Author Topic: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread  (Read 48098 times)

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The Walrus

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #120 on: December 04, 2015, 02:24:06 PM »
Best facebook comment so far "Liberals thought this was going to be about gun control but it turns out they were Muslim"

I fucking hate this. There are approximately 86 billion neurons in my brain. If the word hate was engraved on each axon, on each dendrite of those tens of billions of neurons it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for this argument in this micro-instant.

So there have been dozens and dozens of mass shootings that had nothing to do with Islamic extremism. Based on this, many liberals and moderates have developed a preferred policy solution for mass shootings. Suddenly all that is invalid because in this one instance, the perpetrators were Islamic extremists?

I guess they sure showed us. Right-wing media needs Annihilation of the Year awards for gems like this.

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #121 on: December 04, 2015, 02:24:07 PM »
These reporters are acting like they're in an adventure game, stuffing all that evidence in their item bag.

I'm at work and I can't watch right now but are you fucking serious? They are literally taking shit out of the apartment?

Not that I know of, but the whole looking at clues in what should be a secured crime scene is Phoenix Wright as fuck.

benjipwns

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #122 on: December 04, 2015, 02:24:46 PM »
Quote
CNN reporters outside San Bernardino killers' home says landlord was escorted away by law enforcement, put into unmarked vehicle
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benjipwns

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #123 on: December 04, 2015, 02:27:09 PM »
FBI taking over, now officially a terrorism investigation.

They destroyed cell phones, etc.
meowr

Boogie

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #124 on: December 04, 2015, 02:30:38 PM »
There it is.  Scene had been released by FBI.   So this wasn't a law enforcement fuckup.  (Thank God)
MMA

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #125 on: December 04, 2015, 03:32:56 PM »
Landlord should have got some raffle tickets, sold 'em at like 5 bucks a pop and people pass them to some asshole to enter. If you're going to be gross and exploit the fact that they lived there, you might as well go whole hog American and make some money off it too.

 :american

Human Snorenado

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #126 on: December 04, 2015, 04:07:27 PM »
Guys, police work is hard

yar

Phoenix Dark

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #127 on: December 04, 2015, 04:27:39 PM »
Obama convinced the media to turn this into a circus in order to make people forget a terrorist attack occurred. He learned this tactic from his experience in black churches. For those who have never been to a funeral at a black church, the choir and audience throws a party/revival for 90 minutes until an old pastor walks to the pulpit and reminds everyone "there's a man (or woman) in there" and points at the casket. Then the first tears fall.
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brawndolicious

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #128 on: December 04, 2015, 04:33:35 PM »
If law enforcement truly wasn't finished with the scene, this is the worst scene security I have ever seen.

You sit a couple of uniforms in front of the door for as long as you need the scene.  Seriously, that's day 1 stuff, people.

From my perspective it's shocking since I would have thought they need several days to just go through it for fingerprints, bomb materials, etc. How could the media think this wasn't a bad idea and that they're contaminating the crime scene (ie: evidence linking the buyer of the guns). I can't believe they would be so stupid in chasing a story.

Edit: they finished processing it already?

Boogie

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #129 on: December 04, 2015, 04:58:38 PM »

From my perspective it's shocking since I would have thought they need several days to just go through it for fingerprints, bomb materials, etc. 

Edit: they finished processing it already?

Naw.  Depending on the extent of what they were searching for and the size and state of the residence, it's not unusual at all that they could be in and done in under a day.
MMA

Am_I_Anonymous

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #130 on: December 04, 2015, 06:10:46 PM »

From my perspective it's shocking since I would have thought they need several days to just go through it for fingerprints, bomb materials, etc. 

Edit: they finished processing it already?

Naw.  Depending on the extent of what they were searching for and the size and state of the residence, it's not unusual at all that they could be in and done in under a day.

Looked a small place too. A team of 5 could turn that in a few hours.
YMMV

Joe Molotov

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #131 on: December 04, 2015, 06:26:14 PM »
MSNBC looked like they were in Fallout 4 mode. Probably grabbed all the duct tape and hot plates on the way out.  :doge
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drew

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #132 on: December 04, 2015, 06:28:57 PM »
I'm actually kinda torn on this whole gun thing. I own a few guns, i think everybody knows that. And I'm very against taking them away.  However I can also see how if this shit went down in Texas it would result in 30 additional shooting victims because once those rednecks start firing I'm not sure what's going to stop them.

