Author Topic: US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP  (Read 5447798 times)

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benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12960 on: January 16, 2018, 01:22:37 AM »
yet i get nothing for the krugman wife thing

do i need to make remarks about how dumb he looks in pictures with his cat?!?

maybe his cat should write his blog!

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12961 on: January 16, 2018, 01:25:42 AM »
Yeah, I remember when you floated that Robin Wells as Jesse Malkin/Bill Ayers idea seriously, but to your credit you were pretty clearly embarrassed when I asked for a source and you actually thought about it for a second.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12962 on: January 16, 2018, 01:34:11 AM »
It might not have been wholly serious because I remember once also supporting the inverse theory, that Krugman had gone insane and anything coherent was her as she's the co-writer on their textbooks. Plus I think she had her own blog for a while too.

I almost want to say that that strongly supported and valid until disproven theory may have been tracked back to Krugman mentioning she had written the bulk of one of their newer textbooks as she was stronger in the subject at a conference or something as just an aside proud of his partner type comment. And that became the whole "he's a good economist, his wife writes his garbage" somehow.

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12963 on: January 16, 2018, 01:37:31 AM »
Hey, I was willing to let this stay forgotten, like your Bjorn Lomborg fandom.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12964 on: January 16, 2018, 01:46:35 AM »
Now that is a extra bit of misrepresentation, I only endorsed his concepts as an alternative and a starting point. You may be combining that with someone else or I may have been too tryhard in my early Bore days, I would never, ever, endorse anything from someone who only has a degrees in Political Science. Let alone be a fan!

At least it's impossible for you to copy the most hurtful thing ever said about me on here/GAF, that I was a Stefan Molyneux fan, due to my well repeated distrust/disgust of all things Canadian.

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12965 on: January 16, 2018, 01:49:31 AM »
What literally happened: you cited Lomborg as someone you generally agree with, I was all "have you actually read his shit?" and you were all "oh well never mind he sucks."


edit: Shit, while we're on climate change, "cap and trade would force the US into a ground invasion in Africa" was a much hotter take of yours.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12966 on: January 16, 2018, 02:09:44 AM »
Well, I mean, I do generally agree with his argument about resource allocation on environmental issues, I'd prefer to maximize resources on expanding something like clean water access and renewability before something less concrete like climate change. I understand the counterargument though I'm not entirely convinced there isn't significant misallocation but also that I don't know. I do know that since his original book he's started to go into more and more hardline positions on certain topics that I haven't followed up, both back then and especially now, I did recently see him even complaining about desalinization projects because Nothern Yurop does it differently and better supposedly.

I don't think cap and trade, but a carbon tax, and I think arguably it's something I still haven't seen seriously discussed and analyzed regarding what are intended to be internationally enforced agreements that at least two powers if not more developing nations have a major disinterest in enforcing on themselves. In theory, like any UN resolution they would have be enforced at some point and that has the potential to lead to President Trump invading shithole countries endlessly on the premise that they're not hostilities and thus Congress can shut up about it.

edit: I guess it's more of one of those slippery slopes that only nutbags like me would ever be concerned about, I mean we don't even enforce things on ourselves and tell others to come and make us.

kingv

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12967 on: January 16, 2018, 02:10:59 AM »
Quote
I used to like glenn greenwald, but over the years realized a few things in the world of Glenn:
- America is always the aggressor, and is always wrong. Always
- trump sucks but the democrats suck just as bad
- the media is always wrong, except the intercept, which is always great
- Everybody that has ever been a part of his two big stories is above reproach at all times, then, now, and forever into the future. Exhibit A:
Quote
Greenwald is a piece of shit.
except for the second and third ones because the intercept didn't exist at the time, so it'd be the guardian, and you have to swap in obama and the republicans these are literally what i used to read from the conservative regulars (and the two non-American Objectivists) on a libertarian forum while that black guy was in office

lots of SHOULDN'T TRUST HIM (AND BY PROXY RUSSIAN AGENT SNOWDEN) BECAUSE HE JUST DID THAT BECAUSE HE HATES AMERICA, NO MATTER WHAT AMERICA IS EVIL IN HIS MIND

ideally there would be something about sockpuppets too but nobody young enough remembers that probably

I have no idea what the time limits you are talking about coming from. These are just general revelations of Glenn Greenwald, “in general”.

