US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP

[benjipwns]

But I don't disagree with you on the former, I'm just responding to posts and such that act like every little piece of news if you read it with a suggestion and speculation that heads in one direction is the start of a tsunami that washes away Trump and the Republican Party forever when basically all of it has been totally unrelated to the 2016 election. The supposed timeframe of this grand conspiracy.

I guess I'll just refrain from commenting at all on posts here about the case until Mueller issues his final report. (This is the one thing he's actually legally required to do, I am not, in this instance, being snarky about it being all that he'll do.)

[Mandark]

posts and such that act like every little piece of news if you read it with a suggestion and speculation that heads in one direction

those are your posts, my man

[agrajag]

No don't stop sharing your views. I am far from an arbitrer of what's acceptable to post or not. I just think you try to paint some of us as ridiculous when we are asking fair questions. Like you say there's no crime in campaigns communicating with other countries. And I say sure, but communicating an extraordinary amount with a hostile nation that was at the time actively trying to throw the election in your favor is going to raise my eyebrow.

And if I were to guess, my personal analysis is that Trumpnis a profoundly ignorant person. By my estimation, Russia views him as a useful idiot. I don't believe anyone is arguing that he personally made quid pro quo deals with Russian operatives. But it seems like everyone around him, in his campaign, had shady dealings with people tied to Kremlin. And if he had any kind of knowledge of it, he is complicit. And his ignorance, lack of caring and stupidity is not a shield.

[benjipwns]

but communicating an extraordinary amount with a hostile nation that was at the time actively trying to throw the election in your favor is going to raise my eyebrow

This is the exact disconnect I'm talking about, I don't assume any of these premises are necessarily facts. And they have to be established as such or else we're never going to get rid of Trump except through an election, a term-limit or death.

I don't know the amount of communcation the Trump campaign had with Russian officials and how it compares to other campaigns and their contacts with foreign officials. Nor the Trump campaigns communication with other foreign officials.

I don't know that Russia should inherently be presumed to be a hostile or enemy nation let alone treated as one presumptively. Nor that they desired the election of Trump any more than they would have Obama in 2012. I mean this from a non-strategic stand-point where you assume all nations are hostile actors. Especially Canada. Definitely Canada.

And if their best shot at throwing an American Presidential election was Facebook posts, twitter bots and releasing ten month old John Podesta e-mails that had nothing in them I start to question their operational competence as well considering all the actual options that are on the table. (They almost got her with the Pneumonia but she fought that off...or more likely, they already had the double ready to go expecting it. Since it's the kind of thing they would do to their political foes.)

No don't stop sharing your views

Nah, it's worth less than standard masturbatory garbage that doesn't add anything to the discussion and just perpetuates the nonsense instead.

[kingv]

I also think it’s highly likely that Trump was just eating fucking cheeseburgers and yelling at Hope Hicks for forgetting the machine, acting like cable news was interactive, and generally acting like he has early dementia while like 1/4 of the people in his campaign were on the Russian dole. And vaguely this just continued into the Presidency to some degree.

That said, if his campaign collaborated in any way with the hack on the DNC/Podesta/whatever, whether that’s asking for it, using the information prior to it being public, coordinating with where and how to leak it, or even being aware that it occurred or was going to occur outside of “I read it in the paper/saw on fox and friends/etc” then a crime occurred.

A reasonable person can expect that something in the above might have happened, because Papa-D basically alluded to this with the Aussie dude in like May of 2016, and then turned states witness like a year later.

If any of that is proven, then its sort of immaterial whether or not Trump committed the crime, because he then tried to orchestrate a coverup and plainly tried to obstruct the investigation on multiple occasions. This scenario is similar to Nixon, who did not order the watergate break in, but tried to cover it up anyway.

IMO, this makes way more sense than the idea that Trump was too smart to get into trouble with the Russians, yet not smart enough to not obstruct justice for an investigation of crimes he was innocent of (which is still a crime anyway).  Maybe it makes sense if he was instead trying to hide a bunch of other unrelated pre campaign crimes, like money laundering, that he was afraid would come to light as a result of any increased scrutiny.

