Author Topic: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.  (Read 226129 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1680 on: March 07, 2020, 09:36:33 PM »
finished reading, good read, last bits a bit head spinning
why are commies so bleak, buncha doomers

while researching bits, articles that I would've not raised an eyebrow at now do so

https://reason.com/2018/07/27/sorry-if-youre-offended-but-socialism-le/

Quote
But none of them admit that capitalism has been the most effective way to eliminate poverty in history. Today, in former socialist states like India, there have been big reductions in poverty thanks to increased capitalism. In China, where communism sadly still deprives more than a billion people of their basic rights, hundreds of millions benefit from a system that is slowly shedding socialism. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, the extreme poverty rate in the world has been cut in half. And it didn't happen because Southeast Asians were raising the minimum wage.

https://mises.org/wire/4-reasons-why-socialism-becoming-more-popular

Quote
The more reason we give anyone to think that capitalism means crony capitalism, the more they’ll clamor for socialism.

https://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/socialism-elections-liberty-freedom/

Quote
investors.com

 :putin

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1681 on: March 08, 2020, 04:52:04 AM »
Funnily enough, I thought the USSR was cool back in high school and thought communism was neat. Then I grew out of it afterwards and began to extol capitalism/free-market/normal stuff as being free/moral. And now I'm going :thinking about the Soviets all over again.
Time is a flat circle and all...

Tripon

  • Teach by day, Sleep by night
  • Senior Member
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 12:27:47 PM by Tripon »

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1683 on: March 08, 2020, 08:19:14 PM »
H Section huh  :shaq

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1684 on: March 08, 2020, 09:10:40 PM »
I got other stuff to do but am now reading Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds instead since that meme from above.

God, this book absolutely bangs and I'm only like 20 pages in :noah
I'm learning so much so fast, socdems screwing over the left in the end to support fascists, fascists being capitalist dogs, red scare goes back 100 years (fuck you russiangaters)
Why can't the other dorky droners be this riveting, this author rules.

Crash Dummy

  • teleiophile
  • Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1685 on: March 09, 2020, 04:00:25 AM »
you're having way too much fun for this thread, read this next it'll bring you back down:
Quote
(Image removed from quote.)

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1686 on: March 09, 2020, 03:31:34 PM »
Now a pragmatic look at what shaped the USSR, critique of the cowardly ideal socialism looks like blah-blah, a sobering look at human nature (one of the biggest sticking points I've always thought about when it came to communism)

This book is literally everything I wanted, it's art. It's a marvelous marxist masterpiece.  :ussrcry :lawd
Thank you Esch.  :bow2

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1687 on: March 09, 2020, 06:44:27 PM »
Finished reading, beautiful. Shit makes the soul tingle for class war. Will read more of him later.
I've actually got an idea about what fascism really is after being confused about it due to internet discourse.
10/10 would actually recommend this book to other people. 

tfw you were born after the USSR ended :fbm

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1688 on: March 09, 2020, 06:56:21 PM »
read To Kill A Nation next if you want the most contrarian take ever made

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Bore's Law :lawd
[close]
每天生气

curly

  • cultural maoist
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1689 on: March 09, 2020, 08:20:40 PM »
Working my way through Imperialism in the 21st Century and I'm enjoying it but I'm struggling with how Smith differentiates productive and nonproductive labor.

Quote
It may be asked, are not these non-productive activities providing “common goods” necessary for the reproduction of society? Shaikh and Tonak provide a cogent response: “To say that these labors indirectly result in the creation of this wealth is only another way of saying that they are necessary. Consumption also indirectly results in production, as production indirectly results in consumption. But this hardly obviates the need for distinguishing between the two.”77 To see the veracity of this argument, consider an economy made up of laborers and security guards.78 The laborers produce all of the goods that both they and the security guards need to live on; the security guards provide a “common good,” security. it is plain that the higher the ratio of security guards to laborers, all other things being equal, the lower the total product, and it is therefore logical to regard this economic activity as unproductive labor, a form of social consumption.

But if you reduce the number of security guards, and more of the goods the laborers produce are stolen, or eaten by wild animals during the night, then doesn't that lower total product? Are theft and waste counted as consumption? And say you have an overseer, who whips the laborers from time to time to make them go faster. If you converted him into a laborer, that could conceivably lead to lower total product; does that make whipping the laborers a productive activity?

