Author Topic: Black Panther and embracing its message  (Read 33530 times)

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HardcoreRetro

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #120 on: July 23, 2018, 04:43:53 AM »
What's the deal with socialist states never getting to the part were it says "withering away of the state".

VomKriege

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #121 on: July 23, 2018, 04:46:21 AM »
Even when black people were second class citizens under capitalism they were enabled to produce profound works of art. Jazz? Capitalism. Blues? Capitalism. Hip hop? Rock? Capitalism.
I think that this is the most reductive thing I've ever read in my entire life.

Blues ? Slavery.
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HardcoreRetro

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #122 on: July 23, 2018, 04:48:21 AM »
Even when black people were second class citizens under capitalism they were enabled to produce profound works of art. Jazz? Capitalism. Blues? Capitalism. Hip hop? Rock? Capitalism.
I think that this is the most reductive thing I've ever read in my entire life.

Blues ? Slavery.

Wow, thanks white people. :)

I love the blues.

benjipwns

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #123 on: July 23, 2018, 04:55:03 AM »
What's the deal with socialist states never getting to the part were it says "withering away of the state".
Because they didn't follow the science as divined to Marx properly. They deviated somewhere preventing the scientifically guaranteed achievement of true socialism and thus true communism.

Bob Avakian's new synthesis may provide an answer however. GET INTO BA*!

*BEST EXPERIENCED WHILE ENJOYING YUM! BRANDS PRODUCTS!

HardcoreRetro

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #124 on: July 23, 2018, 04:59:33 AM »
Stalin must've just gotten bored while listening to the audiobook version of the communist manifesto.

"Marx is right though and you all are just autistys." - Stalin

benjipwns

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #125 on: July 23, 2018, 05:13:30 AM »
Well, actually...

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #126 on: July 23, 2018, 08:13:22 AM »
Even when black people were second class citizens under capitalism they were enabled to produce profound works of art. Jazz? Capitalism. Blues? Capitalism. Hip hop? Rock? Capitalism.
I think that this is the most reductive thing I've ever read in my entire life.

Blues ? Slavery.

Slavery is peak capitalism

Ending slavery was actually a protectionist socialist move to protect the infant industries of the north while the enlightened southern states wanted free trade
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 08:22:17 AM by Premium Lager »

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #127 on: July 23, 2018, 08:14:58 AM »
have you considered instead of flipping to different sides and researching/writing like 8 paragraphs of shit that you'll only turn against in a few years/months that you just remove yourself entirely from those issues if you cant "help yourself"

like have you considered just living your life, taking up a couple hobbies, drinking a bit, watching TV, traveling etc.

yknow instead of wasting away your life on GAF/Era/TheBore

I feel like this post is directed to all of us

shosta

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #128 on: July 23, 2018, 08:29:43 AM »
Shots fired at everyone. It's a mass shooting. Maybe now Cindi will reconsider her 2nd amendment position after such a horrific act of violence.
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Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2018, 09:18:57 AM »
Even when black people were second class citizens under capitalism they were enabled to produce profound works of art. Jazz? Capitalism. Blues? Capitalism. Hip hop? Rock? Capitalism.
I think that this is the most reductive thing I've ever read in my entire life.

Blues ? Slavery.

The point is with capitalism people have an outlet to have their voice heard at least. That is quite literally the point. Meanwhile in Cuba and other socialist nations they lack any form of artistic autonomy. You can’t talk about your life and bad conditions in hip hop in Cuba or else you’re becoming an enemy of the state. Because it is itself a critique of the state. Meanwhile, in America, capitalism allowed black people to critique our own government and oppressors because capitalism isn’t the state. Langston Hughes could write The Ways of White Folk in the height of Jim Crow and not be forced to be arrested. Because capitalism is an economic system and not a full expanse of power of the state like socialism is.

The point is that capitalism, while obviously not being perfect and having lots of bad things in its history allows far more expanse of human freedom because art, wonder, beauty, and criticism of forces are allowed because pelple like money.

Compared to socialism where every regime must crack its citizens like a rock.

