Author Topic: US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP  (Read 6904042 times)

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Nintex

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Joe Molotov

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22861 on: August 28, 2018, 09:48:38 PM »
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1034612092253470721

We're right up there with Qatar and Brazil now. :wow
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Madrun Badrun

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22862 on: August 28, 2018, 10:05:46 PM »
And it was decided a while ago correct?  Like before 2017?

nachobro

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22863 on: August 28, 2018, 10:11:53 PM »
No, it was decided just a couple months ago. But it's North America hosting, not just the USA.

Assimilate

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22864 on: August 28, 2018, 10:17:18 PM »
But everyone knew we were going to get the World Cup this time after being fucked because of corrupt votes for Russia and Qatar last time.

kingv

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22865 on: August 28, 2018, 10:24:42 PM »
Trump probably just found out.

Oblivion

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El Babua

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22868 on: August 28, 2018, 11:12:45 PM »
The GOV race last time around was close however. Less registered dems than repubs in FLA. Lots of independents.

Gillum :rejoice

agrajag

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22869 on: August 28, 2018, 11:19:14 PM »
Glad I'm leaving this fucking state.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22870 on: August 28, 2018, 11:19:37 PM »
JFK for starters wouldn't have given the generals as much leeway as LBJ (who was less experienced on foreign policy) did.
:trigger

Madrun Badrun

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22871 on: August 28, 2018, 11:32:19 PM »
Wasn't the extent of JFKs foreign policy experience getting shipped wrecked in the Pacific, trusting the CIA to invade Cuba, and creating an illegal naval blockade over something as trivial as the end of the world? 

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22872 on: August 28, 2018, 11:33:23 PM »
JFK for starters wouldn't have given the generals as much leeway as LBJ (who was less experienced on foreign policy) did.
:trigger

This is actually something I would enjoy hearing people that have studied up on the period extrapolate a bit with.

I took a couple Vietnam war classes because it always interested me in terms of how much it influenced American politics even to this day.  One from a historian that had written a bit on the subject and the other from a political science angle. And while I don't say this a lot, or really ever, I sort of came away with a similar conclusion as Nintex. That had JFK not died that it seemed far less likely that Vietnam would of escalated the way it did. That there was a pretty decent probability based on evidence around the time that he wouldn't of went down the same path as LBJ. Not necessarily from some great strategic mind or anything(as he proved quite a bit of naivety on that front at times).

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22873 on: August 28, 2018, 11:41:49 PM »
I didn't go to college

but didn't LBJ carry out JFK's planned escalation of the war?

You bring up a good point. I mean its all playing with counter-factuals so you can sort of go in a thousand different directions if you are inclined. Which might mean my question is just an invitation for endless speculation.

For instance had LBJ died in Summer of 64 someone could probably dig up the audio of him doubting escalation in Vietnam as a worthwhile venture a couple months earlier and argue LBJ would of never escalated us the way McCormack did.

agrajag

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22874 on: August 28, 2018, 11:42:18 PM »
wars are good and easy to win

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22875 on: August 28, 2018, 11:51:05 PM »
I'm declaring war on agrajag. From now on all likes to agrajag will be considered in violation of peace treaties with yours truly.


agrajag

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22876 on: August 28, 2018, 11:52:01 PM »
Capitulate, Shostabitch

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22877 on: August 28, 2018, 11:53:07 PM »
JFK's legacy has benefited massively from dying young, much like Tupac, Green Shinobi, and Avril Lavigne.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22878 on: August 29, 2018, 12:03:49 AM »
JFK couldn't handle the replacement ambassador (Lodge) he spent specifically to overthrow Diem when said ambassador gave the go ahead and Diem wound up assassinated as part of the coup. Nor a 28 year old David Halberstam writing articles in the NYT about how American policy was failing without complaining to Arthur Sulzburger to try to get him fired. Actually, the press corp in general was his excuse for everything negative that happened, so they regularly black listed reporters, and the military was prone to "forgetting" them during trips in foreign countries. They also came down hard on figures who disagreed with policy on the record, Adlai Stevenson was banished from the White House or meeting JFK alone for this. (Not that in that case it probably wasn't a good idea since Stevenson was under the impression that the UN Ambassador was a constitutionally higher position than the President.)

JFK's objection to anything was that it'd get tied back to the administration because duh and used to harm him in his re-election campaign. It's why he refused air support for the Bay of Pigs even though it was the most essential component of the plan. It's why he backed publicly and then privately ordered nothing be done in Laos. It's why he refused to do anything about civil rights and even bitched to Wofford to get "them" to stop protesting so much. They bugged MLK not to blackmail him (though Hoover certainly did) but to find out his plans beforehand and try to block protests or get ahead of them in the press cycle.

