Doxxing Files |OT| Do not use a pandemic to make a platform wars thread

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

fuck, I hope we don't lose emote now

[joeboy101]

Any particular organization to donate to? I have a friend who is unfortunately moving out of the country later this weekend and as such is handing out her Christmas gifts early. Her gift to me is a copy of the game as she knows I'm big into RPGs. I don't want to be a dick about it and refuse (especially with her leaving the country) so I decided to just accept the gift and donate at least $100 towards a just cause. I figure it's best to consult with a member of the trans community what organizations to donate to as I'm not well verse on them. Thanks in advance!

Riiiight, a friend is gifting it, that’s why he’ll be playing it and posting later. Gotta keep up appearances.

 

[thetylerrob]

I want to make a joke about the patriarchy casting men and stealing women's roles but you know what good for them.

[HaughtyFrank]

I want to make a joke about the patriarchy casting men and stealing women's roles but you know what good for them.

Yeah, helps to remember that he just wants to live his best life. The pricks on RE aren't representative of the community

[Switters]

Pictured: Mess furiously tweeting CDPR Transphobia threads to Elliot Page.

 

[Mr. Nobody]

[clothedmacuser]

Well he's still cute.

[team filler]

ellen page was a girl 

[team filler]

I don't notice any difference 

[BIONIC]

ellen page was a girl 

[Nintex]

[team filler]

 

[Straight Edge]

Serious question. Could a company like Sony and Naughty Dog patch game credits?

 

[nudemacusers]

Any particular organization to donate to? I have a friend who is unfortunately moving out of the country later this weekend and as such is handing out her Christmas gifts early. Her gift to me is a copy of the game as she knows I'm big into RPGs. I don't want to be a dick about it and refuse (especially with her leaving the country) so I decided to just accept the gift and donate at least $100 towards a just cause. I figure it's best to consult with a member of the trans community what organizations to donate to as I'm not well verse on them. Thanks in advance!

Riiiight, a friend is gifting it, that’s why he’ll be playing it and posting later. Gotta keep up appearances.

 

this is a pretty good loophole tbh.

[BisMarckie]

I don't know, most loopholes don't require you to pay an extra 100 bucks.

[nudemacusers]

I don't know, most loopholes don't require you to pay an extra 100 bucks.

THERE IS NO ETHICAL GIFTING UNDER CAPITALISM

[BisMarckie]

I will buy Cyberpunk and watch something with Elliot Page in it and pretend to like it to make up for my crimes.

[Straight Edge]

Holy Resetera providing indulgences for the sin of transphobia! Martin Luther would be triggered!

[nudemacusers]

umbrella academy is pretty good, no need to pretend

also the goat trans character is lola from difficult people, the cattiest show of all time (rip):

https://www.imdb.com/video/vi19314969

[Nintex]

Any particular organization to donate to? I have a friend who is unfortunately moving out of the country later this weekend and as such is handing out her Christmas gifts early. Her gift to me is a copy of the game as she knows I'm big into RPGs. I don't want to be a dick about it and refuse (especially with her leaving the country) so I decided to just accept the gift and donate at least $100 towards a just cause. I figure it's best to consult with a member of the trans community what organizations to donate to as I'm not well verse on them. Thanks in advance!

Riiiight, a friend is gifting it, that’s why he’ll be playing it and posting later. Gotta keep up appearances.

 

this is a pretty good loophole tbh.

That's a kind thought Namikaze1 and xyla ~ you could donate to a local trans charity in your respective countries, or here's a link to donate to one in Poland directly - http://transfuzja.org/en/artykuly/donate.htm. General info on Trans-Fuzja here. Appreciate you both popping in.

For those keeping count, human rights violations can be acquitted with a $100 donation.

[BisMarckie]

Never watched it, the only movie I liked with Page in it was Inception and that was only a supporting role.

[BikeJesus]

Any particular organization to donate to? I have a friend who is unfortunately moving out of the country later this weekend and as such is handing out her Christmas gifts early. Her gift to me is a copy of the game as she knows I'm big into RPGs. I don't want to be a dick about it and refuse (especially with her leaving the country) so I decided to just accept the gift and donate at least $100 towards a just cause. I figure it's best to consult with a member of the trans community what organizations to donate to as I'm not well verse on them. Thanks in advance!

