Author Topic: US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP  (Read 6931342 times)

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Maiden Voyage

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12420 on: January 09, 2018, 07:46:15 AM »
Maybe Hilldawg needs to run again in 2020 but this time letting people know she won Gallup's most admired woman poll. Surely that will turn around the court of public opinion.

kingv

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12421 on: January 09, 2018, 07:55:24 AM »
I’ve just been patiently waiting for the next round of indictments so I can pull up all of your comments about how the Mueller probe was almost over from mid December.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12422 on: January 09, 2018, 08:11:42 AM »
oh that reminded me i wanted to look at the dawn of the midterm year polls last cycle for some hehs...from PPP

mid-December 2013:
spoiler (click to show/hide)
GOP: Christie (19%), Cruz (14%), Huckabee (13%), Rand (11%), Jeb! (10%), Ryan (10%), Rubio (7%), Walker (4%), Jindal (3%)
DEM: Clinton (66%), Biden (10%), Warren (6%), Booker/Cuomo/Dean/Kerry/O'Malley (2%), Schweizer (1%) ... without Hillary, Biden (35%), Warren (13%), Kerry (13%), Booker/Cuomo (7%), Dean/O'Malley (4%), Schweitzer (1%)

head to heads:
Clinton 48% v Jeb! 43%
Christie 45% v Clinton 42%
Clinton 49% v Cruz 41%
Clinton 48% v Huckabee 42%
Clinton 48% v Paul 43%
Christie 49% v Biden 35%
Christie 51% v Dean 29%
Christie 46% v Kerry 35%
Christie 49% v Warren 33%
[close]

end-January 2014:
spoiler (click to show/hide)
GOP: Huckabee (16%), Jeb! (14%), Christie (13%), Paul (11%), Cruz/Rubio/Ryan (8%), Walker (6%), Jindal (5%)
DEM: Clinton (67%), Biden (7%), Warren (7%), Booker/Cuomo (2%) Gillibrand/O'Malley/Warner/Schweizer (1%) ... without Hillary, Biden (32%), Warren (16%), Booker/Cuomo (7%), Gillibrand (3%), Warner/Schweitzer (2%), O'Malley (1%)

head to heads:
Clinton 45% v Jeb! 43%
Clinton 45% v Christie 43%
Clinton 47% v Cruz 41%
Clinton 46% v Huckabee 43%
Clinton 46% v Paul 43%
Clinton 46 v Ryan 44%
Christie 46% v Biden 35%
Christie 43% v Warren 34%
[close]

None of the pollsters include Sanders until mid-2014, Trump until spring 2015.

agrajag

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12423 on: January 09, 2018, 11:25:48 AM »
White male reporters against Hilldawg, a strong ebony woman.

Great Rumbler

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12424 on: January 09, 2018, 01:15:51 PM »
A conversation overhead at Wal-Mart yesterday:

Man: You never heard this kind of complaining and nonsense from Republicans back when Obama was President!

Woman: Yeah, but that's because Obama passed a law where if any of them said anything bad about him they'd get sent to jail. Trump has that power, too, he just chooses not to use it!
dog

Brehvolution

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12425 on: January 09, 2018, 01:19:13 PM »
:smh
©ZH

agrajag

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12426 on: January 09, 2018, 01:26:38 PM »
A conversation overhead at Wal-Mart yesterday:

Man: You never heard this kind of complaining and nonsense from Republicans back when Obama was President!

Woman: Yeah, but that's because Obama passed a law where if any of them said anything bad about him they'd get sent to jail. Trump has that power, too, he just chooses not to use it!

so glad we have a stable genius at the helm now after Obummer's reign of terror



kingv

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12429 on: January 09, 2018, 02:10:24 PM »
But some of our lost esteemed posters were telling me that the FBI had nothing, and that the Flynn plea deal was a sign of this?!

