Author Topic: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba baaaa  (Read 465480 times)

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Cormacaroni

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my dad is talking to my brother about negroes in the white house and how obama mesmerizes women and how ancient greek columns from months ago reminded them of nuremburg

starting to figure out why you spend so much time on the internet rather than hanging out with your family.
But sure, the cost/benefit stuff.

Economically immigrants are a very small net plus.  There are certain negatives which mostly have to do with them not being integrated into the system.  Things like using ER care rather than seeing a physician because they're not insured.  Legalize them, make them pay taxes, etc.  Works just as well as kicking them out and is cheaper to boot.

Rule of law?  Eh.  I can't get worked up over victimless laws that are honored in the breach.  A lot of people besides the immigrants contributed to the norms of lax enforcement.

On the national security side, sealing off a giant contiguous border with the largest wealth gap between two adjacent countries in the world would mean a lot of resources.  A lot of money and a lot of police authority doled out.  I'm not sure I want to spend all that much to prevent a threat that's more hypothetical than anything.  How many terrorists have come through Mexico?

I'd just as soon abolish or drastically raise the quotas and streamline the process.  The vast majority of undocumented immigrants would rather make their new lives as part of society, rather than insecure second-class humans.

It's worth asking why they're not allowed to live here in the first place.  I sure as hell didn't do anything to earn my spot.

Why are they not allowed to live here in the first place?

Because they are not American citizens, they were not born in America, they were not raised in American culture, a large percentage of them do not speak English, etc. I don't know about you, but I want to know that all Americans have a level of proficiency with the native language. I want to know that all Americans have some understanding of the culture (although our educational system is failing us in that regard).

There's also the fairness aspect of it. Why should we allow people to just become Americans on a whim? Can we, as Americans, just pack up and move to London or Paris or Rome and become citizens of those countries? No. I remember how shocked I was when I found out how difficult it would be to legally and permanently emigrate to Britain. Pretty much the only countries in the world that will let you just pack up and move there permanently are the dirt poor ones in southeast Asia, and maybe a few others that I don't know about. But I'm really opposed to letting anyone become an American citizen when the rest of the world won't do the same for us.

So it was fair for your ancestors to move to the US 200 yrs ago, displacing the natives, but unfair for anyone else to move after you've settled in? Were your ancestors proficient in Navaho?

Fairness has nothing to do with this. Population is a factor that governments have to control actively to balance available resources against economic growth, and immigration policy is one of the few tools they have to manage it. Reciprocal agreements with other nations are one way to ensure you as an American have more choices about where to live and work, but you have to have a more flexible mindset than you are currently displaying if you want these to be realized.
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Brehvolution

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+2 in this household for the legalizing of MJ. :-*

If they tax it, we could kiss this deficit goodbye.
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Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3902 on: October 29, 2008, 11:29:11 PM »
That ad was made in Atlanta by some friends of mine.  The paint huffer, "I want a Pres I can drink a beer with" dude in the coveralls and the couple are all people I know.  It was weird watching it earlier.

These the same friends who made The Signal?
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MrAngryFace

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/27446296#27446296 -- nate silver on olbermann, looks how I imagined lol
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3904 on: October 29, 2008, 11:34:16 PM »
whats that supposed to mean!

edit: oh damn, take the glasses off
010

I don't think it's racist to want to deport illegal immigrants. Pretty much every other country deports illegals. Why is it racist if we do it?
The point is that many things in life do not occur in a vacuum, and while therea re many people who are well-intentioned and believe firmly in preventing porous borders, the issue cannot be NOT RACIALIZED because 1] many victims/perpetrators are of brown skin and different language, 2] their American opponents/critics are of another race/language, and 3] really, both sides put on their race-tinted goggles on looking at the matter, no matter how much certain people who are honest try to be objective and practical.

Furthermore, while I agree that the US has a right in securing what it thinks are too porous, unsafe borders, I would point out that 1] this mass illegal immigration is not an aberration but an unstoppable major long term trend, 2] it is not only the consequences of Mexico and its shit situation with shitty economics and shitty narcotraffic murders, but also the consequence of NAFTA's enormous effects, and illicit drug use, both of which US is highly culpable/responsible, 3] blocking them from coming in via barricades or guards along the huge border is a fucking waste of taxpayer money and will not only NOT work, it will BACKFIRE, and 4] 'shipping them out' is undeniably racist.  You don't say SHIP EM OUT with a clean nose.

and FYI, western europe and britain are also grappling with this.  I'm not saying LETS DO JACK SHIT AND LET EM COME IN but displeasure at mass immigration is almost never free from being  strongly racial/ethnic in tone.

