Star Trek Thread part 2: The Kurtzman Strikes Back

[Polident Hive]

Strange New Worlds was alright. Think I tried watching the others and couldn't finish the pilots. So an improvement! faint praise!

Made me think of Enterprise filtered through 2009 Trek, with a few too many quips. My understanding is it'll be a different adventure each week? Dude playing Pike seems cool but should've kept the hair and beard from the intro. Could tone down the shoulder pads on the uniforms, too. Jamis serving as the ship doctor is a nice surprise.

[D3RANG3D]

Saw the second episode of Shart Trek SNW and congratulations you made a bog standard sci-fi episode so this is like the Citizen Kane of episodes in all of the shite that makes up the Kurtzman Drek sub milieu. 

spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is the only halfway respectable episode of Nutrek which is fucking astounding but, like always there has to be somebody with a tragic back story god they just can't help themselves can they. 

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[VomKriege]

I've been thinking about what makes Star Trek good or bad and I'm a little unsure what really makes things click... A lot of the common issues people will point in Voyager you can also find in earlier series. One note crew members, flip flop characterisation, concepts that don't really make sense, variable acting quality, formulaic stereotypes, corniness, unsubtle stories etc. Even the whole tone thing... DS9 pulled it off.

One thing though I'd say is that Voyager didn't really up the ante on scrambling the characters and punching up with the alien novelty. Data is the Logical Spock, Odo is kinda the Spock... Worf is the torn between two cultures Spock, DS9 has a ton of that but Dax I suppose... Voyager had Talaxians and Ocampans on the crew and that's just not as good. Torres is rethreading Worf issues. Enterprise is mostly all humans.

I think RLM was on to something about how TNG S1 was so dry character wise but they got a lot richer... There's a ton of things to nitpick continuity wise and a lot of ideas and interactions that you can find meh but by and large it works in the broader sense of making those people feel real.

Beyond Jeri Ryan wearing that spandex like a boss, 7 of 9 was a lot stronger... Not necessary subtler... A general premise.

[VomKriege]

Riker is not a favourite of mine but it's impossible to hate him after that student exchange on a Klingon ship episode.

[Uncle]

I would say being internally consistent with its own characters and continuity, not abandoning the core premise of the show when convenient

and when you want to get inspiring or meaningful, let it happen as a natural consequence of story events rather than trying too hard to wax philosophical/spiritual

it's hard to keep an audience's attention with so much media to consume these days, so modern story design is all based around setting up mystery boxes, and whether they have a planned answer or not, they almost never come together satisfyingly, or various elements will feel contrived or outlandish to suit the needs of having a pew pew space battle

old trek had room for conflict-of-the-week so you could just...tell a self-contained story without worrying yourself OR the audience about whether it fits into a grand narrative

yes DS9 was more of a long term narrative but they kept having smaller stories throughout

[Uncle]

this is possibly the best scene in all of star trek



these days the crew run in circles screaming at each other or saying "science, fuck yeah" while dabbing because it's so gosh darn relatable for the kiddos

[Polident Hive]

Can’t elaborate well but characters being emotionally mature, reasonable adults, professionals, however you’d frame it, was part of the old trek appeal to me. There wasn’t a lack of interpersonal drama or emotions. The characters just weren’t acting like bratty teenagers. Everybody became Westley, as written by Joss Whedon.

[Uncle]

demonstrating that flavor of maturity requires restraint, and restraint means you are passionless and unable to effectively and decisively defend the downtrodden

restraint means embracing the dogwhistle of "waiting for all the info / willingness to hear bOtH sIdEs" instead of guillotining those who deserve it

professionalism allows those who are unshackled by such trivialities to act carelessly and go as low as they want, confident you won't "lower yourself to their level" thereby losing the war

maybe the idea that people could maintain a culture of earnest professionalism was always a fantasy, but a thoughtful mutual respect is so satisfying to see

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

Can’t elaborate well but characters being emotionally mature, reasonable adults, professionals, however you’d frame it, was part of the old trek appeal to me. There wasn’t a lack of interpersonal drama or emotions. The characters just weren’t acting like bratty teenagers. Everybody became Westley, as written by Joss Whedon.

I fucking wish NuTrek felt like it was written by Joss Whedon. The Nevers shows he can still write a watchable TV show, even though he's doubleplus cancelled.