In terms of human expression and freedom, despite its flaws and excesses, capitalism wins.

Not that blues wasn’t created by slavery.
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Mandark

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #130 on: July 23, 2018, 09:20:23 AM »
It'd be pretty wild if a capitalist country had ever imposed rules censoring artistic expression.

Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #131 on: July 23, 2018, 09:28:20 AM »
Mandark would that country dictate limiting artistic expression in the name of capitalism though? There in lies the difference.

have you considered instead of flipping to different sides and researching/writing like 8 paragraphs of shit that you'll only turn against in a few years/months that you just remove yourself entirely from those issues if you cant "help yourself"

like have you considered just living your life, taking up a couple hobbies, drinking a bit, watching TV, traveling etc.

yknow instead of wasting away your life on GAF/Era/TheBore

I am on my way to become a master artist from my training. After that I am gunning for working in Hollywood again.

I have picked up electric guitar. I played in school band for about eight years and I miss playing music. Learning guitar isn’t so bad with a music foundation and I should be playing funk by the end of the year.

I have become quite good at playing Street Fighter.

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Mandark

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #132 on: July 23, 2018, 09:29:27 AM »
Mandark would that country dictate limiting artistic expression in the name of capitalism though? There in lies the difference.

Yes, the United States did this.

Flannel Boy

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #133 on: July 23, 2018, 09:33:35 AM »

Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #134 on: July 23, 2018, 09:34:13 AM »
Shots fired at everyone. It's a mass shooting. Maybe now Cindi will reconsider her 2nd amendment position after such a horrific act of violence.

The deaths are awful. But no. Especially in light that it happens in Canada which already has tight gun laws. You people won’t stop until you ban rocks from being thrown for self defense.
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Mandark

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #135 on: July 23, 2018, 09:36:54 AM »
Pretty sure Shosta was responding to Lager's post directly above his and that it's a joke.

Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #136 on: July 23, 2018, 09:39:58 AM »
Sorry I glaze over lager posts because he’s a sad asshole of a man.
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Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #137 on: July 23, 2018, 09:40:50 AM »
Mandark would that country dictate limiting artistic expression in the name of capitalism though? There in lies the difference.

Yes, the United States did this.

As wide sweeping as socialism? Like I said, capitalism has its share of excesses. But to the degree of socialism? No.

I’m about to start a 12 hour shift at work. Later.
IYKYK

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #138 on: July 23, 2018, 09:46:49 AM »
Surely this semi-spark in corporate Afrocentrism will result in (black) people supporting black businesses, more community work, etc etc. Right? No? Yea...
 :snoop

As a black man there are few things more deflating than when I go to Big Brother/Big Sister events to work with inner city kids and all the volunteers except me are white. I'm not going to make some macro statement on things based off that anecdote but that shit sucks brehs. I haven't seen Black Panther because I'm not a Marvel nerd, but the memes and responses it garnered on social media were annoying to see when you consider how hyped people get for corporate "woke" shit vs actual "woke" shit.

The major failing of the BLM movement to me is that it became more of an ambulance chasing movement than any tangible effort to work within the black community to achieve things. And that's why I hate hearing it compared to the Black Panthers. My mom is old enough to remember the Panthers providing breakfast for inner city kids, starting urban farming, promoting (and protecting) black businesses, etc. Now would be a perfect time for a return of that type of energy. But people would rather pretend or appear to be woke online than actually do shit. Alas.

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HardcoreRetro

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #139 on: July 23, 2018, 09:48:51 AM »
Cindy Mayweather? More like senator McCarthy.

Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #140 on: July 23, 2018, 09:50:32 AM »
Surely this semi-spark in corporate Afrocentrism will result in (black) people supporting black businesses, more community work, etc etc. Right? No? Yea...
 :snoop

As a black man there are few things more deflating than when I go to Big Brother/Big Sister events to work with inner city kids and all the volunteers except me are white. I'm not going to make some macro statement on things based off that anecdote but that shit sucks brehs. I haven't seen Black Panther because I'm not a Marvel nerd, but the memes and responses it garnered on social media were annoying to see when you consider how hyped people get for corporate "woke" shit vs actual "woke" shit.

