What sexual dysfunction best explains Avatar fandom?

[Mandark]

No, the consensus is that it's a well-told story that relies on traditional and possibly overused archetypes.

No it's not. But I guess it's on me to advance the baton.



The plot is completely predictable.  When people zing it for being like Pocahontas/Ferngully/Dances With Wolves it's not because they share a general structure, but because almost every major plot point is predicted by those movies.  The arc of action, the hero's transformation, and the roles of the secondary characters are all painfully obvious ahead of time.

You know the beautiful chieftain's daughter will fall in love with him, be angry at his betrayal, and forgive him.  You know there will be an aspiring alpha male who is jealous of the interloper, who will eventually be won over and have a noble death.  You know Sully's going to learn to be a better Navi than the other Navi and as soon as they mention how only four people have ever tamed the big red dragon, you know who's gonna be riding it during the big battle scene.  Things aren't foreshadowed in this movie so much as they're telegraphed.

The dialogue is pretty terrible too.  Sully's narration is pointless and cheesy ("sometimes life comes down to one insane gamble" or whatever that line was).  The exposition is clumsy, and that's a problem when the first half of the movie is exposition.  Tell me that first scene with the Corporate Dickhead explaining "this is why we're here!" and pointing at the floating rock wasn't hackery.

Above all, the movie's manipulative.  It bombards the audience with signals of who's Good (beautiful people getting along with each other and nature) and Bad (ugly people with industrial machinery made from a society without design professionals).  It's broadcast so clearly and repetitively that there's no cost, no remorse, no pain when Sully betrays his former team and species.  What is ostensibly the emotional crux of the movie is drained of any significance it would have had.

It's got all the subtlety and narrative creativity of British panto.

If you want to grade it on a curve and say that popcorn movies are all about the spectacle, fine.  But you can't do that and still claim that it's an awesome achievement of filmmaking that elevates genre movies to some new creative plateau.

[Ichirou]

smh GS, falling into this old trap again.  Want me to repost that Pocahontas/Avatar jpeg so I can demolish your defense of the story before you can even start?

So a story that's similar to something that's been done before can't be well-told?

Guess Romeo and Juliet was a real piece of crap then.

omfg, you're comparing Avatar to SHAKESPEARE now.

You are completely insane.

[Green Shinobi]

If you want to talk about films that elevate genre filmmaking to new creative plateaus, I would talk about stuff like The Searchers, 2001, Once Upon a Time in the West, Night of the Living Dead, Blade Runner, etc. I don't think anyone has made that claim about Avatar unless they're talking about its ability to completely transport the viewer to a new world, in which case it does break new ground and then some.

I don't take issue with the plot being predictable because that isn't the point. The plot was pretty much given away in the trailers. A movie like this isn't about keeping you guessing, it's about taking you on the journey. And regardless of whether or not you knew what the major plot points would be, I'm pretty certain you didn't know how those plot points would be implemented, which is an area where Avatar really shines.

As for your issue with the exposition, I'll just say that I disagree entirely. I thought the first half of the film was absolutely brilliant. Why did you feel it was clumsy? Some of the dialogue was clumsy, but the pacing and buildup was fantastic in my opinion. You see Jake go from being a cripple in a wheelchair to walking and running, and from there to flying. You go from these narrow, confined spaces into a huge, open world over the course of that first half. You take part in his joy and exhilaration. That was the point of the movie, not to keep you guessing about what plot twist would come next.

Also, linking to that Willco post doesn't do much for your argument because 1) It's a Willco post, and 2) he cherrypicked reviews to make his case. You could just as easily find plenty of reviews that state that the story is well-told.

I have quite a bit to say about the "It's manipulative" part of your post, but I'll have to save that for later.


Edit: Ichirou, your reading comprehension skills are about as bad as I've seen on this forum, and you use almost as many fallacies as Willco.

[Ichirou]

hahahaha, you're dumb!

[Green Shinobi]

Not even trying anymore?

I know you're not exactly an intellectual heavyweight, Ichirou, but just go with a gif or something if that's all you've got.

[Ichirou]

Why should I even bother?  You're an easily baited idiot.

Willco and Mandark may be attracted by low-hanging fruit, but I'd rather debate someone of actual intelligence.

[Green Shinobi]

Aside from me, I can't see anyone of actual intelligence giving you the time of day. I am, as you said, a glutton for punishment. Reading and responding to posts by insanely stupid people is a personal masochistic tendency of mine.

