Author Topic: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.  (Read 244731 times)

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curly

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curly

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1681 on: June 30, 2020, 06:46:20 PM »
Where's a good place to start with reading WEB DuBois

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1682 on: June 30, 2020, 07:45:36 PM »
Souls of Black Folk and Black Reconstruction. Darkwater and Dusk of Dawn are important too.

the sep has an article on him

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1683 on: June 30, 2020, 07:54:04 PM »
Study of the Negro Problems is a short essay and works well as a sort of introduction to Souls of Black Folk.

toku

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1684 on: July 01, 2020, 03:39:23 PM »


"We need to invent new forms of larger than state co-ordination"

yt algorithim is shit like this and then clips from 90s action movies  :lol



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benjipwns

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1687 on: July 01, 2020, 09:45:48 PM »

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1688 on: July 01, 2020, 10:05:06 PM »
 :kermit
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Rufus

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1689 on: July 03, 2020, 01:53:51 PM »
 :confused

Tripon

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1690 on: July 03, 2020, 02:10:52 PM »
Libertarian with yellow fever confuses his yellow fever with libertarianism. News at 11.



jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1692 on: July 04, 2020, 04:48:28 AM »
i picked up his new one and will report when im done
finished it about two weeks back. after reflection i think id go so far as to say the two books jointly constitute what is probably the timeliest social science of the moment, whatever it’s boundaries are, that we’re living in. i mean that in nietzsche’s sense. im not aware of another intellectual product of the past ~10 years that captures and answers the anxieties of its present with more lucidity. and if one of it’s intuitions proves right -that we’re standing at a liminal moment in political history- i think later generations will look back on the two books, and Capital and Ideology in particular, as definitive pieces of scholarship, whatever their failings.

but what’s actually in it? for starters, all the old empirics from the first book, plus additional similar empirics from the postcolonial south and postcommunist east. the narrative skeleton’s largely the same, rising inequality in the 19th century, dips down in the mid 20th, shoots back up in the late 20th with no imminent signs of stopping by the end of the first fifth of the 21st. what’s different is the interpretive flesh that’s encasing it all: r > g is either scrapped or silent (i dont care to find out which is actually the case); piketty was pilloried for describing it as an inexorable law of capitalism in the first book when nothing in that book committed him to say it wasn’t simply a trend, and a rectifiable one, within certain private property regimes. and this is largely what he does in his new book. the development of inequality is explained here by i) trends and laws of political economy and ii) ideology, or, reflexive normative attitudes taken towards the distribution of goods/wealth that do work to either justify or challenge that distribution.

before your ears prick up at that causal division nota bene to the dear reader, he imagines the term ‘ideology’ value-neutrally and in some kind of robust autonomy from the economy. he means it less marxly and more de tracy...ly. ideology also splinters itself along multiple different axes: inequality, property, legal, identitarian; they’re alternately regnant or subordinate, coextensive/mutually supporting or contradictory at different periods in different places.

so much for the methodological groundwork. the main meat of the book’s in the grand historical narrative, again, somewhat carried over from Capital in the 21st Century but greatly expanded. for one, he posits that pre-modern (roughly meaning pre-industrial) societies, of whatever stripe, can be fit into a general class he calls ‘ternary’ or ‘trifunctional’. the model is ancien regime france: warrior-nobility that provides arms and material security, clerisy that produces literate culture and usually religious legitimacy, and the laboring multitude who produce everything else. how the three orders concatenate and jockey over privilege and how that all relates to the different ideological ‘regimes’ and distribution of goods in all the different cases is a lot of the fun of the book. but it doesnt last, because certain states start getting really good at centralizing administrative functions and accumulating wealth, they start affording higher tax bases which allows them to project more power which allows them to accumulate even more wealth, a lot of it having to go to enterprising members of the third estate who start corroding the ternary structure from the inside. over the long nineteenth century, the states of western and northern europe gradually dismantle the system of complementary orders, to an (ostensibly) open access meritocratic proprietarian regime, where inequalities are justified on individual prudence and natural endowment.