[agrajag]

damn you're so sensitive

[Assimilate]

Could you imagine the meltdowns people would have if Trump won again?

Part of me wants to see it 

[agrajag]

Most of you is dumbass.

[benjipwns]

I should correct an impression I gave above, as I realized I may have gave the impression that I would accept Mueller's report as some kind of finality. That's a straight up lie and I should have seen to be honest. I see no reason to accept a report that comes back as a summary of things 95% of which we knew about prior and brings no charges related to the 2016 election. Just useless bureaucratic churn and whitewash like the Rockefeller or 9/11 Commission or so on. So in reality I can't see there to be any future reason at all for me to comment on the case further other than said irritating masturbation regarding minutiae.

Maybe it makes sense if he was instead trying to hide a bunch of other unrelated pre campaign crimes, like money laundering, that he was afraid would come to light as a result of any increased scrutiny.

This has always been closer to my position than Trump never anything did untoward or is just a buffoon.

Though even there I prefer the stupid explanation. Like why Trump wouldn't release his taxes, I'm assuming it's less because of anything nefarious hidden in there than the simple fact it would show he's not as wealthy/successful as he claims.

Nixon didn't order the second Watergate break-in when they got caught due to bad tape (Hunt strongly suggested that was Liddy personally trying to fix something he had botched prior), but he did order a whole bunch of the rest of CREEPs activities and is on the tapes ordering things even more illegal but Halderman always kiboshed them as Nixon would forget about it after ranting.

And the whole reason Nixon installed the automatic tape recording system was because he wanted protection against what he expected to be in Kissinger's memoirs.

[thehunter116]

It's not to my knowledge de facto illegal for Americans to communicate with people from other countries. Which is usually what I am told is the crime that President of the United States Donald J. Trump and nasty woman Crooked Hillary committed.

Actually Trump's crime his corroborating and using illegally stolen information of a domestic political opponent from a foreign government, which by definition is espionage as well as nefarious and dubious relationships with said government.

However this is all conjecture until Mueller is finished. Obstruction of justice looks likely though. 

[thehunter116]

Here’s your quo:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-house-official-floated-withdrawing-us-forces-to-please-putin?ref=home



Not really... but interesting.

"Well, we're going to hit the reset button and start fresh because clearly the Obama administration believes that there are a number of important areas to discuss with the Russians. We're just at the beginning of this discussion, but I'm looking forward to it. "

"The basis for my discussion began with this simple premise, that Russia and the United States must establish a new relationship beyond that of the old cold war mentality. The cold war said loud and clear that we're opponents and that we bring the peace through the ability for each of us to destroy each other. Friends don't destroy each other."

"Russia is important to America. Our economies are connected. We share values, interests and friendship. We share security interests and heavy security responsibilities."

"...to further reduce tensions, I am directing that all United States strategic bombers immediately standdown from their alert posture."

"I believe that 1984 finds the United States in the strongest position in years to establish a constructive and realistic working relationship with the Soviet Union. We've come a long way since the decade of the 70's, years when the United States seemed filled with self-doubt and neglected its defenses while the Soviet Union increased its military might and sought to expand its influence by armed forces and threat. "

I mean...Russia hadn't directly involved itself in our elections at the time helping Obama so...

[benjipwns]

shit i think i linked to one of the podesta e-mails and have definitely described the contents of them

[thehunter116]

No don't stop sharing your views. I am far from an arbitrer of what's acceptable to post or not. I just think you try to paint some of us as ridiculous when we are asking fair questions. Like you say there's no crime in campaigns communicating with other countries. And I say sure, but communicating an extraordinary amount with a hostile nation that was at the time actively trying to throw the election in your favor is going to raise my eyebrow.

And if I were to guess, my personal analysis is that Trumpnis a profoundly ignorant person. By my estimation, Russia views him as a useful idiot. I don't believe anyone is arguing that he personally made quid pro quo deals with Russian operatives. But it seems like everyone around him, in his campaign, had shady dealings with people tied to Kremlin. And if he had any kind of knowledge of it, he is complicit. And his ignorance, lack of caring and stupidity is not a shield.