JFK's foreign policy experience in comparison to LBJ was simply from being President at that point, he had accomplished almost nothing as a Senator or Congressman really. His brother did far more in less time (and Teddy did even more obviously) despite being hated by everyone. JFK's grand foreign policy achievement* was thinking of a quarantine instead of a blockade while trading already obsolete missiles out of Turkey.

LBJ committed to the consensus plan at the time (except for a few fringe members) that JFK was preferring to kick the can on as long as he could which was the fact that the South Vietnamese were failures and if the intent was to keep the regime propped up, it required American involvement beyond sending officers to lead South Vietnamese units that refused to fight. JFK had also stated the U.S. was not going to abandon an ally. LBJ also didn't give a shit that the U.S. would get blamed, especially after his 1964 landslide and then the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. It still took him a whole another year to start bombing everything and dropping troops into Vietnam.

Before he was killed, JFK had agreed with military projections that a thousand U.S. "advisers" could come home at the end of 1963. Only half that number did, and 1,000 new ones were scheduled to be sent to replace them and fix the problems with the Strategic Hamlets which were working in the opinion of nobody except the White House, State and Defense Departments. (In fairness to State, and specifically Dean Rusk, JFK intended to be his own Secretary of State and Chief of Staff, so he constantly ignored any chain of command and regularly mused about eliminating the entire Department.)

Amusingly, JFK attacked Eisenhower and Nixon in the 1960 campaign for losing Cuba to the Communists, not ramping up assistance to allies like South Vietnam and Laos, the non-existent "missile gap" and so on. JFK's focus was on the Cold War and the Soviets. He considered The Guns of August, the most important book of all time (after The Bible anyway) and gave copies to everyone to read and digest as if it would provide valuable insight into the administrations foreign policy.

*Other than the Alliance for Progress, which LBJ immediately undermined because he thought the best person to handle it was a racist who hated Hispanics.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22879 on: August 29, 2018, 12:13:12 AM »
Source: I played a whole bunch of JFK: Reloaded like twelve years ago, so I'm an expert on him.

Madrun Badrun

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22880 on: August 29, 2018, 12:15:10 AM »
Most of my knowledge comes from watching 13 Days 13 times.  That's knowledge in general. 

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22881 on: August 29, 2018, 12:22:24 AM »
While we're trashing JFK's legacy, for Mandark's enjoyment:


In short, to increase demand and lift the economy, the Federal Government's most useful role is not to rush into a program of excessive increases in public expenditures, but to expand the incentives and opportunities for private expenditures.

...

Corporate tax rates must also be cut to increase incentives and the availability of investment capital. The Government has already taken major steps this year to reduce business tax liability and to stimulate the modernization, replacement, and expansion of our productive plant and equipment. We have done this through the 1962 investment tax credit and through the liberalization of depreciation allowances--two essential parts of our first step in tax revision which amounted to a 10 percent reduction in corporate income taxes worth $2.5 billion. Now we need to increase consumer demand to make these measures fully effective--demand which will make more use of existing capacity and thus increase both profits and the incentive to invest. In fact, profits after taxes would be at least 15 percent higher today if we were operating at full employment.

For all these reasons, next year's tax bill should reduce personal as well as corporate income taxes, for those in the lower brackets, who are certain to spend their additional take-home pay, and for those in the middle and upper brackets, who can thereby be encouraged to undertake additional efforts and enabled to invest more capital.

...

Our true choice is not between tax reduction, on the one hand, and the avoidance of large Federal deficits on the other. It is increasingly clear that no matter what party is in power, so long as our national security needs keep rising, an economy hampered by restrictive tax rates will never produce enough revenue to balance our budget just as it will never produce enough jobs or enough profits. Surely the lesson of the last decade is that budget deficits are not caused by wild-eyed spenders but by slow economic growth and periodic recessions, and any new recession would break all deficit records.

In short, it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now. The experience of a number of European countries and Japan have borne this out. This country's own experience with tax reduction in 1954 has borne this out. And the reason is that only full employment can balance the budget, and tax reduction can pave the way to that employment. The purpose of cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus.

I repeat: our practical choice is not between a tax-cut deficit and a budgetary surplus. It is between two kinds of deficits: a chronic deficit of inertia, as the unwanted result of inadequate revenues and a restricted economy; or a temporary deficit of transition, resulting from a tax cut designed to boost the economy, increase tax revenues, and achieve--and I believe this can be done--a budget surplus. The first type of deficit is a sign of waste and weakness; the second reflects an investment in the future.

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22882 on: August 29, 2018, 12:26:49 AM »
Clearly assassinated by the Cultural Keynesians at the Fed to suppress the truth.