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12430 on: January 09, 2018, 02:14:00 PM »
It's best to disregard the Bore "skeptics." I mean, they are willing to disregard that the POTUS penned a fake statement about Donald Jr's meeting with Veselnitskaya. If you listen to Benji he obstructed justice merely for shits and giggles   :doge

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12431 on: January 09, 2018, 02:17:25 PM »
It's best to disregard the Bore "skeptics." I mean, they are willing to disregard that the POTUS penned a fake statement about Donald Jr's meeting with Veselnitskaya. If you listen to Benji he obstructed justice merely for shits and giggles   :doge

Benji's is good fun. :itagaki

Etolilet and Jay Dubya suck a dick. :miyamoto :paul :bolo :preach :heyman

And that one MAGA fan who was the Playstation MVP from Gaf and said he would "participate meaningfully". EAT A DICK.  :neogaf :heh :sabu :miyamoto

Tasty

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12432 on: January 09, 2018, 02:31:26 PM »
Seth Rich was behind it all along :ohhh

Tasty

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12433 on: January 09, 2018, 02:37:05 PM »
Seth Rich... Trump just gave a huge tax cut for the 1%...

Seth Rich was a double-agent for the Kochs and Murdoch this whole time!!

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12434 on: January 09, 2018, 02:44:27 PM »
I got about half way through the document on my lunch break and beyond just being a surprisingly fascinating read into the world of corporate and political research, I think my skepticism of the Steele document(keeping in mind it is still apparently fairly raw intelligence) is dropping notably. Of course I reserve the right to change that opinion as I get through it, or on further reflection. I certainly get why GPS was confident in calling for the testimony to be released publicly....Of course this is Simpson’s version of events and he has his own self-interests, even if under oath, so I try to keep that in mind

I will say, reading about this more, from this document and stoking my curiosity further, highlighted my own weakness in falling for Republican spin, even when I like to fancy myself as being aware of it. I have to admit, my impression of GPS was of a fast and loose gun for hire political opposition research company that dances around in the mud of politics. Which seems to be the broad image the right-wing has tried to foster of GPS, and I guess it must of snuck in on me. Turns out it is mostly a collection of former investigative journalists at places like the WSJ that primarily deal with corporate research. With a seemingly very well structured way of doing it, who’s success clearly seems to be built on reputation. Only occasionally doing client research during political campaigns. And the first 150 pages definitely make me think Bannon wasn’t blowing smoke telling Wolff Mueller will focus heavily on the financial end. Seems to be the common theme all these investigations catch wind of. Lots of dirty money, questionable criminal relationships, and paper trails that heavily suggest foul play.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 02:49:13 PM by Nola »

etiolate

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12435 on: January 09, 2018, 03:14:55 PM »
You are all like Nintendo fanboys trying to convince yourselves the next hardware is really going to be on par with Sony/MS based on hyper-inflated rumor.




Figure this out: The Fusion Dossier was given around. Only Buzzfeed wrote about it. The other news outlets did not see it as verifiable. Buzzfeed got some blowback for posting paid-for gossip. We've now run around the tracka  few times trying to prove an allegation we never have clearly stated. It's Russsian Collusion, which tries to be the claim that Russia impacted the election in favor of Trump in agreement with Trump. We're nowhere near that, so we've walked all the way back to the pee tape story. Oddly, the NY Times which found the Dossier unprintable, allowed the Fusion GPS guy to write a statement in their paper. Now we have urging to see the dossier. 

The question being will we stop to ask if any of it is real and meaningful? Or is this more IT'S H A P P E N I N G for the political fanboys?

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12436 on: January 09, 2018, 03:20:10 PM »
Etoilet shut the fuck up and take your L.

kingv

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12437 on: January 09, 2018, 03:30:53 PM »
And the switch has better games than Xbox or PS4!!!1122

Joe Molotov

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12438 on: January 09, 2018, 03:36:31 PM »
Unlike the Seth Rich story, that is super real.
©@©™

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12439 on: January 09, 2018, 03:45:35 PM »
Still no CHIP reauthorization.