The major failing of the BLM movement to me is that it became more of an ambulance chasing movement than any tangible effort to work within the black community to achieve things. And that's why I hate hearing it compared to the Black Panthers. My mom is old enough to remember the Panthers providing breakfast for inner city kids, starting urban farming, promoting (and protecting) black businesses, etc. Now would be a perfect time for a return of that type of energy. But people would rather pretend or appear to be woke online than actually do shit. Alas.

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Right?

BLM is trash.
Whatever "movement" they got going now? It is trash.

Black Panthers are still the GOAT black org.

BLM won't move like BPP because BLM tries to be exclusive to black people while BPP allowed anyone in their org no matter the race.  BPP made moves and allies. BLM sits in the corner of the room taking a dump while wearing a fuck white people shirt.
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HardcoreRetro

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #141 on: July 23, 2018, 09:50:35 AM »
when I go to Big Brother events

Damn, better watch out for this guy.

Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #142 on: July 23, 2018, 09:54:00 AM »
PD I wrote a similar post at neogaf and it got me the perma clap over a year ago.

Quote from: Cindi Mayweather, post: 238368597, member: 557156
On the front lines of the racial war, we really, really need to lighten Evil Ryu's skin tone because it's highly, highly problematic.


As a black person I get why it bothers some people. At the same time it's at the bottom of things to give a fuck about. What's more pressing is that Nintendo does not find it ok to allow you to pick your skin tone in Animal Crossong because they view white as the default. Even then, it's not worth truly getting mad about beyond annoyance.


This is why people like this are called SJWs. It's not that social justice is bad. It's that they try to make everything about their social justice. The really big irony here is that kids in Flint are dying of lead poisoning and here we are talking about Evil Ryu and Violent Ken's skin colors. SJWs betray their own arguments. They talk of things like privelage but lack the self awareness to realize many of their pet issues - like this one - operate on said privilege. By concentrating on something so not noteworthy that actually affects living, breathing people, they take jabs at larger society they disagree, exposing their own privilege. Bet you 100 bucks the person who made this is living comfortable. Yeah, they may have had the racist encounter or two, but are they living well? Probably. How can you tell? Because they base their arguments of social justice based around video game characters made and designed in a foreign land across the sea rather than pushing for voting locally, donating to their HBCU, or volunteering.


They don't push for action that will result in any real lasting change. They just want their video game characters to stop offending them so much.


Prime example as to why SJWs and by larger extent our generation, are seen as a damn joke while not realizing their own argument is steeped in privelage.

Go to a local school board meeting and absolutely zero black people. And the ones that are? Republicans.

Bitch about the system while not participating in the system brehs.

We are officially old my dude.
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #143 on: July 23, 2018, 10:03:14 AM »
Like I said earlier, socialism acts as a check on pure capitalism. I don't think pure capitalism is good. Or else we'd be in factories without breaks. But I especially don't think pure socialism is good either. I don't bring up pure capitalism because no one besides libertarians argue for pure capitalism. There are however lots of people who argue for pure socialism, however.

And yeah it sucks. Yeah we are manipulated. I know that too well. At least we have an outlet. So I can't be too mad.

I don't see how arguing that capitalism allowed black people an outlet as disgusting at all. Shit, you ain't even black.
IYKYK

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #144 on: July 23, 2018, 10:08:38 AM »
The issue isn't that BLM doesn't want white people involved - there ARE white people involved. There are more white people involved in various aspects in BLM than the Panthers, so that's not an issue. The issue is that their focus is not on community outreach or grassroots change. I understand the opposing argument would be "but the BLM is moreso aimed at changing or confronting white views, not on telling black people what they already know." Yea ok. I have zero interest in begging oppressors for things, or telling people to "stop shooting me" or whatever else in 2018. White views on the police aren't changing anytime soon. I'm more interested in tangible progress within the black community. Supporting black businesses, community outreach, giving young people THINGS to do in safe places.