I don't know if its because the writers are idiots, or just that they have a lazy contempt for their audience and assume they are idiots, but it is written by/for idiots.
That's where you get "Science, fuck yeah!" from - because at no fucking point does anyone apply actual science (even treknobabble science) in an interesting or creative way.
You start wondering if the writers even went to a physics class the underlying principles are so fucking "A wizard Scientist did it!" shoddy - which is fine I guess in a 'indistinguishable from magic' environment where you have space monks with laser swords and concepts like 'destiny' and 'chosen one' are treated seriously, but thats not fucking star trek.

Also like Uncle says, there seems to be a real reluctance to even attempt to see a 'both sides' argument, which happened all the fucking time in TNG; you know that episode where it turns out warp speed is permanently and irrevocably fucking up subspace? It's an obvious allegory for contemporary travel pollution, but its made extremely clear its a big fucking deal that there are no easy or obvious fixes for, and nobody is an outright bad guy for having a different position on the seriousness and urgency of the situation (and more tellingly, nothing gets fucking fixed and the writers just kinda brush the implications under the carpet ever since).
That same episode in NuTrek would be:

• Discovery lands at a planet, and all the babbies and puppies and kittens are dying and noone knows why
• MICHAEL BURNHAM discovers its because warp energy! Its deadly to babbies and puppies and kittens!
• Also the salesperson of warp energy knew this the whole time BUT IT IS SO PROFITABLE! What do babbies and kittens and puppies matter when you can MAKE MONEY! Why yes, he is a member of the federation, what does that have to do with anything?
• Ginger Science uses her menstrual blood to fix all warp energy everywhere because SCIENCE FUCK YEAH and also MICHAEL BURNHAM was the inspiration that made it happen
• Also; some new mystery box regarding the season long mystery box arc. MYSTERY BOX!

Also a general gripe about modern TV writers; I kind of get that they have to use Twitter to build a fanbse and get gigs, but I wish to fucking christ they would get the fuck off twitter, because increasingly it seems like writers are just writing shit so they can get a dunk on someone or other on twitter.
It's like they all want their version of The Newsrooms Osama Is Dead scene, but don't get that keeps getting posted because it is fucking awful.

The above please gtfo twitter tv writers is partially inspired by NuTrek, but if truth be told, no matter how fucking miserable and poorly written NuTrek is, it's still way fucking better than Nu Who

[Tasty]

It's like they all want their version of The Newsrooms Osama Is Dead scene, but don't get that keeps getting posted because it is fucking awful.

I forgot, was that the scene where they played Coldplay?

[VomKriege]

It's like they all want their version of The Newsrooms Osama Is Dead scene, but don't get that keeps getting posted because it is fucking awful.

I forgot, was that the scene where they played Coldplay?

Journalist on plane breaks the big news he's privy to and dedicate it to the jetliner's pilots.

[Tasty]

Ah yeah that's right, Fix You was for Gabby Giffords getting shot in the head.

[VomKriege]

 
For encyclopedic purposes

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[D3RANG3D]

Where is that spinal cord in the ass out pic? 

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Spock is half human. 

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[VomKriege]

Never finished Enterprise, which I sort of regret, I'll maybe come around to that. It's really middling but it's still Trek mostly. Though to stand what I said earlier not a lot of strong memorable characters in that cast except Phlox. The whole Archer W Bush, good old boys crew going to space thing didn't really work for me even if the angle of Human/Vulcan mistrust in early Federation days was interesting.

To be fair I suppose there's only so many permutations you can have on that sort of starship crew configuration.

[VomKriege]

https://www.theonion.com/the-new-star-trek-series-1819587057

Ouch 

[chronovore]

Never finished Enterprise, which I sort of regret, I'll maybe come around to that. It's really middling but it's still Trek mostly. Though to stand what I said earlier not a lot of strong memorable characters in that cast except Phlox. The whole Archer W Bush, good old boys crew going to space thing didn't really work for me even if the angle of Human/Vulcan mistrust in early Federation days was interesting.

To be fair I suppose there's only so many permutations you can have on that sort of starship crew configuration.

Excepting its series finale, the final season of ENT is some of the best Star Trek available. Just a heap of fun, 2-3 episode mini-arcs, written by the stewards of Trek lore, featuring some great, deep cuts.

