TLJ's developments, I honestly hope the FO win.

[TVC15]

Wookiepedia

The darkest place I’ve seen Mandark go since the Etiolate fan ero-fantasy I had some weeks ago.

[Momo]

I can't care this much about Star Wars to argue like you guys, I'm a trekkie and JJ already slayed me :'( .

I want to ask you all something though, when did 'subverting expectations' (not saying star wars does this or does this well, just seeing it come up a lot) become a positive attribute of a film sans context? Seems like a thing a director who targets their audience with bile would do. I understand it in the context where you target misogynists, racists and turn a sexist trope on it's head, but in the case of star wars where you're just fucking with your fans, why? If this was the internet you'd be called an edgelord and flamed lmao. What do you guys as the audience get out of it? Seems to only work for outsiders so they can mine salt and write polygon articles hating on fans.

[chronovore]

All three should be for murdering the pacing and enjoyment of this movie.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

also what the fuck happened to the Knights of Ren?

[close]

I suspect:

spoiler (click to show/hide)

They're totally the Royal Guards defending Snoke. 

But in reality, another dropped plot thread. Johnson positions the film as some sort of auteur 'subversion' to Star Wars canon and lore, but it really comes across as a rather bloated, internally inconsistent, and poorly-paced follow-up to TFA.

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Knights of Ren are probably the students who Kylo did not slaughter. Whatever Kylo and Ren are, they're Ben's adopted name in the service of Snoke. It may be a historical name, such as emperors or popes adopt, or it may be a Sith title.

Your idea that they're the Supreme Leader's Guards is pretty great, though if they were Force adept it would have made sense for them to wield lightsabers instead of those powered weapons.

[close]

[team filler]

chewbacca should have at least 11 inches of wookie cock hanging out. disney playin it safe

[Freyj]

I can't care this much about Star Wars to argue like you guys, I'm a trekkie and JJ already slayed me :'( .

I want to ask you all something though, when did 'subverting expectations' (not saying star wars does this or does this well, just seeing it come up a lot) become a positive attribute of a film sans context? Seems like a thing a director who targets their audience with bile would do. I understand it in the context where you target misogynists, racists and turn a sexist trope on it's head, but in the case of star wars where you're just fucking with your fans, why? If this was the internet you'd be called an edgelord and flamed lmao. What do you guys as the audience get out of it? Seems to only work for outsiders so they can mine salt and write polygon articles hating on fans.

I still think "subverting expectations" is more something people have attributed to TLJ than something TLJ really earns. That and meta narrative seem to be all the rage suddenly.

[VomKriege]

I still think "subverting expectations" is more something people have attributed to TLJ than something TLJ really earns. That and meta narrative seem to be all the rage suddenly.

Can't speak or don't care about the Star Wars film but yeah there's an awful lot of projection from film fandom in general.

[TVC15]

chewbacca should have at least 11 inches of wookie cock hanging out. disney playin it safe

And his ass should be all matted and covered in shit since it would be impossible to wipe well.

[Himu]

Why does subverting expectations make a film good exactly? No one has answered that part yet. Seems real shallow.

[Himu]

Sure, subverting expectations can be good. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's good, though, like I said. Freyj is right. It doesn't even subvert expectations in any real way: pretty much everyone expected Luke to die this movie (or next) and Leia to continue.

[chronovore]

I've got a lot of thoughts on this, but I'm still processing much of it. I'm enjoying reading the thread from many pages back, catching up on the spoilers — thanks, everyone, for being conscientious about not displaying them. I'll try to do the same.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

The dark side cave having nothing to offer Rey is the lamest shit I could imagine for the obvious Degobah callback. I genuinely don't buy into Rey = Mary Sue complaints and think that her naivety and child like view of the Force, Jedi, etc is actually sort of fresh in TFA, but that scene absolutely murders the defense against Rey complaints.

She's just so pure that the Dark Side doesn't even tempt her? Fuck off. She can be better than Luke was here, but please make her work for it.