One of the cool things I've been apart of is going to predominantly black schools and mentoring, including giving presentations on...my job. It sounds weird, but just talking to at-risk kids about your job can spark their mind. Giving them ideas about what they might want to do, showing them how some of the things they're learning in middle/high school can be applied in later life....it matters. Representation matters. I can dap the Black Panther movie for that alone. This is an area where I have seen more black men involved, and I love it.
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agrajag

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #145 on: July 23, 2018, 10:13:49 AM »
A shit ton of great art was made under feudal and imperial regimes.

benjipwns

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #146 on: July 23, 2018, 10:30:55 AM »
Nintendo? Capitalism.

Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #147 on: July 23, 2018, 10:36:09 AM »
The issue isn't that BLM doesn't want white people involved - there ARE white people involved. There are more white people involved in various aspects in BLM than the Panthers, so that's not an issue. The issue is that their focus is not on community outreach or grassroots change. I understand the opposing argument would be "but the BLM is moreso aimed at changing or confronting white views, not on telling black people what they already know." Yea ok. I have zero interest in begging oppressors for things, or telling people to "stop shooting me" or whatever else in 2018. White views on the police aren't changing anytime soon. I'm more interested in tangible progress within the black community. Supporting black businesses, community outreach, giving young people THINGS to do in safe places.

One of the cool things I've been apart of is going to predominantly black schools and mentoring, including giving presentations on...my job. It sounds weird, but just talking to at-risk kids about your job can spark their mind. Giving them ideas about what they might want to do, showing them how some of the things they're learning in middle/high school can be applied in later life....it matters. Representation matters. I can dap the Black Panther movie for that alone. This is an area where I have seen more black men involved, and I love it.

What do you think of the idea that black people tried to gain political power before economic power?

Also, a lot of people aren't willing to deal with black businesses because they tend to be start ups and not as fast as the big brands. I buy from Black Girl Long Hair and other black businesses deliberately even though it might take two weeks for it to get to me. A lot of people aren't willing to do that. Sometimes supporting black businesses might be more expensive or it'll take a longer time to get to you but I find it a worthy investment.

That's really cool of you to do that for those kids.

So one thing I've been getting involved with is a cemetery. It isn't just *any* cemetery. It was the cemetery they forced black people to be buried at. During a time of segregation, black people weren't allowed in town at night. So of course plots of lands were segregated and black people weren't allowed to be buried on the same land as white people. So they started their own cemetery. It's officially called the town name's black american cemetery. But recently they're trying to change it and make it a historical landmark while changing its name to some to reflect the entire town, taking away from its historical roots and white washing the racist history of the town. So my Republican black mentor and I are trying to fight to keep the name of the cemetery before it's turned into a historical landmark.

Things like that matter.

Are there really more white people involved in BLM than the BPP? I think its exclusivity is an issue.

Also I'm trying to come up with a single win the BLM movement has had in its 5-6 years of existence. :trash
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Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #148 on: July 23, 2018, 10:37:54 AM »

The Blues was very much a “response” to their status, social/economic inequality, troubles. In no way shape or form did Capitalism birth the genre so much as inflict them with their circumstance.


I never said it did. What I'm saying is that capitalism allowed it to be sold and gave them a voice to speak legitimately.

Compared to...

https://www.vibe.com/2017/04/cuba-reggaeton-censorship/

Not that it allowed it to be created. You seem to not be understanding my point. At all. While arguing I'm being reductionist.

Meanwhile...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/cuban-hip-hop-scene-infiltrated-us-information-youth
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shosta

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #149 on: July 23, 2018, 10:40:59 AM »
Sorry I glaze over lager posts because he’s a sad asshole of a man.
Watch out, he'll ticket your black ass!
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Mandark

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #150 on: July 23, 2018, 10:49:12 AM »
BLM reminds me of Occupy: fairly spontaneous, youth-oriented protest movement that deliberately avoided centralized organization and had a fairly quick rise and fall. Each one was able to push an issue into the larger discourse, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of black activists 5-10 years from now cut their teeth on BLM, the way that a lot of people involved in organizing currently got their start with Occupy.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #151 on: July 23, 2018, 10:57:29 AM »
Jazz? Capitalism allowing black people to make a living? Let us not forget the movements to ban and discredit black jazz, which bubbled throughout various areas of the country for decades. Or how white jazz musicians and swing were used to silence black jazz artists, which in part led to the bebop movement. Or how bebop musicians were considered drug addicts...

