Author Topic: Black Panther and embracing its message  (Read 33535 times)

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agrajag

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #180 on: July 23, 2018, 02:11:26 PM »
What do you think are examples of great art? Surely you don't consider Black Panther such? Because I don't see any great work of American art as a poster child for capitalism. On the contrary, the less financial considerations are a part of the equation, the less burdened it is from profitability, the greater art becomes.

Personal gain can be just as suffocating to art as "being part of a collective." When you start figuring profits, target demographics and focus groups in art, it becomes by the numbers.

For every anecdote you bring up, there are counters. Take a look at the Soviet animation studios vs US in the 20th century. US animation was targeted mostly towards children, it was cookie cutter, with big studios like Disney and WB churning out cookie cutter animations with reused frames and characters and cheap serialized shows for easy consumption.Whereas Soviet animation wasn't always easily digestible, often abstract, tackled all sort of adult themes, even philosophy and they all had unique and inventive art styles. Not always pleasing, mind you, but creative.

In the Renaissance period, people made great pieces of art, such as paintings and cathedrals, commissioned by feudal lords. I would hesitate to give credit to monarchies for being nurturing of art. People will find a way to express themselves despite the constraints that society places upon them. And great modern artists make indie films or music, or paintings, or sculptures despite capitalist society's pressure to make a quick buck. So giving capitalism credit for an environment that fosters art is a strained comparison.

If you are such an individualist, give the individuals credit for their art, not economic structures.

Nintex

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #181 on: July 23, 2018, 02:11:45 PM »
Artists work better when they are under stress, depressed or under the fear of death.

Case in point
Quote
Van Gogh was born on March 30, 1853, in the village of Zundert in the Netherlands. He created some of his most well-known paintings, such as The Starry Night and Cafe at Night, within a two-year period before his death in July 1890. The fields he painted in Wheat Field With Crows in June were a depiction of the same location where he shot himself in the chest a month later. During his lifetime, his work had little to no value in the art world. But a century later, the first version of his Portrait of Dr. Gachet sold for $82.5 million in 1990 (around $159 million today).

Fearing you will lose your head for missing a note or drawing something that will have your family executed is a great motivation.
🤴

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #182 on: July 23, 2018, 02:12:50 PM »
I mean, fucks sake. Shosta, get your ass in here and defend your favorite composer.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #183 on: July 23, 2018, 02:20:49 PM »
Cindi is now an expert on the blues? Is there anything she hasn't mastered? :whew

The leap in expertise in music since Prince's death has been astounding  :clap :clap :clap :clap

I’ve listened to blues for years.

I never claimed to be an expert on it either. I was shooting shit with a friend.

Please go to your wrestling shack and choke on your own excrement taco.
IYKYK

Cerveza mas fina

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #184 on: July 23, 2018, 02:23:39 PM »
Is taco like nicca, its only ok to say it if you are one?

You are making a great case for christianity right now cindi, that moral compass atheist lack is on full display

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #185 on: July 23, 2018, 02:26:41 PM »
I’m not a perfect person and I never claimed to be. You never cared about Christianity to begin with. I definitely lack patience with people I don’t like. And I do not like you or Stro and I will not hide that.
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #186 on: July 23, 2018, 02:32:33 PM »
Nice come back. Did you post it in your wrestling shack? Nothing wrong with watching wrestling. But having your own shack as you jack off to your wrestling collection is another thing entirely. Which is exactly why you’re the ass hole you are.
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #187 on: July 23, 2018, 02:33:49 PM »
Here we have a dip shit who calls out someone named Cindi Mayweather about liking music exposing how much of anretard you are.

Google the name Cindi Mayweather. Oh wow. It’s a character a singer came up with. Oh you know that I’m a big music fan but you’re some nobody with a character gimmick who plopped into this forum one year ago who doesn’t know jack shit about me or this place.

You are pathetic
IYKYK

Steve Contra

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #188 on: July 23, 2018, 02:36:22 PM »
Hey guys what's up in here I really liked Michael B. Jordan's hair/mustache in BP
vin

TEEEPO

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #189 on: July 23, 2018, 02:37:06 PM »
black panther sucked

Cerveza mas fina

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #190 on: July 23, 2018, 02:38:31 PM »
I didnt watch black panther because there were no relatable characters

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #191 on: July 23, 2018, 02:39:37 PM »
I didnt watch black panther because there were no relatable characters

there was the white cia agent dude

Cerveza mas fina

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #192 on: July 23, 2018, 02:51:09 PM »
But he is anglo saxon pale

Huff

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #193 on: July 23, 2018, 02:53:59 PM »
Im just bored of marvel/super hero movies

dur

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #194 on: July 23, 2018, 03:19:59 PM »
What do you think are examples of great art? Surely you don't consider Black Panther such? Because I don't see any great work of American art as a poster child for capitalism. On the contrary, the less financial considerations are a part of the equation, the less burdened it is from profitability, the greater art becomes.