[close]

Yeah like what the fuck was the point of it?

spoiler (click to show/hide)

She sees herself in the mirror? what in the fuck. It had absolutely nothing to say for being teased as this dark, fucked up place

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I believe it is the difference between free will and fate. Both are at play in the SW universe, and Rey recognizes and sees herself in a continuum. She's recognizing that she exists along a path which has a past and a future, and she sees where she resonates and has choice, though it may have been set in place earlier than her conscious decision and will have repercussions after she's made it.

[close]

Part of the problem is that the Force is not just the light side, a theme repeated throughout the movie. You have the yin/yang pendant, a light/dark mosaic on Luke's island, and the whole sequence of scenes depicting life on the island. There is always balance.

In the original trilogy, Darth Sidious' existence was enough to cause the Force to manifest an opposite number, going so far as to give Anakin a virgin birth. Sidious unfortunately was so canny as to find Anakin and co-opt him into the Sith order — but we should never forget that in the end it was Anakin, not Luke, who throws Palpatine/Sidious down one of those incredibly poorly considered cavernous holes that seem to be everywhere in the Death Star.

The idea that the Force itself creates what it must to maintain balance, even if it takes time and still may cause strife as it finds its way toward manifesting change, is consistent with what was presented.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

The idea that Rey came from "nothings" or "nobodies" is absolutely fucking fantastic and wonderful. The Prequels set aside the Force as the providence of the Jedi, of beings with a high midichlorian count. Everyone has the Force, but only people who have high midichlorians can actually be effective with it. Changing it instead so that saying that the Jedi have prevented people from using it by being the focus of a cult of personality, and shifting it to something which truly is in each of us, putting our responsibility back on us for looking out for ourselves, and taking action against oppression — that's beautiful.

Kylo missteps by announcing it in that fashion to Rey. He intends to hurt her enough to push her into his arms. Kylo is using a PUA technique by trying to get Rey to feel useless and alone, and only he understands her. It's fucking brilliant and chilling, and REY IS HAVING NONE OF IT.

At the same time, because she asks to see her parents and is instead shown an image of herself, it's also possible that she's another manifestation like Anakin, which would go some distance toward explaining her strength.

[close]

[Great Rumbler]

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-list-of-some-of-the-times-the-last-jedi-told-the-olde-1821396631

Lots of SPOILERS, obviously.

[chronovore]

I loved it. There's definitely some issues but this was a fun Star Wars movie. I'm really curious WTF they were thinking with Benicio Del Toros character. He was so fucking bad.

I liked him, but wondered where they were going with it.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

At first it seemed like The Force was giving them what they needed. Maz Kanata pointed them at the gambler, saying look for this crest — I can't recall if she was specifically describing the gambler, or "how to find the gambler," if I can split a fine hair. Maz is Force-sensitive, so it's feasible. Finding the flower-guy is what they need to get in contact with the codebreaker they meet.

Then it turns out he is a good guy, then a bad guy, then a really good guy… then a really bad guy.

My honest reaction was that he was a Han Solo type, the shapeshifter from Campbellian myth that you can't rely on to do anything but look out for himself. But if they find him again in Episode IX, I expect Finn or Rose will shoot him in the cock for being directly responsible for selling out the 30 ships en route to the hidden base.

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[TEEEPO]

this is a tricky subject. subverting the audiences expectations doesn't inherently make a film good – and nobody has said that -- but in the right hands, it becomes a powerful tool. michael haneke and lars von trier are two notable directors who have made careers out of toying with expectations . both directors have subverted expectations in their most successful films while also having used it as a means to piss off both their respective audiences and critics in others, e.g. nymphomaniac and funny games, the latter of which i recognize as being a modern masterpiece despite absolutely hating it




though i'm not going to give rian johnson that kind of credit in subverting expectations; the fans are playing themselves. and to quickly give my impressions on the last jedi. through its entire duration the film was in desperate need of a rhythmic beat but the ideas that rian johnson explored have some real weight and gives the universe some much needed depth. the marquee scenes were well worth fighting through the few times i almost fell asleep

however, there were times tlj didn't feel like a proper "star wars" film. the hyperdrive scene, as cool as it may be, would've been more fitting in battlestar galatica than star wars. infact, the entire scene trivialized every military altercation that came before it. i have a list of compliants but whatever, outside of esb, star wars has always been dumb

in short, the movie was good. get fucked nerds

[Himu]

Chrono:

I figured her being reflected might mean she is another forced created being like Anakin. That said, she still shouldn't be able to fight like that with so little training.