Bingo.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think Trump is some grand mastermind. He's an idiotic trust fund kid with dementia in over his head. That is still no excuse for so many illegal, corrupt actions within his own family let alone administration; specifically dealing with Russia. I do think he has some criminal acts involving Russia but not directly involved with Russian 2016 election meddling. I think he knew the basics but that's at most what he was in the know about.

That said he'd  still be guilty of conspiracy and espionage. If I am the get away driver in a robbery and my accomplice shoots and kills the cashier I am now an accessory to 2nd degree murder and can be charged with similar jail time. Same thing applies to all those around him; they clearly knew what they were doing and thus he is guilty by association and part of the "conspiracy" (which is legal definition of collusion). Alas we must wait and see how deep the rabbit hole goes. However, anyone with basic knowledge and two eyes can see where this is likely headed.

Watergate 2.0: Bigger. Bolder. More Russian.

[thehunter116]

shit i think i linked to one of the podesta e-mails and have definitely described the contents of them

Are you an elected official of 2016 and/or did you knowingly partake in a criminal conspiracy to acquire said emails?

[benjipwns]

I mean...Russia hadn't directly involved itself in our elections at the time helping Obama so...

didn't they though?!?

In the runup to the 2012 US presidential election in November, English-language channel RT America -created and financed by the Russian Government and part of Russian Government-sponsored RT TV (see textbox 1) -- intensified its usually critical coverage of the United States. The channel portrayed the US electoral process as undemocratic and featured calls by US protesters for the public to rise up and "take this government back."

RT introduced two new shows -- "Breaking the Set" on 4 September and "Truthseeker" on 2 November -- both overwhelmingly focused on criticism of US and Western governments as well as the promotion of radical discontent.

...

RT aired a documentary about the Occupy Wall Street movement on 1, 2, and 4 November. RT framed the movement as a fight against "the ruling class" and described the current US political system as corrupt and dominated by corporations.

...

RT has also focused on criticism of the US economic system, US currency policy, alleged Wall Street greed, and the US national debt. Some of RT's hosts have compared the United States to Imperial Rome and have predicted that government corruption and "corporate greed" will lead to US financial collapse (RT, 31 October, 4 November).

...

RT runs anti-fracking programming, highlighting environmental issues and the impacts on public health.

You didn't build that, the Kremlin did.

Long-time Russian front organization condemns "corporate greed":


Coordinated attack on prominent Russian opponent and American patriot Mitt Romney by Obama White House:

Obama senior political strategist David Axelrod tied Mitt Romney to corporate greed on Tuesday as the president’s reelection campaign sought to play to the surging Occupy Wall Street protests.

“I think there’s some question as to what his core convictions are,” Axelrod said Tuesday on "Morning Joe." “I think, also, he says he represents business, but he really represents the Wall Street side of business in ways — you know, he stripped down companies and outsourced jobs in ways that I think reflect people’s concerns about the economy.”

...

Axelrod suggested the president wants to align himself with the concerns of those protesting Wall Street

And who was in office, having regular communications with the Russians during the 2016 elections that once again handed an L to his Clinton enemies? Barack Hussein Obama. Susan Rice. LORETTA LYNCH. JAMES COMEY.

All in retaliation for her knee-capping Bernie I suspect.

[thehunter116]

I mean...Russia hadn't directly involved itself in our elections at the time helping Obama so...

didn't they though?!?

In the runup to the 2012 US presidential election in November, English-language channel RT America -created and financed by the Russian Government and part of Russian Government-sponsored RT TV (see textbox 1) -- intensified its usually critical coverage of the United States. The channel portrayed the US electoral process as undemocratic and featured calls by US protesters for the public to rise up and "take this government back."

RT introduced two new shows -- "Breaking the Set" on 4 September and "Truthseeker" on 2 November -- both overwhelmingly focused on criticism of US and Western governments as well as the promotion of radical discontent.

...

RT aired a documentary about the Occupy Wall Street movement on 1, 2, and 4 November. RT framed the movement as a fight against "the ruling class" and described the current US political system as corrupt and dominated by corporations.

...