It’s kind of funny that you come to his aid, because in my view you are basically a less screechy Glenn (in this topic). Where everybody but you is essentially wrong. And if they are an expert, they are double plus wrong and dumb on top of it, unless, of course, they are a disgraced, dead, or otherwise someone that most of the country mocks.

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12968 on: January 16, 2018, 02:19:42 AM »
Well, I mean, I do generally agree with his argument about resource allocation on environmental issues

If only we could allocate more resources generally towards those issues. Too bad we're limited to this fixed amount of EnviroBuxTM.


edit: and buddy, if you're worried about US energy policy dragging it into military conflicts, you should sit down cause I've got some really bad news.

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12969 on: January 16, 2018, 02:26:13 AM »
Friedman is fine to me. I don't really seek him out, but I don't recoil when I come across his stuff. A lot I don't agree with the guy on, a lot of stuff I do, but agreements not really my goal when reading opinion columnists TBH, I just try to make sure they have intellectual integrity.
http://thomasfriedmanopedgenerator.com/Time%2Bfor%2BLeadership%2Be302d4
http://thomasfriedmanopedgenerator.com/The+Fear+Factor+in+India+0dcde7
http://thomasfriedmanopedgenerator.com/Go%2BBig%252C%2BMr.%2BObama%2B540aab

 :ohyou

He’s a guy that should stick to his wheelhouse TBH. When he starts trying to bring spiritualism, military policy, foreign policy(ironic given his academic background) or domestic political punditry into his pieces, he gets himself into trouble.

His reputation would of stayed a lot stronger if he just stuck to broad arguments about trade policy and his comfort zones within economics.

I honestly don’t even look at that aspect of his work because it’s hot take filler that is fairly empty and disposable. When he has something to say about IDK, the legacy issues present in our current energy policies with respect to addressing Climate Change pragmatically through economic incentives and targetted investments, or what he concludes from research are the specific benefits of TPP for America with regards to human rights with China and global trade, yeah, I’ll give him a read. Move outside of that economic wheelhouse and he can more often than not fuck off.

shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12970 on: January 16, 2018, 02:32:08 AM »
from wapo
Quote
But instead of unwrapping all the treats, the president was careful to pluck out and eat two flavors: cherry and strawberry, McCarthy noticed.

“We’re there, having a little dessert, and he offers me some,” McCarthy recalled in an interview. “Just the red and the pink. A bit later, a couple of his aides saw me with those colors and told me, ‘Those are the president’s favorites.’ ”

Days later, the No. 2 Republican in the House — known for his relentless cultivation of political alliances — bought a plentiful supply of Starbursts and asked a staffer to sort through the pile, placing only those two flavors in a jar. McCarthy made sure his name was on the side of the gift, which was delivered to a grinning Trump, according to a White House official.

also....
Well, I mean, I do generally agree with his argument about resource allocation on environmental issues, I'd prefer to maximize resources on expanding something like clean water access and renewability before something less concrete like climate change.
I much prefer the Larry Summers argument on this matter
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Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12971 on: January 16, 2018, 02:33:34 AM »
I don't know that Friedman even has a wheelhouse at this point. He used to be a reporter and I remember From Beirut To Jerusalem not being bad, but in the aughts even his "good" columns were either fairly vague, sweeping statements about globalism, or policy/industry-specific stuff where it came across as him just believing whoever it is who had briefed him on the subject and doing PR for them as a result.

In fairness I haven't read a column of his in years and years, but I'm super skeptical he's gotten that much better and couldn't be replaced in anyone's reading diet.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 02:40:18 AM by Mandark »

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12972 on: January 16, 2018, 02:43:19 AM »
I know you're new here, so I apologize for repeating this, I generally do not respond to things I agree with unless I can add something.

I am skeptical of "experts" especially ones that only appear in the media in partisan fashions which is a fair cop.

However, I don't defend Glenn anymore than anyone else where I disagree with the argument being made against him, some people just have a hardon about his stuff so he gets brought up with similar statements, and I was more noting the amusing factor that the same arguments about him have gone on for twelve years now. Only that I used to only see it from conservatives, and objectivists, until Hillary lost.

I wouldn't agree that the four things you note are aligned with me.
-I certainly don't think America is always wrong, but I don't have a problem with people pointing out how often its government has been.
-Well, here I agree, but I also think that Republicans suck just as bad. Which doesn't need as much repeating, something I think Glenn may feel, as other people are regularly pointing that out. For the record, the worst is the LP. At least the Greens are slowly turning themselves into a Jill Stein cult. I fully support cults.
-The media is not always wrong, but it's generally pretty horrible, and that includes The Intercept and reason and everyone else. Except for the comments, where the truth gets out.
-I think Snowden is his only big story; he wasn't involved in Manning nor has been involved with Wikileaks other than reporting on their releases. Snowden certainly seems to be a pretty stand up kind of guy from what I know, other than that whole Ron Paul thing.

