Author Topic: Fighting Games Thread: GAROU 2 GAROU 2 GAROU 2 GAROU 2  (Read 428886 times)

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Tasty

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Marvel Vs. Capcom INFINITE Announced
« Reply #720 on: January 03, 2017, 01:29:24 AM »
I could see MKX being in due to the XL version, and Netherrealm whispering in Wiz's ear not to let there be a "gap year" while they get Injustice 2 ready for next year's Evo.

nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Marvel Vs. Capcom INFINITE Announced
« Reply #721 on: January 03, 2017, 04:54:40 AM »
Netherrealm is pretty good about releasing fighters in the first half of the year. I could see Injustice 2 being out before EVO, and NRS players drop the old game the second a new one comes out.

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Marvel Vs. Capcom INFINITE Announced
« Reply #722 on: January 03, 2017, 07:24:47 AM »
Do people even play Injustice anymore?  That crowd just seems to move onto whichever Netherrealm game is the newest so I'm sure MKXL will be dropped like a rock when Injustice 2 hits.  Kind of wondering how that game will work for tournaments, though, what with all the costume/armor customization and the various moves/abilities that comes from it.

I really can't see KoF happening. But I haven't been following the scene. Didn't it quickly collapse after Evo for 13 or whatever the last release was? I could maybe see Blazblue, but that would be two Arc System Works fighters which would drive Mr. Wizard insane.

KOF XIII stuck around for a year or two after its release.  XIV came out last year is still getting support from SNK (the next patch, with visual improvements, is hitting this month), but it doesn't seem to have made the impact that XIII did at one point so who knows?  It will definitely be at Evo regardless, but I assume it will be a side tournament.
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thisismyusername

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Marvel Vs. Capcom INFINITE Announced
« Reply #723 on: January 03, 2017, 09:16:48 AM »
The way I see it:

Street Fighter 5
Marvel vs Capcom 3 (especially given the PC port will be happening this year so it should be getting some new blood, if it doesn't rejuvinate this might be the last year [we've been saying this HOW many times though?])
Guilty Gear Xrd
Killer Instinct
Tekken (which might go over time. :doge )
Mortal Kombat XL/Injustice 2

Side tournaments:

King of Fighters 14
Blazblue: Chrono Fiction Extend

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Not a fighting game:

Smash Brothers Melee

Into the trash it goes:

Smash Brothers 4
Pokken
[close]

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Marvel Vs. Capcom INFINITE Announced
« Reply #724 on: January 03, 2017, 09:53:41 AM »
Marvel vs Capcom 3 (especially given the PC port will be happening this year so it should be getting some new blood, if it doesn't rejuvinate this might be the last year [we've been saying this HOW many times though?])

It is going to be last time it's on the main stage at Evo...because after this year there will be a new game.   :)

I still just wish they'd start these tournaments a day earlier and do some of the grand finals on Saturday instead of all of them on Sunday.
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thisismyusername

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Marvel Vs. Capcom INFINITE Announced
« Reply #725 on: January 03, 2017, 10:11:28 AM »
Marvel vs Capcom 3 (especially given the PC port will be happening this year so it should be getting some new blood, if it doesn't rejuvinate this might be the last year [we've been saying this HOW many times though?])

It is going to be last time it's on the main stage at Evo...because after this year there will be a new game.   :)

Ah, you're right. I completely forgot about Infinite because it's design changes have deflated all hype for me. :lol :-\ :'(

nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Marvel Vs. Capcom INFINITE Announced
« Reply #726 on: January 03, 2017, 01:36:13 PM »
For Injustice I'm pretty sure Boon has said there will be a "tournament" mode that turns off equipment stats.

Also bork, they do run some tournaments earlier. Tekken 7, Pokken, Smash 4, and KI all had Saturday finals. A couple years ago P4A was ran entirely on one day (I think Friday), including finals.