Riiiight, a friend is gifting it, that’s why he’ll be playing it and posting later. Gotta keep up appearances.

 

this is a pretty good loophole tbh.

What the fuck. A person who actually gave a shit about this would have already brought up the games problematic issues to their friend who is close enough to blow 50 bucks on them. And if they didn't, it isn't very difficult to say "I appreciate the thought, but the developer is transphobic and i have no desire to play their game. Please refund the gift and donate it to a trans charity instead. Thank you, you are the best!".

Imagine thinking there was no way around accepting the game. If it is a physical copy, sell it. If it is a key, don't redeem it and sell it.

Fake ass pretend bitch ass nicca. Just admit you either hate trans people, or you think crybaby era has overblown the issue. Fucking fake cuck.

expand...I'm in a somewhat similar boat - I already bought a key a long time ago before I knew about all of this. Can't get my money back.

Keys are for the GoG version which haven't been sent out yet, so just sell it. Steam doesn't give you a key.  Stop being a fake ass bitch. These liars are even worse than the people in the OT straight up saying they can't wait for the game. They want it both ways. They don't give a fuck about trans people. Kyuuji is pathetic for taking these bullshit excuses. Ketkat wouldn't have been suckered by that bullshit.

[Snoopycat_]

Kyuji's posts get ignored so he switches tactics and criticises the game's performance.

Still gets ignored

 

[team filler]

elliot page can suck my hog!!

[BikeJesus]

Kyuji's posts get ignored so he switches tactics and criticises the game's performance.

Still gets ignored

 

Criticizing the game on base console without the day 1 patch that it was delayed for.  Keep fighting that good fight!

[Rahxephon91]

Reee has decided that SkillUp is a literal nazi

Whats their problem with him?

[Snoopycat_]

Criticizing the game on base console without the day 1 patch that it was delayed for.  Keep fighting that good fight!

At this point he's just using any excuse to shit on the game. Nobody expects it to run flawlessly on consoles.

[Nintex]

GTAIV ran pretty bad on Xbox 360(hit 20fps more often than 30) and was still one of the most popular games of that gen.
When I got my Xbox One X I gave away my Xbox One to a friend. He's having a great time during COVID lockdown playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey.
Sure, he's impressed with my new Ryzen 5000 rig running the latest COD and DOOM at insane framerates but he would never spend that kind of money on gaming.

He's hyped for Cyberpunk too and is just happy that he can play it on his Xbox One as well.
I imagine that the type of gamers who're going to play Cyberpunk on Xbox One / PS4 are not the ones who worry too much about the benchmarks, framerates and pop-in.
As long as it runs anywhere near 30fps and it seems on par with what they're used to from GTAV, Witcher 3 and Assassins Creed it'll be fine.
 

[Snoopycat_]

Reee has decided that SkillUp is a literal nazi

Whats their problem with him?

He defended Alannah or Pewds. Maybe even both. That would make him literally Joseph Goebbels

[Snoopycat_]

GTAIV ran pretty bad on Xbox 360(hit 20fps more often than 30) and was still one of the most popular games of that gen.
When I got my Xbox One X I gave away my Xbox One to a friend. He's having a great time during COVID lockdown playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey.
Sure, he's impressed with my new Ryzen 5000 rig running the latest COD and DOOM at insane framerates but he would never spend that kind of money on gaming.

He's hyped for Cyberpunk too and is just happy that he can play it on his Xbox One as well.
I imagine that the type of gamers who're going to play Cyberpunk on Xbox One / PS4 are not the ones who worry too much about the benchmarks, framerates and pop-in.
As long as it runs anywhere near 30fps and it seems on par with what they're used to from GTAV, Witcher 3 and Assassins Creed it'll be fine.

Witcher 3 still controls like shit on the PS4. Controlling Gerald can be rage inducing, but it's still a great game

[joeboy101]

As the topic is ramping up in activity I think it's worth posting a reminder on the background to a lot of the sentiment. These issues are actively ongoing in each case, so any attention and time given to reading and considering the below alongside the hype for the trailer would be appreciated.