Next time Dems are in power, they really ought to make CHIP permanent rather than dependent on Congressional renewal. In general they'll need to do more to make social programs harder to sabotage. Which ironically could push them to the left, considering the mandate and the markets were easier for the GOP to target than Medicaid.

agrajag

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12440 on: January 09, 2018, 03:50:04 PM »
Etoilet, focus on your Seth Rich investigation please

TakingBackSunday

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12441 on: January 09, 2018, 04:06:44 PM »
lol get fucked bannon
püp

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12442 on: January 09, 2018, 04:26:43 PM »
Bannon thoguht he had his own constituency and base of power separate from Trump.

Oh honey.

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12443 on: January 09, 2018, 04:43:44 PM »
You are all like Nintendo fanboys trying to convince yourselves the next hardware is really going to be on par with Sony/MS based on hyper-inflated rumor.




Figure this out: The Fusion Dossier was given around. Only Buzzfeed wrote about it. The other news outlets did not see it as verifiable. Buzzfeed got some blowback for posting paid-for gossip. We've now run around the tracka  few times trying to prove an allegation we never have clearly stated. It's Russsian Collusion, which tries to be the claim that Russia impacted the election in favor of Trump in agreement with Trump. We're nowhere near that, so we've walked all the way back to the pee tape story. Oddly, the NY Times which found the Dossier unprintable, allowed the Fusion GPS guy to write a statement in their paper. Now we have urging to see the dossier. 

The question being will we stop to ask if any of it is real and meaningful? Or is this more IT'S H A P P E N I N G for the political fanboys?

You might want to actually read the testimony before another attempt to handwave away the narratives that don’t fit your warped Seth Rich timeline.

As the testimony points out, a number of the intelligence Steele received has been corroborated. Meetings that took place, dates that line up, and an additional source that the FBI informed Steele about that seems to line up Papadoupolous spouting off to the Australians.

Beyond that, the timeline of events itself raises questions. This was not some rag tag group that was passing around gossip. Steele, according to this testimony, sought out the FBI on his own accord due to his belief, backed by a career in intelligence dealing with the Russians, that what he was uncovering was credible enough and concerning enough to go to the FBI under the pretense of suspicion of ongoing criminal activities. There is no logical rationale for subjecting yourself to that or the potential scrutiny that could follow, if you are just selling gossip you don’t find credible. And it should also be noted that one person related to this intelligence already ended up dead. As Simpson rightly points out, the sort of human intelligence they gathered is not the sort of thing that can regularly be used by a journalistic outfit that is trying to follow typical norms of reporting, because it’s not the sort of stuff you can verify independently. A point he made from an early question about what type of research they do and their process.

 You can’t go to Russia and file a FOIA request to see if someone from the Trump campaign actually met with person X at Y place. But when ongoing investigations on the American end corroborate certain things, now you have more credible evidence. There is a difference between unsubstantiated and not being credible. You confuse the two out of sheer wishful thinking for narratives that have fallen apart on you while you continue to amusingly assert some intellectual higher ground everyone else has supposedly fallen beneath of. It is amusing, and at least it keeps this thread enetertaining, but it’s myopic


Joe Molotov

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Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12445 on: January 09, 2018, 04:55:02 PM »
 On second thought maybe I’ll stick to it still being Pap.

etiolate

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12446 on: January 09, 2018, 04:55:42 PM »
Bannon made Breitbart into Trump News and then gets ditched by both mostly because nobody likes him.


Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12447 on: January 09, 2018, 05:02:20 PM »

Nah, it’s simply because he lost the trust of the cult of personality and that threatened the business and the Mercer’s money clearly sees more value in taking Trump’s side over defending Bannon.


Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12448 on: January 09, 2018, 05:13:05 PM »
WH is revoking protected status for an estimated 200,000 El Salvadorans in the country.

Since this status goes back to the 2001 earthquake, lots of these people have been here well over a decade. Cool. Great.

Skullfuckers Anonymous

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Steve Contra

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12450 on: January 09, 2018, 05:36:17 PM »
Kind of crazy to think that a multi-generational new york real estate development company might be involved in some shady shit, but here we are.
vin

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12451 on: January 09, 2018, 05:50:45 PM »
WH is revoking protected status for an estimated 200,000 El Salvadorans in the country.