Sucks.

Has never happened in the history of legal use of CCW for self defense.  It's not like this is something we don't have a track record for.

You solve problems with the brain you have, not the brain you wish you had.

Et tu, Brute?

Madrun Badrun

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #133 on: December 04, 2015, 06:36:11 PM »
I'm actually kinda torn on this whole gun thing. I own a few guns, i think everybody knows that. And I'm very against taking them away.  However I can also see how if this shit went down in Texas it would result in 30 additional shooting victims because once those rednecks start firing I'm not sure what's going to stop them.

Sucks.

Has never happened in the history of legal use of CCW for self defense.  It's not like this is something we don't have a track record for.

http://www.khou.com/story/news/2015/09/27/one-man-injured-after-carjacking-shooting-at-gas-station/72923278/ in Texas too

in before you make a true scotsman argument.
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Joe Molotov

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #134 on: December 04, 2015, 08:23:05 PM »
You solve problems with the brain you have, not the brain you wish you had.

Et tu, Brute?

I'm just teasing, I don't know what the solution is either.

But it's probably not "bomb control":
 http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/marco-rubio-liberals-talk-about-gun-control-after-ca-attack-but-no-one-is-talking-about-bomb-control/#.VmHm0LHNLtE.twitter
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benjipwns

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #136 on: December 05, 2015, 01:27:49 AM »
MSNBC looked like they were in Fallout 4 mode. Probably grabbed all the duct tape and hot plates on the way out.  :doge
There's been some...budget cuts.
meowr

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #137 on: December 05, 2015, 01:37:49 AM »
NYT front-page is a gun control editorial tomorrow, their first front-page editorial since 1920.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #138 on: December 05, 2015, 02:12:12 AM »
Finally, the game changer this debate needs.
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benjipwns

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #140 on: December 05, 2015, 12:25:24 PM »
Quote
It is a moral outrage and a national disgrace that civilians can legally purchase weapons designed specifically to kill people with brutal speed and efficiency. These are weapons of war, barely modified and deliberately marketed as tools of macho vigilantism and even insurrection. America’s elected leaders offer prayers for gun victims and then, callously and without fear of consequence, reject the most basic restrictions on weapons of mass killing, as they did on Thursday. They distract us with arguments about the word terrorism. Let’s be clear: These spree killings are all, in their own ways, acts of terrorism.

Opponents of gun control are saying, as they do after every killing, that no law can unfailingly forestall a specific criminal. That is true. They are talking, many with sincerity, about the constitutional challenges to effective gun regulation. Those challenges exist. They point out that determined killers obtained weapons illegally in places like France, England and Norway that have strict gun laws. Yes, they did.

But at least those countries are trying. The United States is not. Worse, politicians abet would-be killers by creating gun markets for them, and voters allow those politicians to keep their jobs. It is past time to stop talking about halting the spread of firearms, and instead to reduce their number drastically — eliminating some large categories of weapons and ammunition.

It is not necessary to debate the peculiar wording of the Second Amendment. No right is unlimited and immune from reasonable regulation.

Certain kinds of weapons, like the slightly modified combat rifles used in California, and certain kinds of ammunition, must be outlawed for civilian ownership. It is possible to define those guns in a clear and effective way and, yes, it would require Americans who own those kinds of weapons to give them up for the good of their fellow citizens.

What better time than during a presidential election to show, at long last, that our nation has retained its sense of decency?
Well, I'm convinced by their cold rational logic, clear statements and goals, detailed information and inventive new thought provoking arguments.

Also this comment:
Quote
Anthony NYC New York 14 hours ago
We ban texting and driving even though free speech is protected by the Constitution. But we can't ban assault weapons because of the second amendment? Really?

488 Recommend

spoiler (click to show/hide)
:neogaf

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
Liz Vermont 14 hours ago
Run this every day until they have the decency and courage to act.