RT has also focused on criticism of the US economic system, US currency policy, alleged Wall Street greed, and the US national debt. Some of RT's hosts have compared the United States to Imperial Rome and have predicted that government corruption and "corporate greed" will lead to US financial collapse (RT, 31 October, 4 November).

...

RT runs anti-fracking programming, highlighting environmental issues and the impacts on public health.

You didn't build that, the Kremlin did.

Long-time Russian front organization condemns "corporate greed":


Coordinated attack on prominent Russian opponent and American patriot Mitt Romney by Obama White House:

Obama senior political strategist David Axelrod tied Mitt Romney to corporate greed on Tuesday as the president’s reelection campaign sought to play to the surging Occupy Wall Street protests.

“I think there’s some question as to what his core convictions are,” Axelrod said Tuesday on "Morning Joe." “I think, also, he says he represents business, but he really represents the Wall Street side of business in ways — you know, he stripped down companies and outsourced jobs in ways that I think reflect people’s concerns about the economy.”

...

Axelrod suggested the president wants to align himself with the concerns of those protesting Wall Street

And who was in office, having regular communications with the Russians during the 2016 elections that once again handed an L to his Clinton enemies? Barack Hussein Obama. Susan Rice. LORETTA LYNCH. JAMES COMEY.

All in retaliation for her knee-capping Bernie I suspect.

I see nothing criminal here.

Again if this was just RT or Pac ads this would be a nothingburger. What happened with the DNC was watergate but virtual.

With foreign actors.

[agrajag]

I do think Trump has ties to Russian mob, is tied up in money laundering schemes, etc. The Mueller investigation looks like it has a broad scope, so I look forward to any and all of his illegal activities being uncovered 

[Trent Dole]

Could you imagine the meltdowns people would have if Drumpf won again?

Part of me wants to see it 

If Hill runs again he wins again, popular vote this time too.

[benjipwns]

Are you an elected official of 2016

Neither Trump nor Hillary were so I don't think this matters does it?

and/or did you knowingly partake in a criminal conspiracy to acquire said emails?

Probably under the current set of federal and state laws. But actually I just wanted to point out that his e-mails were snatched in March 2016, near the end of an effort the DNI/CIA/FBI report said started in July 2015. I don't think Wikileaks has stated when they received them?

[thehunter116]

Are you an elected official of 2016

Neither Trump nor Hillary were so I don't think this matters does it?

and/or did you knowingly partake in a criminal conspiracy to acquire said emails?

Probably under the current set of federal and state laws. But actually I just wanted to point out that his e-mails were snatched in March 2016, near the end of an effort the DNI/CIA/FBI report said started in July 2015. I don't think Wikileaks has stated when they received them?

Benji c'mon man.

They've acknowledged Russia was the ones responsible for the hack.

[benjipwns]

huh? what are you responding to in that post with this? where was it started otherwise?

Again if this was just RT or Pac ads this would be a nothingburger. What happened with the DNC was watergate but virtual.

With foreign actors.

see it's stuff like this, like what do you even mean by it's "Watergate" because that encompasses an endless amount of directions you could head in with the comparison, not to mention "Watergate" had three dudes born in Cuba involved and helped the Democrats stop Nixon from defeating Communism in Vietnam (and then there's the foreign cash in Nixon's presidential campaigns)

we're never going to find Seth Rich's killer following this method

[thehunter116]

That's my benji.

[benjipwns]

oh i see where i was unclear, i meant when did wikileaks get them from russia

i assume it has to be nearer to when they released them, not March when they were grabbed... March was probably Bernie's best month and the start of April was when he had basically tied Hillary in national polls, if Assange had them then that seems like it would be an ideal time to throw them into the primaries

[benjipwns]

i suppose he might have been dumb enough not to have anyone look at them and realize they weren't worth sitting on, he has a history of poor decision making

[Mandark]

I don't think any real serious masterminds are going to look at Trump, his sons, his organization and say "yep, these are totally people we should collude with on regarding the largest media spectacle of its age"

Yeah, governments trying to influence the domestic politics of other countries are famously picky about their choice of proxies.