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1690 on: March 09, 2020, 08:51:19 PM »
Yeah, among the things I got tripped up over at times were things like his deliberation on productive work. When I was reading his bit on explaining how transporting goods falls under the purview of productive it felt odd as it seemed entirely intuitive to consider transport productive and more so he was convincing himself.


benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1692 on: March 10, 2020, 01:44:29 AM »
I've actually got an idea about what fascism really is after being confused about it due to internet discourse.
Go straight to the source breh: http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm

No, like seriously, it's a short read and it always amazes me how often no one ever reads it or sources it when talking about fascism. Not to harp on her since she's on our alt-right hate side now but it's just one of the more prominent examples, when Contrapoints did her big fascism video that made her famous it was clear that she had never read anything academic on fascism, and even worse in my opinion had never actually read the original sources of fascist ideology.

Fascism is a very interesting ideology because it was constructed on the fly bringing together a whole bunch of existing currents and it was suppose to make heavily rational sense. To continue harping on others doing things wrong (:rage), the inclusion of or use of Nazism in place of fascism has always sowed confusion because the Nazis mostly went "hey, yeah, we'll do this because everyone is, but what about those Jews huh? and German superiority? and where's the party about dominating the globe?" to where the fascist adherents of the time felt this uncultured schlub from Austria was smearing his feces all over their intellectual movement. Like Trump and the beauty and purity that was the global conservative movement.

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1693 on: March 10, 2020, 01:57:38 AM »
when repubs and dems call each other the actual fascists, you can't help but lose all track of what words mean

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1694 on: March 10, 2020, 02:09:04 AM »
Fascism is a very interesting ideology

okay benji :smug

shit, my bad, I meant to edit that in not make a new post

:stahp

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1695 on: March 10, 2020, 02:22:57 AM »
I mean in terms of how it came about, it was almost literally Mussolini going "I need a new ideology, someone help me make one!" He wasn't say, reinterpreting socialism to actually mean his conclusions or whatever. Almost every other ideology is backwards labeled, generally after the person is dead, not constructed on the fly with all the trappings of actually being a new ideology and with the lead persons trying to fit every form of philosophy or thought into it as they construct it. Gadhaffi's whole thing was similar.

And if you dare think this sounds like Objectivism well...

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1696 on: March 10, 2020, 02:30:43 AM »
Yeah, reading it is kind of funny. What it says on the tin not what you get at all.

Quote
Fascism is likewise opposed to trade unionism as a class weapon. But when brought within the orbit of the State, Fascism recognizes the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which divergent interests are coordinated and harmonized in the unity of the State (16).

:lol

Half of this reads like a self-help/motivational post especially by those shrewd grifter gurus, I could probably get random liberal-leaning people to repost this stuff because of the marketing-style word salad.
Like I could easily get some lefty on my feed to reshare this, especially one of the people getting into Stoicism which seems to be a recent hotness.

Quote
Fascism wants man to be active and to engage in action with all his energies; it wants him to be manfully aware of the difficulties besetting him and ready to face them. It conceives of life as a struggle in which it behooves a man to win for himself a really worthy place, first of all by fitting himself (physically, morally, intellectually) to become the implement required for winning it. As for the individual, so for the nation, and so for mankind (4). Hence the high value of culture in all its forms (artistic, religious, scientific) (5) and the outstanding importance of education. Hence also the essential value of work, by which man subjugates nature and creates the human world (economic, political, ethical, and intellectual).
Well, sans the one word fascism of course

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1697 on: March 10, 2020, 02:33:55 AM »
The remaining point of course being how the state needs to fuck your ass and how you'll benefit from it. If you live.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1698 on: March 10, 2020, 02:43:50 AM »
The spiritual stuff about how only Fascism can give your soul meaning is my favorite stuff, I always forget the name of the longer book Mussolini had ghostwritten about that, oh, and also this from the paragraph before your quote:
Quote
the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity (11). It is opposed to classical liberalism which arose as a reaction to absolutism and exhausted its historical function when the State became the expression of the conscience and will of the people. Liberalism denied the State in the name of the individual; Fascism reasserts the rights of the State as expressing the real essence of the individual (12). And if liberty is to he the attribute of living men and not of abstract dummies invented by individualistic liberalism, then Fascism stands for liberty, and for the only liberty worth having, the liberty of the State and of the individual within the State (13). The Fascist conception of the State is all embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism, is totalitarian, and the Fascist  State  - a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values - interprets, develops, and potentates the whole life of a people (14).