228 Recommend
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NS NYC 12 hours ago
In a matter of weeks or months, the nations most wealthy (Gates, Zuckerberg, Buffett) individuals could take controlling interests in US arms and ammunition corporations and, using that power, inject conscience and control into what are surely morally bankrupts boardrooms.

124 Recommend
Quote
ScoutandAbout USA 14 hours ago
Thank God the issue of Gun Control is finally coming to the forefront of America's consciousness. Too bad it has taken over 300 mass shootings this year alone to force us to face this epidemic of uncontrolled violence. Hoping it is not too late.

106 Recommend
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 12:29:59 PM by benjipwns »
meowr

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #141 on: December 05, 2015, 12:33:28 PM »
Eat a bag of dicks
yar

Mandark

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #142 on: December 05, 2015, 02:53:30 PM »
ha ha ha look at people being emotional just cause of constant violent deaths ha ha ha

curly

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #143 on: December 05, 2015, 07:10:54 PM »
Libertarians :trash

curly

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #144 on: December 05, 2015, 07:11:40 PM »
When will people realize the real violence is mandatory education?

Shadow Mod

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #145 on: December 05, 2015, 11:09:36 PM »
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/they-are-coming-for-you-sandy-hook-truthers-escalate-threats-by-posting-home-address-of-victims-sister/

wtf at this

Bad enough to lose a family member in such a tragedy, now you get threatened and harassed by conspiracy theorists about it? Ugh.

Joe Molotov

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #146 on: December 06, 2015, 12:22:31 AM »
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/they-are-coming-for-you-sandy-hook-truthers-escalate-threats-by-posting-home-address-of-victims-sister/

wtf at this

Bad enough to lose a family member in such a tragedy, now you get threatened and harassed by conspiracy theorists about it? Ugh.

How are these people still a thing, ffs? Nobody came and got your guns after Sandy Hook, nobody did anything, just let these poor people live in peace.
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Madrun Badrun

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #147 on: December 06, 2015, 12:30:52 AM »
By being the family member of a hoaxer, they drew first blood, Joe.  They drew first blood.   
NtGay

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #148 on: December 06, 2015, 01:16:37 AM »
:piss Alex Jones :piss2
dog

Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #149 on: December 06, 2015, 02:30:58 AM »
Every time one of these mass shootings happens I'm basically ready to turn mine in. I realize my ownership of rifles, shotguns, and handguns for my personal enjoyment is not more important than the public good. But I think that the "common sense" gun laws proposed by today's liberal leaders (expanded background checks, "assault weapon" bans, repealing weapons manufacturer civil immunity, limiting access by the mentally ill, etc.) simply doesn't do enough. This country has too many guns and I think that the Australia model (sweeping bans, government buyback) is probably the best model to reduce them.

But there are problems with this model too. This NYT op-ed does a pretty good job of addressing my hesitations:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/06/opinion/sunday/liberalisms-gun-problem.html

Quote
I DO NOT own guns, and the last time I discharged a firearm was on “Second Amendment Day” at a conservative journalism program many years ago. (Yes, dear reader, that’s how conservative journalism programs roll.) My political commitments are more communitarian than libertarian, I don’t think the constitution guarantees a right to bear every kind of gun or magazine, and I think of myself as modestly persuadable in the gun control debate.

Of course that doesn’t mean I really am, since we’re all tribal creatures and gun rights advocates are part of my strange and motley right-wing tribe. But at the very least I understand why the idea of strict gun control has such a following, why it seems to many people like the obvious response to mass shootings — whether the perpetrators are ISIS sympathizers, mad right-wingers, or simply mad — and why the sorrowful public piety of Republican politicians after a gun massacre drives liberals into a fury.

That fury, though, needs a little more cool reasoning behind it. It’s fine to demand actions, not just prayers, in response to gun violence. But today’s liberalism often lacks a clear sense of which actions might actually address the problem – and, just as importantly, a clear appreciation of what those actions might cost.

Sometimes, it’s suggested that all we need are modest, “common-sense” changes to gun laws: Tighter background checks, new ways to trace firearms, bans on the deadliest weapons.