Various states passed laws banning dancing just to kill black jazz lol. Capitalism tho.  :doge

(interestingly, New York's anti-dancing laws weren't repealed until last year. The law hadn't really been enforced since parts of the 1990s but even still...)
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Mandark

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #152 on: July 23, 2018, 11:05:42 AM »
PD, I knew you'd stand up for state-sponsored art, thanks to your close familiarity with the BBC.

agrajag

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #153 on: July 23, 2018, 11:09:03 AM »
Disney Marvel's Black Panther? Thanks Capitalism.

Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #154 on: July 23, 2018, 11:12:44 AM »
To summarize my point since you are not willing to engage without being reductionist and putting words in my mouth (“capitalism did not make blues!” No shit):

1. Blues, hip hop, jazz;et al don’t exist because of capitalism.
2. Capitalism allows them to exist. Not only merely exist but also thrive. Because everyone likes money.

And the fact that under state sponsored socialism none of these genres would likely be allowed to exist.

As an earlier example, Langton Hughes wrote The Ways of White Folks while under state sponsored apartheid.

He was not only allowed to write it, but sell it too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ways_of_White_Folks

But like I said. You don’t know me. You don't want to know me. Or else you wouldn’t say that I think blues and jazz are the creations of capitalism.
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Mandark

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #155 on: July 23, 2018, 11:15:07 AM »
Maybe look at some of your own posts in the thread and wonder if they aren't also being slightly reductionist.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #156 on: July 23, 2018, 11:25:04 AM »
You didn't say they were the creations of capitalism, true. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that capitalism led to major benefits for the BLACK creators of those genres. Did capitalism help...Howlin Wolf get more shows in the 60s and 70s? Sure. But capitalism also ensured the blues (and rock) were effectively pillaged by white artists who earned far more money off it than the black creators. Not to mention the (white) record label culture vultures who swooped in and bought the rights to a lot of that music.

In terms of these things only being capable in a capitalist society...gonna need evidence of that. Because all those genres were created under the worst possible environment for people (slavery and jim crow). If you can create and enjoy art while slaves, I'm pretty sure you could do the same under a socialist regime.  :doge
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thisismyusername

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #157 on: July 23, 2018, 11:32:05 AM »
1. Blues, hip hop, jazz;et al don’t exist because of capitalism.
2. Capitalism allows them to exist. Not only merely exist but also thrive. Because everyone likes money.

"I didn't say they exist because of capitalism, but capitalism allows them to exist." :thinking

Nola

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #158 on: July 23, 2018, 11:47:37 AM »


The point is with capitalism people have an outlet to have their voice heard at least. That is quite literally the point. Meanwhile in Cuba and other socialist nations they lack any form of artistic autonomy. You can’t talk about your life and bad conditions in hip hop in Cuba or else you’re becoming an enemy of the state. Because it is itself a critique of the state. Meanwhile, in America, capitalism allowed black people to critique our own government and oppressors because capitalism isn’t the state. Langston Hughes could write The Ways of White Folk in the height of Jim Crow and not be forced to be arrested. Because capitalism is an economic system and not a full expanse of power of the state like socialism is.

The point is that capitalism, while obviously not being perfect and having lots of bad things in its history allows far more expanse of human freedom because art, wonder, beauty, and criticism of forces are allowed because pelple like money.

Compared to socialism where every regime must crack its citizens like a rock.

In terms of human expression and freedom, despite its flaws and excesses, capitalism wins.

Not that blues wasn’t created by slavery.