No individuals or groups (political parties, cultural associations, economic unions, social classes) outside the State (15).
:klob

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1699 on: March 10, 2020, 02:48:56 AM »
Quote
Fascism stands for liberty, and for the only liberty worth having, the liberty of the State
If only we had an emote for that one, one of the crying+flag ones. 
:japancry
Japan will have to do.

And obviously, touting bravery and all sorts of things supposedly connected to war such as nobility, duty, fighting spirit coming from an Italian. :dead

jakefromstatefarm

  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1700 on: March 10, 2020, 03:19:47 AM »
in my head canon ‘fascism’ is only used to describe mussolini’s italy and other far right movements of the 20s 30s and 40s to the extent theyre similar. like i’d even prefer exclusively using ‘nazism’ to describe germany instead of calling it ‘fascism’. it’s nice to have a catch-all term for the part of the far right that isn’t throne and altar counter revolution, but its ultimately definitely a family resemblance kind of a thing, not a discrete set of first principles. im also not terribly convinced whatever intellectual content is there isn’t an after thought*

*as in, the global sense of ‘fascism’, not when it’s narrowly used in the italian context

BisMarckie

  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1701 on: March 10, 2020, 04:57:16 AM »
I wrote a paper as an undergrad about why German national socialism isn’t congruent with fascism, so I consider myself an expert on that topic.


Especially since I fudged my citations from wikipedia.

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1702 on: March 10, 2020, 10:44:42 AM »
I think the broader view of fascism as a human inclination which persists forever is still useful... Umberto Eco's famous essay is quite good

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism

So I'm not annoyed so much when someone says "that's fascist".
每天生气

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1703 on: March 10, 2020, 02:54:17 PM »
I think the broader view of fascism as a human inclination which persists forever is still useful... Umberto Eco's famous essay is quite good

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism

So I'm not annoyed so much when someone says "that's fascist".

Pretty good read.
I feel "capitalism in decay" and observing the trajectory of fascist governments in terms of state and big money collusion gives you a strong feel for what role it plays.

The afterthought though, as Jake put it, I don't feel you can entirely discredit it. It plays a vital role of drawing in the disaffected by capitalism masses and promises them (falsely) a better life.
It contributes alongside intentional media disinformation to a romantization of sorts of fascism. That somehow it will give the hopeless a purpose, the eternal campaign against communism instills a distinctive knee-jerk to avoid going down a Marxian path. Which leaves a fascist path instead for the lost.

This is of course entirely acceptable by certain people in power.

jakefromstatefarm

  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1704 on: March 10, 2020, 03:39:56 PM »
yeah i mean, we can definitely give a rational reconstruction of it; i think if anything is fundamentally characteristic of it its a rejection of liberal pluralism. all i mean to say is that, when we try to dig underneath those characteristics, at bottom, they rest on kneejerk revulsion, not argument. like, theres no rawls of fascism. paxton describes it as an appeal to the passions at the expense of reason, and i think thats borne out when we look at who could possibly qualify as the rawls of fascism: schmitt and gentile are pretty clear that their whole shtick is legitimizing -under certain conditions, some more, some less extensive- the suspension of reciprocal respect for persons in order to assert raw, naked will to power. that is intellectually interesting but its not really intellectually defensible. its more like an admission that your interlocutor doesnt give a shit about engaging you in good faith.


jakefromstatefarm

  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1706 on: March 10, 2020, 03:52:27 PM »
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism
huh, didn’t realize how much my last couple posts...echo Eco :dice

i’ve seen plenty of chapo types shit on this piece but it’s way better than they’d lead you to believe

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1707 on: March 10, 2020, 03:53:59 PM »
I've never heard anyone shit on that piece (which I got from sphagnum, pbuh), what's the gist of the criticism?
每天生气

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1708 on: March 10, 2020, 04:17:37 PM »
just realized that benji getting pedantic about what the word fascism refers to comes from the same place as him getting mad about the modern use of the word "corporatism" :heh
每天生气

jakefromstatefarm

  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1709 on: March 10, 2020, 04:43:19 PM »
I've never heard anyone shit on that piece (which I got from sphagnum, pbuh), what's the gist of the criticism?
ah, fuck i cant find the thread. iirc it was too idealist for them? as i google around for it im turning up more posts on the sub that are warm to it than posts that arent, so i guess i just stumbled on the three people who didnt like it.

re: esch; theres definitely a certain kind of irrationalism at work in fascist discourse, but id hesitate to call it irrationalism tout court. the worst part of the eco essay is where he ascribes to it a rejection of modernism. fascists (and tradcaths, and paleocons, and anprims) can say theyre turning back the clock, but theyre still practicing mass party politics, a paradigmatic feature of modernity. and i just dont think history works in that way, whatever move an historical actor makes is gonna be necessarily stamped by the time in which theyre acting. even negative moves end up affirming things left implicit.