This idea was the basis for the Manchin-Toomey bill that failed in 2013 in the Senate. It was also, though, the basis for two major pieces of gun legislation that passed in the 1990s: The Brady Law requiring background checks for handguns and the assault weapons ban.

Both measures were promoted as common-sense reforms — in the case of the Brady Law, by none other than Ronald Reagan. But both failed to have an appreciable impact on homicides — even as other policies, like hiring more police officers, probably did. That double failure, some gun control supporters will tell you, has to do with the loopholes those two laws left open — particularly the fact that individuals selling guns aren’t required to run background checks when they sell within their home state.

But that claim’s very plausibility points to the problem: With 300 million guns in private hands in the United States, it’s very difficult to devise a non-intrusive, “common-sense” approach to regulating their exchange by individuals. Ultimately, you need more than background checks; you need many fewer guns in circulation, period. To their credit, many gun control supporters acknowledge this point, which is why there is a vogue for citing the Australian experience, where a sweeping and mandatory gun buyback followed a 1996 mass shooting.

The clearest evidence shows that Australia’s reform mostly reduced suicides — as the Brady law may have done — while the evidence on homicides is murkier. (In general, the evidence linking gun ownership rates to murder rates is relatively weak.) But a lower suicide rate would be a real public health achievement, even if it isn’t immediately relevant to the mass shooting debate.

Does that make “getting to Australia” a compelling long-term goal for liberalism? Maybe, but liberals need to count the cost. Absent a total cultural revolution in America, a massive gun collection effort would face significant resistance even once legislative and judicial battles had been won. The best analogue is Prohibition, which did have major public health benefits … but which came at a steep cost in terms of police powers, black markets and trampled liberties.

I suspect liberals imagine, at some level, that a Prohibition-style campaign against guns would mostly involve busting up gun shows and disarming Robert Dear-like trailer-park loners. But in practice it would probably look more like Michael Bloomberg’s controversial stop-and-frisk policy, with a counterterrorism component that ended up heavily targeting Muslim Americans. In areas where gun ownership is high but crime rates low, like Bernie Sanders’ Vermont, authorities would mostly turn a blind eye to illegal guns, while poor and minority communities bore the brunt of raids and fines and jail terms.

Here the relevant case study is probably not Australia, but France. The French have the kind of strict gun laws that American liberals favor, and they have fewer gun deaths than we do. But their strict gun laws are part of a larger matrix of illiberalism — a mix of Bloombergist police tactics, Trump-like disdain for religious liberty, and campus-left-style restrictions on free speech. (And then France also has a lively black market in weaponry, which determined terrorists unfortunately seem to have little difficulty acquiring.)

Despite their occasional sympathies for Gallic socialism, I don’t think American liberals necessarily want to “get to France” in this illiberal sense.

But to be persuasive, rather than just self-righteous, a case for gun control needs to explain why that isn’t where we would end up.


So what do we do? Is the plan from the left baby steps first (like the AWB was intended to be) and then move on later to tighter controls? How do we reduce the number of firearms in America? And how do we do it without giving our cops more power to exercise civil liberties abuse and racism?

When I imagine the kind of gun control that America needs to drastically reduce gun violence, I also imagine the same kind of no-knock militarized police raids at the wrong address that have become some prevalent in our war on drugs. Is it possible to prevent this?

archnemesis

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #150 on: December 06, 2015, 03:04:52 AM »
A good start would be to stop selling new weapons and ammo. You can start with banning military-grade guns and then proceed with smaller arms. Ammunition has an expiration date so you don't need to force the population to hand in their old belongings. If you want to make the process faster then the state can offer to buy back any weapon or ammo for a good price.

drew

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #151 on: December 06, 2015, 10:04:32 AM »
Every time one of these mass shootings happens I'm basically ready to turn mine in. I realize my ownership of rifles, shotguns, and handguns for my personal enjoyment is not more important than the public good. But I think that the "common sense" gun laws proposed by today's liberal leaders (expanded background checks, "assault weapon" bans, repealing weapons manufacturer civil immunity, limiting access by the mentally ill, etc.) simply doesn't do enough. This country has too many guns and I think that the Australia model (sweeping bans, government buyback) is probably the best model to reduce them.