Personal gain can be just as suffocating to art as "being part of a collective." When you start figuring profits, target demographics and focus groups in art, it becomes by the numbers.

For every anecdote you bring up, there are counters. Take a look at the Soviet animation studios vs US in the 20th century. US animation was targeted mostly towards children, it was cookie cutter, with big studios like Disney and WB churning out cookie cutter animations with reused frames and characters and cheap serialized shows for easy consumption.Whereas Soviet animation wasn't always easily digestible, often abstract, tackled all sort of adult themes, even philosophy and they all had unique and inventive art styles. Not always pleasing, mind you, but creative.

In the Renaissance period, people made great pieces of art, such as paintings and cathedrals, commissioned by feudal lords. I would hesitate to give credit to monarchies for being nurturing of art. People will find a way to express themselves despite the constraints that society places upon them. And great modern artists make indie films or music, or paintings, or sculptures despite capitalist society's pressure to make a quick buck. So giving capitalism credit for an environment that fosters art is a strained comparison.

If you are such an individualist, give the individuals credit for their art, not economic structures.

That’s a good argument. I was wrong and 12337 was right in that what I said was half baked. Any excuse to shit on socialism I guess.

Nice come back. Did you post it in your wrestling shack? Nothing wrong with watching wrestling. But having your own shack as you jack off to your wrestling collection is another thing entirely. Which is exactly why you’re the ass hole you are.

Uh...what? lmao. It's been 2 days you've been back and you're already into assimilate-tier nonsense personal insults that don't even make sense. If anything I think jerking off to wrestling would be seen as a more valid reason to watch it as opposed to enjoying it for the entertainment/performance aspect  :jeanluc

Google the name Cindi Mayweather yet distinguished mentally-challenged fellow?
IYKYK

Yeti

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #195 on: July 23, 2018, 03:34:57 PM »
Hey guys what's up in here I really liked Michael B. Jordan's hair/mustache in BP

Did you know that Killmonger’s outfit resembles Vegeta’s armor because Michael B Jordan is a huge fan of Dragonball Z?

That is art
WDW

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #196 on: July 23, 2018, 03:35:54 PM »
Cindi, I think some parameters need to be set. In reality, there are only two-three people on this forum that self-identify as full-blown socialists (I guess Kara, curly, and Opti lol). The rest of us see benefits in moving society closer towards equality. Is that a bad thing?

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #197 on: July 23, 2018, 03:51:53 PM »
Cindi, I think some parameters need to be set. In reality, there are only two-three people on this forum that self-identify as full-blown socialists (I guess Kara, curly, and Opti lol). The rest of us see benefits in moving society closer towards equality. Is that a bad thing?

Kara is a communist. Shapghnam is too I think.

Not a bad thing. I want the same thing. But what about the methods? But if you think dictating speech laws via forcing people to use trans peoples pronouns counts, or affirmative action which has been shown to hurt some minorities (namely Asians) in the name of equality then is it really equality? So how do you plan on enacting this equality? Does it mean punching Nazi’s unprovoked? Or does it mean allowing illegal immigrants the ability to vote?
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #198 on: July 23, 2018, 04:07:41 PM »
I was chill until lager and stro shat up this thread and made me want to put them an rnc :brazilcry
IYKYK

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #199 on: July 23, 2018, 04:20:41 PM »
Well, I don't consider myself a socialist, but I think there is much benefit in nudging this country to the left. What I believe in is that healthcare is a human right, education shouldn't be driven by profits and that greedy corporate monsters shouldn't be allowed to leave our successors an environmental disaster. I believe people have a right to clean air, access to clean water, I believe in free speech and ability to criticise one's own government. Everyone has their own pet issues, more or less. Trying to wittle down leftist ideas to "punching nazis" or immigration is not helpful.

HardcoreRetro

  • Punk Mushi no Onna
  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #200 on: July 23, 2018, 04:20:52 PM »
*Turns on the Stro and Lager signal*

*Hides in the bushes waiting for the shitshow to unfold*

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I'm also a dirty commie, but don't tell.
[close]

HardcoreRetro

  • Punk Mushi no Onna
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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #201 on: July 23, 2018, 04:25:09 PM »
I hope Cindi still lurked so she got to see the Holodomor meltdown.

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #202 on: July 23, 2018, 04:32:35 PM »
I hope Cindi still lurked so she got to see the Holodomor meltdown.

