Author Topic: Is the world burning?  (Read 251040 times)

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Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1620 on: June 02, 2020, 09:49:31 PM »
We're talking about morale within the administration and unfortunately I don't think they were too broken up about PR.

Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1621 on: June 02, 2020, 09:53:38 PM »
i think it was the guys over at commonweal (i know, i know) who speculated a month or so back that november was gonna be not just a pulse check on the current administration, but a referendum on the future direction of the gop and american conservatism. as in, to what extent they both get trumpified. with public opinion where it is now and with past conservative bonafides like dubya who have no skin in the game anymore able to coast on that public opinion, the past week feels to me like it’s supercharged the referendum interpretation.

To answer with a question: how are we defining "Trumpified?"

shosta

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1622 on: June 02, 2020, 09:58:43 PM »
that's probably a good question. I remember people were debating this in 2016 by noting Trump wasn't a conservative but others pointed out that he was comfortably part of a long tradition of boisterous crypto-racist nationalism like Sean Hannity, Phyllis Schlafly, Limbaugh...
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Great Rumbler

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1623 on: June 02, 2020, 10:02:25 PM »
Quote from: Wikipedia
Schlafly died of cancer on September 5, 2016, at her home in Ladue, Missouri, at the age of 92, going to the bad place immediately.

:heh
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jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1624 on: June 02, 2020, 10:07:42 PM »
To answer with a question: how are we defining "Trumpified?"
iirc, it was: economic nationalism + explicit white identitarianism.

and im gonna anticipate your response by saying these aren’t exactly characteristics unique to trump and have existed in the gop for decades.

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1625 on: June 02, 2020, 10:19:48 PM »
The protests are starting to look like permitted dissent. 

shosta

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1626 on: June 02, 2020, 10:43:49 PM »
More principled lolbertarianism
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Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1627 on: June 02, 2020, 10:44:33 PM »
iirc, it was: economic nationalism + explicit white identitarianism.

and im gonna anticipate your response by saying these aren’t exactly characteristics unique to trump and have existed in the gop for decades.

It's a good question.

I think you can reframe it as a tactical question: do you still buy the logic of the Emerging Democratic Majority and the post-2012 GOP autopsy or do you think Trump's win in 2016 was a blueprint? That is, you've got a core of angry white guys who are shrinking as a percent of the population. Do you moderate on substance and/or tone to broaden your base, or do you rely on taking an even larger share of white guys while getting real aggressive on the procedural side of things (gerrymandering, disenfranchisement, NC/WI style shenanigans) to maintain power?

I think the last two Republican campaigns for governor in Virginia work decently as avatars for the two approaches. Ken Cuccinelli had a very right-wing record regarding gay rights, abortion, immigration, climate change, etc. but his campaign (in the wake of Romney's loss) clearly decided they needed to soften his image for the general election and mostly ran ads about how he'd fix traffic. In 2017, after Trump's win, they ran Ed Gillespie, consummate party insider: former high powered lobbyist, RNC chair, GWB advisor. In the primaries he beat out Corey Stewart who campaigned on preserving confederate heritage. In the general Gillespie, the establishment candidate, ran on a Trumpy platform of telling voters that MS-13 were going to invade their homes and kill their families.

tiesto

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1628 on: June 02, 2020, 10:59:38 PM »
Had a rough night (dad died but don't want to hijack the thread). What did I miss? I heard police gassed priests?!