Yeah, a lot of this is pretty much bullshit, sorry.  Real talk.
ok you know what Loki???

...you're right.  I don't know what the hell I was thinking. Sorry.  I take it all back.

...except for the wall part!  You cannot construct a multihundred mile wall of security while maintaing personnel, appropriate equipment, surveillance, repair, etc, without significant amount of taxpaper money, ALL of which would go to waste because 1] there will be increased hidden tunnels, 2] they would come by sea or 'land hopping' [i.e. from mexico to island X to island Y to finally, US mainland], and/or 3] there's no way the Natl Guard/volunteers can constantly survey such a huge ass border reliably, because inevitably there will be a few 'breaks' on the barricade, and they will flow through.

Not to mention, people will rightly see this as the new Berlin Wall.  And please don't tell me you're one of thoes 'why should we care about overseas popularity?' because it's so much more than that.

And finally, this huge ass wall is not a long term solution, i.e. it doesn't solve the problem, it only attempts to band aid it.  At great cost, financially, morally, manpowerly, timely, and not-effective-ly.


PS: ok i apologize it seems we've moved on to other topics :/
PPS: I would also remind that to many poor Mexicans, doing it the 'legal' way is not an option, due to cost, corruption, or sheer lack of such available process.  I know, not really US's fault, but there's reality.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 11:39:00 PM by laesperanzapaz »
Crm

MrAngryFace

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ELECTION THREAD
o_0


Cormacaroni

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ELECTION THREAD

yes, let's discuss McCain's comeback chances!
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MrAngryFace

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/27445822#27445822

The attack ad in this segment is lolz....YET

ELECTION THREAD

yes, let's discuss McCain's comeback chances!

I was telling Prole today how I knew everyone is really tired from the Presidential Campaign cause im constantly steering this thread back onto the road lately :)
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Cormacaroni

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I'm not tired of it (I don't even live in the US so I'm not media-saturated like most of you guys); I just think it's over.
vjj

wow eric schmidt on obama's huge ass ad

i shouldnt have been surprised but i didnt know google was that brave and upfront
Crm

Olivia Wilde Homo

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It is over but the entertaining stuff to me is seeing the desperate grasping for straws from McCain and his supporters the past couple of weeks.

I had to admit, in September, I thought McCain would win.  People liked Palin, McCain seemed to do very well (his insanity not quite revealed just yet), and underestimated American intelligence, thinking that people would like the idea that he suspended his campaign.  Once he was pretty much revealed to have no economic strategy other than to trash Obama's, that is when it was all over for him.

Although personally I hope for a blowout.  The biggest flaw of the poll models is that cell phones aren't taken into account in many of these polls and given how many people have cell phones these days, it is a huge demographic that is being ignored.  It is why I think there will be a blowout for Obama.  That and the increased turnout of black people, something that few polls really try to take into account as well.  It is unfortunate that he wound up losing West Virginia but he seemed to gain Georgia and North Dakota in the process.  Maybe even Arizona :omg

I would be a lot more pessimistic but McCain is done.  His October Surprise was a bust, Palin was a bust, his plans are a bust, his numerous gaffes only make him look unstable.  I just don't see what McCain has under his sleeve to stop Obama.  If Obama loses, it will be because he really fucked up on something badly.
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MrAngryFace

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DONT GET OVERCONFIDENT! YOU SAW THE BIKE AD!*

*which was hilarious
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3914 on: October 30, 2008, 12:42:44 AM »
Ron Paul and Rachel Maddow :drudge
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032553
010

MrAngryFace

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Rachel rox. I have to get my fix every weeknight. She's always liked Ron Paul, because while he's probably a little off, he's honest about it.
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Mandark

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The pervasive apologism for corporate and wealthy parasites is infuriating.