As CP77 features transphobic elements and is made by a company that's repeatedly been transphobic, while operating within a country that's in the midst of a severe nationwide crackdown on LGBTQ+ rights and people, in addition to bodily autonomy with a proposed new anti-abortion ruling (1,2) – one that has seen delay through widescale protest – I want to take a post to draw attention to the issues alongside the hype.

CDPR have spoken about the desire to reflect a range of political sympathies from staff in their game and are not only leaning on diversity and inclusivity as a promotion tool for it, but doing so at the expense of consideration for trans identities. A game having transphobic elements is problematic in and of itself but when it's being upheld as art and reflective of political sympathies from a country that's currently doing its best to ensure trans people - and all those under LGBTQ+ umbrella - don't exist, it should warrant an extra layer of scrutiny. Especially from a company with a history of transphobic output.

Media influences a lot of how the public perceive trans people and their identities so it isn't just a game and the backing to it isn't apolitical to start. If you're hyped for the game and can't wait to hit the streets of Night City it's still good to be understanding of the context. It isn't a guess that the transphobia present in CP77 is representative of the views widespread within their country, it's part of what they're stating is important to them.

Being fans of the game and giving the feedback to CDPR that their company and games would be better off without the transphobia is as beneficial as it is possible. Alongside the adoration and praise, being critical of these problems in alongside any positive feedback of the game in general could help nudge CDPR to be more inclusive and less bigoted toward trans people. There's really is no need for the transphobic elements in this game and from the company, and media like that we see paraded by them has a material impact on trans lives and the threats we face.

It would be appreciated if people could consider the below, in addition to the issues surrounding the company, alongside the celebratory hype in the runup to, and past, launch 💛


Poland will consider a LGBT Pride ban after a citizen's legislative initiative amassed more than 200,000 signatures.
www.pinknews.co.uk www.pinknews.co.uk
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/poland-lgbt-rights/2020/10/27/e82bce8a-12f7-11eb-a258-614acf2b906d_story.html

LGBTQ+ Charity & Trans support organisation:
Strona główna - Lambda Warszawa
lambdawarszawa.org lambdawarszawa.org
Trans-Fuzja Foundation • articles • portal
Trans-Fuzja Foundation • articles
transfuzja.org transfuzja.org

Support:
lgbtqpl.carrd.co
LGBTQ+ IN POLAND
please help!
lgbtqpl.carrd.co
Donate to Trans-Fuzja! • Donate • articles • portal
If you want to support our work for transgender equality in Poland, you can do so easily by donating to our cause! You can do so via bank transfer, credit card or Paypal!
transfuzja.org transfuzja.org
 

This in the Cyberpunk Nightwire thread. VERY next post...

Gosh I can't wait for this game to come out!

 

[Uncle]

geez it's already hard to search the internet for ellen page, within 3 hours the deadname is scrubbed from nearly everywhere except right wing sources like daily mail

you search for ellen page, every result says elliot already

[Straight Edge]

geez it's already hard to search the internet for ellen page, within 3 hours the deadname is scrubbed from nearly everywhere except right wing sources like daily mail

you search for ellen page, every result says elliot already

Convenient since his career will likely disappear as well.

[team filler]

 

[Boredfrom]

geez it's already hard to search the internet for ellen page, within 3 hours the deadname is scrubbed from nearly everywhere except right wing sources like daily mail

you search for ellen page, every result says elliot already

Convenient since his career will likely disappear as well.

Being fair, he could play that niche trans man character oscar bait that RE always complains that goes to CIS actors.

Another genuine positive is that we can pretend that beyond two souls never happened.

[HaughtyFrank]

Another genuine positive is that we can pretend that beyond two souls never happened.

Trans-remaster incoming.

[Boredfrom]

David Cage specially had a fetish when he was Ellen, so dunno what would be going in his head right now.

[Transhuman]

Most of the articles about the coming out are using a photo of Page wearing a baseball cap so it's easier for old people to wrap their heads around I guess.