I just caught this now. I am so sorry to hear this. My condolences to you and your family.   :'(
^_^

bluemax

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Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1630 on: June 02, 2020, 11:09:09 PM »
https://www.twitch.tv/woke/

Seattle looks massive

Madrun Badrun

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shosta

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1632 on: June 02, 2020, 11:20:19 PM »
https://twitter.com/Ben_Pfeifer_/status/1268001713958449152

Willing to do this for Benji if he puts down his jrubinblogger tweets.
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Joe Molotov

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1633 on: June 02, 2020, 11:23:17 PM »
I wanted to see Cuty Dave’s reply.
©@©™

shosta

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1634 on: June 02, 2020, 11:25:52 PM »
I haven't found it yet but

https://twitter.com/AndyLeeParker1/status/1267941871709384704

:dead

edit: nobody took her up on the offer
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bork

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Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1636 on: June 02, 2020, 11:56:15 PM »
:lol CNN kicked off Terry Cruz for 'breaking news', took a whole minute to thank him and plug his Instagram, then showed 5 seconds of people getting arrested in LA before going to break

:dead

Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1637 on: June 02, 2020, 11:57:13 PM »
:lol CNN kicked off Terry Cruz for 'breaking news', took a whole minute to thank him and plug his Instagram, then showed 5 seconds of people getting arrested in LA before going to break

I don't know if this is Ted Cruz or Terry Crews.

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1638 on: June 03, 2020, 12:02:55 AM »
I mean the tall black senator from Texas. 

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1639 on: June 03, 2020, 12:05:01 AM »
Also as if Ted Crews feels safe coming out of whatever hole he lives in right now to go on CNN. 

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Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1642 on: June 03, 2020, 12:30:29 AM »
Killed by looters while defending his store

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1643 on: June 03, 2020, 12:33:45 AM »
https://streamable.com/9zxci3

police shot his phone

shosta

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1644 on: June 03, 2020, 12:38:59 AM »
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benjipwns

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1645 on: June 03, 2020, 12:42:24 AM »
Not nearly as awesome as if you got shot, fam.

Let's not go there.

Since when do mods not deserve to be shot?

The chaos and destruction in these threads from moderation is mass aggressive violence and should be put down with just defensive force, full stop. 

If you don't like the admin-brother sex scandal (d) and Steam keys bribery scandals (d), or any of the other zillion admins responsible for the conduct of its moderator force (again, allll d) and you live there and want to blame them for the moderator's action, then maybe post differently so you don't get the same results.  If you live there and you ban and edit shit though, then your actions are indefensible and should be made to stop by whatever force necessary. 

And that's just as regards the moderators in that forum jurisdiction... Moderators in other places banning and editing don't even have the slightest veneer of sympathy or justification, as if any reasonable justification could be derived from attacking a fourth party because you observed someone victimizing someone else... there is none.  The weakness and ineptitude on display in allowing this moderation to continue is inconceivable and repugnant.

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1646 on: June 03, 2020, 12:43:52 AM »

Cauliflower Of Love

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1647 on: June 03, 2020, 12:46:56 AM »
https://streamable.com/9zxci3

police shot his phone

That's crazy accuracy or a sniper dude

benjipwns

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1648 on: June 03, 2020, 12:50:41 AM »
produced Chinatown, trafficked cocaine, died last year
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 12:58:47 AM by benjipwns »

shosta

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1649 on: June 03, 2020, 01:02:25 AM »
Between the helicopter intimidation and that parking garage video I just realized the protests have morphed into a perverse circus act. Every night the police lead the protestors exactly where they want them and amuse themselves with their suffering. Spontaneous acts of violence. That guy getting a canister straight to the face. Trapping them on bridges and highways and tear gassing them for no reason. It's all just sick entertainment. At the behest of the media protesters have completely disciplined themselves not to defend themselves or do anything. They dance. We watch.
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remy

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1650 on: June 03, 2020, 01:02:37 AM »
I already hated cops due to only ever having shitty negative experiences with them, but after all this fucking brutality, can any sane regular person look at the police force and think they're there to protect and not oppress?  :doge

pls send me literature about how bullshit cops are.

naff

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1651 on: June 03, 2020, 01:05:14 AM »
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Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1652 on: June 03, 2020, 01:07:20 AM »
Between the helicopter intimidation and that parking garage video I just realized the protests have morphed into a perverse circus act. Every night the police lead the protestors exactly where they want them and amuse themselves with their suffering. Spontaneous acts of violence. That guy getting a canister straight to the face. Trapping them on bridges and highways and tear gassing them for no reason. It's all just sick entertainment. At the behest of the media protesters have completely disciplined themselves not to defend themselves or do anything. They dance. We watch.