coincidentally, i just finished up william doyle’s account of the french revolution where he makes the obvious claim that there isn’t any interpretation of the revolution that doesnt cleanly track some political programme or other, not only because everything under the sun has already been written about 1789, and the terror, and the 18th brumaire, but more centrally because the french revolution is the originary event of modern politics. doyle himself calls it a ‘tragedy’ while admiring the constitution of 1791 (and shirking at the constitution of 1793), in no small part because he’s exercising the perennial liberal revulsion towards violence.

Great Rumbler

  • Dab on the sinners
  • Global Moderator
dog

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
每天生气


OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1713 on: March 10, 2020, 07:31:24 PM »





OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1714 on: March 10, 2020, 08:35:47 PM »
not surprised at hitting the woman, alt-righters really dislike women alongside jews, and non-whites

but yeah, I'm familiar with the alt-right sphere
their delusions about hitler and fascism somehow being free from greed and for the good of the people :neogaf

Joe Molotov

  • I'm much more humble than you would understand.
  • Administrator
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1715 on: March 10, 2020, 08:37:56 PM »
not surprised at hitting the woman, alt-righters really dislike women alongside jews, and non-whites

https://twitter.com/iginister/status/1237097139853017089
©@©™

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1716 on: March 10, 2020, 09:34:32 PM »
for you commies and weebs

https://twitter.com/yuricommunism


Tripon

  • Teach by day, Sleep by night
  • Senior Member

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1719 on: March 11, 2020, 12:15:18 AM »
I think most people aren't familiar with the Cultural Revolution :idont
每天生气

Tripon

  • Teach by day, Sleep by night
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1720 on: March 11, 2020, 12:27:59 AM »
I think most people aren't familiar with the Cultural Revolution :idont

You learn about the Cultural Revolution as part of World History. Admittedly it's at the end of the year after you get though World War II, (you might get to the end of the 20th century if your teacher is good at pacing). So I suppose there's a decent chance of not covering the Cultural Revolution. My point is that these guys can't even make the facil argument that China isn't a 'failed state' today because of neoliberal market reforms.

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1721 on: March 11, 2020, 12:44:33 AM »
You learned about the cultural revolution in a world history course? Why? :heh
每天生气

Tripon

  • Teach by day, Sleep by night
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1722 on: March 11, 2020, 12:49:55 AM »
You learned about the cultural revolution in a world history course? Why? :heh

Didn't you go to a CA high school? It's part of the state standards.

Quote
The Cold War grew in intensity as the Soviet Union developed atomic weapons
in an effort to catch up militarily to the U.S. An arms race continued for decades,
as the superpowers competed over advancements in nuclear weapons technology.
After a long civil war, communists, led by Mao Zedong, came to power in China,
expanding the geographic scope of the Cold War. The presence of communist
China complicated the earlier bipolar Cold War world, as tensions developed
between the two communist powers. The Great Leap Forward (1958–1961) and the
Cultural Revolution (1966–1976) caused massive turmoil in China. Students should
learn about the unrest and disorder in China during these years; elites were made
to work on farms; revolutionary justice was arbitrarily applied; and the Red Guard
even turned on members of Mao’s own party.
The question How was the Cold War waged all over the world? can continue
to frame students’ understanding of the Chinese experience. Moreover, if students
learn about the ascent of communism in China in the middle of the twentieth
century, the groundwork will be laid for their understanding of its later status
when its markets opened, but its political system did not.

https://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/hs/cf/documents/hssfwchapter15.pdf

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Students don't really go into this unless you're in an AP class. 
[close]

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1723 on: March 11, 2020, 12:53:11 AM »
I was in IB, we played fast and loose with state standards :doge

I think I also might have satisfied that requirement with Geography instead? I can't remember.
每天生气

jakefromstatefarm

  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1724 on: March 11, 2020, 12:55:45 AM »
Quote
Young people are supporting the failed ideology at an astronomical rate and it's because of our education system.
in a way, hes not wrong :idont

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1725 on: March 11, 2020, 01:12:42 AM »
on the subject of china, so what the hell kind of country/government are they really?
I'm a bit confused where on the spectrum they lie, communists stand with them but I thought they looked state capitalist or something

this dude say yes AF

https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/01/03/5-myths-about-the-chinese-communist-party/
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 02:05:49 AM by OnlyRegret »

jakefromstatefarm

  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1726 on: March 11, 2020, 01:13:23 AM »
wow that high school curriculum is like, deliberately designed to choke out critical reassessments of modern history. are the essays that just regurgitate boring liberal agitprop the ones that get 5s?