[benjipwns]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/do-you-think-there-is-a-good-argument-to-be-made-that-trump-will-be-a-long-term-net-positive-for-the-country-world.336270/

User banned (permanent): Inflammatory, inappropriate, and insulting commentary over a series of posts

I understand the thread title probably touches a nerve for many, but it's the best way I know how to put it. Hear me out, please. First, disclaimers:
-Trump is bad. He's an awful human and definitely in the running for the worst president we've ever had. He has no redeeming qualities. I hate everything he's done. I hate him as a person. I understand that he has hurt people and put people in danger and gotten people killed through action and inaction. I cannot state enough how much I absolutely loathe him and everything he stands for. This is not a "is Trump secretly good?" thread. It's a thread about the real-world outcomes of what comes in the wake of Trump's unquestionable badness.
-I'm not even sure I myself would argue strongly in favor of what I'm proposing in this thread. It may be too early to tell if any of this is true, and it's probably impossible to do the calculus on the ultimate harm versus good, even if you believe in that kind of moral and ethical approach to the world. Some of this is based on feeling and is impossible to really measure.

That being said, here's what I've been mulling over lately...

First, I believe that Trump's presidency and all the things he has done and said during his time in office have seemingly made a lot more people aware, interested, and involved in politics. I think his time in power has helped to make a lot of people be less complacent about what goes on in politics and the world in general. I believe he has radicalized a lot of people in opposition to him. Seeing marches and protests and discourse go on that I never really saw before under other similarly awful Republican presidents made me believe that all of Trump's bad may have been met with some positive outcomes on the opposing side.

Second, seeing what is happening now with Trump's tantrum over losing re-election is what really has me thinking there might be an argument to be made here. If he can drag enough of his red hat army down with his sinking ship, if he can fracture the Republican Party into something that is irreparable or less harmful, I think there's also an end positive to that. And I think it's likely, though not guaranteed.

So with those two big points, do you believe there is any argument to be made that ultimately, weighing the positive outcomes with the negative ones, that there is some "cosmic balance" that puts Trump's presidency as a net positive?

Again, I'm not even sure if I myself believe this. I typically don't subscribe to the kind of utilitarian ethics that says 10 points of good "outweighs" 9 points of bad. I don't think you can really put a value on the human cost of what Trump has done. But I feel like there are some people out there who might believe this is possible on some really long timescale, especially if the negative effects Trump's implosion might have on the GOP prove to be significant and long-lasting.

Maybe it's not a simple yes or no and the answer is way more complicated than that. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

I don't really see this as an accelerationist argument. I'm not saying "we should have elected Trump because we have to burn everything down to rebuild it." I am glad Trump lost re-election. But he won the first time, and I'm pondering whether we could see some long-term net good as a result.

This is definitely one of the strongest counters to this potential argument.

I guess that's the argument I'm getting at though, something on the decades-long time scale. Irreparable harm has been inflicted, no doubt. I don't question that. You can't bring all the people dead back to life. But I'm wondering if there's anyone that would be willing to argue for the long time-scale. Not four years or even ten years down the road, but 50 or 100 years. Is there anyone that would look to the last four years and say that it's going to have us end up in an ultimately better place that far down the road than we would have been if "politics as usual" just continued to happen over and over again in an endless cycle.

The empathy is in having this argument in a place where I can lay out my entire argument, say exactly why I think Trump is bad, and have an open place for discussing a hypothetical idea that I'm not even sure I believe, than to go up to an LGBT person on the street, for example, and say "Hey do you think Trump is good, actually?"

I tried really hard to present this discussion in the best way I possibly could while still discussing it at all. I don't think having these discussions should be off the table as long as we approach them with care. And I tried to do that the best I could.

I hurt for the people that Trump has hurt. I really, really do. I hate the man and all he has done.

I said multiple times that I don't even think I'd make the argument myself. I just wanted people's thoughts on the issue. Maybe just to make me see how wrong I am for even the fleeting thought.

That's not the intention at all. I don't want to imply that Trump himself is an agent for good. He didn't do any of this on purpose. If there is any argument to be made that any good comes from any of this, it's not because Trump did the good. It's a consequence of the outcomes from his time in office, not because he deserves "credit" for anything good at all. I don't mean to imply that and I'm sorry if it comes off that way or if the framing of this question is hurtful to those directly negatively impacted by Trump's actions and rhetoric.

Nepenthe, as an administrator of this site you have my full blessing to lock this thread if you believe its existence is harmful. I won't take any offense.

Seriously, what the fuck.

"Where did you think you are?"

[BikeJesus]

Xas having another mental breakdown.