Again, I’m not a champion of textbook Marxism, though I do think there has been plenty of worthwhile and innovative ideas out of it and the Marxist critique of capitalism is still one of the strongest articulations of some of the problems inherent with capitalism. I do think markets are a powerful tool for lots of good when properly constrained and managed. But you are sort of conflating authoritarianism under a bastardization of Marxism/socialism with actual Marxism/socialism. Doing that thing that conservatives love to do where they conflate Maoism or Leninism with Marxism or strains of modern socialism. It’s like conflating Nordic capitalism with Pinochet's Chile. Sure there’s crossover, but there are a metric fuckton of differences too.

 I would be curious what feature(s) it is you think endows “capitalism” with these sorts of unique abilities, to for instance allow artistic expression that aren’t possible under forms of socialism? If the only thing you think is untenable is non-market socialism under authoritarian rule, than that’s fine, still would be curious why artistry is impossible, but really just trying to get more of a feel for where the cleavages actually are.





BlueTsunami

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #159 on: July 23, 2018, 11:57:02 AM »
Mandark would that country dictate limiting artistic expression in the name of capitalism though? There in lies the difference.

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Boogie

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #160 on: July 23, 2018, 12:13:15 PM »
Mandark would that country dictate limiting artistic expression in the name of capitalism though? There in lies the difference.


Thought you had put him on ignore?   :ufup
MMA

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #161 on: July 23, 2018, 12:18:47 PM »
You didn't say they were the creations of capitalism, true. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that capitalism led to major benefits for the BLACK creators of those genres. Did capitalism help...Howlin Wolf get more shows in the 60s and 70s? Sure. But capitalism also ensured the blues (and rock) were effectively pillaged by white artists who earned far more money off it than the black creators. Not to mention the (white) record label culture vultures who swooped in and bought the rights to a lot of that music.

In terms of these things only being capable in a capitalist society...gonna need evidence of that. Because all those genres were created under the worst possible environment for people (slavery and jim crow). If you can create and enjoy art while slaves, I'm pretty sure you could do the same under a socialist regime.  :doge
He's right, you know?  :success
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ToxicAdam

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #162 on: July 23, 2018, 12:35:34 PM »
Old school socialism had this right though: Work itself is the path to a more fulfilled life. Capitalism has twisted that to "wealth itself is the path to a more fulfilled life". 

So, now you have these maniacs who chase it their entire lives and keep thinking the next million will bring them a new level of contentment. Stepping over whoever they can to get it. Or you have the people on the outside looking in who feel like life is worthless because they aren't making 6 figures a year (and probably never will). Despair, depression and self-sabotage soon follow.

So that creates a disconnect. Where we just focus on wealth itself and not just working itself as being it's own reward (adjacent to the financial compensation). Taking shortcuts, or handouts or grafting becomes a viable avenue when all anyone cares about is the end result.

It doesn't matter what your race is, all of us suffer from it and it is holding many people back.

 

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #163 on: July 23, 2018, 12:43:06 PM »
Sorry I glaze over lager posts because he’s a sad asshole of a man.

Id be sad if I didnt have everything you never will

Feels good not blame everyone and everything and just be happy man

I dont think you are capable of that

Always chasing that next thing that will "fix" you

Every fucking time you come back its the same schtick Zzzzzz
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 12:53:49 PM by Premium Lager »

warcock

  • Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #164 on: July 23, 2018, 01:01:33 PM »


The point is with capitalism people have an outlet to have their voice heard at least. That is quite literally the point. Meanwhile in Cuba and other socialist nations they lack any form of artistic autonomy. You can’t talk about your life and bad conditions in hip hop in Cuba or else you’re becoming an enemy of the state. Because it is itself a critique of the state. Meanwhile, in America, capitalism allowed black people to critique our own government and oppressors because capitalism isn’t the state. Langston Hughes could write The Ways of White Folk in the height of Jim Crow and not be forced to be arrested. Because capitalism is an economic system and not a full expanse of power of the state like socialism is.

The point is that capitalism, while obviously not being perfect and having lots of bad things in its history allows far more expanse of human freedom because art, wonder, beauty, and criticism of forces are allowed because pelple like money.

Compared to socialism where every regime must crack its citizens like a rock.

In terms of human expression and freedom, despite its flaws and excesses, capitalism wins.