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1727 on: March 11, 2020, 01:20:12 AM »
... is it? We read Howard Zinn in US history :idont
每天生气

Mandark

  • Icon
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1728 on: March 11, 2020, 01:36:21 AM »
wow that high school curriculum is like, deliberately designed to choke out critical reassessments of modern history. are the essays that just regurgitate boring liberal agitprop the ones that get 5s?

p sure that the biggest correlation with getting a 5 on an ap exam is just writing lots of words

Great Rumbler

  • Dab on the sinners
  • Global Moderator
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1729 on: March 11, 2020, 09:22:00 AM »
https://twitter.com/CalebJHull/status/1237584835394203649

They never heard about China?  :doge

Caleb Hull: Socialism is bad and always fails! Young people need to learn how bad it is! Also, all these countries they keep bringing up aren't even socialist!

Me: Okay, then let's do what those countries do then.

Caleb Hull: No, that's socialism!
dog

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1730 on: March 11, 2020, 03:51:19 PM »
defending trotskyism...
I support the jdpon :hmph
每天生气

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1731 on: March 11, 2020, 08:56:21 PM »
But if you reduce the number of security guards, and more of the goods the laborers produce are stolen, or eaten by wild animals during the night, then doesn't that lower total product? Are theft and waste counted as consumption? And say you have an overseer, who whips the laborers from time to time to make them go faster. If you converted him into a laborer, that could conceivably lead to lower total product; does that make whipping the laborers a productive activity?
Theft is an illegal transfer - it doesn't lower the total product because the product has already been produced. Crop damage is depreciation. If adding a night patrol increases yield then that's productive work and that added labor becomes part of the production technique. In the example given I think by security guards we mean general shared security, like a police force.

In the case of the slave driver, and this is a good example, the intensification of labor is what produces more product. Marx was very keen to emphasize this point that businesses are driven to intensify work more and more in order to produce more profit. Since the wage remains constant the value rate of exploitation is clearly increasing. There is no functional difference between a slave driver and the computerized timekeeping that is ubiquitous in the service industry now. That does not mean the slave driver is productive.

I know you're trying to tease apart this criteria and you're right to do so. The distinction between productive and unproductive work is one of the most attacked linkages in Marxist analysis. I think it's important to consider a concept in the context of the argument it's a part of. What they're setting up here is a framework to analyze the way that the labor aristocracy is substantially dependent on expropriation of value from third world labor well above the rate at which first world workers are exploited. Think about how high the trade deficit is in developed countries - the US is completely dependent on a net positive capital flow in order to finance its importation of cheap products. If wages were equalized across nations the entire first world standard of living would absolutely fall apart, even though most people in the US do work. And it's precisely because of this distinction. It's like when the one keystone business in a Midwestern town leaves and the whole economy falls apart. In some sense the distinction is arbitrary but it's impossible to quantify or analyze global imperialism without first making such a delineation.

Yeah, among the things I got tripped up over at times were things like his deliberation on productive work. When I was reading his bit on explaining how transporting goods falls under the purview of productive it felt odd as it seemed entirely intuitive to consider transport productive and more so he was convincing himself.
That section in the chapter proceeds a part where he's saying that productive vs unproductive is different from industry vs services. It's not meant to convince the author, it's meant to clarify a common misconception.
每天生气

toku

  • 𝕩𝕩𝕩
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1732 on: March 11, 2020, 09:31:49 PM »

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1733 on: March 11, 2020, 09:35:52 PM »
nihilist accelerationism :noah




OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1737 on: March 16, 2020, 04:40:58 PM »
I ordered Mao's Red Book for some lite apocalypse reading

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1738 on: March 16, 2020, 04:44:09 PM »
This thread is now a struggle between me and Esch over whether you'll choose cringe Mao LARPing or useless dork economism
每天生气

OnlyRegret

  • <<SALVATION!>>
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1739 on: March 16, 2020, 04:47:40 PM »
considering I'm feeling nostalgia over my weird USSR phase in secondary school years, cringe is on the menu  8)
don't expect anything remotely plausible or sensical

spoiler (click to show/hide)
gonna grip some Stalin books for sure :noah  :ussrcry
[close]