Author Topic: Is the world burning?  (Read 355893 times)

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Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1140 on: June 01, 2020, 07:41:08 PM »
What tv show do you think Biden is watching in his basement right now?

Hopefully The Last Airbender, he probably missed out on it when it first aired.

Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1141 on: June 01, 2020, 07:45:53 PM »
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1267602006279024640

"Do you bite your thumb at me, sir?"

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1142 on: June 01, 2020, 07:50:18 PM »
Surprised they didn't include some trophy protestors. 


thisismyusername

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Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1145 on: June 01, 2020, 08:06:41 PM »
213372bu's tired of Third Way Clintonite horserace centrist idpol MSM neoliberalism and is ready to burn it all down until his posts get likes.

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1146 on: June 01, 2020, 08:08:14 PM »
"No quarter"? Mass domestic murder 'dogwhistles' are the move now for GOP?
This is the part where a Bore poster quotes me with:

"As if they only just began doing that  :lol "

and gets 11 more likes than me  :maf

11 more than zero is still zero since numbers are just opinions. 


CatsCatsCats

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1148 on: June 01, 2020, 08:10:12 PM »
"No quarter"? Mass domestic murder 'dogwhistles' are the move now for GOP?
This is the part where a Bore poster quotes me with:

"As if they only just began doing that  :lol "

and gets 11 more likes than me  :maf

Likes cannot be chased down, they have to be attracted

Kestastrophe

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1149 on: June 01, 2020, 08:12:34 PM »
that 2A reference though. my dude is a few months away from letting boogaloo groyper guys be the freikorps against people who use picrew avatars

I need to stop making cursed posts :titus

https://twitter.com/MattZeitlin/status/1267600479703482368

 :kobeyuck
jon

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1150 on: June 01, 2020, 08:12:48 PM »
"No quarter"? Mass domestic murder 'dogwhistles' are the move now for GOP?

As if they only just began doing that :lol
©@©™

Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1151 on: June 01, 2020, 08:20:04 PM »
Someone call in the National Guard to kettle the other forums thread.

thisismyusername

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1152 on: June 01, 2020, 08:20:43 PM »
"No quarter"? Mass domestic murder 'dogwhistles' are the move now for GOP?

As if they only just began doing that.  :lol

Edit: GODDAMN IT, JOE.

Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1153 on: June 01, 2020, 08:22:49 PM »
Was warned about being outflanked by Tom Cotton, didn't realize it would be with an actual cavalry unit.


GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1155 on: June 01, 2020, 08:31:35 PM »
But in seriousness, I have not seen a single actionable plan about how to achieve police reform, except for maybe reinstating Obama's demilitarization stuff.  It's crazy how everyone in the media can simultaneously agree that racism is bad and structural but don't engage with the question of how to change that.   And in an election year, you think that would be the first thing that happens.  Shame the Dem primaries finished when they did.

The only thing that can fix it is pouring an absolute fucking ton of money into policing; training, graduate career programs, higher wages, more ancillary staff, structural changes. If you don't want to attract the kind of people that get off on exerting authority over people, you have to make it an attractive career for normal people.

But how is anyone going to put that into a manifesto without it looking like rewarding them for their bad behaviour?
Or justify pouring money into the police over things like urban regeneration, education or healthcare?

Positive Touch

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1156 on: June 01, 2020, 08:34:48 PM »
the left is pushing abolition, not reform
pcp

Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1157 on: June 01, 2020, 08:42:11 PM »
I think I saw that the NYPD officer who pushed the woman down and called her a bitch made ~$250k last year.

Jobs in security will always attract guys who are, let's say a bit too comfortable physically exerting authority over other people.

GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1158 on: June 01, 2020, 08:44:58 PM »
The cops make a lot of money anyway, NYPD has a budget of 6 BILLION apparently. The issue isn't just who it attracts. What you really need is consequences for abuse of power in the position and actual punishment. As it stans cops are above the law, it's not about whether normal people join in or not.