I don't know if she would approve of et's methods (didn't she account suicide on gaf by posting porn though, or am I thinking of someone else) but based on this thread, she would agree with his crusade against Marxism.

CatsCatsCats

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #203 on: July 23, 2018, 04:35:31 PM »
I made a topic to just say hi because I didn’t want to clog up some other conversation but it got deleted for some reason I guess? I see Bork is active lol..

Anyway, good to see you around, Cindi, and I hope you are doing well

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #204 on: July 23, 2018, 04:49:46 PM »
Well, I don't consider myself a socialist, but I think there is much benefit in nudging this country to the left. What I believe in is that healthcare is a human right, education shouldn't be driven by profits and that greedy corporate monsters shouldn't be allowed to leave our successors an environmental disaster. I believe people have a right to clean air, access to clean water, I believe in free speech and ability to criticise one's own government. Everyone has their own pet issues, more or less. Trying to wittle down leftist ideas to "punching nazis" or immigration is not helpful.


I think healthcare is also a right.

I do not attribute access to good education as a value of the left but I agree it shouldn’t be tied to greed and profit.
 
The modern left devalues free speech to the point of mocking it (freeze peach). It is not a value of the left. It should be given the history of what being liberal means. But these days the left is more concerned with limiting speech and censoring their enemies.

I haven’t wittied the left down to illegal immigration and punching Nazi’s but to say they’re not relevant is disengenous given to me the left represents an authoritarianism mindset.
IYKYK

Coax

  • Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #205 on: July 23, 2018, 06:10:18 PM »
What if you're neither socialist nor capitalist but somewhere in between...

Like a centerfold


Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #206 on: July 23, 2018, 06:23:42 PM »
Cindi, I think some parameters need to be set. In reality, there are only two-three people on this forum that self-identify as full-blown socialists (I guess Kara, curly, and Opti lol). The rest of us see benefits in moving society closer towards equality. Is that a bad thing?

Kara is a communist. Shapghnam is too I think.

Not a bad thing. I want the same thing. But what about the methods? But if you think dictating speech laws via forcing people to use trans peoples pronouns counts, or affirmative action which has been shown to hurt some minorities (namely Asians) in the name of equality then is it really equality? So how do you plan on enacting this equality? Does it mean punching Nazi’s unprovoked? Or does it mean allowing illegal immigrants the ability to vote?

If certain Affirmative Action measures are having unintended consequences of hurting asians(and I would challenge this assertion if it is repeating oft cited anti-civil rights arguments) than that is an argument to correct the problem, not evidence that the whole thing is wrong and to throw the entire concept out on its ass.

Like I don’t really see why a scholarship program and accompying high school programs to encourage women to join STEM programs should be thrown out because Harvard’s admission criteria may have been biased and tilted in a way that has historically disadvantaged Asians on some criteria.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #207 on: July 23, 2018, 06:27:01 PM »
Well, I don't consider myself a socialist, but I think there is much benefit in nudging this country to the left. What I believe in is that healthcare is a human right, education shouldn't be driven by profits and that greedy corporate monsters shouldn't be allowed to leave our successors an environmental disaster. I believe people have a right to clean air, access to clean water, I believe in free speech and ability to criticise one's own government. Everyone has their own pet issues, more or less. Trying to wittle down leftist ideas to "punching nazis" or immigration is not helpful.


I think healthcare is also a right.

I do not attribute access to good education as a value of the left but I agree it shouldn’t be tied to greed and profit.
 
The modern left devalues free speech to the point of mocking it (freeze peach). It is not a value of the left. It should be given the history of what being liberal means. But these days the left is more concerned with limiting speech and censoring their enemies.

I haven’t wittied the left down to illegal immigration and punching Nazi’s but to say they’re not relevant is disengenous given to me the left represents an authoritarianism mindset.

Meanwhile the party of supposed free speech is cheering on the president for threatening to revoke the security clearances and pensions of former officials that have negative opinions(as is their constitutional right) about him and continuing to mount a highly supported(by the GOP) public pressure campaign to fine players that silently protest police brutality during the national anthem.....Just sayin

shosta

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #208 on: July 23, 2018, 06:35:56 PM »
I mean, fucks sake. Shosta, get your ass in here and defend your favorite composer.
Cindi is closest to being right, here, even if you got her to cave with the feudalism example. I've been avoiding this thread because what the internet doesn't need is the fifty trillionth thread devoted to debating "socialism" vs. "capitalism", especially when that discussion falls into the same dilettantism of failing to distinguish between command and market economies, or even correctly identifying the conditions that lead to truly flourishing arts (widespread humanism, serious tragedy, economic hardship, cross cultural pollination). But I will comment on this because this is the closest thing I have to a wheelhouse.