If anything I think Glenn undercovered the theoretically most important story of the last decade after he became Snowden's conduit and shifted to covering mostly that and the NSA confirmation:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/24/obama-terrorism-kill-list
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/05/obama-kill-list-doj-memo

Hunting for those two in his Guardian archives reminded me that he's been going after the media for its choices in coverage for ages, he wrote three columns on how CNN failed to hold Paul Ryan accountable (or it appeared three times) and a bundle about how they're falling for the same bullshit regarding "national security" that they happily lapped up from the Bush Administration almost always using Judith Miller's pictures as the image lol

The easily found record ends shortly before the first article so I don't know if he has articles regarding Libya. Arguably that seems like a story prewritten for Glenn. Media complicity in repeating fabrications from dubious sources that all pointed towards one conclusion, shopping legal opinions to multiple departments until one came back with the right answer, drones, BENGHAZI.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 02:48:02 AM by benjipwns »

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12973 on: January 16, 2018, 02:45:47 AM »
edit: and buddy, if you're worried about US energy policy dragging it into military conflicts, you should sit down cause I've got some really bad news.
but like exactly!

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12974 on: January 16, 2018, 02:48:12 AM »
Greenwald's always been pretty quick to impugn other people's motives, can't really feel sorry for him. Especially when this "THE NEW MCCARTHYISM" stuff is only marginally less goofy than calling everyone a Russian cutout.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12975 on: January 16, 2018, 02:50:01 AM »
That is something I totally agree with, I don't think he's even capable of doing it the fun way where you don't know if he's serious or joking with exaggeration. In fact, I'm not sure he actually has a sense of humor now that I think about it.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12976 on: January 16, 2018, 02:56:19 AM »
One of Mandark's bookmarks, Matt Taibbi is the same way in his columns, but in his books (that aren't collecting and extending his columns) he's much better at not only discussing subjects, and doing actual original reporting, but also making the insults and barely simmering contempt straddle that line better sorta like on Penn and Teller: Bullshit where you know the reason they give for calling people assholes is also because they think they're assholes.

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12977 on: January 16, 2018, 02:56:52 AM »
My lasting impression of Greenwald is from the ACA debates. Some polisci professor had blogged about how the presidency is considered a "weak" office that relies on indirect power blah blah blah, and Greenwald essentially said the guy was making up shit cause we all know the presidency is powerful, was obviously a tool of the establishment, etc. and did his typical thing of digging in with UPDATES.

Like, even if you disagreed in general or in that specific case about the extent of Obama's leverage, the idea that a bunch of academic geeks had falsified years of research so they could one day make excuses for a disappointing Democratic president? That's a hell of a long con.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12978 on: January 16, 2018, 02:58:44 AM »
Joke's on you, Carter and Clinton's FAILED AND WEAK Presidencies were part of that whole plan too.

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12979 on: January 16, 2018, 03:01:22 AM »
Also Greenwald had that "What's worse, Trump's agenda, or letting the DEEP STATE impede a duly elected president!?" tweet or whatever recently. Not a great look.

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12980 on: January 16, 2018, 03:02:22 AM »
I don't know that Friedman even has a wheelhouse at this point. He used to be a reporter and I remember From Beirut To Jerusalem not being bad, but in the aughts even his "good" columns were either fairly vague, sweeping statements about globalism, or policy/industry-specific stuff where it came across as him just believing whoever it is who had briefed him on the subject and doing PR for them as a result.

In fairness I haven't read a column of his in years and years, but I'm super skeptical he's gotten that much better and couldn't be replaced in anyone's reading diet.

I mean yeah, he's always been a shitty foreign policy guru and a journalist following economics, not an economist practicing journalism, and you have to take that into account reading him. Like an Ezra Klein type(but I'd easily take an Ezra column over him TBH).

But I thought he made some good points recently with his thoughts on accelrationsim, the value of the TPP for human rights and American competitiveness, and his prior book on how to transition our energy economy to address climate change. None of it is anything you couldn't find by looking through primary sources, but I think he has the capacity to articulate those arguments pretty well, adding his own quirks to them. IMO that is where he has shown value, outside of that? Yeah I haven't found much.