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

I'm in a minority in that I liked the premise of a temporal cold war - although I think it might have worked better with a previously known faction / species who had exhibited some temporal fuckery previously; maybe the aliens from that TNG 2-parter where they visit Mark Twain? - and didn't like the earth getting nuked revenge mission season much.

[benjipwns]

Season 3 is great because it's what both Voyager and Enterprise should have been. A ship in the unknown that faces actual unknowns, that has to deal with actual moral challenges and has recurring issues that aren't reset at the end of every week even though the ship has no access to endless resources.

The Xindi were stupid until the middle and then became stupider at the end because otherwise the plot couldn't be wrapped up, the Trek 9/11 January 6th triggering event was stupid, parts of the season drag too long and it wasn't until Manny Coto took over that the writers were given approval to mine Trek's history and drop Braga's vision that it began to truly work but Season 3 was the first time that the show escaped HEY REMEMBER THIS FROM TNG ANYWAY BYE and being carried solely by Archer, T'Pol and Phlox (and Shran but don't tell him I said that) being the only humans involved ever.

The Temporal Cold War was stupid and was Braga's standard time travel crutch being completely unexplored while also providing him an out for when he inevitably fucked up the timeline since he had no interest in the Trek canon that he didn't personally write.

Like Voyager, the first two seasons of Enterprise have good episodes but also like Voyager (though Voyager's early seasons stuck to it more) the people in charge didn't actually care at all about the premise. Voyager's failure was more evident because it was happening alongside a show that made the original premise its entire reason for being.

[VomKriege]

I went to late season 2 IIRC. The Temporal Cold War was a bit whatever, seemed like way too complicated and bloated a concept for the setting and famously no one really knew or care who was the antagonist really.

being carried solely by Archer, T'Pol and Phlox (and Shran but don't tell him I said that)

Yeah I think that was my assumption : You don't really need more than a handful of bold characters providing a good dynamic in whatever science fiction story of the week you have, TOS coasted by on this despite the writing being really hamfisted sometimes. It only gets better the wider the amount of characters working you have at your disposal and Voyager and Enterprise fell a little short there.

[MMaRsu]

Rick and Morty talk about Star Trek: Picard's emotional finale and embarrassing conclusion. What does it all means? How does they all get to the end of the show while having all the feels and crying butterfly tears? Finally! Patrick Stewart had his say in the direction of Star Trek. He got to act and have all the character moments he always wanted! The result: A turd the size of the moon fell on my face. He rubbed his old shit in my mouth and told me that Picard's mother hanging herself was this moment in his past that made his character not have all the feels and cry butterfly tears all these years later. WOW! What a deep, complex emotional story! I farted butterfly farts! I had to watch the whole season while wearing diapers because I was shitting blood.

 

[D3RANG3D]

Watched the third episode of Shart Trek SNW and it's another serviceable episode but seriously can we stop with the edgy back stories already, how many people statistically with such backstories would you have one on a single ship. 

spoiler (click to show/hide)

And get some lighting on those sets! 

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[VomKriege]

Edgier than Tasha Yar ?

[D3RANG3D]

Edgier than Tasha Yar ?

No, but didn't they walk it back on the episode where they met up with Tasha's sister and she said her sister was crazy?

The backstories so far:

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Uhura's family was killed.

Soong was bullied for being Khan's descendant so she hates augmented people and feels outrage at Una for being a secret augment who is also her savior.

Soong was a Gorn captive which are now rapey anime space orks who not only rape but eat other species so I guess this one is probably as edgy as Tasha's.

Una is an augmented human which is a no-no in the Federation/Star Fleet. 

Dr. M'Benga has a terminally ill daughter who he is hiding in the medical transporters pattern buffer.

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[MMaRsu]

Watched the third episode of Shart Trek SNW and it's another serviceable episode but seriously can we stop with the edgy back stories already, how many people statistically with such backstories would you have one on a single ship. 

spoiler (click to show/hide)

And get some lighting on those sets! 

[close]

I know right? Jesus christ does everyone need to have a tragic backstory? LMAO so ridiculous. I havent met a single crew member who was just like yeah I wanted to join the federation and my past is pretty great. Maybe they'd be boring because they'd be like Ensign Kim though.

Miles better than anything Discovery or Picard tho

[VomKriege]

That's just something I thought for 25 seconds but on average I'd say the TNG cast ended up having the most tragic backstories (Word war orphan, Crusher dead husband, Troi and Riker some heavy duty parental issues, etc), but it's also a matter of tone. DS9 too but some of it wasn't so much backstory than ongoing plot.