Thats what structural change means.
If you don't have people concerned about improving community relations running things and you give them a bigger budget, they'll just spend it on new toys like cars and helicopters, not on things like recruiting people with backgrounds in sociology or behavioural psychology to come up with new operational methods.

e: Like, if you have people already doing the job a certain way ask for more money, they will spend it on things to make their jobs easier. What the money needs to be spent on is on doing the job better.

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1159 on: June 01, 2020, 08:45:02 PM »
If you can designate Antifa a terrorist organization you can designate the NYPD as one.  Hope you guys get a lefty president that can abuse terror laws someday. 

Tasty

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1160 on: June 01, 2020, 08:45:15 PM »
Where the fuck is Kara

Liking my Evangelion tweets. :heart

Uncle

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1161 on: June 01, 2020, 08:45:26 PM »
I think I saw that the NYPD officer who pushed the woman down and called her a bitch made ~$250k last year.

Jobs in security will always attract guys who are, let's say a bit too comfortable physically exerting authority over other people.

 :brain mandatory all petite female police force nationwide  :brain
Uncle

Tasty

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1162 on: June 01, 2020, 08:46:51 PM »



Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1165 on: June 01, 2020, 08:48:00 PM »

Tasty

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GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1167 on: June 01, 2020, 09:17:10 PM »
Thats what structural change means.
No. To be only slightly tautological... structural change must change the structure of policing. You can't just do the Biden plan and take the racist bits out (because it's not possible), you need to do fundamentally alter the de jure relationship that police have with the community. You need to disarm the police, mandate what percent of the budget can go into new equipment, you need to set up expedient community recall procedures, you need to abolish their unions, you need to repeal qualified immunity, you need to enforce the community residence requirement which is routinely violated, you need body camera laws in every state, you need drug decriminalizations, you need to get rid of ticket quotas and all the other harassment beats, you need to get rid of cash bail, etc. etc. etc. That is what's meant by STRUCTURAL change.

This is why I get so annoyed when mainstream politicians all pay lip service to ending "systemic racism" and then say absolutely nothing consequential. What is it about the SYSTEM - the abstract relationship between sovereign and citizen, all the moving parts and procedures that make up the institution of criminal justice - that is being changed which will make it less racist? These words we use are specific and their specific meanings matter greatly.

If things like passing sensitivity training and non-lethal takedown procedures are as mandatory as fitness checks or firearms training, the kind of person that is in it mostly to exert power over others is going to quit or be flunked out. Realistically you can't disarm the police without disarming the populace. I live in a country where guns are difficult to obtain, and extremely heavily legislated against with severe penalties for ownership, but still have an armed police force. As long as you have the 2nd amendment interpreted as it currently is, you just don't get the luxury of having armed police only deployed surgically, unfortunately.

Qualified immunity should be - as the name implies - qualified, not a blanket shield against all actions.
Yes, body cameras should be mandatory in all districts, and having 'malfunctioning' equipment should be assumed to be negligence, with the corresponding loss of coverage of things like legal protections or insurance. If your body camera mysteriously breaks down right before a suspect gets executed, you should face the consequences of that as a private citizen.

Things like decriminalising drugs or community residency I don't see as being particularly big factors tbh.
Communities in bad areas don't want junkies or drug dealers on their streets, and would rather see police not from their area than having no police presence at all.
People living in bad neighbourhoods aren't upset there's too many police there. They're upset they only show up when things get really bad. Better community policing doesn't mean only having people who live there policing things; it means having people there enough that they can think of them as part of the community.
Likewise you can have better treatment of drug addicts by pushing for detox programs over imprisonment without making heroin legal or permitting drug dealers free reign.