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Marvel Vs. Capcom INFINITE Announced
« Reply #727 on: January 03, 2017, 02:35:26 PM »
Ah, yeah, I should be more specific.  I mean the HUGE finals like Melee and the Capcom games.  If just one of them was a day earlier...there would be more 'breathing room.'  Alternatively, two main stages, but I guess that could cause issues for people playing in more than one tourney and they wouldn't want to lose that stream count.  :doge
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nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Marvel Vs. Capcom INFINITE Announced
« Reply #728 on: January 03, 2017, 02:38:09 PM »
wizard needs mcrib dollars bork, don't be fuckin with the numbers

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Marvel Vs. Capcom INFINITE Announced
« Reply #729 on: January 12, 2017, 02:06:37 PM »
The good: KOF XIV got its 1.10 patch on...1/10.  The patch fixes some bugs and also adds the visual update.  The game is also now PS4 Pro compatible and appears to be rendering everything at 1440P.  The updated character models look great!  You also get some new and reworked colors.

The bad: Ramon infinite discovered.

The ugly: Online is BROKEN with this update.  :lol :dizzy

The awesome: SNK has already fixed the infinite and is working on a hotfix for the netcode issues.  They hope to push out another patch ASAP.

Pictures here.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 02:16:43 PM by bork pls »
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bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Marvel Vs. Capcom INFINITE Announced
« Reply #730 on: January 14, 2017, 03:06:37 PM »
Guilty Gear Xrd Revelator 2 got announced.  Baiken is back (FINALLY) along with "the business ninja," Answer.  :lol 

Rev 2 will have new moves, new story content, balance changes, and will be out in arcades in Spring.  Loke test is in a week.  The home versions (PS3/PS4/PC) will be getting Rev 2 as paid DLC.  Arc will also sell it as a standalone game for PS4.



« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 03:10:52 PM by bork pls »
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toku

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #731 on: January 15, 2017, 06:53:59 PM »
waifu

:rejoice

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #732 on: January 17, 2017, 10:22:03 AM »
New Injustice 2 (CG) trailer:



GET READY FOR MULTIPLE SKUS  :-\


This also confirms skins to change Supergirl into Powergirl, Flash into Reverse Flash, and Hal Jordan into John Stewart.
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toku

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #733 on: January 17, 2017, 10:24:48 AM »
GOTY 2017

Tasty

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #734 on: January 17, 2017, 10:29:58 AM »
Tim Drake when

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #735 on: January 17, 2017, 11:23:17 AM »
Tim Drake when

I never played through the story mode in the first game, but it spawned a successful comic version that has been going for like five years now.  Apparently, in that comic, Damien kills Dick, so speculation is that Damien is Robin in this game and Nightwing isn't returning.  And am guessing that there's no Tim since he only appeared in one comic.  Maybe he'll be a skin though.  Watch them go nuts with skins and you wind up with every version of Robin playable...for a nice fee, of course.
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Tasty

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #736 on: January 17, 2017, 01:42:43 PM »
Sheeeeeiiit that linked wiki page even shows him in his best outfit too (Unternet aside.) Not happy about Nightwing potentially being dead tho...

Hope this comes to Switch (the first was on Wii U.) /portbeg

nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #737 on: January 17, 2017, 02:25:38 PM »
Hm, looking good. Hopefully we get to see some gameplay soon.

getting this as a gift for my lil bro. Hopefully it's as good as MKX(didn't like the first one).

Oh, is 3rd Strike in anyway available on XBone's 360 BC? Trying to find the easiest way to replay it sans emulators.
Nope, 3SOE isn't on X1 BC yet.

nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #738 on: January 17, 2017, 02:31:38 PM »
Fightcade is pretty easy to set up. Just download it from here https://www.fightcade.com/#download
And download all the roms from here as a zip  https://mega.nz/#F!EoJjwSLB!Tukuk9bZAa7YXXxKNVHorw and extract that zip in the roms folder.
Then run ggpofba.exe for the offline version and you are set

nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #739 on: January 17, 2017, 02:40:40 PM »
Fair enough :lol

In case you get slightly less lazy, here's a pack you just DL and unrar and it has Fightcade with 3S already ready to go: http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/roX5Dvox/file.html
Run Fightcade.exe for online version, ggpofba.exe for offline

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #740 on: January 17, 2017, 02:47:25 PM »
Sheeeeeiiit that linked wiki page even shows him in his best outfit too (Unternet aside.) Not happy about Nightwing potentially being dead tho...