The Soviet system and totalitarian regimes in general are systematic destroyers of art. It suffocates everything like salt on earth. If great art is produced in such countries, it is entirely by accident or through the inhuman perseverance of geniuses who devote everything to the endeavor - in spite of the world around them. There were so many artists (among others) who were simply taken from their homes in the middle of the night and shot to death over an unmarked grave, or sent to the labor camps as punishment for being humans with thoughts. This included many of Shostakovich's closest friends. Much of his best work was formally censored or even rewritten to satisfy censors. Take his 4th symphony, which is an overwhelming tsunami of tragedy and terror, and finished just after his official denunciation for the Lady Macbeth affair. It is without a doubt once his best works but was withdrawn at the last minute under pressure from the orchestra and public officials who harrassed the conductor, and was not performed until after Stalin's death. The same goes for his 8th Symphony. His string quartets are only around because the bureaucrats didn't care about chamber music, only symphonies. Prokofiev fared even worse and almost starved to death when he was denounced. The rest of the Soviet repertoire of music besides Khachaturian is really very middling and most people who won Stalin prizes are forgettable propagandists. Don't even get me started on how bad Soviet realism is. The truth is that Russian culture is some of the best and most beautiful on planet Earth and the Soviet revolution basically put a hard stop on significant cultural development for the next century. Asking me to stand up for Shosta as a defense that great art can still be produced under communism is like saying "Didn't black people invent negro spiritual music under slavery?" It is a statement that totally slaps me upside my head.

Cuba is another good example because their music is so good, and the reason it's so good is that the government kept its hands off of it unlike what the Castro regime did to every other form of art. They actually tried to ban pop and rock music in like 1961 because it was "capitalist" but that lasted only one year before they gave up because everyone started broadcasting the Beatles illegally anyway.

By the way, most of the examples you can give of feudalism producing great art was through patronage through wealthy bankers, lords, etc. Great artists made portraiture to earn a living, Shakespeare was commissioned to write plays, and so on. The entire Renaissance was only possible via the banking revolution in Florence and Italian trade in general. I don't know how you can deny the system of private ownership that made that possible. Capitalism is inseparable from individualism, even if there are some "capitalist" countries like China and Falangist Spain.
每天生气

shosta

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #209 on: July 23, 2018, 06:38:05 PM »
this is not the best post because I wrote this under the influence of Benadryl
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thisismyusername

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #210 on: July 23, 2018, 06:47:09 PM »
Didn't read. lol.

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Learned something new.
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agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #211 on: July 23, 2018, 06:53:37 PM »
Fucks sake. No one is in support of totalitarian regimes.

You are framing it as

Socialism = totalitarian
Capitalism = liberal

Of course the Soviet regime repressed artists Shosta, I mentioned censure in my post. Yet no one was more repressed than slaves "through the inhuman perseverance of geniuses," that was the f'n point. They didn't create blues music because capitalism enabled them to do so, they were someone's property.

Quote
produced under communism is like saying "Didn't black people invent negro spiritual music under slavery?

That's literally the example Cindi uses to make her point about capitalism being great for teh arts. Were you asleep the entire thread?

Btw most of those great artists of days past you mentioned weren't wealthy or of great social stature. The fact that they produced great art was because they were inspired and brilliant human beings, that was my whole point.

Totalitarianism is by definition more restrictive, duh. I'm just not sure why you're making the same mistake as Cindi in equating policies designed to benefit the greatest amount of people to totalitarian regimes.

shosta

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #212 on: July 23, 2018, 06:56:55 PM »
Collectivist attitudes toward economics inevitably lead to collectivist attitudes toward culture. I'm not here to weigh in on whatever it is she thinks the word socialist means, especially since any idiot can Google "market socialism".
Quote
That's literally the example Cindi uses to make her point about capitalism being great for teh arts. Were you asleep the entire thread?
I hadn't read more than three posts. It's a shitty thread, why should I bother?
每天生气

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #213 on: July 23, 2018, 07:00:45 PM »
Collectivist attitudes toward economics inevitably lead to collectivist attitudes toward culture. I'm not here to weigh in on whatever it is she thinks the word socialist means.
Quote
That's literally the example Cindi uses to make her point about capitalism being great for teh arts. Were you asleep the entire thread?
I hadn't read more than three posts. It's a shitty thread, why should I bother?

It's not a zero sum game, as I tried to explain to her, and now have to explain to you. Art is not going to disappear if you give people free education.

shosta

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #214 on: July 23, 2018, 07:01:50 PM »
Look, I don't know what this thread is about, and I don't want to know.
每天生气

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #215 on: July 23, 2018, 07:08:35 PM »
You didn't say they were the creations of capitalism, true. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that capitalism led to major benefits for the BLACK creators of those genres. Did capitalism help...Howlin Wolf get more shows in the 60s and 70s? Sure. But capitalism also ensured the blues (and rock) were effectively pillaged by white artists who earned far more money off it than the black creators. Not to mention the (white) record label culture vultures who swooped in and bought the rights to a lot of that music.