[Ichirou]

"You said I'm stupid so I say you're MORE stupid! Ownnnned!"

You bore me.

[Mandark]

And regardless of whether or not you knew what the major plot points would be, I'm pretty certain you didn't know how those plot points would be implemented, which is an area where Avatar really shines.

I knew the warrior princess was going to rescue Jake when he was isolated from the group.  I knew Jake would form a bond with one of the dragons, and I knew Jake would ride the big red dragon.  I knew that the jerk chieftain-in-waiting would die in battle.  I knew that Sigourney Weaver would die, but that the transfer would be used to make Jake Navi permanently.  I knew Navi would tell him to fuck off at the point where she finds out his double role.

This is not bragging.  This is about an entire movie using the same subtle foreshadowing of Red October's camera as it lingers on the cook.

Read your own defenses of the movie.  They basically come down to 1) lowering the bar, 2) talking about your (or the audience's) emotional reaction to it, and 3) praising the spectacle.

[Ichirou]

bubububububu mandark

shakespeare

romeo and juliet

what does plot matter

[Green Shinobi]

1) It isn't lowering the bar; it's weighting different qualities of the film in importance. In a film like this, a predictable plot isn't nearly as big an issue as it would be in, say, a crime drama.

2) Emotional reaction is a huge part of the movie-going experience.

3) Journey =/= spectacle.

I also guessed at most of those plot points when I watched it the first time (again, like half of those things were in the trailer). I didn't care. As I said before, the point isn't to keep you guessing with the plot; the point is the journey the film takes you on. If you didn't appreciate it the same way most audiences did, that's okay, because everyone is entitled to their opinion, but do keep in mind that you're in the minority on this one.

[Mandark]

Stop taking "predictable plot" to mean "has no twists" please.

Avatar hews so close to a cliched formula that you can predict the roles, decisions, and interactions of the characters almost as soon as you meet them or before.  That's what I mean by predictable and it's a bad thing for a movie of any genre.  This is why we have the phrase "stock character" and it's generally not used as praise.

[Green Shinobi]

If you tried, you could do this for most movies.

When I watched it, I recognized the traditional archetypes, but I was still surprised by a lot of the things that happened in the movie. Perhaps that's because I wasn't trying at all to predict where the story would go, but was instead content to sit back and let it take me where it would.

The characters were for the most part quite lively and memorable in my opinion. The only real stock characters were the chief, Tsu-tey and some of the marines. The rest all had their own little quirks and twists to keep things interesting.

But it's clear that you and I had different experiences in watching the film. That's fine. What isn't fine is you making statements like "Green Shinobi is less intelligent than the rest of us" because of the fact that I liked a film that you didn't like.

[Barry Egan]

But it's clear that you and I had different experiences in watching the film. That's fine. What isn't fine is you making statements like "Green Shinobi is less intelligent than the rest of us" because of the fact that I liked a film that you didn't like.

Actually, the problem has always been that you've conflated your personal experience of a mediocre film with an objective account of that films actual worth.  You refuse to acknowledge that you were entertained by a plot that is more or less a "straight-to-video" release for 12 year olds were it not for the visuals.

[Herr Mafflard]

unseen, pre-alpha Avatar trailer

[youtube=560,345]UdIIqoDakHU[/youtube]

[Green Shinobi]

But it's clear that you and I had different experiences in watching the film. That's fine. What isn't fine is you making statements like "Green Shinobi is less intelligent than the rest of us" because of the fact that I liked a film that you didn't like.

Actually, the problem has always been that you've conflated your personal experience of a mediocre film with an objective account of that films actual worth.  You refuse to acknowledge that you were entertained by a plot that is more or less a "straight-to-video" release for 12 year olds were it not for the visuals.

Well, if that's what I'm doing, then I'm far from the only one doing it. Anyway, Oscar noms tomorrow. Believe.

[cool breeze]

Let's just get the Rotten Tomatoes consensus out of the way: It might be more impressive on a technical level than as a piece of storytelling, but Avatar reaffirms James Cameron's singular gift for imaginative, absorbing filmmaking.

Also that Cameron knows how to make manly characters (Quaritch ) and kick-ass action scenes better than most.