[D3RANG3D]

Maybe I'm complaining to complain but they try to force emotional payoffs in the Shart Trek verse out of nowhere for these characters that were barely characters that people don't give a shit about.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

One that sticks out is the robutt chick from STD who died and we were supposed to care when she only had a few lines of dialogue if I remember correctly. 

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A lot of those back stories were barely touched on in old Trek sure they might mention them here and there and basically go over it with a fine tooth comb a few seasons later when we give a shit about the characters so it has an emotional payoff.

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One example is Worf he played football as a youth and killed someone during a game that's why he always seems conflicted about expressing himself this was revealed late in TNG or on DS9 I don't remember.

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This isn't just relegated to just Shart Trek it's modern movies and tv that don't seem to understand this basic concept.

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[VomKriege]

Of course tone and presentation matters a lot, I've only seen excerpts of current Trek edited for demonstration but for sure they didn't hit those notes in the same way, it was a lot more... clinical in TNG.

[Uncle]

this is probably a broader subject than anyone will want to talk about in this thread but I've been thinking about how often long arcs filled with D R A M A have fucked up TV shows recently

I think the realities of long-form filming and actor entanglements and writers changing jobs have made it so that long arcs just can't survive any initial planning process they go through

I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say that shows all need to be monster-of-the-week episodic, but I just wonder if maybe modern writers should assess whether they can really stick the landing or not

every other finale has been falling flat since game of thrones, I'm at the point where I get annoyed at the very prospect of setting up a mystery box because I know they're not going to follow through on a plan and it's going to be stupid in the end

some of the best episodes of all trek shows have been one-offs, plan out your story, have a beginning middle and end, call it done

 

[Tasty]

Buffy was in the middle of that initial wave of network TV going hard on season-long arcs. Back then it seemed like everything was so fricking serialized, the season arc felt fresh...

Nowadays it's basically a given. I'm not sure I prefer serialized TV generally, certain series like Star Trek and Black Mirror do it pretty well but it depends on the series. Overall I enjoy digging into characters and plot but like everything it has to be well written.

[Nintex]

The only 2 long running shows that come to mind that nailed the ending were Homeland (after 2 dissapointing seasons prior to the final season no less) and Breaking Bad.
The final season of Better Call Saul is great so far too.

Lots of other shows ended up getting rushed to the finish line prior to the GoT season finale like Boardwalk Empire.
GoT sorta set a new standard for ending a show in the worst imaginable way.

Shorter shows with just 1 or 2 seasons usually manage to do better.
The problem is usually that the writers 'finish' their 2nd or 3rd season with a grand spectacle but then it continues sort of aimlessly.
Disney Marvel (although not just a TV Show) has the same problem after Endgame. 

[VomKriege]

I suppose I must be wrong because it's obviously not done but you'd think there would be room for a good sci-fi anthology, mostly episodic and self contained series in current formats... Having the best of both worlds with shorter seasons cutting down the chaff and filler you had in 20+ episodes per season of old television and a little more budget to explore more elaborate loaf than "ridges on nose and foreheads".

But the Twilight Zone reboot was a downer so I suppose it's easier said than told.

I guess the TLDR is "The Orville".

[D3RANG3D]

Speaking of which Season 3 starts June 2nd.

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

I think I've said this before, but something like Burn Notice had pretty much the perfect setup / balance between season long arc and monster of the week procedural; if your setup has the heroes doing a regular job that involves investigating unusual things and helping people on the way (which fucking star trek should have built in as writers guide point 1, ffs) then you can have whatever the fuck season long arc mystery box you want, you just need to progress towards that slightly as part of your weekly resolution.

The real problem is that their story arcs are pretty shit to begin with, and paper over that with MYSTERY which means everything else has to go full r*tard so that the shitty overall plot can accomodate the MYSTERY.
This isn't a problem based on things like not knowing for sure they're getting another season, because it is entirely fucking possible to write an interesting storyline that can be meaningfully concluded in one season, but also open doors to additional storylines once completed. Its that the writers really aren't very good. They're either making it up as they go along, or they just don't give a fuck about a meaningful narrative where events have internal logical consistency.