I'm not sure I agree about the movies representation of the force. They movie definitely says that all life has the force and it doesn't belong to the light or the Jedi, but the problem is that the movie really doesn't represent that outside of Luke doing what he thinks is right and trying to get Kylo. Maybe Ben killing Snoke and all the guards, but I'm not convinced and we don't have a confirmation that action was done purely out of goodness. Rey herself still stays light and doesn't really do much in the way of dark actions. So I'm not seeing how the movie is gray.

[Huff]

Was I suppose to bust out laughing during Leias michael jordan scene?

[chronovore]

Honestly, walking out, I don’t even see how this was divisive. It was just another SW movie.

Because nerds got their feels hurt that the characters and story beats weren't exactly as they planned in their head and now they're doing a Simpson comic book guy impersonation.

There is some legit criticism but this movie can hang with the OT and Empire; I think it's even better.

I’m not sure I agree with your last point. I enjoyed this movie, but it feels far too much in debt to modern blockbusters. I guess I’ll have to see how it ages, especially after seeing the final episode.

My biggest issues...

spoiler (click to show/hide)

1. We’re never going to get an explanation on Snoke. To do it after his death would be anticlimactic. I did enjoy the “kill the big bad in the middle” bit, but now the mystery of who Snoke was is likely impossible to satisfactorily address. I’m sure there will be a shitty comic book.

2. Why would Poe let BB8 go with Finn and Rose on their secret mission when he knew there was a significant chance he might have to fly to defend the Resistance?

3. The Leia in space scene was terrible. We’ve never seen her use force powers before. What a cheesy time to show them. This also could have been easily written around. Worst scene in the movie.

4. Biggest sin: Why waste Laura Dern on this shitty role without any personality? She’s one of the best actresses on the planet.

5. The score is so recycled and so reverent to the original score that I can’t even tell what’s new music anymore. It’s a constant barrage of distinctly Star Wars-y brass, but at this point, it’s so rote. Please be more adventurous with the music.

6. A lot could have been chopped from that Finn and Rose plot.  I’m not even sure why the Rose character was necessary to create. Probably a more pointless Rose than even that of MGS2. Hopefully she dies early in the next movie. She’s not even good looking. She’s fucking hideous.

7. Maybe a cheat, or insensitive, but they should’ve used the Leia fake out death to kill her. It’s going to feel shitty killing her offscreen immediately after she’s recovered from a life-threatening injury in the next movie.

[close]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

1. http://starwarsrebels.wikia.com/wiki/The_Grand_Inquisitor
2. Poe can fly without BB8, he'd just prefer not to. My impression is that he was still un-trusting of Adm. Hodo/Dern, who really appeared to have no fucking plan at all.
7. Yeah, it sadly seems like a missed opportunity — the contentious stuff about he Falcon's shiny dice and appearing to Leia could have been dropped, making Luke's appearance more mystical and unsettling.

[close]

[Momo]

I can't care this much about Star Wars to argue like you guys, I'm a trekkie and JJ already slayed me :'( .

I want to ask you all something though, when did 'subverting expectations' (not saying star wars does this or does this well, just seeing it come up a lot) become a positive attribute of a film sans context? Seems like a thing a director who targets their audience with bile would do. I understand it in the context where you target misogynists, racists and turn a sexist trope on it's head, but in the case of star wars where you're just fucking with your fans, why? If this was the internet you'd be called an edgelord and flamed lmao. What do you guys as the audience get out of it? Seems to only work for outsiders so they can mine salt and write polygon articles hating on fans.

I still think "subverting expectations" is more something people have attributed to TLJ than something TLJ really earns. That and meta narrative seem to be all the rage suddenly.

I personally agree about there not being a huge swell of subversion in here and it's mostly fans being fans, hence the disclaimer. I'm just baffled that people seem to see movie makers mocking their own fanbase as a positive, as that would seem to be the case for subversion here.