Since this status goes back to the 2001 earthquake, lots of these people have been here well over a decade. Cool. Great.
Are you suggesting that they faked the earthquake as part of getting into the country for 9/11?

Steve Contra

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12452 on: January 09, 2018, 05:59:27 PM »
Also the like button disappeared for me a while back. Like this post to demand the mods fix it.
vin

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12453 on: January 09, 2018, 06:14:36 PM »
AFAIK the stuff that has come out wasn't in the dossier, and the stuff in the dossier hasn't been confirmed.

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12454 on: January 09, 2018, 06:43:08 PM »
Who is this “they” fella everyone keeps talking about?

The only person I have seen assert a definitive narrative around here has ironically been etoilet. (Most)Everyone else seems open to a wide range of explanations and possibilities of what this investigation will turn up.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 06:47:15 PM by Nola »

I'm a Puppy!

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12455 on: January 09, 2018, 06:50:05 PM »
they = Seth.....RICH

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Seth Rich
[close]
que

Steve Contra

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12456 on: January 09, 2018, 06:51:43 PM »
they = Seth.....RICH

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Seth Rich
[close]
Who?

spoiler (click to show/hide)
<_<
spoiler (click to show/hide)
>_>
[close]
[close]
vin

Mupepe

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12457 on: January 09, 2018, 07:18:49 PM »
WH is revoking protected status for an estimated 200,000 El Salvadorans in the country.

Since this status goes back to the 2001 earthquake, lots of these people have been here well over a decade. Cool. Great.
Most of my wife’s family that’s legal  :(

etiolate

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12458 on: January 09, 2018, 07:33:29 PM »
By far the greatest thing to come out of the Oprah Presidency hooplah:

https://inhabitat.com/ecouterre/oprah-draws-criticism-for-endorsing-face-cream-made-from-foreskins/

I kind of want to buy this just so whenever anyone says I look young for my age, I can respond with "the secret is baby dicks."

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12459 on: January 09, 2018, 07:43:57 PM »
Not to discount that people can't be concerned about more than one thing at a time but I just lament the feeding frenzy mentality over something of which nobody who seems to follow every tweet storm or minor detail of dudes meeting dudes even takes the time to hypothetically allege the crime that is supposed to have occurred. Even the speculation is garbage about how there could be further speculation in the future. We can't even get the collusion allegation hooked up!

It feels like the endless desire for THE ONE RING TO END TRUMP has been going on for two and a half years now. Then we move onto the next one.

Meanwhile, how many active criminal conspiracies are ongoing involving the Trump Administration? Either that they inherited or started. Indictments of former Trump lackeys for perjury are so far afield of affecting any of that.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
And what about the criminal conspiracy THAT IS THE STATE ITSELF HUH?!?
[close]

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12460 on: January 09, 2018, 07:46:40 PM »
Not to discount that people can't be concerned about more than one thing at a time but I just lament the feeding frenzy mentality over something of which nobody who seems to follow every tweet storm or minor detail of dudes meeting dudes even takes the time to hypothetically allege the crime that is supposed to have occurred. Even the speculation is garbage about how there could be further speculation in the future. We can't even get the collusion allegation hooked up!

It feels like the endless desire for THE ONE RING TO END TRUMP has been going on for two and a half years now. Then we move onto the next one.

Meanwhile, how many active criminal conspiracies are ongoing involving the Trump Administration? Either that they inherited or started. Indictments of former Trump lackeys for perjury are so far afield of affecting any of that.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
And what about the criminal conspiracy THAT IS THE STATE ITSELF HUH?!?
[close]
:putin

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12461 on: January 09, 2018, 08:04:14 PM »
even takes the time to hypothetically allege the crime that is supposed to have occurred

oh?

zomgee

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12462 on: January 09, 2018, 08:10:31 PM »
Not to discount that people can't be concerned about more than one thing at a time but I just lament the feeding frenzy mentality over something of which nobody who seems to follow every tweet storm or minor detail of dudes meeting dudes even takes the time to hypothetically allege the crime that is supposed to have occurred. Even the speculation is garbage about how there could be further speculation in the future. We can't even get the collusion allegation hooked up!