Not that blues wasn’t created by slavery.

Again, I’m not a champion of textbook Marxism, though I do think there has been plenty of worthwhile and innovative ideas out of it and the Marxist critique of capitalism is still one of the strongest articulations of some of the problems inherent with capitalism. I do think markets are a powerful tool for lots of good when properly constrained and managed. But you are sort of conflating authoritarianism under a bastardization of Marxism/socialism with actual Marxism/socialism. Doing that thing that conservatives love to do where they conflate Maoism or Leninism with Marxism or strains of modern socialism. It’s like conflating Nordic capitalism with Pinochet's Chile. Sure there’s crossover, but there are a metric fuckton of differences too.

 I would be curious what feature(s) it is you think endows “capitalism” with these sorts of unique abilities, to for instance allow artistic expression that aren’t possible under forms of socialism? If the only thing you think is untenable is non-market socialism under authoritarian rule, than that’s fine, still would be curious why artistry is impossible, but really just trying to get more of a feel for where the cleavages actually are.

 :rejoice :rejoice :rejoice :rejoice :rejoice

Great Rumbler

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #165 on: July 23, 2018, 01:01:55 PM »
Solaris and Stalker came out of the Soviet Union, though.
dog

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #166 on: July 23, 2018, 01:07:27 PM »
Solaris is a Polish book

Great Rumbler

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #167 on: July 23, 2018, 01:08:17 PM »
Solaris is a Polish book

It's also a Russian movie.
dog

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #168 on: July 23, 2018, 01:11:29 PM »
Based on a Polish masterpiece

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #169 on: July 23, 2018, 01:14:35 PM »
Solaris and Stalker came out of the Soviet Union, though.

OH, there is actually a ton of great art that came out of Soviet Union. The problem is that most of it was insular, looking inward, docusing on subversion and satire of its oppressors. And some rooted in Eastern European folk culture. Like the bard movement, which were singer-songwriters using the Russian folk guitars to sublininally criticize the government. And what about Bulgakov? Vom Kriege can testify of his greatness. So much of it revolved around skirting government censure. And utilizing the intricacies and expressiveness of the Russian language. It just doesn't translate well. Many Western European musical artists made art in English to appeal to English-speaking nations. You could see how that would be a problem for Soviet Union and its imperialistic ambitions.

I guess what I am saying is that so much art from that region and time period is deeply intertwined in its own culture that a lot of it has gone under the radar. Russia's greatest poet, Pushkin is regarded as an equal to Shakespeare over there, and is credited for modernizing the Russian language. Yet he is obscure in the West.

But the idea that great art cannot and has not emerged from totalitarian regimes, let alone socialist economic structures, is preposterous.

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #170 on: July 23, 2018, 01:21:16 PM »
Based on a Polish masterpiece

Also a mediocre Capitalist remake  :doge

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #171 on: July 23, 2018, 01:39:38 PM »
You didn't say they were the creations of capitalism, true. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that capitalism led to major benefits for the BLACK creators of those genres. Did capitalism help...Howlin Wolf get more shows in the 60s and 70s? Sure. But capitalism also ensured the blues (and rock) were effectively pillaged by white artists who earned far more money off it than the black creators. Not to mention the (white) record label culture vultures who swooped in and bought the rights to a lot of that music.

In terms of these things only being capable in a capitalist society...gonna need evidence of that. Because all those genres were created under the worst possible environment for people (slavery and jim crow). If you can create and enjoy art while slaves, I'm pretty sure you could do the same under a socialist regime.  :doge

Def cuts both ways. Like I said, I don’t think capitalism is perfect. No system is.

I’m conflicted on the claim that all white bands then cribbed from black musicians. Or at least, deliberately stole.

Back in the early rock days they would often play music they just loved. And would almost always, and I could be wrong on this, give credit for where they got that inspiration. There’s exceptions to this of course and certainly your case of racist rockstars (especially of the blues bent) like Clapton.

But I think it’s far too cynical to say that they all deliberately stole from black musicians.