I still think Avatar is great for the spectacle that it is.  It's just as much a "Planet Pandora" documentary as it is a action/drama movie trying to tell a story.  And if film tech gets to the point where Avatar looks bad, the action scenes would still be great.

[AdmiralViscen]

Stop taking "predictable plot" to mean "has no twists" please.

Avatar hews so close to a cliched formula that you can predict the roles, decisions, and interactions of the characters almost as soon as you meet them or before.  That's what I mean by predictable and it's a bad thing for a movie of any genre.  This is why we have the phrase "stock character" and it's generally not used as praise.

Oh please, like you didn't know Romeo and Juliet were going to kill themselves. I read that on the back cover of the cliff notes 

[Flannel Boy]

unseen, pre-alpha Avatar trailer

[youtube=560,345]UdIIqoDakHU[/youtube]

 

[Ichirou]

Stop taking "predictable plot" to mean "has no twists" please.

Avatar hews so close to a cliched formula that you can predict the roles, decisions, and interactions of the characters almost as soon as you meet them or before.  That's what I mean by predictable and it's a bad thing for a movie of any genre.  This is why we have the phrase "stock character" and it's generally not used as praise.

Oh please, like you didn't know Romeo and Juliet were going to kill themselves. I read that on the back cover of the cliff notes 

Wait wait wait...Green Shinobi wasn't comparing Romeo and Juliet to Avatar, even though he, uh...compared Romeo and Juliet to Avatar.

[The Fake Shemp]

Someone call the fire department, because Glen got burned.

[Ichirou]

You know, Willco, I'm starting to understand why you enjoy fucking with this guy so much.  He's like a weeble - you knock him down and he just gets right back up again, having learned nothing.

[Raban]

If you liked the Avatar review I would recommend his Star Wars Ep 1 review. 

Watching the Avatar review reminded me to do just this. Excellent review, regardless of how long it is. A small part of me kind of supported Episode 1 for a while, but really nothing in that movie makes any sense, and he brings that to attention.

[OptimoPeach]

Or are you one of those people that thought Dark Knight should get an Oscar too?

It was his movie of the decade or something equally insane

[The Fake Shemp]

That Pocahontas trailer. So true.

[The Fake Shemp]

If you tried, you could do this for most movies.

When I watched it, I recognized the traditional archetypes, but I was still surprised by a lot of the things that happened in the movie. Perhaps that's because I wasn't trying at all to predict where the story would go, but was instead content to sit back and let it take me where it would.

The characters were for the most part quite lively and memorable in my opinion. The only real stock characters were the chief, Tsu-tey and some of the marines. The rest all had their own little quirks and twists to keep things interesting.

But it's clear that you and I had different experiences in watching the film. That's fine. What isn't fine is you making statements like "Green Shinobi is less intelligent than the rest of us" because of the fact that I liked a film that you didn't like.

[youtube=560,345]LODkVkpaVQA[/youtube]

[Green Shinobi]

Come on Shinobi why do you keep saying that this is a good movie? Even people that like it admit its a shitty movie but a nice experience. I mean are you going to buy it and watch it a couple of times?  This is not Oscar material. Or are you one of those people that thought Dark Knight should get an Oscar too?

You know what? I'll admit that this is not a good movie and not Oscar material if you'll actually make the assertion that all the critics who gave it positive reviews and all the people who voted for its Golden Globe awards and likely Oscar nominations don't actually think it's a good movie either.

Wait wait wait...Green Shinobi wasn't comparing Romeo and Juliet to Avatar, even though he, uh...compared Romeo and Juliet to Avatar.

Explain how I compared Romeo and Juliet to Avatar.

It was his movie of the decade or something equally insane

Not even close. But if you can find a post where I said that, I'll change my password to gibberish and never log onto this site again.

[youtube=560,345]LODkVkpaVQA[/youtube]

How did I get knocked down?

[Mandark]

But it's clear that you and I had different experiences in watching the film. That's fine. What isn't fine is you making statements like "Green Shinobi is less intelligent than the rest of us" because of the fact that I liked a film that you didn't like.

Actually, the problem has always been that you've conflated your personal experience of a mediocre film with an objective account of that films actual worth.  You refuse to acknowledge that you were entertained by a plot that is more or less a "straight-to-video" release for 12 year olds were it not for the visuals.

Real talk.

There's a difference between saying "I had a great time" and "that was a great movie".

"But many people in the audience felt moved by it."  This applies equally to New Moon, and you're not about to start pimping that for the major awards nominations, are you?