Injustice is set in a fucked up reality where lots of characters get killed off and turn evil.  Supes is bad and Batman seems to be headed down that route, too.  I think Supergirl is supposed to be under Brainiac's control.  Guess it fits in with the Mortal Kombat-style aesthetic.

Hope this comes to Switch (the first was on Wii U.) /portbeg

Yeah, and they gave it no support and it never got the DLC that the other versions did.  Even the Vita got the GOTY version with the extra characters.
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nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #741 on: January 17, 2017, 02:49:14 PM »
I haven't read the series in a while but the Injustice comic series that came out before the first game was actually pretty good.

Tasty

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #742 on: January 17, 2017, 03:04:39 PM »
Oh I know about the Injustice-verse, probably the only "Supes goes bad" storyline in DC aside from the JLU ep "Injustice for All" (which it was likely heavily inspired by.)

Tasty

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #743 on: January 17, 2017, 03:05:41 PM »
Yeah, and they gave it no support and it never got the DLC that the other versions did.  Even the Vita got the GOTY version with the extra characters.

I'd be OK with that...

spoiler (click to show/hide)
[close]

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #744 on: January 19, 2017, 09:48:05 PM »
SF fan film in progress.  All of the work was done by one guy!



He also made the impressive 80s anime-style Star Wars Tie Fighter short.
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thisismyusername

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Marvel Vs. Capcom INFINITE Announced
« Reply #745 on: January 21, 2017, 12:24:08 AM »
Guilty Gear Xrd Revelator 2 got announced.  Baiken is back (FINALLY) along with "the business ninja," Answer.  :lol 

Answer looks good, no lie. But they need to get all the old XX cast in ASAP.

nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #746 on: January 21, 2017, 04:12:13 PM »
in mk games "go the fuck in at all times" is basically the name of the game. but you gotta know those dial a combos or you're boned. i'm sure i'm missing something but from the outside watching good players it all seems to be picking a character with the most priority and then learning all their most efficient ways to deal damage.

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #747 on: January 24, 2017, 04:37:43 PM »
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thisismyusername

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #748 on: January 24, 2017, 07:47:45 PM »
Andy masturbating intensifies?

Beezy

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #749 on: January 24, 2017, 09:39:56 PM »
Announced for EVO:

SFV
GG Rev2
Smash Wii U
Smash Melee
Injustice 2
BlazBlue Central Fiction
Tekken 7
King of Fighters XIV


The final game is player's choice only :lol
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 09:59:20 PM by Beezy »

thisismyusername

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #750 on: January 24, 2017, 10:04:07 PM »
Marvel being a player choice is weird. Understandable, but still weird.

Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #751 on: January 24, 2017, 10:07:19 PM »
It's going to be a bloodbath if Arms gets in.
ǚ

Beezy

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #752 on: January 24, 2017, 10:07:21 PM »
Marvel 3 is boring as fuck to watch.

https://www.generosity.com/explore?filter_title=EVO#/search
ARMS has the most donations so far. :neogaf

thisismyusername

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #753 on: January 24, 2017, 10:36:55 PM »
ARMS has the most donations so far. :neogaf

It's being decided by money isn't it? 44 donors only donating like $11 each is some poverty-tier level of sad. :doge

nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #754 on: January 25, 2017, 12:54:04 AM »
evo this year gonna be  :zzz :zzz :zzz :zzz :zzz

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #755 on: January 25, 2017, 07:19:22 AM »
WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS
WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS
WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS
WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS
WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS WINDJAMMERS PLS