[Nola]

[agrajag]

tldr lol

[kingv]

Shostakovich is so reasonable that he doesn’t doubt any specific parts of the dossier, but also doesn’t doubt that Trump is clean as a whistle.

[Joe Molotov]

Darrel Issa is bailing the fuck out. Rats, ships, etc.

[etiolate]

After further discussion, my comparison to y'all and fanboys remains solid.

Which I love, since people think they're above the gafreset thread. Nah, you just the same bitches with a new boardgame.

I think thehunter should learn to be less trusting of the parts of the government that keep getting caught in lies. Don't trust 'deep state' reports until they can provide proof.

[kingv]

I’m beginning to come to your way of thinking, please link the best Seth Rich information that you have for our review.

[Tasty]

https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/950811488809357312

[Nola]

After further discussion, my comparison to y'all and fanboys remains solid.

Which I love, since people think they're above the gafreset thread. Nah, you just the same bitches with a new boardgame.

I think thehunter should learn to be less trusting of the parts of the government that keep getting caught in lies. Don't trust 'deep state' reports until they can provide proof.

I find one of the ironies of your persona is that you spend more time absorbing yourself in your own brand of identity politics than the people you spend your waking hours deriding for doing the same.

[agrajag]

After further discussion, my comparison to y'all and fanboys remains solid.

Which I love, since people think they're above the gafreset thread. Nah, you just the same bitches with a new boardgame.

I think thehunter should learn to be less trusting of the parts of the government that keep getting caught in lies. Don't trust 'deep state' reports until they can provide proof.

I find one of the ironies of your persona is that you spend more time absorbing yourself in your own brand of identity politics than the people you spend your waking hours deriding for doing the same.

Take your L's with some dignity man.

[etiolate]

uh

How long has Nola been responding to me? I told him months ago that it was his last chance to understand what I was saying and he failed that. If you can't produce the ability to be worth talking to then you get parsed.  I've had him on ignore for months.

This isn't a persona. It's a reflection how I view many of you.

[zomgee]

did somebody say something

[kingv]

We have an ignore function?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/mueller-adds-veteran-cyber-prosecutor-to-special-counsel-team/2018/01/10/860f3364-f585-11e7-b34a-b85626af34ef_story.html?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.b746cd20919e

Looks like Mueller just added a prosecutor to the team that specifically focuses on cyber crimes.

My guess is that this means
1) buckle up fam, we’re in this for a while longer
2) this is probably not just focusing into the circumstances around Comey

[Joe Molotov]

3) Hillary's deleted emails are close to be found.

[Mandark]

If you can't produce the ability to be worth talking to then you get parsed.  I've had him on ignore for months.

inigomontoya.jpg

[agrajag]

uh

How long has Nola been responding to me? I told him months ago that it was his last chance to understand what I was saying and he failed that. If you can't produce the ability to be worth talking to then you get parsed.  I've had him on ignore for months.

This isn't a persona. It's a reflection how I view many of you.

breh stop posting like you are a supervillain

[etiolate]

And then you all insist on your cartoon persona of me

[zomgee]

3) Hillary's deleted emails are close to be found.

Seth Rich is in The Matrix!

[agrajag]

And then you all insist on your cartoon persona of me

Don't blame us. Cause and effect bro

[TakingBackSunday]

defends t_d
thinks gamergate is about ethics in videogame journalism
thinks there's more to seth rich story
thinks there's nothing to the russia story


hmm yeah, definitely not a cartoon persona

[etiolate]

And then you all insist on your cartoon persona of me

Don't blame us. Cause and effect bro

the cause is bias and how your mind deals with conflicting views and information

[thehunter116]

And then you all insist on your cartoon persona of me

You're a shitty less fun version of Benji and you suck.


https://twitter.com/businessinsider/status/951187347458142209?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbusinessinsider%2Fstatus%2F951187347458142209

It's called Nepotism BI.