But honestly, I feel like I am sort of defending someone that if I was pressed, isn't really even on my radar much unless he comes across as a podcast guest, or he has an economic column/book I find linked somewhere. I just think the reductionist narratives about the guy earlier in the thread were a bit much.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 03:06:24 AM by Nola »

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12981 on: January 16, 2018, 03:08:39 AM »
Even if he's a replacement level public intellectual, he was so consistently awful during the Bush years that we'd be better off without him. The lack of consequences for the people who pushed for that war is its own disaster.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12982 on: January 16, 2018, 03:14:44 AM »
I would think Trump's agenda and a good chunk of the deep state's would line up pretty well. Even positive conservative stories about Trump talk about how much he respects and defers to the military and similar. (Apparently because of his time at military school. Like lol)

He's been having a public spat with the FBI and DNI but even there they seem to be working things out on the bulk of issues that don't involve him personally. And he doesn't seem to be the type to want to reign in their abuses. Or even pretend to.

I never figured him and State would be in much agreement, even if we toss out the Russia stuff, he has too many pre-existing long-term views about nations and foreign policy. That was the disconnect that Powell faced in the W. Bush administration, that they essentially ignored State. Which Powell did not expect as Bush/Reagan didn't when he was part of those admins, it was Clinton who had.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12983 on: January 16, 2018, 03:16:12 AM »
Even if he's a replacement level public intellectual
between this and curly's Giannis post, we are breaking new political science ground this week and i feel like a total failure to not have helped

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12984 on: January 16, 2018, 03:19:47 AM »
Even if he's a replacement level public intellectual, he was so consistently awful during the Bush years that we'd be better off without him. The lack of consequences for the people who pushed for that war is its own disaster.

Thats fair. I certainly think there are any number of people that could do what he does better, and wouldn't really lose much sleep if he was pushed out into the void of obscurity. But sort of like Hitchens, I thought his foreign policy views were often clearly objectively flawed and borderline reprehensible, but I still found many of his critiques of religion and religious based hierarchies incredibly valuable, and would gladly consume them when I stumbled across them...Not that I think Friedman is on that level, just the first example I thought of to explain my dichotomy.

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12985 on: January 16, 2018, 03:21:58 AM »
Of course Trump doesn't have any problem with the security state, other than the fact that it might find dirt on him. You'd have to expend so much mental energy to pretend otherwise.

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12986 on: January 16, 2018, 03:22:37 AM »
NO

HITCHENS WAS BAD

kingv

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12987 on: January 16, 2018, 03:23:34 AM »
I didn’t mean to say you are exactly like Greenwald. You might not even like Brazilian cock.

I actually agree with him about half the time, but he has a huge blind spot for Assange Andy Wikileaks, and Snowden (who IMO is far more sympathetic of a person, anyway), I don’t know that he was “involved” with the
Release of the manning stuff, but he was absolutely interviewing Assange regularly during his Salon days:

https://www.salon.com/2012/06/19/assange_asks_ecuador_for_asylum/
That piece is basically a conspiracy theory absolving Assange of rape (which frankly the charges seemed sort of dumb) because of some sort of conspiracy about a US plan to extradite him and charge him with... what exactly? Assange has never been charged, there are no Interpol orders out for his extradition, and now he’s about to leave the embassy, Glenn seems convinced that we should be outraged about this nonexistent overreach... though he is half justified by the grounding of that diplomats plane.

Obama really fucked up on the whistleblower stuff. IMO, he enabled Trump in a lot of ways.

An entire piece dedicated only to saying that Assange and manning are unfairly smear d:
https://www.salon.com/2012/05/31/a_reminder_about_wikileaks/

That sentiment looks incredibly stupid now.

A tv review on how great Assange’s Russia Today TV show is:
https://www.salon.com/2012/05/22/re_visiting_assanges_show/

A defense of manning (that’s not completely unfair, really)
https://www.salon.com/2011/12/24/the_intellectual_cowardice_of_bradley_mannings_critics/

Side note, here is a defense of Kucinich, who is now running as a trumpist
https://www.salon.com/2012/03/10/dennis_kucinich_and_wackiness/

I gave up digging earlier than 2012, other than this choice defense of Wikileaks:
https://www.salon.com/2010/03/27/wikileaks/

It includes this choice quote

Quote
This is how Assange put it to me this morning in explaining why he believes his organization's activities are so vital and why he's willing to make himself a target in order to do it:

I remember this playing out a lot in 2010, when I really liked Greenwald. He was always interviewing Assange, especially about Manning.