I think Jimi Hendrix throws a wrench into the argument. When jimi first started playing with these bands he recorded and played covers. They all played shit they adored and placed in high esteem. The first night Jimi played with Cream he played Wolf’s Killing Floor. His first major hit was a cover called Hey Joe. All along the Watchtower. These guys liked paying tribute to artists they idolized and often would be open to where they got it from. Even to the point of inviting blues kings to the U.K. to tour to give them viable business. So if they loved Muddy Waters they’d give Muddy a bone and be like,”I got everything I know from Muddy” and have him play.

Even when they didn’t give credit, as Led Zep did with You Shook Me, the song is so dramatically different from the original that the accusation of stealing almost sounds like a stretch.

Did some white musicians steal from black musicians? Certainly. But I think this takes away from artistic process and inspiration. Or else you could say hip hop producers stole from the people they sampled from. Clearly in both cases the musicians were just inspired by the music they heard in their youth.

This is now a music thread.

When did YOU get into the blues? What happened to Mr. “I don’t get jazz?” :gladbron

I could talk about this shit all day breh.

What is your favorite blues song?

Sorry for the late reply PD. I’m at work as my partner today is being slow af. I have my numbers down because of him and have to work much harder now. Smh.
IYKYK

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #172 on: July 23, 2018, 01:42:28 PM »
You know who was a great fan of capitalism? Jesus

TVC15

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #173 on: July 23, 2018, 01:49:41 PM »
You know who was a great fan of capitalism? Jesus

Yeah, but to paraphrase a great man: I like people who weren't captured. And crucified.
serge

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #174 on: July 23, 2018, 01:53:59 PM »
You know who was a great fan of capitalism? Jesus

Yeah, but to paraphrase a great man: I like people who weren't captured. And crucified.

You mean, Donald J Trump, a disciple of Jesus who follows his teachings such as "when I get hit, I hit back twice as hard?"

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #175 on: July 23, 2018, 01:58:03 PM »
Sorry I glaze over lager posts because he’s a sad asshole of a man.

Id be sad if I didnt have everything you never will

Feels good not blame everyone and everything and just be happy man

I dont think you are capable of that

Always chasing that next thing that will "fix" you

Every fucking time you come back its the same schtick Zzzzzz

What did I come back to that will fix me this time? All I did was make a thread about why I think black panther is great.

I’m so glad you’re satisfied being a polish asshole. Scratch that, polish unemployed asshole stay at home dad last I checked.
IYKYK

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #176 on: July 23, 2018, 02:02:52 PM »
I love you added Polish and unemployed as if thats some assesment on someones character  :lol

warcock

  • Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #177 on: July 23, 2018, 02:05:32 PM »
Solaris and Stalker came out of the Soviet Union, though.

OH, there is actually a ton of great art that came out of Soviet Union. The problem is that most of it was insular, looking inward, docusing on subversion and satire of its oppressors. And some rooted in Eastern European folk culture. Like the bard movement, which were singer-songwriters using the Russian folk guitars to sublininally criticize the government. And what about Bulgakov? Vom Kriege can testify of his greatness. So much of it revolved around skirting government censure. And utilizing the intricacies and expressiveness of the Russian language. It just doesn't translate well. Many Western European musical artists made art in English to appeal to English-speaking nations. You could see how that would be a problem for Soviet Union and its imperialistic ambitions.

I guess what I am saying is that so much art from that region and time period is deeply intertwined in its own culture that a lot of it has gone under the radar. Russia's greatest poet, Pushkin is regarded as an equal to Shakespeare over there, and is credited for modernizing the Russian language. Yet he is obscure in the West.

But the idea that great art cannot and has not emerged from totalitarian regimes, let alone socialist economic structures, is preposterous.

The greatest art came through monarchies  :lawd


Come at me germanic cuntd

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #178 on: July 23, 2018, 02:06:37 PM »
I love you added Polish and unemployed and stay at home dad as if thats some assesment on someones character  :lol


I’m just learning from the best. After all according to you I’m a coon aren’t I? Fuck you.
IYKYK

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #179 on: July 23, 2018, 02:09:47 PM »
What I never said that  :lol