Madrun Badrun

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22883 on: August 29, 2018, 12:34:07 AM »
Remember when JFK said there was a missile gap.  I do.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22884 on: August 29, 2018, 12:39:28 AM »


 :american Next Speaker Jim Jordan :american

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22885 on: August 29, 2018, 12:43:38 AM »
Is This the Stupidest Book Ever Written About Socialism?

The left-wing hosts of the insanely popular Chapo Trap House podcast have no idea what they’re talking about, and their glib new book proves it.

benjipwns

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agrajag

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22887 on: August 29, 2018, 01:15:57 AM »
Is This the Stupidest Book Ever Written About Socialism?

The left-wing hosts of the insanely popular Chapo Trap House podcast have no idea what they’re talking about, and their glib new book proves it.

not enough Holodomor.jpeg illustrations

curly

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22888 on: August 29, 2018, 03:11:31 AM »
JFK's legacy has benefited massively from dying young, much like Tupac, Green Shinobi, and Avril Lavigne.

https://twitter.com/socialaskan/status/1033520107031474176

curly

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22889 on: August 29, 2018, 03:23:49 AM »
the jfk and mccain cults are made up of the exact same people

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22890 on: August 29, 2018, 10:07:09 AM »
*****

Maiden Voyage

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22891 on: August 29, 2018, 10:07:40 AM »
More like Don McGone

Nintex

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22892 on: August 29, 2018, 01:42:17 PM »
The JFK foreign policy thing was touched upon in the Kern Burns Vietnam War documentary.
LBJ didn't have a lot of interest in Vietnam at first. He simply did what his advisors told him to as he wanted to focus on welfare programs and social issues.

- At some point a diplomat send out a memo regarding a possible coup on Diem in South Vietnam and JFK had to approve it. He assumed McNamara and the others had read it and simply rubber stamped it.
- After that went south he and McNamara put in place a somewhat different decision making process.
- At that point both McNamara and Kennedy already had their doubts about 'winning'.
- Shortly after LBJ got in McNamara shared those concerns but the military pressed for more and more firepower.
- This usually meant a compromise especially later on when the protests increased. (which was ineffective both militarily and politically)
- Thinking that a series of mistakes had brought them to this point. McNamara ordered his staff to file a report that could be used for future policy decisions and to review what had gone 'wrong' with Vietnam. (these would become 'The Pentagon Papers')
- Shortly after he issued the order to create the report McNamara continued to be far less supportive of the war.
- LBJ had McNamara moved to the World Bank and replaced him with a new SecDef to see it 'through'

It is impossible to know for sure but there are sufficient grounds to believe that McNamara's and JFK's doubts about the war would've meant a slower escalation or even an early US withdrawal.
For JFK it was important that the commies didn't win but also that the people of Vietnam would have a democratic government and the citizens would support that government.
That continued to get less likely.

Overall it was a big fucking mess. Prolonged mostly by political decisions (Nixon torpedoing peace talks) and Presidents fearing they'd look 'weak' if the commies won.
Not to mention they all thought the protests against the war were somehow organized by the Kremlin.
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TakingBackSunday

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22893 on: August 29, 2018, 02:04:24 PM »
I’m not gonna fucking read that
püp

Rufus

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22894 on: August 29, 2018, 02:08:09 PM »
Rude. I think you mean "tl;dr". /fingerwag

Joe Molotov

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22895 on: August 29, 2018, 02:30:06 PM »
We'd have a big, beautiful Mars colony, and Vietnam would pay for it.
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Brehvolution

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Joe Molotov

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22897 on: August 29, 2018, 02:32:08 PM »
 :foodcourt
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agrajag

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22898 on: August 29, 2018, 02:33:58 PM »
We'd have a big, beautiful Mars colony, and Vietnam would pay for it.

Terraforming is good and easy to win

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22899 on: August 29, 2018, 02:58:17 PM »
The JFK foreign policy thing was touched upon in the Kern Burns Vietnam War documentary.
Well, there's one problem.
Quote
LBJ didn't have a lot of interest in Vietnam at first. He simply did what his advisors told him to
LBJ never did anything, including ordering pants, that others told him to.

Quote
- At some point a diplomat send out a memo regarding a possible coup on Diem in South Vietnam and JFK had to approve it. He assumed McNamara and the others had read it and simply rubber stamped it.
For JFK it was important that the commies didn't win but also that the people of Vietnam would have a democratic government and the citizens would support that government.
It was like a two year long debate about replacing Diem within the National Security Council. JFK was actually one of the strongest Diem supporters in the entire government both executive and Congress, his hand had to be forced by Diem and Nhu massacring the Buddhists, failing endlessly at basic administration and literally everyone else turning on Diem, and he still couldn't pull the trigger himself, he sent Lodge, who he knew would do it, and then refused to ever actually instruct Lodge instead pulling a whole thing where he ignored Lodge after Lodge said "if I don't hear negatively I assume that is a yes." Then ordered someone in State to not do anything to Diem, but not inform Lodge.