That's a good citizen.  Now, pick up that can.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #152 on: December 06, 2015, 10:10:53 AM »
Every time one of these mass shootings happens I'm basically ready to turn mine in. I realize my ownership of rifles, shotguns, and handguns for my personal enjoyment is not more important than the public good. But I think that the "common sense" gun laws proposed by today's liberal leaders (expanded background checks, "assault weapon" bans, repealing weapons manufacturer civil immunity, limiting access by the mentally ill, etc.) simply doesn't do enough. This country has too many guns and I think that the Australia model (sweeping bans, government buyback) is probably the best model to reduce them.

That's a good citizen.  Now, pick up that can.
Sounds more like a minimum wage job for you, breh.
010

drew

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #153 on: December 06, 2015, 10:15:48 AM »
good thing I get paid $23 an hour and rising, what is it that you do again? :smug

Phoenix Dark

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #154 on: December 06, 2015, 10:42:01 AM »
:gurl
010

Human Snorenado

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #155 on: December 06, 2015, 10:58:58 AM »
good thing I get paid $23 an hour and rising, what is it that you do again? :smug

I'm betting it doesn't involve sticking guns up his ass
yar

VomKriege

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #156 on: December 06, 2015, 11:12:50 AM »
Whatever the legislation don't expect to see significant effect before long on the massive existing base.
ὕβρις

Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #157 on: December 06, 2015, 12:12:37 PM »
A good start would be to stop selling new weapons and ammo. You can start with banning military-grade guns and then proceed with smaller arms. Ammunition has an expiration date so you don't need to force the population to hand in their old belongings. If you want to make the process faster then the state can offer to buy back any weapon or ammo for a good price.

Ammunition expires but not very quickly if kept under correct conditions. We shot ammo from the 70s and 80s in the Army not infrequently.

Mods Help

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #158 on: December 06, 2015, 12:18:31 PM »
How come Drew only shows up any time a shooting happens, which these days is every week?

Rufus

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #159 on: December 06, 2015, 01:17:19 PM »
Don't htink he's been here since E3, but I could be wrong.

The Walrus

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #160 on: December 06, 2015, 02:19:13 PM »
It's really amazing to me just how strongly the pro-gun crowd has doubled down in the wake of a mass number of shootings. The "don't politicize it" meme, while seemingly completely brain-dead, has been incredibly effective.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #161 on: December 06, 2015, 02:49:20 PM »
Every time one of these mass shootings happens I'm basically ready to turn mine in. I realize my ownership of rifles, shotguns, and handguns for my personal enjoyment is not more important than the public good. But I think that the "common sense" gun laws proposed by today's liberal leaders (expanded background checks, "assault weapon" bans, repealing weapons manufacturer civil immunity, limiting access by the mentally ill, etc.) simply doesn't do enough. This country has too many guns and I think that the Australia model (sweeping bans, government buyback) is probably the best model to reduce them.

What does the public good have to do with your personal decision to have guns? You're what I assume to be a responsible gun owner, you're not the problem.
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Madrun Badrun

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #162 on: December 06, 2015, 02:52:13 PM »
Responsible gun owners are the ones who finance gun culture. 
NtGay

Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #163 on: December 06, 2015, 03:14:04 PM »
The problem as I see it is access to firearms—we need to drastically reduce that access to bring our gun violence down to normal (i.e. in parity with other OECD nations.) Most Americans don't want to give up their personal right to firearms to allow this to become reality. In my opinion, this boils down to what TheInfelicitiousDandy said earlier: Americans are okay with mass shootings because they are less important than the entertainment guns provide them personally.

That's why I say I'm ready (minus the reservations I already brought up) to give up my firearms—the entertainment they provide me is not more important than the 30,000 something dead Americans every year.