There's quite a few shows where you can see the writers had like... a solid 3 season arc, and things got a little bloaty and unneccessary when they kept going into season 4 and beyond, and its only the fans who continue sticking around, but I think more shows land 'an ending' when they can than don't.
Nothing about Discovery or Picard suggests the writers even talked to each other between episodes, let alone have any fucking clue what the story they wanted to tell was. Because they didn't have one. They just had AWESOME CHARACTERS BEING AWESOME for their own pet definitions of awesome and flung shit at a wall, as far as I can tell.

[benjipwns]

I'd actually criticize Burn Notice as too formulaic after the first couple seasons for my taste. The plot never truly advanced outside of the season premiere, the midseason break cliffhanger episode and the season finale. It was always something Michael had to spend a few minutes on that might complicate the story of the week or vice versa. But part of that also was because after they lept up to Management Frasier's Dad they struggled to sustain the Big Bads of every season culminating in the complete collapse of the show at the end.

That said, the USA programs of the era like Burn Notice, White Collar, Suits, etc. were better than many at finding that balance in general even if every season didn't. Though probably the best run of that whole era was Covert Affairs finding its feet by ditching the story of the week, all the previous dumb ongoing plots and establishing some actual stakes that seemed to redirect everything to write its way to a climax.

[Tuckers Law]

I loved Burn Notice, but it definitely relied too much on its formula for overall story.  I don’t know that it could have ever pulled off an incredible Hannibal-esque mid-season redirect, but it would have been nice to see the story grow a little more organically.

[VomKriege]

Every annoying Trek fan knows about Geordi - Leah extreme cringe arc but I always forget how the second episode ends up a lot... less critical one might think.

Warning extreme care post :
https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/comments/m7ig3k/galaxys_child_is_a_severely_misunderstood_episode/

It's still a little weird to me the show sorta went "well yeah they could get married ultimately !", really muddies the "projecting : don't do it fellas" part.



Those reaction shots
Science officer in the background doesn't care though.

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

Yeah, I specifically namechecked Burn Notice as an example of a show whose basic premise could potentially be strung along forever, but in practice only had 3 or so seasons worth of ideas of what to do with it and things start getting stale / formulaic after a really enjoyable first few seasons that people really liked.

Because lets be clear, that is very definitely not the position nuTrek finds itself in.

[Tuckers Law]

I gotta give them credit: of the two Nu-Trek shows I've watched, their formula for each is very concise.

Discovery formula: Michael Burnham is space jesus and best at everything.

And for Picard's formula:

[Tasty]

I think I've finally realized the problem with NuTrek is the producers are too old and the writers are too young.

Ideally that would be flipped, could lead to some interesting ideas and well-written execution.

[Tuckers Law]

It would most certainly help if the writers could write good material, even with crap producers.

[Tasty]

A+ thumbnail

[chronovore]

People say "use your art to make your dreams reality," but that thumbnail is proof that they shouldn't.

[MMaRsu]

A new worlds episode! lets see whose tragic backstory we'll see today!

[MMaRsu]

"Why is that blip so much bigger?"

ADR line from someone on the fucking bridge crew...

 

[VomKriege]

I know Star Trek is at heart naval but 2d imaging still
Listening to some podcast about the end of DS9 and in retrospect they really rush the conclusion in that series. I understand it can't be helped and I enjoyed it just fine for what it was but you always want good character moments for a great ensemble cast and I suppose books are a much better vessel if you need that sort of space.

Also looked at a couple sequences of Babylon 5, which is a show I haven't seen in a couple decades and boy... That's rough. The camera work especially felt super flat, with a bunch of lifeless master shots. The Star Trek shows have sometimes issues with production value but I didn't expect such a wide gap on revisiting. The acting also meh apart from Katsulas who really crushes it.

[D3RANG3D]

A new worlds episode! lets see whose tragic backstory we'll see today!

No new tragic backstories surprisingly. 

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

Also looked at a couple sequences of Babylon 5, which is a show I haven't seen in a couple decades and boy... That's rough. The camera work especially felt super flat, with a bunch of lifeless master shots. The Star Trek shows have sometimes issues with production value but I didn't expect such a wide gap on revisiting. The acting also meh apart from Katsulas who really crushes it.