It feels like the endless desire for THE ONE RING TO END TRUMP has been going on for two and a half years now. Then we move onto the next one.

Meanwhile, how many active criminal conspiracies are ongoing involving the Trump Administration? Either that they inherited or started. Indictments of former Trump lackeys for perjury are so far afield of affecting any of that.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
And what about the criminal conspiracy THAT IS THE STATE ITSELF HUH?!?
[close]

I wonder sometimes if this is just the mirror image of the desperation that the talking points right used while Obama was president. Every single article listed on /r/politics is some sort of impeachable offense, mental issue which demands removal from office, illegal use of power, financial impropriety which will surely get the entire family arrested next week, and so on.
rub

zomgee

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12463 on: January 09, 2018, 08:10:57 PM »
#IamSethRich
rub

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12464 on: January 09, 2018, 08:15:06 PM »
It's not to my knowledge de facto illegal for Americans to communicate with people from other countries. Which is usually what I am told is the crime that President of the United States Donald J. Trump and nasty woman Crooked Hillary committed.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12465 on: January 09, 2018, 08:30:51 PM »
I wonder sometimes if this is just the mirror image of the desperation that the talking points right used while Obama was president. Every single article listed on /r/politics is some sort of impeachable offense, mental issue which demands removal from office, illegal use of power, financial impropriety which will surely get the entire family arrested next week, and so on.
For some it's a kind of defense mechanism that by denying the legitimacy that somehow makes everything better. I knew people who always acted like the worst thing about W. was "selected, not elected" rather than you know, all the stuff he did in office.

Hell, I'd still see on GAF from time to time people who couldn't take mentions of him without "correcting the record" about how he stole the office and was never actually elected.

Rather than actually asking the important questions like who authorized a handful of WHITE MEN 230 years ago to decide we even have something called a President who can enforce and enact laws over us without our prior approval?!? Some due process I say!

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12466 on: January 09, 2018, 08:32:06 PM »
It's not to my knowledge de facto illegal for Americans to communicate with people from other countries. Which is usually what I am told is the crime that President of the United States Donald J. Trump and nasty woman Crooked Hillary committed.

I think the part where that communication may have involved the acquisition or coordinated dissemination of knowingly criminally acquired private information, perhaps with an implied quid-pro-quo, is a piece of context that you might of left out.

My background is the ever useful field of economics, not criminal law, so I'll leave it up to actual legal experts to fill that in. But I will say, if following that and other incidents, a person, say the president, knowingly knew of such arrangements or perceived criminal exposure to people he cared about, did something like run around trying to obstruct an investigation looking into those crimes, even going so far as to admit the motive on national TV, there is a good chance that president is setting the grounds for credible accusations of abuse of power and obstruction of justice for the political process that was designed by the founders to address that.


And I think all of that, plus the numerous other suspicious behavior and events, warrants a thorough investigation of the Trump campaign. And if there are some hyper-partisans, who's fever dreams get the best of them, I guess I don't really care all that much. And if people get too obsessed with he followers of the investigation that it influences their thoughts on the actual investigation, I kind of see that as a personal failing on that individual's part, no offense.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12467 on: January 09, 2018, 08:45:23 PM »
I think the part where that communication may have involved the acquisition or coordinated dissemination of knowingly criminally acquired private information, perhaps with an implied quid-pro-quo, is a piece of context that you might of left out.
Are you talking about John Podesta's e-mails?

Steve Contra

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12468 on: January 09, 2018, 08:47:27 PM »
It's not to my knowledge de facto illegal for Americans to communicate with people from other countries. Which is usually what I am told is the crime that President of the United States Donald J. Trump and nasty woman Crooked Hillary committed.
You seem genuinely confused as to the nefarious possibilities of what could be uinvolved in influencing an election. Have you ever heard of the CIA? If not I suggest a quick look.
vin

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12469 on: January 09, 2018, 08:56:27 PM »
I think the part where that communication may have involved the acquisition or coordinated dissemination of knowingly criminally acquired private information, perhaps with an implied quid-pro-quo, is a piece of context that you might of left out.
Are you talking about John Podesta's e-mails?