In terms of these things only being capable in a capitalist society...gonna need evidence of that. Because all those genres were created under the worst possible environment for people (slavery and jim crow). If you can create and enjoy art while slaves, I'm pretty sure you could do the same under a socialist regime.  :doge

Def cuts both ways. Like I said, I don’t think capitalism is perfect. No system is.

I’m conflicted on the claim that all white bands then cribbed from black musicians. Or at least, deliberately stole.

Back in the early rock days they would often play music they just loved. And would almost always, and I could be wrong on this, give credit for where they got that inspiration. There’s exceptions to this of course and certainly your case of racist rockstars (especially of the blues bent) like Clapton.

But I think it’s far too cynical to say that they all deliberately stole from black musicians.

I think Jimi Hendrix throws a wrench into the argument. When jimi first started playing with these bands he recorded and played covers. They all played shit they adored and placed in high esteem. The first night Jimi played with Cream he played Wolf’s Killing Floor. His first major hit was a cover called Hey Joe. All along the Watchtower. These guys liked paying tribute to artists they idolized and often would be open to where they got it from. Even to the point of inviting blues kings to the U.K. to tour to give them viable business. So if they loved Muddy Waters they’d give Muddy a bone and be like,”I got everything I know from Muddy” and have him play.

Even when they didn’t give credit, as Led Zep did with You Shook Me, the song is so dramatically different from the original that the accusation of stealing almost sounds like a stretch.

Did some white musicians steal from black musicians? Certainly. But I think this takes away from artistic process and inspiration. Or else you could say hip hop producers stole from the people they sampled from. Clearly in both cases the musicians were just inspired by the music they heard in their youth.

This is now a music thread.

When did YOU get into the blues? What happened to Mr. “I don’t get jazz?” :gladbron

I could talk about this shit all day breh.

What is your favorite blues song?

Sorry for the late reply PD. I’m at work as my partner today is being slow af. I have my numbers down because of him and have to work much harder now. Smh.

Not all white bands, but it would be hard to deny that many of the major bands of the time were ripping stuff from black artists. Especially riffs. Not to mention the British Invasion and Elvis. The capitalism argument comes into play here because most of the black innovators were ignored or didn't make much money from what they created. This isn't unique to rock/blues. Hell look at the money EDM "DJs" make off gentrified house music, compared to the black creators (many of whom were gay). Or how faux celeb DJs might get paid to host a party at the same rate as actual DJs like Kid Capri or Jazzy Jeff.

I've always liked jazz music, my issue was moreso I didn't dive into certain areas/subgenres of it initially.

The counter to my argument btw is not just Jimi Hendrix, it's all those blues player. If you go back, it's clear Mick Jagger and all the white rockers revered blues players. Some even helped them tour, got them deals, etc. The white rockers benefited from how our society and economy worked, but I wouldn't call most of them exploitive in the sense that they were racists who fucked over black artists. The system did that. And they benefited from the system. And that system is capitalism.
:yeshrug



All those dudes loved Hendrix, BB King, Howlin Wolf etc. And as I said, some of those black artists benefited by gaining new (white fans), whereas black fans had moved on to other genres of music.
010

warcock

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #216 on: July 23, 2018, 07:29:11 PM »
this is not the best post because I wrote this under the influence of Benadryl



Pls dont do dis

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #217 on: July 23, 2018, 07:29:24 PM »
IDK, reading your statement Shosta and I think you are basically coming down on the side of a lot of the people arguing her despite claiming she is closest to being right.....Or falling down the same hole.

As you also seem to understand, Stalinism/Leninism =/= Socialism. What Cindi is really looking at(or was since she seems to have walked it back a bit) is totalitarianism/authoritarianism vs liberalized and relatively democratic mixed economies. Interestingly she herself has basically inferred to agreeing with where most American democratic socialists see solutions to the same identified problems. There just seems to be a gap in successfully reconciling that.

To me the better argument for Cindi would of been what you(I think) said, that authoritarian/totalitarian/monarchy governments are often(but not always) very stifling toward broad artistic expression. Which is not really a controversial statement. What gets the pushback is trying to mislabel or conflate authoritarian/totalitarian with democratic socialism or more modern Marxism. Then using those few examples to make overstatements like she was doing about art and socialism, when arguably those generalizations don't even apply to the places being incorrectly singled out.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #218 on: July 23, 2018, 07:51:06 PM »
You didn't say they were the creations of capitalism, true. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that capitalism led to major benefits for the BLACK creators of those genres. Did capitalism help...Howlin Wolf get more shows in the 60s and 70s? Sure. But capitalism also ensured the blues (and rock) were effectively pillaged by white artists who earned far more money off it than the black creators. Not to mention the (white) record label culture vultures who swooped in and bought the rights to a lot of that music.