Which is absolutely a testament to the writing that it still holds up despite the shoddy vfx work and hugely variable acting chops. Same deal as classic Doctor Who tbh (which suffers even worse on the production side of things, but generally better on the acting side of things, even though it regularly veers into huge Stage Ham territory)

[MMaRsu]

It was a decent episode. I really like Pike and Spock

[VomKriege]

Also looked at a couple sequences of Babylon 5, which is a show I haven't seen in a couple decades and boy... That's rough. The camera work especially felt super flat, with a bunch of lifeless master shots. The Star Trek shows have sometimes issues with production value but I didn't expect such a wide gap on revisiting. The acting also meh apart from Katsulas who really crushes it.

Which is absolutely a testament to the writing that it still holds up despite the shoddy vfx work and hugely variable acting chops. Same deal as classic Doctor Who tbh (which suffers even worse on the production side of things, but generally better on the acting side of things, even though it regularly veers into huge Stage Ham territory)

Classic Who (or Who in general) is never something I dipped into though I'm a little familiar with it and I know it was long synonymous with the BBC attempting to stretch centimeters into miles in the SFX and music department. I don't think bad VFX is necessarily a deal breaker, it was expected of any TV show really, but I kept... rosier memories.
Trek has all those issues in spade too but I have a newfound appreciation of how it has a smaller delta of variance, shall we say. Not that there's an incredible mystery there, people often quote that B5 episodes had roughly half the budget of DS9.

(Stage Ham... Did someone say Brian Blessed ?)

[D3RANG3D]

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[D3RANG3D]

Watched the first episode of The Orville...a pretty serious episode about post war hate/grief.

Everything got upgrades in tech/uniforms, but I am a little worried that they might have changed the tone of the show from the goofy Trek spoof to being totally serious from now on since there was little to no humor in this episode, when in the past they would have a tense scene only to get sucker punched by poop and/or dick joke.

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Yaphit was in this so...Norm McDonald was in this episode. 

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[D3RANG3D]

Shart Trek SNW Ep 5 my favorite episode so far, it handled the body swap meme way better than TOS did lol.

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

for Bork who didn't believe us when we talked about beverly crusher getting fucked by scottish ghosts in the previous thread

[Tuckers Law]

What an awful, awful episode of Star Trek.  It may just be the worst ever standalone episode in Trek.

[MMaRsu]

[benjipwns]

What an awful, awful episode of Star Trek.  It may just be the worst ever standalone episode in Trek.

The writers and producers loved it:

Braga noted the show was not popular among who he dubbed "hard-core fans". "I've come to notice that whenever you infuse a show with sexual themes, some of these fans seem to short-circuit. I mean, the weather array malfunction causing thunderstorms – it was fun!" (Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion (? ed., p. ?))

René Echevarria recalled, "I can still reduce Brannon to shudders when I go into his office and say, 'I can travel on the power transfer beam'. But the cast loved it. Every woman on the lot who read it was coming up to Brannon and patting him. Ultimately I think it was worth doing because it was campy fun and the production values were wonderful. The sets look great and everybody threw themselves into it. Gates did a wonderful job. It just got bigger and broader and to the point of grandmother leaping out of the grave. Just having Beverly basically writhing around having an orgasm at 6 o'clock on family TV was great. For that alone it was worth doing. We got away with murder." (Captains' Logs: The Unauthorized Complete Trek Voyages)

Ronald D. Moore stated, "I kinda liked it. I thought it was good to try a different genre on TNG and mix things up a little. It's not a perfect show by any means, but I'm glad we did it." (AOL chat, 1997)

Braga commented, "It was the best performance I've ever seen. I just thought she did a wonderful job. Picard catches Beverly masturbating for crying out loud! What a tough role to play. When I was writing the words, 'She writhes around in the bed having invisible sex,' I just thought, 'Oh man, we're asking for trouble. Are they gonna be able to pull this off?' Thanks to [director] Jonathan Frakes and Gates, it was not hokey. It was very good. Look, I scripted the first orgasm in "The Game". This was mild by comparison. Sure it was racy. Even Rick Berman had said, 'I can't believe we're doing this.' I think they trimmed quite a bit out of the writhing sequences." (Captains' Logs: The Unauthorized Complete Trek Voyages)

At an Austin, Texas convention in 2012, Gates McFadden stated she wasn't very fond of this episode. "I was basically in love with a lamp! This woman is a doctor and falls in love with a lamp! How the hell does that work?"

[Tasty]

It was very good.

[citation needed]

[Madrun Badrun]

[Madrun Badrun]