This is what I meant when I said it has become permitted dissent.

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1653 on: June 03, 2020, 01:07:24 AM »
pls send me literature about how bullshit cops are.

remy

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1654 on: June 03, 2020, 01:07:32 AM »
man, this good vibes looting is making me want to play some D3

https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/comments/gvgl22/leaving_your_car_in_traffic_so_you_can_steal_some/
getting legendary boots from a footlocker :rash

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1655 on: June 03, 2020, 01:09:43 AM »
Between the helicopter intimidation and that parking garage video I just realized the protests have morphed into a perverse circus act. Every night the police lead the protestors exactly where they want them and amuse themselves with their suffering. Spontaneous acts of violence. That guy getting a canister straight to the face. Trapping them on bridges and highways and tear gassing them for no reason. It's all just sick entertainment. At the behest of the media protesters have completely disciplined themselves not to defend themselves or do anything. They dance. We watch.
it’s like everyone’s forgotten what stakes are. the most important political event in 10 years and it’s all just spectacle

shosta

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1656 on: June 03, 2020, 01:10:33 AM »
I already hated cops due to only ever having shitty negative experiences with them, but after all this fucking brutality, can any sane regular person look at the police force and think they're there to protect and not oppress?  :doge

pls send me literature about how bullshit cops are.
http://www.azioni.nl/platform/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Foucault-Security-Territory-Population.pdf
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naff

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1657 on: June 03, 2020, 01:10:53 AM »
man, this good vibes looting is making me want to play some D3

https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/comments/gvgl22/leaving_your_car_in_traffic_so_you_can_steal_some/
getting legendary boots from a footlocker :rash

if jaydubya got in my way i would happily give him a wedgie
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shosta

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1658 on: June 03, 2020, 01:11:57 AM »
it’s like everyone’s forgotten what stakes are. the most important political event in 10 years and it’s all just spectacle
I feel like the American public is at its core just one big captive audience. We watch everything and do nothing. Especially me, as a forums poster. #BlackoutTuesday
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Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1659 on: June 03, 2020, 01:16:56 AM »
Between the helicopter intimidation and that parking garage video I just realized the protests have morphed into a perverse circus act. Every night the police lead the protestors exactly where they want them and amuse themselves with their suffering. Spontaneous acts of violence. That guy getting a canister straight to the face. Trapping them on bridges and highways and tear gassing them for no reason. It's all just sick entertainment. At the behest of the media protesters have completely disciplined themselves not to defend themselves or do anything. They dance. We watch.
it’s like everyone’s forgotten what stakes are. the most important political event in 10 years and it’s all just spectacle

What do you guys think could be accomplished with the right tactics and how?

team filler

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1660 on: June 03, 2020, 01:19:14 AM »
Between the helicopter intimidation and that parking garage video I just realized the protests have morphed into a perverse circus act. Every night the police lead the protestors exactly where they want them and amuse themselves with their suffering. Spontaneous acts of violence. That guy getting a canister straight to the face. Trapping them on bridges and highways and tear gassing them for no reason. It's all just sick entertainment. At the behest of the media protesters have completely disciplined themselves not to defend themselves or do anything. They dance. We watch.
it’s like everyone’s forgotten what stakes are. the most important political event in 10 years and it’s all just spectacle

What do you guys think could be accomplished with the right tactics and how?
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Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1661 on: June 03, 2020, 01:20:04 AM »
Months of violent protests leading into the election would undo the law and order strategy for a start. 

team filler

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1662 on: June 03, 2020, 01:23:24 AM »
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BIONIC

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shosta

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1664 on: June 03, 2020, 01:34:39 AM »
What do you guys think could be accomplished with the right tactics and how?
I think you already know that criminal justice reform has been my pet issue for five years now so I'm big on the basic electoral stuff. Not enough people vote. Not enough people make specific, actionable demands. The existing movement is already good, it just falls into unpredictable snags like New Yorkers bringing back cash bail after a concerted disinformation campaign.