[CatsCatsCats]

benji clearly has fun when he posts, so he’s enjoyable. etiolate just seems to enjoy negative attention and seemingly avoids earnest argument (see putting Nola on ignore and ignoring many, many salient points brought against him to reply to shit posts instead)

[agrajag]

And then you all insist on your cartoon persona of me

Don't blame us. Cause and effect bro

the cause is bias and how your mind deals with conflicting views and information

No the cause is that you are a pompous jackass that posts shit like

"You did not heed my last ultimatum, you have no choice but to surrender make your time"

[etiolate]

benji clearly has fun when he posts, so he’s enjoyable. etiolate just seems to enjoy negative attention and seemingly avoids earnest argument (see putting Nola on ignore and ignoring many, many salient points brought against him to reply to shit posts instead)

Actually, what I want is earnest arguments, but I have never got them. See the Seth rich thing, where my claim was that its very possible he was the leak. My reasons were Wiki heavily hinting so and others have claimed as such. (The journalist that had the source turned out to be Sy Hersh, who is well respected.) However, this gets played out as some conspiracy about Hillary killing Seth. "Have you caught Seth Rich's killer??? HURP HURP"

The idea I get earnest arguments or salient points is completely ridiculous. I get clownshoe shit.

I have fun when I post, but not all the time. The problem is very few of you can figure out when I'm having a laugh at the expense of the cartoon ideas people have and when I'm making a serious point.

If I got earnest arguments, the topic of replies wouldn't be me. It would be the idea.

[El Babua]

So how about Kim dotcom having access to Hillary's deleted emails? 

[CatsCatsCats]

You’ve proved my point by replying to my shit post, check mate

[agrajag]

Bitch, you were using Kim Dotcom as a source!

[etiolate]

Kim said he could show it. If he shows it, then he's a source. Kim is involved with the Internet Party and in the circles who work with Wikileaks. It's not shocking that he might know. He could also be bluffing.

The question is why you think its crazy he might have contacted Rich? Do you think he's just a troll? He ran a big time business. He is a part of that whistleblower community.

The world has shifted a bit and if you don't understand the change then you'll never understand the point of view of people who have.

[etiolate]

me?

[etiolate]

I'm chill. Don't feel like joking about my sanity. This shit is normal.

[VomKriege]

Can empathy bloom on the cultural battlefield ?

[thehunter116]

benji clearly has fun when he posts, so he’s enjoyable. etiolate just seems to enjoy negative attention and seemingly avoids earnest argument (see putting Nola on ignore and ignoring many, many salient points brought against him to reply to shit posts instead)

Actually, what I want is earnest arguments, but I have never got them. See the Seth rich thing, where my claim was that its very possible he was the leak. My reasons were Wiki heavily hinting so and others have claimed as such. (The journalist that had the source turned out to be Sy Hersh, who is well respected.) However, this gets played out as some conspiracy about Hillary killing Seth. "Have you caught Seth Rich's killer??? HURP HURP"

The idea I get earnest arguments or salient points is completely ridiculous. I get clownshoe shit.

I have fun when I post, but not all the time. The problem is very few of you can figure out when I'm having a laugh at the expense of the cartoon ideas people have and when I'm making a serious point.

If I got earnest arguments, the topic of replies wouldn't be me. It would be the idea.

If the shoe fits 

[agrajag]

Can empathy bloom on the cultural battlefield ?

We are strong
No one can tell us we're wrong
Searching our hearts for so long
Both of us knowing
Love is a battlefield

[Mandark]

et, you expect the original Fox News story to be vindicated?

[etiolate]

et, you expect the original Fox News story to be vindicated?

To be precise, it was a local Fox station story, if I recall.

Sy Hersh turned out to be the source on that. The detective's claim was based on Hersh's findings. I believe Sy truly had a source in the FBI, but couldn't get a second confirmation and so did not go public. So it gets out via the detective, and then later by a voice recording of Hersh saying such.

I expect we'll eventually find Rich did leak files to Wiki via some route. I don't think this will be released while we're still in this national hysteria and pursuing this Red Scare.

There is always a chance this is not the case, but I don't see the large gain for the parties involved to create this story. It all goes back to Assange hinting at such rather out of the blue. This was done before Trump was elected and the Russia narrative kicked up. I think the interview was in Aug of 2016. So ideas that the story was made to derail Russia allegations doesn't add up with the time line.