It's gonna end up being Marvel.
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nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #756 on: January 25, 2017, 10:36:18 AM »
hopefully

how the fuck are there two anime games again though? blazblue is a game for pedophiles :maf

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #757 on: January 25, 2017, 10:46:26 AM »
blazblue is a game for pedophiles :maf

:confused :huh :crazy  :what :trigger :dunno
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nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #758 on: January 25, 2017, 10:52:03 AM »
the salt is real :maf

also have you SEEN platinum

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #759 on: January 25, 2017, 11:13:52 AM »
Have you SEEN Litchi and Nine? 
:umad
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thisismyusername

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #760 on: January 25, 2017, 11:39:44 AM »
Makoto's underboob, though.

I mean if we're going to be honest: Blazblue is straight up trash and I wish Arc would drop it and just be a Guilty Gear house. Blazblue is animu as fuuuuck though, which is why they'll continue to pump it out since it's popular in Japan IIRC.

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #761 on: January 25, 2017, 01:28:34 PM »
Makoto's underboob, though.

I mean if we're going to be honest: Blazblue is straight up trash and I wish Arc would drop it and just be a Guilty Gear house. Blazblue is animu as fuuuuck though, which is why they'll continue to pump it out since it's popular in Japan IIRC.

I like BlazBlue a whole bunch.  I just suck at it.  Par for the course for Arc fighters for me.   :lol

When the original game came out, I liked it way more than (the original arcade release of) Street Fighter IV.  That changed with the home versions, but as someone who wasn't really that big into Guilty Gear at the time, I really dug BB.  My big problem with it is that I feel like the balance is never adjusted enough, despite all the various versions that have been released, and that they need to stop re-using all the sprites and either make new ones or go full-3D like GG did.  The game is over eight years old already.

I like the character designs in BB more than GG's as well. 

I remember getting the first Blazblue, having fun playing the game but I couldn't for the life of me remember any of the character's names or designs, just vague descriptions I had of them.

There's some guy who looks like a more animu Dante with white hair and has red on his clothing, some dude in a suit and some Spirited Away looking thing. And that's all I can recall.

There's some pretty unique characters and/or movesets in the game.  It may be animu~ but it has a lot of variety.

Here's Litchi.  She can actually control her staff weapon and throw it out into the middle of the stage and use it to vault off of.  It's pretty awesome and I wish more characters with weapons could do stuff like this.  One super turns the staff into a 'doll' that beats up your enemy.  You're free to then go up to him/her and dish out your own punishment while the staff is beating the fuck out of them.  :bow this game :bow2


And then there's Iron Tager.  This big dude isn't just a Zangief clone and can 'magnetize' opponents, making them get drawn towards him for more grappling fun.


And there's way more than that.  Certainly there are some character types that are a bit overkill- I.E. when the game released, you had Carl, the little kid with a doll that can be remote-controlled.  Then they added his dad, Relius.  Same idea with some differences.  Then they added Celica, who also has a doll.  Did we really need THREE characters like this?  :lol
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 01:39:32 PM by bork pls »
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Beezy

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #762 on: January 25, 2017, 08:06:50 PM »
I didn't know people hated BlazBlue. I loved the first game and played the fuck out of it even though I sucked. Rachel before the nerf, Bang, and Hakumen were my rotation. I got one or two of the later games, but I barely touched them because I didn't have the time or patience for fighters anymore.

thisismyusername

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #763 on: January 25, 2017, 11:39:59 PM »
I wouldn't necessarily say I "hate" Blazblue. I own like 2-4 versions. But I strongly don't care for it compared to Guilty Gear. I prefer Guilty Gear's systems and characters and general butt-rock music to Blazblue's aesthetics and varied characters that make it hard to learn. I think Arc's talents are better served with UNiL and Guilty Gear.