And to this day, he still defends RT, Assange, Manning, and Snowden regardless of what they do. Now they are deserving of various levels of defense. Snowden a decent amount, Manning some, and RT and Assange, honestly, Glenn should go back and be like “Assange is not who I thought he was, not is Wikileaks, and I’m sorry I fell for a Russia Propaganda news network”

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12988 on: January 16, 2018, 03:27:05 AM »
Can't believe we've got people defending Bjorn Lomborg and Chris Hitchens in this thread.

This used to be a nice neighborhood.

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12989 on: January 16, 2018, 03:40:03 AM »
NO

HITCHENS WAS BAD
:-[

Like I sort of inferred, the moment he stepped out of his own wheelhouse of religious critique, most of his contributions, especially about Middle-Eastern foreign policy, were pretty much half-cocked garbage IMO. Frankly though, that seems to be a running theme with the 00's atheist intellectuals of Hitchens, Harris, and Dawkins. Come for the Spaghetti Monster and amputees, but make sure to leave before they start talking about how Israel has the moral clearance to retaliate bomb those radicalized hodjis - and their children if necessary - to whatever capacity they see fit.

shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12990 on: January 16, 2018, 03:42:46 AM »
But I thought he made some good points recently with his thoughts on accelrationsim
I liked a bit of what he said regarding that, too. It reminded me, vaguely, of the Neil Postman quote, "The television should be the last technological development that comes without a surgeon's general warning."
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benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12991 on: January 16, 2018, 04:07:49 AM »
Kucinich doesn't seem to have changed his positions any, let alone changed them to line up with Trump's, he just seems to be pushing the angle where his views meet his current media employers, that the deep state is against this President rather than supporting him. Everything else seems about the same. I see some of the Democratic complaints are he has met with Bashir Assad. But I can find him meeting with Assad all the way back to when he was a Congressman too. That was one of the things he got criticized for was meeting with America's enemies. Presumably to talk about his Department of Peace.

RT America to me isn't inherently a big deal because aside from not actually being a channel I think people watched, it was also the only media outlet for a lot of these more radical/extreme voices to get any kind of coverage, and when anchors started resigning in disgust at editorial interference a number of Americans also stopped doing appearances. (I can't speak to Glenn, I only know of libertarians who started suggesting things changed around the same time and the type of libertarian appearing on the network shifted towards the LewRockwell wing. The Johnson campaign also wasn't as positive to it in 2016 as it was in 2012.) Although it's also propping up some once traditional TV Democrats like Ed Schultz and quite literally propping up Larry King. I'd even argue that it appears that RT America's initial period was much like al Jazeera's and that it was after it was established some that the parent organization started to pull the reigns a bit tighter on the operation. I certainly am open to the alternative viewpoint, especially that it's changed and become nothing but propaganda, I just haven't ever really watched it other than internet clips and the debates it hosted.

Also I'm glad it informed me that Jesse Ventura has created a younger ponytailed clone of himself like Lex Luthor did in the Superman comics.

Though currently, like Kucinich, and the fact that Tucker brings Glenn on to chat harmoniously, they have a much bigger audience waiting to hear their views line up temporarily on Fox. But I'd also argue that Fox, MSNBC and CNN have changed as has RT from 2012, The Daily Show has! Even Last Week Tonight has changed. The Young Turks has. (Maoist Rebel News CONSISTENT.)

That's the long version of me saying that I don't know about a blanket condemnation for RT America six years ago is the way to go, nor even now inherently especially for things like how they cover people who don't get on elsewhere, but then I mean I'm already skeptical of media and media sources anyway, I just tend to prefer to pick and choose specific shows/coverage to criticize. Like how FOX has airtight unbiased reporting from 8-11PM currently, now that they finally got rid of O'Reilly and Scientologist Greta.

I'm sure there's a big ol packet of RT America propaganda I can watch, but I generally assumed that except for here and there or where coverage aligned. RT I don't think was ever considering anything but. I know Alex Jones used to make fun of it when it was just the Russian version. I do think you can make distinctions about and find value in RT America's positioning back when it seemed a bit less free from parental oversight and even today where it's more obviously being held to the parents line.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12992 on: January 16, 2018, 04:09:37 AM »
My favorite Hitchens content has become where it's got them both:



benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12993 on: January 16, 2018, 04:17:39 AM »
And just because, here's those Friedman vs. David Brooks and seven other students videos...