In terms of these things only being capable in a capitalist society...gonna need evidence of that. Because all those genres were created under the worst possible environment for people (slavery and jim crow). If you can create and enjoy art while slaves, I'm pretty sure you could do the same under a socialist regime.  :doge

Def cuts both ways. Like I said, I don’t think capitalism is perfect. No system is.

I’m conflicted on the claim that all white bands then cribbed from black musicians. Or at least, deliberately stole.

Back in the early rock days they would often play music they just loved. And would almost always, and I could be wrong on this, give credit for where they got that inspiration. There’s exceptions to this of course and certainly your case of racist rockstars (especially of the blues bent) like Clapton.

But I think it’s far too cynical to say that they all deliberately stole from black musicians.

I think Jimi Hendrix throws a wrench into the argument. When jimi first started playing with these bands he recorded and played covers. They all played shit they adored and placed in high esteem. The first night Jimi played with Cream he played Wolf’s Killing Floor. His first major hit was a cover called Hey Joe. All along the Watchtower. These guys liked paying tribute to artists they idolized and often would be open to where they got it from. Even to the point of inviting blues kings to the U.K. to tour to give them viable business. So if they loved Muddy Waters they’d give Muddy a bone and be like,”I got everything I know from Muddy” and have him play.

Even when they didn’t give credit, as Led Zep did with You Shook Me, the song is so dramatically different from the original that the accusation of stealing almost sounds like a stretch.

Did some white musicians steal from black musicians? Certainly. But I think this takes away from artistic process and inspiration. Or else you could say hip hop producers stole from the people they sampled from. Clearly in both cases the musicians were just inspired by the music they heard in their youth.

This is now a music thread.

When did YOU get into the blues? What happened to Mr. “I don’t get jazz?” :gladbron

I could talk about this shit all day breh.

What is your favorite blues song?

Sorry for the late reply PD. I’m at work as my partner today is being slow af. I have my numbers down because of him and have to work much harder now. Smh.

Not all white bands, but it would be hard to deny that many of the major bands of the time were ripping stuff from black artists. Especially riffs. Not to mention the British Invasion and Elvis. The capitalism argument comes into play here because most of the black innovators were ignored or didn't make much money from what they created. This isn't unique to rock/blues. Hell look at the money EDM "DJs" make off gentrified house music, compared to the black creators (many of whom were gay). Or how faux celeb DJs might get paid to host a party at the same rate as actual DJs like Kid Capri or Jazzy Jeff.

I've always liked jazz music, my issue was moreso I didn't dive into certain areas/subgenres of it initially.

The counter to my argument btw is not just Jimi Hendrix, it's all those blues player. If you go back, it's clear Mick Jagger and all the white rockers revered blues players. Some even helped them tour, got them deals, etc. The white rockers benefited from how our society and economy worked, but I wouldn't call most of them exploitive in the sense that they were racists who fucked over black artists. The system did that. And they benefited from the system. And that system is capitalism.
:yeshrug



All those dudes loved Hendrix, BB King, Howlin Wolf etc. And as I said, some of those black artists benefited by gaining new (white fans), whereas black fans had moved on to other genres of music.

I still disagree. Yeah. Black artists had their shit sped over and over. But I don’t think it’s fair to call that the fault of capitalism. Like you said, it’s not like the white artists went out to deliberately steal from the black artists. Pretty much all of them like you and I both said tended to lift up their idols and had no qualms about where they got their inspiration. Rolling Stones would point blank say,”we are big fans of BB!”

How is it capitalism’s fault that music was segregated? That’s the consequence of a lot of this music we are talking about. A lot of these artists couldn’t play to white audiences because the US system wouldn’t let them. Jimi couldn’t make it in America because he was black but played rock. So black stations wouldn’t play him  cuz he didn’t make soul and white stations wouldn’t play him because he was black. Why couldn’t these blues masters make money and were obscure? Because the law said they couldn’t play in white venues. But the law isn’t capitalism. It’s the economic system.

Or what about after disco left the pop charts? At that point music was segregated into different genres in the pop charts and you didn’t have a single black musician in top of the pop charts for nearly three or four years until Michael Jackson made Billie Jean a single. But is that a symptom of capitalism or just good ol fashion racism? MTV refused to play black artists because of this genre divide. Again, is that capitalism? This is where it gets shaky. And yet capitalism allowed Michael to blossom and this allowed more black artists than ever to diservify and have a music voice in the mainstream. So which is it, PD? Capitalism bad? Capitalism good? Or is it just a system that can be used for both?