BisMarckie

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1168 on: June 01, 2020, 09:18:56 PM »
https://twitter.com/ajitxsingh/status/1267533879797149696

clearly what this man needs is more money

I assume his argument is that by offering better pay, you would attract different demographics in the long term.

thisismyusername

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1169 on: June 01, 2020, 09:32:29 PM »
Thats what structural change means.
No. To be only slightly tautological... structural change must change the structure of policing. You can't just do the Biden plan and take the racist bits out (because it's not possible), you need to do fundamentally alter the de jure relationship that police have with the community. You need to disarm the police, mandate what percent of the budget can go into new equipment, you need to set up expedient community recall procedures, you need to abolish their unions, you need to repeal qualified immunity, you need to enforce the community residence requirement which is routinely violated, you need body camera laws in every state, you need drug decriminalizations, you need to get rid of ticket quotas and all the other harassment beats, you need to get rid of cash bail, etc. etc. etc. That is what's meant by STRUCTURAL change.

This is why I get so annoyed when mainstream politicians all pay lip service to ending "systemic racism" and then say absolutely nothing consequential. What is it about the SYSTEM - the abstract relationship between sovereign and citizen, all the moving parts and procedures that make up the institution of criminal justice - that is being changed which will make it less racist? These words we use are specific and their specific meanings matter greatly.

If things like passing sensitivity training and non-lethal takedown procedures are as mandatory as fitness checks or firearms training, the kind of person that is in it mostly to exert power over others is going to quit or be flunked out. Realistically you can't disarm the police without disarming the populace. I live in a country where guns are difficult to obtain, and extremely heavily legislated against with severe penalties for ownership, but still have an armed police force. As long as you have the 2nd amendment interpreted as it currently is, you just don't get the luxury of having armed police only deployed surgically, unfortunately.

Qualified immunity should be - as the name implies - qualified, not a blanket shield against all actions.
Yes, body cameras should be mandatory in all districts, and having 'malfunctioning' equipment should be assumed to be negligence, with the corresponding loss of coverage of things like legal protections or insurance. If your body camera mysteriously breaks down right before a suspect gets executed, you should face the consequences of that as a private citizen.

Things like decriminalising drugs or community residency I don't see as being particularly big factors tbh.
Communities in bad areas don't want junkies or drug dealers on their streets, and would rather see police not from their area than having no police presence at all.
People living in bad neighbourhoods aren't upset there's too many police there. They're upset they only show up when things get really bad. Better community policing doesn't mean only having people who live there policing things; it means having people there enough that they can think of them as part of the community.
Likewise you can have better treatment of drug addicts by pushing for detox programs over imprisonment without making heroin legal or permitting drug dealers free reign.

Thanks for the quick finding on this post:



"Just pay them more! It'll attract more than the power-hungry! Just drop the second amendment! It'll lower the guns to defend yourself with over the pigs that use them on you for thinking YOU HAVE A FUCKING GUN despite not conceal carrying or having a history of owning one! (Oh, or just being black and them being white and looking to murder someone!)"


Quote
People living in bad neighbourhoods aren't upset there's too many police there. They're upset they only show up when things get really bad. Better community policing doesn't mean only having people who live there policing things; it means having people there enough that they can think of them as part of the community.

They're "upset," because they're being profiled just like the people that live their that are making the drugs. Ever heard of the "War on Drugs?" Yeah, that's been a dismal failure. You can throw more money at the problem (getting more DEA/agents) but that doesn't solve the issue (drug dealers just move and/or get more crafty)

It's the same with brutality: Paying folks more isn't suddenly going to get folks like the cop that murdered George to lay off. They'll just get PAID MORE until they find a chance to kill someone that looks at them wrong.

"So do sensitivity training!"

They do that. Often. It doesn't work if the people that want to kill don't listen and/or are paranoid that the next black person they meet will pull a gun/knife/whatever on them and shoot first instead of asking questions.

Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1170 on: June 01, 2020, 09:35:02 PM »
If things like passing sensitivity training and non-lethal takedown procedures are as mandatory as fitness checks or firearms training, the kind of person that is in it mostly to exert power over others is going to quit or be flunked out.

Nobody actually gets weeded out of a job by flunking HR training courses unless they're functionally illiterate.

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1171 on: June 01, 2020, 09:41:27 PM »
People still use facebook? It's 2020 and your facebook profile is probably 3 degrees from the Antifa leaders dude.