the first catastrophe of the 20th century is a direct result of the jockeying of these different imperial proprietarian powers. it’s horrors lead into many identitarian and two major types of egalitarian backlash in the interwar period, the former of which sparks another catastrophe less than a generation later. the two models of egalitarianism fail though. the soviet experiment pretty definitively and the social-democratic somewhat less spectacularly. piketty laments the demise of the latter, not least because it births a neo-proprietarian era (roughly, 1980-present) that’s seemingly falling into the same identitarian switch-point that it’s grandfather did. his prescriptions are aimed at transcending the social-democratic model by deepening it: worker co-management of firms; temporizing (socializing?) the ownership of capital; high progressive tax rates, esp. on capital and estate transfers; initial capital endowment in early adulthood and nods to other direct transfer schemes like ubi; and probably most dramatically, vast integration of fiscal and monetary systems. the last is mostly in his polemics contra the eu but the implication i think is global.

a lot of other tidbits but thats the gist. a lot of scholarship in the footnotes, including some verso shoutouts. my girl marion fourcade got a citation, as did katarina pistor, whose book all you guys should check out.

tis a good one, jake seal of approval

Crash Dummy

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1693 on: July 05, 2020, 02:50:37 AM »
i'm not familiar at all with de tracy but i don't understand how one can look at ideology as value neutral? i know you just shared a pretty lengthy post but can you expand on this a little please?

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1694 on: July 05, 2020, 03:45:11 AM »
the particular instances (tokens) of ideology aren’t value-neutral. you’re right about that. the fact that an ideology is present is what gets treated value-neutrally by piketty.*

in common parlance, and in some lines of thought, the term often connotes some kind of delusionary function (and the implication is that ideology is to be avoided). what i mean to say is that isn’t how piketty uses the term; for him it’s just a descriptive term of art for his historical model.

*piketty would probably say that some ideology/ies -viz. some complex or constellation of justificatory and accusatory discursive patterns- has to obtain alongside each distributive regime

Crash Dummy

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1695 on: July 05, 2020, 04:14:33 AM »
ok, that's clear. my follow-up then how does he argue it's autonomous from the economy? is he saying there's no relationship or feedback at all between the two?

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1696 on: July 05, 2020, 03:52:01 PM »
he doesn’t, really:

Quote from: Introduction, pg. 7-8
Inequality is neither economic nor technological; it is ideological and political. This is no doubt the most striking conclusion to emerge from the historical ap­ proach I take in this book. In other words, the market and competition, profits and wages, capital and debt, skilled and unskilled workers, natives and aliens, tax havens and competitiveness—none of these things exist as such. All are social and historical constructs, which depend entirely on the legal, fiscal, educational, and political systems that people choose to adopt and the concep­ tual definitions they choose to work with. These choices are shaped by each society’s conception of social justice and economic fairness and by the relative political and ideological power of contending groups and discourses. Impor­ tantly, this relative power is not exclusively material; it is also intellectual and ideological. In other words, ideas and ideologies count in history. They enable us to imagine new worlds and different types of society. Many paths are possible.

This approach runs counter to the common conservative argument that in­ equality has a basis in “nature.” It is hardly surprising that the elites of many societies, in all periods and climes, have sought to “naturalize” inequality. They argue that existing social disparities benefit not only the poor but also society as a whole and that any attempt to alter the existing order of things will cause great pain. History proves the opposite: inequality varies widely in time and space, in structure as well as magnitude. Changes have occurred rapidly in ways that contemporaries could not have imagined only a short while before they came about. Misfortune did sometimes follow. Broadly speaking, however, po­ litical processes, including revolutionary transformations, that led to a reduc­ tion of inequality proved to be immensely successful. From them came our most precious institutions—those that have made human progress a reality, including universal suffrage, free and compulsory public schools, universal health insur­ ance, and progressive taxation. In all likelihood the future will be no different. The inequalities and institutions that exist today are not the only ones possible, whatever conservatives may say to the contrary. Change is permanent and inevitable.