But violence is also a legitimate strategy when you're being murdered by the state. They did it right in Minneapolis (not the looting, I mean burning cop cars). The police murdered somebody and they burned down two precincts. That's a sustained and credible threat. "If you don't police us right, you won't police us at all." It worked because there were consequences. That's what Jake means by stakes. Going out there and finding a line of cops to scream at doesn't do anything. Volunteering to be a punching bag for some meatbrained sociopath doesn't do anything except prove what everyone already knows.
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Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1665 on: June 03, 2020, 01:38:27 AM »
So the win condition is something like the municipal leadership breaking the police union because that's the better choice than sustained rioting and property damage?

Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1666 on: June 03, 2020, 01:45:35 AM »
Carry an UNO Reverse card with you, so you can pull it out like a soccer ref.

shosta

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1667 on: June 03, 2020, 01:52:19 AM »
So the win condition is something like the municipal leadership breaking the police union because that's the better choice than sustained rioting and property damage?
Thinking a few steps ahead in the conversation here: are you asking me if hostage taking has political legitimacy? It obviously doesn't! But my assertion is that minorities have the moral right to defend themselves and the majority can decide if that grievance is just or not.

black man murdered -> police station burned -> leadership: "Are we really going to bring in the military police? Or would we rather announce investigations and reforms?" The majority can grapple with this question and it may very well find that it has been unjust and change course. The violence gives society an opportunity to make a judgment when it might have just gone ignored forever.

I'm not saying there's no role for nonviolent protest. It raises awareness and it shows political leadership that there are numbers behind the demands. I'm just saying that protesting is fundamentally best used as a precursor to either organized voting or organized insurrection - it is not useful in itself and it is severely limited.
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Tripon

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1668 on: June 03, 2020, 01:52:27 AM »

benjipwns

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1669 on: June 03, 2020, 01:53:43 AM »
If I'm about to be arrested by the police can I pull a citizen's arrest before they can get the cuffs on me and arrest them?
sigh if only :heart

benjipwns

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1670 on: June 03, 2020, 02:02:25 AM »
He's saying you should carry the... :teehee :teehee :teehee RED UNO Reverse card

Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1671 on: June 03, 2020, 02:05:33 AM »
Thinking a few steps ahead in the conversation here: are you asking me if hostage taking has political legitimacy?

Nope, completely uninterested in legitimacy or morality.

What I'm trying to suss out is the... (Eric Garland voice) game theory.

shosta

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1672 on: June 03, 2020, 02:08:38 AM »
I was just trying to avoid a pretty easy gotcha where I say one group of terrorists commits violence until they get the reforms they want but then another group of terrorists commits violence until the reforms are undone and then you tell me we should just stick to democracy and avoid the civil war
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Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1673 on: June 03, 2020, 02:15:44 AM »
A wave of reactionary violence does seem like quite the pickle.

shosta

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1674 on: June 03, 2020, 02:20:37 AM »


this may or may not work
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Mandark

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1675 on: June 03, 2020, 02:23:33 AM »
*holds up UNO Reverse card*

benjipwns

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1676 on: June 03, 2020, 02:25:19 AM »
We should try breaking the police unions. Just to see what changes. If it goes poorly for police we can always not ever bring them back.

benjipwns

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team filler

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1678 on: June 03, 2020, 02:36:35 AM »
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Coffee Dog

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Re: Is the world burning?
« Reply #1679 on: June 03, 2020, 02:44:37 AM »
They have these people corralled..I rarely react so viscerally to the news. But Christ, it's so perverse. I know striking back would make things worse given they're outgunned. I just don't know how I can square my worldview with the dignity of these people being torn away in front of an audience.

I have to put my hope in state level reps, I guess.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 03:01:35 AM by Coffee Dog »