Uncle

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1172 on: June 01, 2020, 09:43:06 PM »
If things like passing sensitivity training and non-lethal takedown procedures are as mandatory as fitness checks or firearms training, the kind of person that is in it mostly to exert power over others is going to quit or be flunked out.

Nobody actually gets weeded out of a job by flunking HR training courses unless they're functionally illiterate.

yeah seriously, you watch the sexual harassment training video and joke with your buddy the entire time how fucking hot the lawyer is :drool and then you lie on the test to pass it
Uncle

Uncle

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1173 on: June 01, 2020, 09:54:47 PM »
Just like the photo op at the church that he didn't ask or notify anyone associated with the church that he was going to do.

the end of his speech was goofball as shit

"now I'm going to go pay my respects to a very very special place"

sounded like he might be talking about the site of the murder!
 :titus
Uncle

GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1174 on: June 01, 2020, 09:55:28 PM »
"Just drop the second amendment! It'll lower the guns to defend yourself with over the pigs that use them on you for thinking YOU HAVE A FUCKING GUN despite not conceal carrying or having a history of owning one! (Oh, or just being black and them being white and looking to murder someone!)"

:confused

I don't know how you read that from what I said.

Yeah, you guys should abso-fucking-lutely not interpret the second amendment to mean everyone should have a right to own guns, but what I was saying was predicated on Americas absolute reluctance to concede that, not assuming that would ever happen.

Uncle

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1175 on: June 01, 2020, 09:58:21 PM »
realistically what happens to military personnel if they refuse to shoot civilians

court-martialed?

if it came to that I don't foresee any of them refusing since obeying orders and chain of command is so drilled in
Uncle

Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1176 on: June 01, 2020, 09:59:43 PM »
I don't have the polling handy but the armed forces are a lot less right-leaning than police in this country.

Boredfrom

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1177 on: June 01, 2020, 10:04:51 PM »
the left is pushing abolition, not reform

 :brain

Boredfrom

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1178 on: June 01, 2020, 10:07:14 PM »
If you can designate Antifa a terrorist organization you can designate the NYPD as one.  Hope you guys get a lefty president that can abuse terror laws someday.

Hold on, you are not from the US?

GreatSageEqualOfHeaven

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1179 on: June 01, 2020, 10:07:16 PM »
realistically what happens to military personnel if they refuse to shoot civilians

court-martialed?

if it came to that I don't foresee any of them refusing since obeying orders and chain of command is so drilled in

An actual military coup has to be at least a possibility if people higher up the chain of command are prepared to deny the legitimacy of their orders

bluemax

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1180 on: June 01, 2020, 10:07:26 PM »
But in seriousness, I have not seen a single actionable plan about how to achieve police reform, except for maybe reinstating Obama's demilitarization stuff.  It's crazy how everyone in the media can simultaneously agree that racism is bad and structural but don't engage with the question of how to change that.   And in an election year, you think that would be the first thing that happens.  Shame the Dem primaries finished when they did.

The only thing that can fix it is pouring an absolute fucking ton of money into policing; training, graduate career programs, higher wages, more ancillary staff, structural changes. If you don't want to attract the kind of people that get off on exerting authority over people, you have to make it an attractive career for normal people.

But how is anyone going to put that into a manifesto without it looking like rewarding them for their bad behaviour?
Or justify pouring money into the police over things like urban regeneration, education or healthcare?

Defund the police.
NO

Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1181 on: June 01, 2020, 10:08:39 PM »
If you can designate Antifa a terrorist organization you can designate the NYPD as one.  Hope you guys get a lefty president that can abuse terror laws someday.

Hold on, you are not from the US?

canadian

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1182 on: June 01, 2020, 10:10:06 PM »
But my online self identifies American, when convenient. 

Uncle

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Uncle

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1184 on: June 01, 2020, 10:11:50 PM »
I've been watching CNN for the first time in years - or any American news network.  I think I'm starting to understand why America is so fucked up.  You guys need more BBC in your lives.   

Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1185 on: June 01, 2020, 10:12:38 PM »
You guys need more BBC in your lives.

okay but where should we get our news?

Boredfrom

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1186 on: June 01, 2020, 10:13:20 PM »
But my online self identifies American, when convenient.

Uh...

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1187 on: June 01, 2020, 10:13:53 PM »
You guys need more BBC in your lives.

okay but where should we get our news?

CBC

Boredfrom

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1188 on: June 01, 2020, 10:14:21 PM »
I've been watching CNN for the first time in years - or any American news network.  I think I'm starting to understand why America is so fucked up.  You guys need more BBC in your lives.

Eh... didn’t BBC had some big controversies this past decade?

kingv

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1189 on: June 01, 2020, 10:14:54 PM »
I don't have the polling handy but the armed forces are a lot less right-leaning than police in this country.

Fighting in an endless war that’s been going on since before you were old enough to remember will do that.

Boredfrom

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1190 on: June 01, 2020, 10:16:37 PM »
But my online self identifies American, when convenient.

Uh...

He means using websites and VPN's, dude

Ah, okay. It weird me out because Canada is in the American continent...

Boredfrom

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1191 on: June 01, 2020, 10:17:55 PM »
Fighting in an endless war that’s been going on since before you were old enough to remember will do that.
This helps but I think it has more to do with the fact that it's just harder to get into the police than the military, and the military has better benefits.

Wait, what?

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1192 on: June 01, 2020, 10:18:01 PM »
I've been watching CNN for the first time in years - or any American news network.  I think I'm starting to understand why America is so fucked up.  You guys need more BBC in your lives.

Eh... didn’t BBC had some big controversies this past decade?

If the BBC spent one day acting as partisan and biased as CNN, that would be their biggest scandal yet and they covered up that their most famous children's' performer was a child rapist for decades. 

Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1193 on: June 01, 2020, 10:19:26 PM »
I've been watching CNN for the first time in years - or any American news network.  I think I'm starting to understand why America is so fucked up.  You guys need more BBC in your lives.

Eh... didn’t BBC had some big controversies this past decade?

Sure has.

kingv

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1194 on: June 01, 2020, 10:19:33 PM »
But in seriousness, I have not seen a single actionable plan about how to achieve police reform, except for maybe reinstating Obama's demilitarization stuff.  It's crazy how everyone in the media can simultaneously agree that racism is bad and structural but don't engage with the question of how to change that.   And in an election year, you think that would be the first thing that happens.  Shame the Dem primaries finished when they did.

The only thing that can fix it is pouring an absolute fucking ton of money into policing; training, graduate career programs, higher wages, more ancillary staff, structural changes. If you don't want to attract the kind of people that get off on exerting authority over people, you have to make it an attractive career for normal people.

But how is anyone going to put that into a manifesto without it looking like rewarding them for their bad behaviour?
Or justify pouring money into the police over things like urban regeneration, education or healthcare?

Defund the police.

The idea thst police need more money is crazy. They need less military gear, and need to lose qualified immunity.

Boredfrom

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1195 on: June 01, 2020, 10:19:54 PM »
I've been watching CNN for the first time in years - or any American news network.  I think I'm starting to understand why America is so fucked up.  You guys need more BBC in your lives.

Eh... didn’t BBC had some big controversies this past decade?

If the BBC spent one day acting as partisan and biased as CNN, that would be their biggest scandal yet and they covered up that their most famous children's' performer was a child rapist for decades.

 :doge

BisMarckie

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1196 on: June 01, 2020, 10:20:28 PM »
You guys need more BBC in your lives.

okay but where should we get our news?

Mandark fishing for filler likes. :wag

Madrun Badrun

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kingv

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1198 on: June 01, 2020, 10:25:15 PM »
Only got 1 :-(

bluemax

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1199 on: June 01, 2020, 10:27:47 PM »
I don't have the polling handy but the armed forces are a lot less right-leaning than police in this country.

Fighting in an endless war that’s been going on since before you were old enough to remember will do that.

NO