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - JK Galbraith

MrAngryFace

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I hope Rowling paid OBAMA WELL FOR THE MENTION OF HER BOOKS
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3918 on: October 30, 2008, 01:14:23 AM »
:bow JK Rowling  :bow2

Cohen's been too nice to me, I can't pee on him

010

Loki

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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - JK Galbraith

That's perfect. :lol

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3920 on: October 30, 2008, 01:33:41 AM »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27447282#27444126

Would love to get you guy's opinions on this discussion - basically the idea that this is still a center right country, and when "republicans run as republicans" they always win. Pfft

If "the most liberal senator" wins in a landslide this ain't a right of center country, and the idea that a massive landslide won't give Obama a mandate is laughable.
010

Olivia Wilde Homo

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That news is awesome.  The groundwork is starting to get laid down for a further push to the right for the remaining Republicans.

I will enjoy the campaigns of the GOP members up for a 2010 election that think that moving further to the right is a good idea.  Especially if Obama is doing well overall.  We should see a good number of Republicans purged.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 01:48:31 AM by T EXP »
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3922 on: October 30, 2008, 01:59:43 AM »
It's hilarious they seem to think Obama is gonna "overreach" thus causing republicans to take control in 2010, just like in 94. The comparison doesn't even make sense historically. 94 was a rejection of over bloated democratic rule just as 2006/2008 were of republican over bloated rule, and Clinton certainly did his party no favors. Lots of people still blame Clinton for ruining the party. I doubt Obama will face similar situations
010

Cormacaroni

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Wow, that sure sounds both nationalist and racist to me.

If your culture is worth preserving, it will thrive with increased diversity, not collapse. If you have to endure a little inconvenience at the convenience store when someone gets your order wrong, cry me a river. From my perspective, America's multi-cultural nature has been it's greatest strength.
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Nationalism IS a pejorative term. If you want to call yourself patriotic, on the other hand...

And I'm sorry, but wanting 'a certain degree of cultural homogeneity' and wanting 'Americans to be American' IS racist in my book.
vjj

MrAngryFace

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ANYWAY
o_0

make a new thread GS.

And I actually agree with you, except for the "american assimilation" part.  Hint: the melting pot is not waht its name implies.

but yea, make a new thread.
Crm

Human Snorenado

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3927 on: October 30, 2008, 08:24:51 AM »
That ad was made in Atlanta by some friends of mine.  The paint huffer, "I want a Pres I can drink a beer with" dude in the coveralls and the couple are all people I know.  It was weird watching it earlier.

These the same friends who made The Signal?

Actually no, although everyone in that town who is in that business is friends or at least acquaintances.  The people behind this one are some Adult Swim wankers, and the actors are all in the same improv troupe.
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Brehvolution

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Republicans are stand up citizens.
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drozmight

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make a new thread GS.

And I actually agree with you, except for the "american assimilation" part.  Hint: the melting pot is not waht its name implies.

but yea, make a new thread.

I'm partial to the salad bowl analogy.
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Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3930 on: October 30, 2008, 10:25:14 AM »
It's hilarious they seem to think Obama is gonna "overreach" thus causing republicans to take control in 2010, just like in 94. The comparison doesn't even make sense historically. 94 was a rejection of over bloated democratic rule just as 2006/2008 were of republican over bloated rule, and Clinton certainly did his party no favors. Lots of people still blame Clinton for ruining the party. I doubt Obama will face similar situations

There are so many factors that caused 1994 that just aren't here.  The economy was booming (making the GOP's statement about less regulation seem reasonable), the Evangelical movement was still growing (as opposed to waning like it is right now), and all of these Reagan era Republicans were still around.  2010 will have none of the above working for them.  The idea of Bush's last eight years will still be fresh in their minds and combined with a party that is moving further to the right, voters are just not going vote the far right in, unless they are in very conservative areas.

They think Obama will overreach and will whine about overregulating the marketplace but considering the stock market free fall this year, even if it improves just slightly and provides more stability, Obama's economic plan will be considered amazing.

There is no doubt that Obama's first term is going to have to be as perfectly run as his campaign.
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TakingBackSunday

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So gents, a theoretical:

If Hillary Clinton won the primary season, does she win the general?
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Eric P

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no.

i don't think so

far too much baggage

i mean the right haaaaaaaaaates her.
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Beardo

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3933 on: October 30, 2008, 11:26:30 AM »
Where was that political gambling website where you could get pretty good odds a month or so ago on betting that Obama would break 340 electoral votes?