I think you’re making the mistake that I used to. I think you’re wrongfully attributing any act of racism or exploitation of black people as capitalism as if we are a socialist nation equivalent. Like, how can you keep blaming capitalism when you admit dudes like BB King were able to make bank across the pond when UK itself is a capitalist society? It’s like you’re acting like that social forces of America exist within the vacuum of capitalism when it should be obvious why these musicians could make it abroad and not America and it sure  ain’t cuz of capitalism.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 08:16:39 PM by Cindi Mayweather »
IYKYK

shosta

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #219 on: July 23, 2018, 07:51:24 PM »
IDK, reading your statement Shosta ...
iirc this whole thing started because Cindi tried to convert Kara, and then Kara made a good bike joke, and then Cindi tried to find someone else to fight with
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Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #220 on: July 23, 2018, 07:56:09 PM »
I got serious problems when people - especially blacks people - claim that all these U.K. dudes did was just steal from black musicians as if they were just evil racist shit heads which is how I initially interpreted your first post.

Also iirc you didn’t like jazz that had lots of improvisation.
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Nola

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #221 on: July 23, 2018, 08:21:05 PM »
You can't have it both ways Cindi, you can't credit capitalism for the positive proliferation of America's diverse music scene because it happened to occur under it's broad umbrella and then ignore the shitty racist stuff that also happened under its purview, often strengthened and solidified by its direct dynamics.







Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #222 on: July 23, 2018, 08:28:11 PM »
You can't have it both ways Cindi, you can't credit capitalism for the positive proliferation of America's diverse music scene because it happened to occur under it's broad umbrella and then ignore the shitty racist stuff that also happened under its purview, often strengthened and solidified by its direct dynamics.

That’s fair. But I’m separating capitalism from Jim Crow segregation and also radio segregation. So in my mind they’re completely different because nothing was stopping some white boy or girl from listening to James Brown when they got the same radio waves. Capitalism allowed that shit to exist. But it’s not capitalism’s fault man decided to segregate something as holy and beautiful as getting down (tm).

But beyond that conceit....you’re right.
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Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #223 on: July 23, 2018, 08:34:34 PM »
Also Nola I will respond to your other very good posts when I get home. Three hours left till I finish that 12 hour shift. :brazilcry

I take back everything good I said about capitalism.

J/k
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Nola

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #224 on: July 23, 2018, 08:45:40 PM »


That’s fair. But I’m separating capitalism from Jim Crow segregation and also radio segregation. So in my mind they’re completely different because nothing was stopping some white boy or girl from listening to James Brown when they got the same radio waves. Capitalism allowed that shit to exist. But it’s not capitalism’s fault man decided to segregate something as holy and beautiful as getting down (tm).

The basic structure of capitalism as most would define it also theoretically(and has in practice) allows white owners in a town where most of the wealth is owned by white people to freeze out credit, service, and good paying jobs to minorities, and use that framework to take discrimination and hardcode it into an indefinite disadvantage for a group of people....Capitalism also allows that shit to exist.

I guess the point I am trying to get across is that yes, I agree, on the one hand the capitalist structure(again, in the broad sense) provides a framework that can allow a person to profit off the creation of their artistry. Which is one way(amongst many I would argue) to incentivize and proliferate the spread and evolution of art. However, those same frameworks can also hardcode racism and inequality in a society, Like PD pointed out.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 09:25:34 PM by Nola »

Himu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #225 on: July 23, 2018, 09:11:24 PM »
 NOLA:

:obama

I can go with that.
 
Capitalism can say,”kids pleas buy this black mans art” but also “kids please don’t ever purchase black peoples art, they will lead you to the devil”.

So systems are neutral. And can be used as tools: for good or for bad.

I think the main sticking point is our take on socialism and how it fares as a tool. I agree with Shasta McNasty when he said collectivist economy leads to collectivist culture so I obviously think it’s a pretty limited tool.

That said I couldn’t entirely say all of socialism is bad because I really like weekends and eight hour days and the idea of retirement and UHC. So I like that stuff. But when it comes to the collectivist ideas and strong arming people to fall to group peer pressure to share the same attitudes and values is when it turns me off.

So I was wrong to shit on socialism because I know more than anyone why it has appeal and that (most) socialists ultimately have their heart in the right place.

So there’s that. :yeshrug

I just like to double down and be a stubborn blow hard. Kek.
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agrajag

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #226 on: July 23, 2018, 09:18:14 PM »
Cindi, socialism is all around us. Socialist ideas are ingrained in our capitalist society that you cherish. It's just a matter of how far we go with them.