[brawndolicious]

1) New Moon has like... zero redeeming qualities. Nothing about the film is done well. Avatar excels in many aspects of filmmaking.

2) The majority of people who were "moved" by New Moon fit into one specific demographic, while Avatar scored top marks in audience reviews across every single demographic.

3) New Moon appeals to a narrow set of emotions that are generally felt only by adolescents, whereas Avatar appeals to the senses of wonder, adventure and exploration that are pretty much universal (although it obviously didn't succeed in instilling these emotions in EVERY person who watched it).

1)Of course millions, disagree.  It doesn't mean that they're right.

2) A lot of GOOD movies appeal to a narrow demographic.

3)LAWL.  Wonder, adventure, and bullshit are "adolescent" emotions if anything.

[AdmiralViscen]

someone, anyone, lock this thread.

[Cormacaroni]

I have to say, if this thread has a purpose....this would be it.

ok, chaps, ready for round 113? He's not going down yet!

[Great Rumbler]

Here's all the countries where Avatar has made more than $100 million:

China - $127 million
France - $134 million
Germany - $106 million
Russia - $101 million
United Kingdom - $105 million
United States - $595 million

Countries that will probably pass $100 million:

Austrailia - $84 million
Japan - $92 million
South Korea - $88 million
Spain - $82 million

[brawndolicious]

1) Fans of crap will praise some stupid BS thing about it.  My point is that the number of people that like something doesn't mean anything about quality since people are easily manipulated emotionally.  Hell, Crash and Juno were just plain BAD movies but they won Oscars and had critical praise.  That to me suggests that critics are biased towards any formulaic movie.

2)  You can't try to OBJECTIVELY measure how good a movie is by the emotional reaction you have to it.  Not unless you're judging it by a totally different standard than..say, The Hurt Locker.  Do you think Avatar is good as a genre movie or as a drama?

3) This is a dream world where hippy smurfs fart at mechs, there is nothing interesting about it to senior citizens that have too much time on their hands.

[Great Rumbler]

For such a bland, pointless movie, you guys sure do like talking about it all the time.

[The Fake Shemp]

someone, anyone, lock this thread.

No way. He's arguing with Mandark now and that is a sure fire course for self-destruction. I just want to watch.

[Flannel Boy]

I was perfectly happy to sit back and post box office data until Mandark wanted to have a discussion

Here's all the countries where Avatar has made more than $100 million:

China - $127 million
France - $134 million
Germany - $106 million
Russia - $101 million
United Kingdom - $105 million
United States - $595 million

Countries that will probably pass $100 million:

Austrailia - $84 million
Japan - $92 million
South Korea - $88 million
Spain - $82 million

Avatar fans are the new Nintendo fans?

[Great Rumbler]

I was perfectly happy to sit back and post box office data until Mandark wanted to have a discussion

Here's all the countries where Avatar has made more than $100 million:

China - $127 million
France - $134 million
Germany - $106 million
Russia - $101 million
United Kingdom - $105 million
United States - $595 million

Countries that will probably pass $100 million:

Austrailia - $84 million
Japan - $92 million
South Korea - $88 million
Spain - $82 million

Avatar fans are the new Nintendo fans?

The movie's already out. We talked about. There's nothing new except sales numbers at this point, which is why the thread should be locked and forgotten. Like I said weeks ago.

[etiolate]

3) New Moon appeals to a narrow set of emotions that are generally felt only by adolescents, whereas Avatar appeals to the senses of wonder, adventure and exploration

are you serious

[The Fake Shemp]

Glen has hit a new low: etoilate is ragging on him.

[Raban]

Glen has hit a new low: etoilate is ragging on him.

At this point I kind of feel bad for him. I hope later in the year someone gets some serious annihilation, so we all forget about how hard Shinobi got owned so early into the new year.

[Ichirou]

Then someone will go "Hahaha, this is worse than when Green Shinobi got owned over Avatar" and he'll hop in and say he was never owned and the cycle will start all over again.

[The Fake Shemp]

Can we create a flow chart for that, similar to the one made for Sonic and his shitty friends?

[Barry Egan]

3) New Moon appeals to a narrow set of emotions that are generally felt only by adolescents, whereas Avatar appeals to the senses of wonder, adventure and exploration

are you serious

I like how this designation makes Bebpo the paragon of mature emotions (whatever that means). 