That seems like a pretty decent bet now. I wish I had put a few hundred dollars on him breaking 300, and maybe a hundred on him breaking 340.
http://www.intrade.com/

TakingBackSunday

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no.

i don't think so

far too much baggage

i mean the right haaaaaaaaaates her.

Yeah, but they hate Obama now too, even to the point to calling him a turrist.  But I agree with you, I don't think she wins, but she comes close.

In regards to GS's question: Yeah, I think so.  He's a guy known for his business and economic beliefs, so he'd be performing a lot bette rthan McCain's reaction, which is similar to a fish out of water.
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Beardo

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3935 on: October 30, 2008, 11:29:53 AM »
Another hypothetical: would Romney be doing better against Obama than McCain is currently doing?

I think so.

TakingBackSunday

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I can tell you this:  If it were Romney and not McCain, BOTH my parents would vote for him, most likely.  My mother would because she thinks he's dreamy, my father would because he respects his business and economic experience.  Plus, he probably wouldn't have picked such a horrible horrible VP candidate.  Maybe even would've picked Huckafuck

note: both my parents are voting obama
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Eric P

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3937 on: October 30, 2008, 11:41:20 AM »
Another hypothetical: would Romney be doing better against Obama than McCain is currently doing?

I think so.

i agree

i think that even the evangelicals would have come out for him at this point
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TakingBackSunday

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Well if he would've been the nominee, I think he would pick Huckabee as a running mate by default because of his religious affiliations.  Romney is more polarizing than McCain used to be, so he'd have to pick someone like Hucks to counter balance that.
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Beardo

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3939 on: October 30, 2008, 11:43:43 AM »
Any of the other candidates would be doing better i think. I wish Fred Thompson won the nomination.

tiesto

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3940 on: October 30, 2008, 11:44:01 AM »
McCain camp trying to seek a scapegoat for their loss... who will it be?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/15073

Also... think it's time to speculate on Obama cabinet picks?
^_^

Beardo

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3941 on: October 30, 2008, 11:45:04 AM »
McCain camp trying to seek a scapegoat for their loss... who will it be?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/15073

Also... think it's time to speculate on Obama cabinet picks?

Rightfully so.

Eric P

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3942 on: October 30, 2008, 11:45:44 AM »
McCain camp trying to seek a scapegoat for their loss... who will it be?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/15073

Also... think it's time to speculate on Obama cabinet picks?

the mccain camp has no one to blame but themselves, really
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Olivia Wilde Homo

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 :lol

It isn't inaccurate though.  Palin has caused a lot of problems for McCain and on top of that, she tries to stab him in the back on a few occasions.

Can't wait for the 4th.  It will also be interesting to see how the informercial worked out.  I'm guessing a very small Obama gain.

Romney would do much better than McCain.  He's a lot more stable than Angry John and his economic experience would probably result in a win.  Giuliani probably would be doing better.  Maybe even Fred Thompson.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 11:52:30 AM by T EXP »
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Brehvolution

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It really amazes me that Palin thinks that she has even a glimmer of hope at running successfully in o'12. She really has no clue.
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tiesto

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3945 on: October 30, 2008, 11:54:31 AM »
Quote
Also, a “top McCain adviser” told Mike Allen of Politico that Palin is “a whack job.”

I fucking love it!  :lol
^_^

Eric P

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but the speculation that people are positioning Palin to be the leader of the party is just strange.

just....strange
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Rman

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3947 on: October 30, 2008, 11:58:58 AM »
I definitely don't think Romney would be competitive myself.  Did you guys see the primary debates and his platform?

Olivia Wilde Homo

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but the speculation that people are positioning Palin to be the leader of the party is just strange.

just....strange

I am one of those people.

Palin is distancing herself from McCain.  All she has to do is go on the media circuit and talk about how McCain muzzled her and as a result, was not as effective as she could have been in defeating Obama.  In the meantime, she will acquire superficial knowledge of the war (knowing that her lack of knowledge is a big strike against her) and will keep talking to the media to change her image.  Christian evangelicals, scared that an evil Muslim is in power and that Romney the Mormon looks to be 2012 candidate, will work their asses off to fund Palin's expenses.