Madrun Badrun

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #164 on: December 06, 2015, 03:23:57 PM »
Also its not really about Samson being responsible.  If he has a kid, will the kid be responsible?  What if his kid is bullied and decides to shoot up the school, or more likely kill himself?  What if his kid has a friend that knows Samson has guns and steals them?  What if a stranger steals them?  No matter how responsible you are there is always a slight chance something will go wrong, and when there are so many gun owners, something will certainly go wrong. 
NtGay

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #165 on: December 06, 2015, 03:39:10 PM »
Also its not really about Samson being responsible.  If he has a kid, will the kid be responsible?  What if his kid is bullied and decides to shoot up the school, or more likely kill himself?  What if his kid has a friend that knows Samson has guns and steals them?  What if a stranger steals them?  No matter how responsible you are there is always a slight chance something will go wrong, and when there are so many gun owners, something will certainly go wrong.

Also always the chance someone could steal your guns.  :doge

Mods Help

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #166 on: December 06, 2015, 03:44:36 PM »
The idea that responsible gun owners don't contribute to overall gun culture is a confusing one.

It's like someone arguing someone who drives a car isn't adding to the problem of air pollution. Sure, we gotta do what we gotta do. But it in no way doesn't mean that we all aren't complicit in aiding the creation of a toxic environment.

Except in this case, most people need cars just to get to their jobs so they're important on a basic level. Whereas with guns, they're not essential to most people. They're just hobbies, and yet contribute to so much death and destruction.

Responsible gun ownership would be a valid argument in a world that isn't as connected as ours. If your response to the amount of gun violence currently in America is "I'm not part of the problem, I'm a responsible gun owner" I'm not sure if I can take that seriously as a measured and reasonable statement. Every thing about it seems to betray the social contract and putting your own interests ahead of everyone else.

Shoot: give me a valid argument that personal liberty to 'responsible" gun ownership outweighs the amount of unnecessary deaths caused this year alone? Phoenix Dark, Drew, I'm all ears.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 03:54:44 PM by Mods Help »

brawndolicious

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #167 on: December 06, 2015, 04:04:22 PM »
Access to semiautomatic guns, specifically handguns, are the main problem with gun violence. Whether we're talking about the regular murders committed with guns or mass shootings. They mainly rely on small concealable weapons.

I don't see a point going after AR-15 type rifles until you can get those small handguns under control. With mandatory background checks and registration. Short of a total band, I can't think of any way to totally prevent mass shooters from obtaining guns since they're preparing for that situation far enough ahead of time to legally obtain and register their weapons.

Madrun Badrun

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #168 on: December 06, 2015, 04:12:58 PM »
The point is you need to do it by steps. You can't just take away peoples guns, you need to start with a legal precedent.  Its easier to get people to agree that AR-15s are really just something people buy for fun compared to a handgun, so you ban them first. 
NtGay

Stoney Mason

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #169 on: December 06, 2015, 04:24:39 PM »
You have to limit the amount of guns. You have to regulate guns the same way you regulate other things. And you have to change the mindset of what guns mean in the society. It's not one thing. It's a mix of things. And it will take time.

In other words nothing will change in America and this exact same discussion will happen in the next shooting thread in a few weeks and as America's gun violence statistics eclipse other first world countries. Like most problems the American solution for fixing things is to leave things exactly as they are.   

Mupepe

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #170 on: December 06, 2015, 04:26:44 PM »
The idea that responsible gun owners don't contribute to overall gun culture is a confusing one.

It's like someone arguing someone who drives a car isn't adding to the problem of air pollution. Sure, we gotta do what we gotta do. But it in no way doesn't mean that we all aren't complicit in aiding the creation of a toxic environment.

Except in this case, most people need cars just to get to their jobs so they're important on a basic level. Whereas with guns, they're not essential to most people. They're just hobbies, and yet contribute to so much death and destruction.

Responsible gun ownership would be a valid argument in a world that isn't as connected as ours. If your response to the amount of gun violence currently in America is "I'm not part of the problem, I'm a responsible gun owner" I'm not sure if I can take that seriously as a measured and reasonable statement. Every thing about it seems to betray the social contract and putting your own interests ahead of everyone else.

Shoot: give me a valid argument that personal liberty to 'responsible" gun ownership outweighs the amount of unnecessary deaths caused this year alone? Phoenix Dark, Drew, I'm all ears.
I think you're arguing against a point no one ever made.  PD was basically just pointing out that if Samson and people like him in turned in their guns nothing will really change as long as the overwhelming idiots don't follow suit.