[Mandark]

I actually anticipated GS's "those are teenage girls and they don't count" dismissal of New Moon.  I was considering writing "Tyler Perry movies" instead, so when he pulled the "narrow demographic" line I could accuse him of being racist.  That woulda been fun.

But seriously, it'd be nice if GS could write anything in defense of the movie other than calling back to his own experience ("I enjoyed that part") or claiming validation from other people ("and so did they").  Talk about the movie itself, ferchrissakes.

[Raban]

Then someone will go "Hahaha, this is worse than when Green Shinobi got owned over Avatar" and he'll hop in and say he was never owned and the cycle will start all over again.

 
Green Shinobi just leave now, you have to save yourself.

[etiolate]

GS, do you really think the film is Best Picture Oscar worthy?

[Ichirou]

Save myself from what, Raban?

Save yourself from yourself.  You're your own worst enemy.

[Mandark]

Then someone will go "Hahaha, this is worse than when Green Shinobi got owned over Avatar" and he'll hop in and say he was never owned and the cycle will start all over again.

Oh man.

We should totally come up with some fictional past annihilation of Green Shinobi and make references to it.

Like he'll start arguing about something and then Willco would post "Oh God, this is going to be like the time that Patel annihilated you over Return of the King.  Don't do it man!"

Then Green Shinobi would say "I don't remember getting annihilated" like he always does and the rest of us would chime in.  "Dude, don't open it up again."  "I remember that.  So epic."  Etc.

Eventually he'd start wondering if maybe it had really happened and would start chasing Patel around in other threads to get the last word in an argument that never existed, before going completely crazy and disappearing.  Then Willco would write a script about it, and not give us a dime when he sold it on spec.

[The Fake Shemp]

I found Green Shinobi's next girlfriend:

[youtube=560,345]zDkWF4xd_fg[/youtube]

[Cormacaroni]

a nomination but not an actual Oscar? That's a bit weaselly.

[Raban]

I want to slam a folding chair against that chick's head.

[The Fake Shemp]

Is papyrus the new comic sans?

[Raban]

Is papyrus the new comic sans?

I've always hated it, personally. Almost all of the pack-in Mac OS fonts suck, except Helvetica.

I cringed when I saw that Cameron used it in the film. Did they run out of money?

[brawndolicious]

That bitch is wrong.  Just wrong.  Why is she strangling her mop-dog?

Explain why Avatar scored extremely highly across all demographics if the emotions it instills aren't universal?

That doesn't mean that it is a good thing that it makes an emotional reaction in most people, it matters to me only WHY it made people gay for pandora.  If you're content with it because you enjoyed it, then that means that you're judging it just as a genre movie.  I think everybody who watched it can enjoy it if they turn their brain off and try to ignore the acting and writing, like in any other genre movie.  What I don't get is why you think that a genre movie should be considered for Oscars.  Even if it does what it tries to do, the bar is inherently set lower.

[The Fake Shemp]

Mandark indirectly insulted Roger Ebert! Hasn't that man suffered enough?

[Mandark]

I remember when I'd be chided for calling Bush an idiot, because he had just been re-elected and did I really want to call 62 million Americans morons?  Well, after that I made sure never to disrespect him again.

Oh, and thank you to GS for doing EXACTLY WHAT I ASKED HIM NOT TO and writing yet another post in which he says "I liked the movie, including the plot and characters, just as many other people liked the movie."  Very constructive!

[Great Rumbler]

The movie was a great experience, had some amazing action scenes, some truly amazing CG work, and the world of Pandora evoke a sense of wonder in how grand and detailed it was. The acting, dialogue, and story, were all very standard fair that, for the most part, worked, even though they certainly could have been better.

There. I just saved everybody another 20 pages of pointless back-and-forth arguing.

[Mandark]

standard fair

One time I went to the Standard Fair and won an average prize at the regular ring toss.

[Cormacaroni]

makes you a regular tosser, eh

[Raban]

Go ahead and disagree with me, but don't insult me for those opinions, because you'd be insulting a lot of people, including everyone's favorite critic Solo.

I wouldn't insult you, you just need to stop posting about this movie. I don't think Avatar sucks, but I know enough to not post about it on EB in a positive light else I'll be flamed. Also I stopped paying attention to Solo's opinion when he said he enjoyed Quantum of Solace.