I think it is definitely possible.  The GOP has made the base hostile to anything other than white Christians.  Anything else is considered false and that includes Mormons.  Palin could easily apply enough FUD to make people fear that Salt Lake City will be the future GOP powerhouse and that Palin has worked hard to understand real American's issues.  She is also way far to the right; she thinks that abortion clinic bombers are not terrorists.  She thinks that science is entirely useless and balks at the idea of government funded research.  These are things George W. Bush and McCain disagree with.  This helps the future GOP image that they didn't go far enough to the right in 2008.

Her case is even stronger if she winds up becoming a Senator, which she has been hinting at.  For the string pullers, they will like that she champions their causes so well and so easily, without letting personal scruples get in the way.  While McCain discouraged his supporters from calling Obama a distinguished black fellow, Palin just remains silent.  Palin is known as small government despite governing one of the most socialist states in the Union.  The right wing financiers all see this and see that kind of potential in Palin.

She will get demolished in a general election but I would not count her out by any means.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 12:12:25 PM by T EXP »
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Brehvolution

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You are all Joe the plumber.
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Howard Alan Treesong

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But...I don't WANT to be Joe the Plumber!

Fight rednecks with rednecks! FORM BLAZING CONFEDERACY

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Bloodwake

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3951 on: October 30, 2008, 12:21:02 PM »
My fear is that the religious right will manipulate politics to put Sarah Palin in a position of true power in the next ten years.

If that happens, we will see the end of the United States.

Anyways, look at this mess on my Facebook page. Seriously, it's sad that Kentucky citizens think that the Obama dummy hanging from a tree on public property "wasn't that bad" and their reasons are laughable: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/profile.php?id=88201725&ref=profile
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duckman2000

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Wow, that sure sounds both nationalist and racist to me.

If your culture is worth preserving, it will thrive with increased diversity, not collapse. If you have to endure a little inconvenience at the convenience store when someone gets your order wrong, cry me a river. From my perspective, America's multi-cultural nature has been it's greatest strength.

It's nationalistic to be sure, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Why is America the only country that isn't allowed to show nationalism? It's certainly not racist. But tell you what, the next time a European mocks America for not having culture within earshot, I'll tell him that it's because we're not allowed to have one, and I might even call him a racist while I'm at it.

:lol There isn't a nation on Earth that is sp fond of waving its own flag around, within its own borders. Everything that concerns public affairs and politics is set to sentimental/patriotic music, with visuals draped in red, white and blue, and Americans are remarkably prone to breaking into "USA USA USA" chants, particularly when faced with their own inadequacies as individuals, people or a nation. Maybe this is because it's such a young nation (shaped by commerce, the most erratic force of all) and therefore needs to substitute real historical and cultural roots with self-congratulatory chants and praise sessions. But whatever the reason, Americans should be the last to whine about supposedly not being allowed to show nationalism.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 12:34:29 PM by duckman2000 »

MrAngryFace

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siamesedreamer

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It really amazes me that Palin thinks that she has even a glimmer of hope at running successfully in o'12. She really has no clue.

Agreed. She has been a tremendous disappointment and the thought of her "leading" the GOP (or leading anything) in the future makes me want to vomit.  

My guess is that the GOP nominee will not be any of the top four mentioned now (Palin, Romney, Pawlenty, or Huckabee). I'd like to see Newt. But, my darkhorse is the SC gubna Mark Sanford.

siamesedreamer

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #3955 on: October 30, 2008, 12:49:13 PM »
It's hilarious they seem to think Obama is gonna "overreach" thus causing republicans to take control in 2010, just like in 94.

Oh he's going to overreach. There's no doubt about that. The DEM congress ensures it. In fact, the bigger the margin he wins by, the greater the overreach will be. "Mandate", etc. Will it be enough to flip congress in 2010? No way. But, it will definately be the start of getting the Senate back in GOP hands.

Brehvolution

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Sorry about the rays SD. :-\
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Mandark

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At least the Rays, unlike the GOP, are stocked with young talent and ready to compete in the coming years.

siamesedreamer

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Sorry about the rays SD. :-\

Yeah, it sucks. The Phillies are a worthy champion though.

Olivia Wilde Homo

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I see GOP making some Congressional gains in 2012 but not 2010.
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