Nevertheless, the approach taken in this book—based on ideologies, insti­ tutions, and the possibility of alternative pathways—also differs from ap­ proaches sometimes characterized as “Marxist,” according to which the state of the economic forces and relations of production determines a society’s ide­ological “superstructure” in an almost mechanical fashion. In contrast, I insist that the realm of ideas, the political­ideological sphere, is truly autonomous. Given an economy and a set of productive forces in a certain state of develop­ ment (supposing one can attach a definite meaning to those words, which is by no means certain), a range of possible ideological, political, and inequality regimes always exists. For instance, the theory that holds that a transition from “feudalism” to “capitalism” occurred as a more or less mechanical response to the Industrial Revolution cannot explain the complexity and multiplicity of the political and ideological pathways we actually observe in different coun­ tries and regions. In particular, it fails to explain the differences that exist between and within colonizing and colonized regions. Above all, it fails to impart lessons useful for understanding subsequent stages of history. When we look closely at what followed, we find that alternatives always existed—and al­ ways will. At every level of development, economic, social, and political systems can be structured in many different ways; property relations can be organized differently; different fiscal and educational regimes are possible; problems of public and private debt can be handled differently; numerous ways to manage relations between human communities exist; and so on. There are always several ways of organizing a society and its constitutive power and property relations. More specifically, today, in the twenty­first century, property relations can be organized in many ways. Clearly stating the alternatives may be more useful in transcending capitalism than simply threatening to destroy it without explaining what comes next.
link

i think he just uses the word ‘autonomous’ to underscore the radical contingency he thinks obtains at every moment, especially each ‘switch-point’.

i dont think anyone would bother to defend the view that there’s absolutely no causal relationship between social relations and the normative attitudes about those relations. and piketty doesn’t


Kara

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1698 on: July 28, 2020, 12:17:36 PM »

Kara

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1699 on: July 28, 2020, 12:21:21 PM »
Speaking of social fascism, can't think of a model of egalitarianism failing definitively quite like social-democracy did in World War I, but it sounds like Piketty is making a distinction without a difference there.

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1700 on: July 28, 2020, 02:48:00 PM »



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VomKriege

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1701 on: July 28, 2020, 03:10:10 PM »
THROWBACK



I was gonna go "ackshually" but upon thinking about it I can't think of many, certainly not in the last 30 years in the West at least. 40 you have Socialists in France winning the Presidency and passing some massive measures even if the economic program was discontinued two years in.

The other major one is Schröder and I'm not very on point with this but I'm sure he's probably viewed closer to Blair than success (unemployment and pensions reforms IIRC...).
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VomKriege

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1702 on: July 28, 2020, 03:18:50 PM »
The other major one is Schröder and I'm not very on point with this but I'm sure he's probably viewed closer to Blair than success (unemployment and pensions reforms IIRC...).
pretty sure Schroder just lowered taxes and cut spending

I didn't explicitly wrote so but "unemployment and pension reforms" geared to "austerity", obviously.
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Kara

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1704 on: July 28, 2020, 04:35:04 PM »
40 you have Socialists in France winning the Presidency and passing some massive measures even if the economic program was discontinued two years in.


VomKriege

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1705 on: July 28, 2020, 05:51:04 PM »
Yeah that too :lol

But you know, pushing minimal monthly wage by 10% and social benefits higher than that, massive surge in credits for social/labor/culture, abolishing the death penalty, authorizing local private radios, amnesty on all "illegal immigrants" having a job, creating a tax on high wealth, nationalising a series a bank and major companies, lowering the age of retirement, shorter work weeks, a fifth week of mandatory paid leave guaranteed etc, etc...