I can't believe this thread is on the verge of giving me a panic attack and some of you are high fiving each otehr with joy! NOW I'm a fucking right-winger fox news person!?! FOR WHAT!?

Today I learned I am a dumb, idiotic, intellectually dishonest dirty foreigner who is the equivalent of a foxnews listener and deserves criticisms and scorn and sneers and to have bullies high five each other with support in making sure I suffer a panic attack because of the crime of asking for proof for something someone said. Fucking hell! Libs always to this where now i'm such a monster now that they can not only ignore me, but rejocie insulting me and high fiving each other for doing so! ALL FOR ASKING FOR PROOF!

Except they did not HAVE to be against the War on Terror. The War on Terror is a nebulous concept that could have meant anything. I never said he had to be AGAINST the War on Terror but you have insisted that without him being supportive he would have lost! Me asking for proof is not disintellectual honest nor does it make it right, justice, and noble to insutl me until I can't breathe!

Yikes!

And there's more.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/president-obama-reflects-on-the-use-of-the-drone-program-and-the-illusion-that-it-is-not-war.336144/page-7#post-52949382


Aaaand the person they melted down on was banned for hostility. I wonder if xas will get banned for obvious hostility, or are they too afraid they will push them over the edge?

I seriously cant keep doing this buddy.

I dont know if you are really that poor in the reading comprehension department, are from another country, or what the barrier is, but not one time have I said what you keep asserting.

What I have said to you no less than 4 times now is that Obama, or any nominee, was not going to be able to win election, then win re-election, without committing to the War on Terror. Whether they genuinely believed in the war on terror or not(I tend to think Obama was a genuine believer). Drone strikes are a product of that pursuit. They are a tactic in that strategy. They are a menu item in the portfolio and if you want to execute that strategy you have to pick one or more. And no candidate that could wish to earn or hold the office of the presidency could win without committing to, or establishing a strong record, toward a dilligent pursuit of the war on terror.

[Averon]

Orb should have known he would get hit with a perm posting that. He's been on PoliERA's shit-list for a while for being a lefty and saying the Dems ain't shit regularly. He gave them the excuse to finally get rid of him permanently.

[benjipwns]

Xas having another mental breakdown.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/president-obama-reflects-on-the-use-of-the-drone-program-and-the-illusion-that-it-is-not-war.336144/page-7#post-52949382

you need to take a break and do something calming.

Why? So they can go "I'm glad that piece of shit is gone"?

based

[Averon]

God, someone needs to call out Xas for being an emotionally manipulative little shit. Constantly going on these suicidal screeds and going "I'm dying!!! You're killing me!!!!!" whenever someone doesn't agree with her in almost every thread gets old. But they won't because they know they would almost surely be banned for "dismissing concerns regarding mental illness/suicide" and Xas knows it, which is why she continues this schtick in almost every thread she's in.

[Yulwei]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/cyberpunk-2077-night-city-wire-episode-5-ot-time-moves-in-one-direction-memory-in-another-media-impressions-console-footage-discussion.328655/page-84#post-52960116

looks like Kyuuji is setting up shop in the cyberpunk OP because the stickied thread isn't getting enough attention. You shitlords thought you could just talk about video games behind his back?

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

Thanks for your input, war criminal.

 

[ShutUp]

Everyone just talking around Kyuuji is going to lead to permabans for refusing to talk to other members of the thread.

[Boredfrom]

Ok - what the point of the outrage? What’s the end goal? Y’all just want to shout into the night and that’s it? Because of so - cool. But if you want something more than that then your cool slogan won’t work.

  This is a bad point. Stop trying to make it. What you're basically doing is tone policing and telling black people we can't be angry when our people are murdered.

When the ex-president that happens to be black is telling to chill out with the slogans...

[ToxicAdam]

I will buy Cyberpunk and watch something with Elliot Page in it and pretend to like it to make up for my crimes.

Sounds a lot like carbon offsets.

[jorma]

Everyone just talking around Kyuuji is going to lead to permabans for refusing to talk to other members of the thread.

Kyuuji to everyone else: "Every single one of you motherfuckers needs to learn how to read the fucking room!"

[HaughtyFrank]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/cyberpunk-2077-photo-mode-trailer.336822/post-52972401

 

aaaand it's locked. What kind of toothless excuse will they come up with this time?