Sure, amongst the other things Seth Rich Ocean's 11'd out of the country before the Clinton's gunned him down in cold blood before he could escape to the patriotic Russians that just wanted to help Trump MAGA by exposing Hillary's criminal behavior that cost Bernie Sanders the primary.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12470 on: January 09, 2018, 08:58:55 PM »
It's not to my knowledge de facto illegal for Americans to communicate with people from other countries. Which is usually what I am told is the crime that President of the United States Donald J. Trump and nasty woman Crooked Hillary committed.
You seem genuinely confused as to the nefarious possibilities of what could be uinvolved in influencing an election. Have you ever heard of the CIA? If not I suggest a quick look.
While I believe that Obama and his administration played a role in the outcome of the 2016 election, I'm skeptical as to the extent to which he involved the CIA.

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12471 on: January 09, 2018, 09:12:47 PM »
It's not to my knowledge de facto illegal for Americans to communicate with people from other countries.

oh

kingv

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benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12473 on: January 09, 2018, 10:36:30 PM »
Here’s your quo:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-house-official-floated-withdrawing-us-forces-to-please-putin?ref=home



Not really... but interesting.
"Well, we're going to hit the reset button and start fresh because clearly the Obama administration believes that there are a number of important areas to discuss with the Russians. We're just at the beginning of this discussion, but I'm looking forward to it. "

"The basis for my discussion began with this simple premise, that Russia and the United States must establish a new relationship beyond that of the old cold war mentality. The cold war said loud and clear that we're opponents and that we bring the peace through the ability for each of us to destroy each other. Friends don't destroy each other."

"Russia is important to America. Our economies are connected. We share values, interests and friendship. We share security interests and heavy security responsibilities."

"...to further reduce tensions, I am directing that all United States strategic bombers immediately standdown from their alert posture."

"I believe that 1984 finds the United States in the strongest position in years to establish a constructive and realistic working relationship with the Soviet Union. We've come a long way since the decade of the 70's, years when the United States seemed filled with self-doubt and neglected its defenses while the Soviet Union increased its military might and sought to expand its influence by armed forces and threat. "

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12474 on: January 09, 2018, 10:43:16 PM »
The publicly available information, with the gaps filled in by Trump family statements taken at face value, show no criminal activity.

Touché.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12475 on: January 09, 2018, 11:09:28 PM »
Since it was specifically mentioned on the last page, maybe I can do a little to clear up my positioning here and where my skepticism and nonchalance lies on a variety of things. I mentioned this before but I find it really strange that it's somehow beyond the pale for a presidential candidate to discuss foreign policy changes privately, when he or she is spending a lot of their time doing it publicly. Just to take Obama, he not only was conducting foreign policy as both President and Senator (except that he didn't show up amirite Sean Hannity) but advocating for extensive changes in foreign policy from the Bush Administration in debates on and on the stump and so on.

There's an inherent quid-pro-quo in establishing better relations, or getting out of conflicts like Vietnam or Iraq. And it's a two-way street, both for not only American candidates, but foreign ones too. Not to mention both parties in our system.

To step back in hopes of clearing up my view some, lots of people accuse Nixon of having committed treason in 1968 by messing with the Paris Peace Talks. Aside from any problems with the factual record (like Kissinger's role and the fact that he was expected to join a Humphrey administration as well) there's the problem of LBJ being able to direct foreign policy to elect Humphrey and this somehow being fine. All while the candidates are making public statements, earlier in that same election you had the revolt against LBJ by McCarthy and RFK. In 1964, LBJ covered up the Gulf of Tonkin while working with the media to portray Goldwater as eager to get involved in Vietnam and drop nuclear weapons on it.

I know I'm losing the plot here, but that's actually the point. This whole assumption about foreign policy and foreign meddling in elections is kinda essential to the whole shebang. Especially considering the role of the Presidency.