Mupepe

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #171 on: December 06, 2015, 04:27:56 PM »
I also REALLY don't understand the resistance to voluntary gun buybacks by the far right.  Who gives a shit if people want to sell their guns back to the government?  I thought these morons were all about freedom to do what they want.

brob

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #172 on: December 06, 2015, 04:41:40 PM »
how do you fund a buy-back program for 300 million guns tho? :doge

Mupepe

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #173 on: December 06, 2015, 04:55:25 PM »
how do you fund a buy-back program for 300 million guns tho? :doge
By secretly selling them to a third world country!

Shadow Mod

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #174 on: December 06, 2015, 05:17:26 PM »
I also REALLY don't understand the resistance to voluntary gun buybacks by the far right.  Who gives a shit if people want to sell their guns back to the government?  I thought these morons were all about freedom to do what they want.

The far right?

Please.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #175 on: December 06, 2015, 06:14:17 PM »
Buy back programs seem like a good idea+potentially decent form of stimulus. But I don't see how such funds could be allocated without a massive fight regardless of who controls congress.

My general view on guns is that people have a right to own them assuming they meet the requirements. In terms of gun control policy I support closing gun show loopholes, harsh takedowns on gun trafficking, and eliminating straw purchases. Expanding background checks and easier access to mental health. Mass shootings are hard to prevent. I'm more interested in lowering gun violence in cities. Chicago is a war zone in large part due to guns being trafficked underground, through Indiana and other states with lax gun laws. Likewise in Detroit, where you can literally buy various types for $50-500 off the street.
010

Great Rumbler

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #176 on: December 06, 2015, 08:14:46 PM »
Every time one of these mass shootings happens I'm basically ready to turn mine in. I realize my ownership of rifles, shotguns, and handguns for my personal enjoyment is not more important than the public good. But I think that the "common sense" gun laws proposed by today's liberal leaders (expanded background checks, "assault weapon" bans, repealing weapons manufacturer civil immunity, limiting access by the mentally ill, etc.) simply doesn't do enough. This country has too many guns and I think that the Australia model (sweeping bans, government buyback) is probably the best model to reduce them.

What does the public good have to do with your personal decision to have guns? You're what I assume to be a responsible gun owner, you're not the problem.

Responsible gun owners aren't the problem, no, but they're basically the only one who are going to fix it at this point. Anti-gun liberals yelling at pro-gun nutters is never going to solve anything, but responsible gun owners standing up and saying "We've had enough of the status quo and we're willing to make sacrifices to curb the violence" is just about the only route forward that we've got.
dog

Mupepe

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #177 on: December 06, 2015, 08:24:26 PM »
Buy back programs seem like a good idea+potentially decent form of stimulus. But I don't see how such funds could be allocated without a massive fight regardless of who controls congress.

My general view on guns is that people have a right to own them assuming they meet the requirements. In terms of gun control policy I support closing gun show loopholes, harsh takedowns on gun trafficking, and eliminating straw purchases. Expanding background checks and easier access to mental health. Mass shootings are hard to prevent. I'm more interested in lowering gun violence in cities. Chicago is a war zone in large part due to guns being trafficked underground, through Indiana and other states with lax gun laws. Likewise in Detroit, where you can literally buy various types for $50-500 off the street.
I would be perfectly fine with all of this.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #178 on: December 06, 2015, 08:33:54 PM »
I don't buy that argument. Like most things, this is moreso an issue that can be contained/reduced; and the issue to me is gun violence, not gun ownership. Given that we will never seen some voluntary mass reduction of gun ownership in a country with more guns than people, the best option is to go after the avenues that directly result in violence. Which again goes back to trafficking, straw purchases, gun show loophole, etc.

It's also worth noting violence crime was on a decline for more than a decade until relatively recently.
010

Am_I_Anonymous

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Re: It has been 4... 0 days since the last mass shooting official shooting thread
« Reply #179 on: December 06, 2015, 09:33:44 PM »
good thing I get paid $23 an hour and rising, what is it that you do again? :smug

Pay that in taxes an hour.
YMMV