Bebpo

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #764 on: January 26, 2017, 03:10:30 AM »
Guilty Gear has way better music & Aesthetic (Metal v Anime).  More memorable characters.  GG Xrd has 100x better instant kills.
Blazblue has, at this point, a shitload of characters and I appreciate the gameplay system that like every single character has a single button devoted to some unique gameplay system.  There's a hell of a lot of interesting playing characters.  I also feel like BB characters have more special moves than GG characters, which gives tons of options at any time.

Can't really comment too much on the story because I only recently caught up on the entire GG plot, which is fairly enjoyable with good characters.  I own every BB game and someday I will play through its storyline.

nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #765 on: January 26, 2017, 04:15:06 PM »
Donated $25 for UMVC3 at EVO. Feel like a bit of a tool but at least it all goes to charity. I'll gladly pay some cash if it means a kid gets to meet John Cena for their Make A Wish :D

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #766 on: January 30, 2017, 10:30:56 AM »

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thisismyusername

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #767 on: January 30, 2017, 10:56:04 AM »
Arms being a donation is the most baffling (beyond Marvel not being a main stage) thing for Evo. It's not even out yet and it's getting a tournament (or was attempting to). ??? ??? ??? ???

nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #768 on: January 30, 2017, 06:02:59 PM »
my dormammu dog :lol

VomKriege

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #769 on: February 01, 2017, 09:56:20 AM »
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1339762

Quote
At launch, Street Fighter V had shipped/sold digitally 1.4 million copies (well, as of the end of March): http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1216177

It has now finally reached 1.5 million copies shipped/sold digitally as of the end of December 2016: http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/finance/million.html

I know a lot of people were wondering when that might happen, so it seems we've got our answer.

 :itagaki
ὕβρις

nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #770 on: February 01, 2017, 03:02:03 PM »
http://shoryuken.com/2017/01/31/undamned-to-open-up-ud-cps2-production-to-kit-form/ :o

this is pretty crazy awesome, as an arcade guy. ud-cps2 was a great way to easily play CPS2 games on anything with HDMI but they were impossible to get. having a kit is gonna be great for people who want to play arcade fighters easily on a tv. glad i didn't end up getting that supergun now :lol

also all the prices for CPS2 motherboards have shot up to $100+ on ebay once this was announced :lol

thisismyusername

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #771 on: February 01, 2017, 06:32:24 PM »
I mean that's cool and the gang, but you still need the game boards. I'd rather they get "arcade perfect" from emulation or close to it with digital versions a la NES Classic. :doge

nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #772 on: February 01, 2017, 06:51:08 PM »
i don't know how mame runs cps2 these days but fightcade definite has some slight issues cause of the version of finalburn alpha used. but for the most part you'd be okay running an emulator on a raspberry pi and putting it in a nice box. that'd be like a cps2 version of the nes classic.

since i managed to score a bunch of cheap carts i might as well get something to run them on though :doge

thisismyusername

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #773 on: February 01, 2017, 09:11:28 PM »
http://i.imgur.com/IHiBj4i.jpg

What's the MvC one supposed to be of? Poverty?

nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #774 on: February 01, 2017, 09:52:41 PM »
thuggery, i assume. i still prefer the older version


thisismyusername

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #775 on: February 01, 2017, 11:31:33 PM »
The original will ALWAYS be the standard, AFAIC. But the SonicFox mentions in that new one are  :lol

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #776 on: February 02, 2017, 12:23:02 PM »


She looks like Christina Applegate as Kelly Bundy.  Cannot unsee.  :lol
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nachobro

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #777 on: February 02, 2017, 01:50:36 PM »

goddamnit :lol
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 01:56:30 PM by nachobro »

bork

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #778 on: February 09, 2017, 07:16:10 AM »
UMvC3 is the last main game at Evo, edging out Pokken Tournament...because of this:

https://mobile.twitter.com/KimoForce/status/829423229525647360
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thisismyusername

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Re: Fighting Games Thread ~ Business Ninjas And Baikens, Oh My!
« Reply #779 on: February 09, 2017, 09:30:45 AM »
But he's right, tho... ??? ??? ??? ???