Lawrence O'Donell is kind of a blowhard tool and I normally wouldn't link to him, but he nevertheless very elegantly explained this on C-Span:


shosta

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #227 on: July 23, 2018, 09:24:52 PM »

In Italian, scherzo means "joke", but the only joke here is life itself.
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Crash Dummy

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #228 on: July 24, 2018, 02:02:03 AM »
wait kara is a socialist?

Mandark

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #229 on: July 24, 2018, 02:07:03 AM »
wait kara is a socialist?

Crash Dummy
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Get with it, man!

Crash Dummy

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #230 on: July 24, 2018, 02:46:07 AM »
he will always be a fellow tax professional to me!

Cerveza mas fina

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #231 on: July 24, 2018, 04:28:34 AM »
Wait so now himuro is for a lot of socialist things like healthcare

Thats a new record for flip flopping

Oblivion

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #232 on: July 24, 2018, 04:57:17 AM »
"So what was the breaking point that led you to realize the Left had finally gone too far?"

"When some college kids got mad at Richard Spencer for coming to their campus to argue in favor of ethnic cleansing"
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 05:33:01 AM by Oblivion »

benjipwns

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #233 on: July 24, 2018, 05:06:24 AM »

curly

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #234 on: July 24, 2018, 05:10:39 AM »
or even correctly identifying the conditions that lead to truly flourishing arts (widespread humanism, serious tragedy, economic hardship, cross cultural pollination).

objection

the conditions that lead to a flourishing of any particular type of art are way too fine grain to reduce to these sort of basal factors. To speak on my particular wheelhouse, noteworthy periods of film production have more to do with much more specific conditions of production within a particular nation's industry, mass media consumption habits, small groups of talented filmmakers forming up and influencing each other, etc. Yeah broad causes matter but when you try to delineate them or God forbid create a formula you're just backing yourself into a corner.

To take the Soviet example, yes Tarkovsky had a horrible relationship with the authorities but he is far from an example of a unique genius who overcame the unfortunate location of his birth, in fact he is very much a Soviet filmmaker and especially their system of film education. The Soviet Institute of Cinematographer produced really incredible directors and cinematographers, ones far less known than Tarkovsky, that in craft represent the peak of cinema. The only problem with Andrei Rublev is that it's almost too perfect, to paraphrase one of our great art critics. And Tarkovsky is far from a lone talent in an otherwise barren landscape. Give me The Ascent over any American movie made since.

Or for an example from the capitalist world the Japanese new wave made some of the boldest avant garde films ever in part because of all that shit we all know about the 60s but just as much because Japanese movie studios were desperate because they were losing money to TV and made the most inexplicable business decision of all time and hired a bunch of freaks who were sick of how nice Ozu made Japanese society seem.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 05:20:25 AM by curly »

VomKriege

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #235 on: July 24, 2018, 05:27:26 AM »
I'm barging in without having read the topic so please disregard but Marxism, for better and for worse, has had a huge impetus on arts, sciences (especially humanities) and academics. Fascism did too to an extent. To just boil down things to "socialism" = "totalitarian" = "stifling intelligence" is a bit ridiculous. I'd much rather live where I did than in the USSR or the PRC but let's not be dumb.

You can argue Marxism is of its time, partly or wholly obsolete, overtly "positivist" or "scientific" but it did infuse a rational duty and healthy self examination in many fields.

Quote
Or for an example from the capitalist world the Japanese new wave made some of the boldest avant garde films ever in part because of all that shit we all know about the 60s but just as much because Japanese movie studios were desperate because they were losing money to TV and made the most inexplicable business decision of all time and hired a bunch of freaks who were sick of how nice Ozu made Japanese society seem.

And some ended up blacklisted for it by the studio cartel. Freedom !
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 05:32:49 AM by VomKriege »
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warcock

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #236 on: July 24, 2018, 05:34:18 AM »
We stole soviet space rocket engine tech in the 21st century.

MMaRsu

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #237 on: July 24, 2018, 06:37:19 AM »
I havent seen BP because I'm not really interested in a political message when watching a marvel movie.
What

benjipwns

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #238 on: July 24, 2018, 07:06:15 AM »
It's not really political. It's much like the description of The Winter Soldier as a "political thriller" by fans. Thor: Ragnarok could be considered to have a political message if you wanted it to. Or Doctor Strange.

Crash Dummy

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Re: Black Panther and embracing its message
« Reply #239 on: July 24, 2018, 07:12:45 AM »
Wait so now himuro is for a lot of socialist things like healthcare

Thats a new record for flip flopping
she's christian i gather from this thread, healthcare seems to be pretty compatible with christian values no?