Quote
It is impossible to know for sure but there are sufficient grounds to believe that McNamara's and JFK's doubts about the war would've meant a slower escalation or even an early US withdrawal.
McNamara and JFK had no doubts about propping up South Vietnam, they were both entirely and completely for it. McNamara changed his mind in the later 1960's because LBJ kept overriding military plans for what he thought were political purposes but were in fact stupidity. JFK was slow walking the escalation because he wanted to claim there were no troops fighting in Vietnam while troops were fighting and dying in Vietnam, and sending more would just expose it. And he was afraid it'd let Goldwater grab the issue from him with his "either fight it to win or get out" platform. LBJ actually used the same exact lie rhetoric in 1964, only he lived to start carpet bombing Vietnam and then dropping millions of American troops into it. LBJ constantly overruled his advisers to manipulate the appearance of the war over any kind of strategic goals, he was even opposed to employing counter-guerilla strategies verses random bombing and search-and-destroys.

There was no debate about withdrawing from Vietnam, the White House did not support it, under JFK or LBJ. State did not support it, Defense did not support it, the NSC did not support it, the CIA generally did not support it.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22900 on: August 29, 2018, 02:59:02 PM »
Meanwhile, Johm McCain was finishing at the bottom of his class, not properly qualifying to fly planes, flying planes into the flight deck while taking off, flying planes into power lines, etc. :american

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22901 on: August 29, 2018, 03:00:18 PM »
Meanwhile, Johm McCain was finishing at the bottom of his class, not properly qualifying to fly planes, flying planes into the flight deck while taking off, flying planes into power lines, etc. :american
I already covered all that here:




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If there is a Hell "The Hanoi song bird" is there now.

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Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22902 on: August 29, 2018, 03:02:46 PM »
quoting yourself posting flat earth youtube accounts, sweet

Joe Molotov

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22903 on: August 29, 2018, 03:05:01 PM »
that feel when you have the Vietnam War riding up on your nuts like a bad pair of pants
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22904 on: August 29, 2018, 03:07:58 PM »
quoting yourself posting flat earth youtube accounts, sweet
rather listen to a flat earther, than a flat out coward  :lol
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seagrams hotsauce

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22905 on: August 29, 2018, 03:27:06 PM »
fillers new "i'm not mad" smileys are a hilarious gimmick

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22906 on: August 29, 2018, 03:46:15 PM »
 :lol
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TakingBackSunday

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22907 on: August 29, 2018, 04:24:11 PM »
quoting yourself posting flat earth youtube accounts, sweet
rather listen to a flat earther, than a flat out coward  :lol

think about that statement for a second
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I'm a Puppy!

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22908 on: August 29, 2018, 04:29:48 PM »
What are y'all talking about now? I'm still distracted by that cleavage.
que

Nintex

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Joe Molotov

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22910 on: August 29, 2018, 06:11:24 PM »
Let me Bing that for you
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22911 on: August 29, 2018, 06:13:44 PM »
it's unpatriotic to use google. let freedom bing!!!  :usacry :american
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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22912 on: August 29, 2018, 06:43:23 PM »


 :letsfukk

Maiden Voyage

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22913 on: August 29, 2018, 07:58:10 PM »
Holy shit... Wu vs Boston Globe is a trending Twitter Moment.

https://twitter.com/i/moments/1034815388532527104

Hilarious that she didn't get a staff member to contact the Globe on her behalf.

EightBitNate

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22914 on: August 29, 2018, 10:00:39 PM »
Holy shit... Wu vs Boston Globe is a trending Twitter Moment.

https://twitter.com/i/moments/1034815388532527104

Hilarious that she didn't get a staff member to contact the Globe on her behalf.

I hate that I'm saying this but that was kind of fucked on their part.

Maiden Voyage

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22915 on: August 29, 2018, 10:05:14 PM »
No doubt, but why have a tantrum on Twitter over it? Get a staff member to complain and move on.

EightBitNate

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22916 on: August 29, 2018, 10:16:59 PM »
No doubt, but why have a tantrum on Twitter over it? Get a staff member to complain and move on.

I'm not following that race closely at all but I imagine she isn't being taken seriously by anyone. Playing the victim card has worked for her in the past. It's honestly not a bad move to drum up some support for herself.

Boredfrom

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22917 on: August 29, 2018, 10:20:58 PM »
She shouldnt win the primary, to be honest.

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22918 on: August 30, 2018, 12:50:34 AM »
You sure?
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Brehvolution

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran
« Reply #22919 on: August 30, 2018, 03:34:17 PM »
©ZH