Jospin was sort of decent but apart from the 35h work week I'm not sure there's tangible legacy there, apart from taking steps for gender equality. Otherwise it was already well on the slope of towing austerity, with less brutality.
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VomKriege

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1706 on: July 28, 2020, 05:56:02 PM »
We can substitute Mauroy there instead of Mitterrand, for a purer socialist resume.
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Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1707 on: July 28, 2020, 06:51:53 PM »

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1708 on: July 28, 2020, 06:58:17 PM »
also made the white guy the ml

Kara

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1709 on: July 28, 2020, 07:05:00 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

See, this is what I was talking about when I said we needed to overcome our differences.

Kara

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1710 on: July 28, 2020, 07:18:53 PM »
1979 was the year Deng Xiaoping announced that a moderately prosperous society was the goal of the CPC. Has Mandark been a core economy Maoist this whole time? :thinking

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1711 on: July 28, 2020, 07:22:29 PM »
also soviet intervention in afghanistan

thatcher gets elected (reagan one year after)

wes unseld and elvin hayes start to really fall off
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 07:30:11 PM by Mandark »

Kara

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1712 on: July 28, 2020, 07:38:47 PM »
Bummer, it looks like http://ijoined.dsausa.org/ is dead. Wanted to make a "Jimmy Carter joined DSA" card there and stick a Paul Volcker quote on it. :'(

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1713 on: July 28, 2020, 07:43:54 PM »
man

ted kennedy should really, really not have done chappaquiddick

Kara

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1714 on: July 28, 2020, 08:08:16 PM »
I did one of those "the future if" memes about Chappaquiddick just now but I felt too bad about it to post. I guess we all have our arbitrary bright-lines.

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1715 on: July 28, 2020, 08:30:07 PM »
Some scandals seem quaint when you go back and read the details. That is not one of them.

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curly

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Kara

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Joe Molotov

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1722 on: July 29, 2020, 09:13:26 PM »
Party for Freedom, don’t mind if I do!
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Kara

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1723 on: July 29, 2020, 09:52:27 PM »
 :pimp

https://twitter.com/KawsachunNews/status/1288184667867353090

(For some context, the current government of Bolivia that did not come to power by winning an election has decided to postpone a long overdue election.)

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Kara

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1725 on: July 30, 2020, 11:17:56 AM »
 :science


jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1727 on: July 31, 2020, 01:17:31 AM »
Quote from: jakefromstatefarm
an American evasion of democracy
Quote from: d’Holbach on Representatives
In a purely democratic state the nation, to be quite accurate, is not represented: the people reserve for themselves the right to make their will known in the general assemblies, which are composed of all the citizens. But as soon as the people have chosen magistrates who have been made depositories of its authority, then these magistrates become their representatives. And according to whether more or less power has been reserved by and for the people, the government either becomes an aristocracy or it remains a democracy.

Kara

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1728 on: July 31, 2020, 08:27:05 PM »
The New York Times said WHAT?! /Clickhole




curly

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1731 on: August 01, 2020, 03:59:28 PM »
Quote
will you beat me daddy if I pee on your desk?

 :(

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1732 on: August 01, 2020, 04:02:16 PM »
 :shaq
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curly

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1733 on: August 01, 2020, 04:11:21 PM »
Red Kahina is deranged even by the standard of internet personalities.

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1734 on: August 01, 2020, 04:25:26 PM »
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VomKriege

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1735 on: August 01, 2020, 04:34:01 PM »
Red Kahina is deranged even by the standard of internet personalities.

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Kara

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1736 on: August 01, 2020, 04:41:17 PM »
Une minorité à la 《retweet》 correcte n'est plus une minorité.  :blessup

Kara

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1737 on: August 01, 2020, 06:54:15 PM »
Hetman Jan Sobieski it's happening dot gif

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1289231845842853890

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1738 on: August 01, 2020, 07:19:15 PM »
Nic więcej nie będę pisać... :doge
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jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1739 on: August 01, 2020, 09:18:39 PM »
somewhere timothy snyder just went into cardiac arrest