That's the grander argument being made and it makes no sense to be applied solely to Donald Trump's campaign nor solely to Russia in just this election. Especially considering how that nation dominated our politics for 70 years.

If we're talking about John Podesta's e-mails, my issue is that the timelines don't add up and the whole plot makes no sense.

I guess I need to reiterate that I don't claim any innocence on Trump's part merely that the current propositions make no sense and/or only are relevant if you start constructing massive conspiracy theories on top like in the Uranium One blockbuster scandal, nor would I care to deny theories about his companies having business deals that wind up involved with criminals Russian or otherwise, or as Steve Contra better put it above:
Quote
Kind of crazy to think that a multi-generational new york real estate development company might be involved in some shady shit, but here we are.

There's also a firm layer of skepticism in Donald Trump himself here, I've seen the guy tune out things happening in front of him and construct his own reality to replace it. His relationship with someone like Omarosa is a perfect example of how others can take advantage of him for their own ends. Hell, Bannon is. And those are losers operating for personal gain. I don't think any real serious masterminds are going to look at Trump, his sons, his organization and say "yep, these are totally people we should collude with on regarding the largest media spectacle of its age" to where I should assume continued investigations are going to find anything new and in increasingly amazing fashion.

That's part of why I don't think an obstruction of justice charge would ever be brought by someone who wants to be good at their job like Mueller. It seems entirely plausible that Trump is completely clueless and would back into a charge like that. I mean, the guy can't even put out the Fake News Awards on time and it's making us all get testy and snipe at each other instead of our normal lovemaking!

Regarding any SECRET massive information hiding in the bowels of the FBI that will blow this whole thing open any day now when the rest of us are finally made privy to it after three years, I find that hard to wait in anticipation for when we're already getting the personal text messages of the staff. Not to mention that Trump hasn't tweeted about it.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 11:15:46 PM by benjipwns »

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12476 on: January 09, 2018, 11:16:08 PM »
Ignorance is not an excuse. If the guy obstructed justice, wittingly or unwittingly he needs to face the consequences.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12477 on: January 09, 2018, 11:23:01 PM »
The problem in the Mueller case is that there may be no crime. That's literally part of his commission, to determine if any crimes were committed, it's totally up to him.

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12478 on: January 09, 2018, 11:26:00 PM »
Here’s your quo:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-house-official-floated-withdrawing-us-forces-to-please-putin?ref=home



Not really... but interesting.
"Well, we're going to hit the reset button and start fresh because clearly the Obama administration believes that there are a number of important areas to discuss with the Russians. We're just at the beginning of this discussion, but I'm looking forward to it. "

"The basis for my discussion began with this simple premise, that Russia and the United States must establish a new relationship beyond that of the old cold war mentality. The cold war said loud and clear that we're opponents and that we bring the peace through the ability for each of us to destroy each other. Friends don't destroy each other."

"Russia is important to America. Our economies are connected. We share values, interests and friendship. We share security interests and heavy security responsibilities."

"...to further reduce tensions, I am directing that all United States strategic bombers immediately standdown from their alert posture."

"I believe that 1984 finds the United States in the strongest position in years to establish a constructive and realistic working relationship with the Soviet Union. We've come a long way since the decade of the 70's, years when the United States seemed filled with self-doubt and neglected its defenses while the Soviet Union increased its military might and sought to expand its influence by armed forces and threat. "

I do think this article is a good example of what benji is talking about above. Like the headline says one thing, but the article doesn’t really warrant the headline. I do think it’s newsworthy, but doesn’t rate the front page hyperbolic headline they gave it.

That said, I think you both are nuts for giving trump the benefit of the doubt and are willfully ignoring or downplaying some pieces of information that at least suggest that a crime may have been committed, (apart from the obstruction of justice which is pretty much proven with publically available evidence.

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12479 on: January 09, 2018, 11:30:08 PM »
The problem in the Mueller case is that there may be no crime. That's literally part of his commission, to determine if any crimes were committed, it's totally up to him.

And I am ok with waiting and seeing where his findings lead. You and Shostakovitch are so hell-bent on appearing impartial and reasonable you end up looking the opposite.