"A new trailer for a highly anticipated videogames doesn't warrant a thread"

Edit:

With the game already out in the wild and an active thread for the marketing materials, this thread is unnecessary and can be discussed here.

 

[Straight Edge]

Does it make any difference whether there are 5 threads with 100 replies each or 1 thread with 500 replies?

[Pissy F Benny]

5 threads would mean Kyuuji would need 5 tabs open to defiantly shit each of them up

[tiesto]

Serious question. Could a company like Sony and Naughty Dog patch game credits?

 

I think this happened with the Cold Steel 1-2 re-releases. XSeed removed Brittany (the translator)'s name from the credits because she left and joined NIS (when they scored the rights for CS3 and other Falcom games). I think they re-patched her name in due to backlash.

[ShutUp]

People in that night city wire thread already anticipating not even being allowed to have a screenshot thread and just having to post screenshots in the OT or console/PC screenshot thread.

Just absurd. "Mods don't care about us" shout the most protected and catered to communities on the site.

[Pissy F Benny]

if the mods will cave to your every demand why wouldn't you take full advantage of it

[BIONIC]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/cyberpunk-2077-night-city-wire-episode-5-ot-time-moves-in-one-direction-memory-in-another-media-impressions-console-footage-discussion.328655/page-87#post-52983150

I'll offer a rare counterbalance in a moment of tired frustration. A portion of it really is in wishing I could be as pogged about everything as others here. Like the hype when the reveal hit. It's hard to just shrug off the knowledge of how media representation affects us though, and what real-world impacts that results in. It's not cute, it's not edgy. It's harmful.

That's why I'm sincere when I mean both the game and the company would be better off without it; I genuinely mean it and wish it were the case. I resent having to see shit like trans-related drinks labelled poison, people mocking our bodies, relating them to beasts and the like, because it just feels so damn unnecessary. When removed from the game - even without the depth most are hoping for - there's a lot on the surface that looks decent. So I really do hope there is that depth around the themes that it's choosing to touch on, particularly those close to home. I just have little cause to believe it will. Having a game that has the scope to actually go into things on that level feels a loss when it's passed by, even moreso when it veers in the opposite direction toward mockery and derision.

Even with the potential to play without paying a dime it's hard to muster any sense of hype. I think there could be a lot to go into and write about over it, and part of me is interested to; especially around such a notable release and one that's already veered into the negative. The other part though, the majority, just wishes I didn't have to. That it was untwined from the unnecessary crap CDPR chose to bring to the table with it.

So believe me, I do appreciate why people are hyped. I just also wish more would understand that it's as a result of the actions of CDPR that not everyone can be, despite having wanted, or wanting, to be. Which sucks.


Completely. Some (all?) of my favourite games I have bones to pick with in some way, shape or form. There's no benefit in masking them. Ultimately I'd hope that come a future iteration they were addressed in each case, so we could end up with something even better.

[joeboy101]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/do-you-think-there-is-a-good-argument-to-be-made-that-trump-will-be-a-long-term-net-positive-for-the-country-world.336270/

User banned (permanent): Inflammatory, inappropriate, and insulting commentary over a series of posts

I understand the thread title probably touches a nerve for many, but it's the best way I know how to put it. Hear me out, please. First, disclaimers:
-Trump is bad. He's an awful human and definitely in the running for the worst president we've ever had. He has no redeeming qualities. I hate everything he's done. I hate him as a person. I understand that he has hurt people and put people in danger and gotten people killed through action and inaction. I cannot state enough how much I absolutely loathe him and everything he stands for. This is not a "is Trump secretly good?" thread. It's a thread about the real-world outcomes of what comes in the wake of Trump's unquestionable badness.
-I'm not even sure I myself would argue strongly in favor of what I'm proposing in this thread. It may be too early to tell if any of this is true, and it's probably impossible to do the calculus on the ultimate harm versus good, even if you believe in that kind of moral and ethical approach to the world. Some of this is based on feeling and is impossible to really measure.

That being said, here's what I've been mulling over lately...

First, I believe that Trump's presidency and all the things he has done and said during his time in office have seemingly made a lot more people aware, interested, and involved in politics. I think his time in power has helped to make a lot of people be less complacent about what goes on in politics and the world in general. I believe he has radicalized a lot of people in opposition to him. Seeing marches and protests and discourse go on that I never really saw before under other similarly awful Republican presidents made me believe that all of Trump's bad may have been met with some positive outcomes on the opposing side.

Second, seeing what is happening now with Trump's tantrum over losing re-election is what really has me thinking there might be an argument to be made here. If he can drag enough of his red hat army down with his sinking ship, if he can fracture the Republican Party into something that is irreparable or less harmful, I think there's also an end positive to that. And I think it's likely, though not guaranteed.

So with those two big points, do you believe there is any argument to be made that ultimately, weighing the positive outcomes with the negative ones, that there is some "cosmic balance" that puts Trump's presidency as a net positive?

Again, I'm not even sure if I myself believe this. I typically don't subscribe to the kind of utilitarian ethics that says 10 points of good "outweighs" 9 points of bad. I don't think you can really put a value on the human cost of what Trump has done. But I feel like there are some people out there who might believe this is possible on some really long timescale, especially if the negative effects Trump's implosion might have on the GOP prove to be significant and long-lasting.

Maybe it's not a simple yes or no and the answer is way more complicated than that. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

I don't really see this as an accelerationist argument. I'm not saying "we should have elected Trump because we have to burn everything down to rebuild it." I am glad Trump lost re-election. But he won the first time, and I'm pondering whether we could see some long-term net good as a result.

This is definitely one of the strongest counters to this potential argument.

I guess that's the argument I'm getting at though, something on the decades-long time scale. Irreparable harm has been inflicted, no doubt. I don't question that. You can't bring all the people dead back to life. But I'm wondering if there's anyone that would be willing to argue for the long time-scale. Not four years or even ten years down the road, but 50 or 100 years. Is there anyone that would look to the last four years and say that it's going to have us end up in an ultimately better place that far down the road than we would have been if "politics as usual" just continued to happen over and over again in an endless cycle.

The empathy is in having this argument in a place where I can lay out my entire argument, say exactly why I think Trump is bad, and have an open place for discussing a hypothetical idea that I'm not even sure I believe, than to go up to an LGBT person on the street, for example, and say "Hey do you think Trump is good, actually?"

I tried really hard to present this discussion in the best way I possibly could while still discussing it at all. I don't think having these discussions should be off the table as long as we approach them with care. And I tried to do that the best I could.

I hurt for the people that Trump has hurt. I really, really do. I hate the man and all he has done.

I said multiple times that I don't even think I'd make the argument myself. I just wanted people's thoughts on the issue. Maybe just to make me see how wrong I am for even the fleeting thought.

That's not the intention at all. I don't want to imply that Trump himself is an agent for good. He didn't do any of this on purpose. If there is any argument to be made that any good comes from any of this, it's not because Trump did the good. It's a consequence of the outcomes from his time in office, not because he deserves "credit" for anything good at all. I don't mean to imply that and I'm sorry if it comes off that way or if the framing of this question is hurtful to those directly negatively impacted by Trump's actions and rhetoric.

Nepenthe, as an administrator of this site you have my full blessing to lock this thread if you believe its existence is harmful. I won't take any offense.

Seriously, what the fuck.

"Where did you think you are?"

Yeah, seriously BDumb. To think this asshole wanted a reasoned calm discussion about Trump. Definitely needed to be perm’d.

 

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

all those real world impacts, like reminding people of that time they were decking into a datafort but tripped a watchdog and now a killteam of corporate solos are descending on their position

[MMaRsu]

Does it make any difference whether there are 5 threads with 100 replies each or 1 thread with 500 replies?

According to Cindy and bork, it sure does 

[MMaRsu]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/do-you-think-there-is-a-good-argument-to-be-made-that-trump-will-be-a-long-term-net-positive-for-the-country-world.336270/

User banned (permanent): Inflammatory, inappropriate, and insulting commentary over a series of posts

I understand the thread title probably touches a nerve for many, but it's the best way I know how to put it. Hear me out, please. First, disclaimers:
-Trump is bad. He's an awful human and definitely in the running for the worst president we've ever had. He has no redeeming qualities. I hate everything he's done. I hate him as a person. I understand that he has hurt people and put people in danger and gotten people killed through action and inaction. I cannot state enough how much I absolutely loathe him and everything he stands for. This is not a "is Trump secretly good?" thread. It's a thread about the real-world outcomes of what comes in the wake of Trump's unquestionable badness.
-I'm not even sure I myself would argue strongly in favor of what I'm proposing in this thread. It may be too early to tell if any of this is true, and it's probably impossible to do the calculus on the ultimate harm versus good, even if you believe in that kind of moral and ethical approach to the world. Some of this is based on feeling and is impossible to really measure.

That being said, here's what I've been mulling over lately...

First, I believe that Trump's presidency and all the things he has done and said during his time in office have seemingly made a lot more people aware, interested, and involved in politics. I think his time in power has helped to make a lot of people be less complacent about what goes on in politics and the world in general. I believe he has radicalized a lot of people in opposition to him. Seeing marches and protests and discourse go on that I never really saw before under other similarly awful Republican presidents made me believe that all of Trump's bad may have been met with some positive outcomes on the opposing side.

Second, seeing what is happening now with Trump's tantrum over losing re-election is what really has me thinking there might be an argument to be made here. If he can drag enough of his red hat army down with his sinking ship, if he can fracture the Republican Party into something that is irreparable or less harmful, I think there's also an end positive to that. And I think it's likely, though not guaranteed.

So with those two big points, do you believe there is any argument to be made that ultimately, weighing the positive outcomes with the negative ones, that there is some "cosmic balance" that puts Trump's presidency as a net positive?

Again, I'm not even sure if I myself believe this. I typically don't subscribe to the kind of utilitarian ethics that says 10 points of good "outweighs" 9 points of bad. I don't think you can really put a value on the human cost of what Trump has done. But I feel like there are some people out there who might believe this is possible on some really long timescale, especially if the negative effects Trump's implosion might have on the GOP prove to be significant and long-lasting.

Maybe it's not a simple yes or no and the answer is way more complicated than that. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

I don't really see this as an accelerationist argument. I'm not saying "we should have elected Trump because we have to burn everything down to rebuild it." I am glad Trump lost re-election. But he won the first time, and I'm pondering whether we could see some long-term net good as a result.

This is definitely one of the strongest counters to this potential argument.

I guess that's the argument I'm getting at though, something on the decades-long time scale. Irreparable harm has been inflicted, no doubt. I don't question that. You can't bring all the people dead back to life. But I'm wondering if there's anyone that would be willing to argue for the long time-scale. Not four years or even ten years down the road, but 50 or 100 years. Is there anyone that would look to the last four years and say that it's going to have us end up in an ultimately better place that far down the road than we would have been if "politics as usual" just continued to happen over and over again in an endless cycle.

The empathy is in having this argument in a place where I can lay out my entire argument, say exactly why I think Trump is bad, and have an open place for discussing a hypothetical idea that I'm not even sure I believe, than to go up to an LGBT person on the street, for example, and say "Hey do you think Trump is good, actually?"

I tried really hard to present this discussion in the best way I possibly could while still discussing it at all. I don't think having these discussions should be off the table as long as we approach them with care. And I tried to do that the best I could.

I hurt for the people that Trump has hurt. I really, really do. I hate the man and all he has done.

I said multiple times that I don't even think I'd make the argument myself. I just wanted people's thoughts on the issue. Maybe just to make me see how wrong I am for even the fleeting thought.

That's not the intention at all. I don't want to imply that Trump himself is an agent for good. He didn't do any of this on purpose. If there is any argument to be made that any good comes from any of this, it's not because Trump did the good. It's a consequence of the outcomes from his time in office, not because he deserves "credit" for anything good at all. I don't mean to imply that and I'm sorry if it comes off that way or if the framing of this question is hurtful to those directly negatively impacted by Trump's actions and rhetoric.

Nepenthe, as an administrator of this site you have my full blessing to lock this thread if you believe its existence is harmful. I won't take any offense.

Seriously, what the fuck.

"Where did you think you are?"

Yeah, seriously BDumb. To think this asshole wanted a reasoned calm discussion about Trump. Definitely needed to be perm’d.

 

Damn dude just wanted to have a normal discussion and got perm'd as if he was a blackface lover