Going off my memory as I haven't watched these in a couple years but first part I think is where he most talks to Brooks as illustrated by the freeze frame, second part is where the two conservatives are shocked and one of them gets upset over Milton's refusal to murder drug users, and the third part has more Brooks in it but is mostly amusing because for some reason an example of potatoes is used once and then used in all the examples and hypotheticals and I started imagining that they were all Elbonians from Dilbert* debating policy:
spoiler (click to show/hide)


[close]

*yes, i know that their obsession and economy is mud based, what do you think i am some kind of luddite alt-right nut who just discovered Scott Adams?

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12994 on: January 16, 2018, 04:29:16 AM »
oh shit i can't forget this totally benji Hitchens favorite that recently got put up for free, after the 1984 election he appears on Firing Line with R. Emmett Tyrrell, Jr., then after they both get bored with Tyrell not understanding questions he's asked, he has a separate conversation with WFB full of jokes and references that they only understand while Tyrell gets increasingly upset and keeps demanding they talk about how much Democrats are godless heathens who want to surrender to communists and blacks and that liberalism is dead never to return because it's not an actual philosophy but a mental disorder:
spoiler (click to show/hide)
[close]

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12995 on: January 16, 2018, 04:30:29 AM »
 :marxumad :krotopkinumad

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12996 on: January 16, 2018, 04:32:19 AM »
Best thing I ever heard/read about Buckley was that he didn't want anyone smarter than him writing for the National Review, which was a problem since he was such a mediocre intellect.

shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12997 on: January 16, 2018, 04:47:17 AM »
NO

HITCHENS WAS BAD
:-[

Like I sort of inferred, the moment he stepped out of his own wheelhouse of religious critique, most of his contributions, especially about Middle-Eastern foreign policy, were pretty much half-cocked garbage IMO. Frankly though, that seems to be a running theme with the 00's atheist intellectuals of Hitchens, Harris, and Dawkins. Come for the Spaghetti Monster and amputees, but make sure to leave before they start talking about how Israel has the moral clearance to retaliate bomb those radicalized hodjis - and their children if necessary - to whatever capacity they see fit.
Hitchens was good. It's easy to just remember him for wanting to assassinate Saddam Hussein and forget he had 30 years of writing and public appearances before that.

No, Nola, religious critique was not his "wheelhouse". He had always written about foreign policy and domestic policy. The fact that you lumped him in with people who justify Iraeli occupation of Palestine shows you don't actually know what he believed which makes me think you haven't read much of what he wrote. I could point to a C-SPAN interview in 1983 where he said Israel had a right to exist but didn't have a right to militarily occupy and colonize its neighbors.  Or, from 2008:
Quote from: Christopher Hitchens in Slate
Do I sometimes wish that Theodor Herzl and Chaim Weizmann had never persuaded either the Jews or the gentiles to create a quasi-utopian farmer-and-worker state at the eastern end of the Mediterranean? Yes. Do I wish that the Israeli air force could find and destroy all the arsenals of Hezbollah and Hamas and Islamic Jihad? Yes. Do I think it ridiculous that Viennese and Russian and German scholars and doctors should have vibrated to the mad rhythms of ancient so-called prophecies rather than helping to secularize and reform their own societies? Definitely. Do I feel horror and disgust at the thought that a whole new generation of Arab Palestinians is being born into the dispossession and/or occupation already suffered by their grandparents and even great-grandparents? Absolutely, I do.
These aren't the words of someone who sits around opining "outside of his wheelhouse".

You could bring up Iraq, but he was always consistent with his moral principles, honest with reality, and intellectually deliberate. The man waterboarded himself and decided that "if this isn't torture, nothing is." He visited Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan to see the conditions for himself and talk to the people who live there. I put him in the same group I put John Kerry and Tony Blair: people who wanted action in Iraq for good reasons and were sad with the way it turned out.

This will come off as mawkish but Christopher Hitchens is an inspiration to me and I would be honored to be even a tenth the man he was. In my opinion his most important contributions weren't even his vigorous atheism. Christopher Hitchens was a relentless advocate for the truth. He possessed both moral and philosophical acuity, revealing fraudsters, hypocrites, and liars, like Henry Kissinger, Mother Theresa, and Ronald Reagan. He never let him anyone tell him what to think, which is an underappreciated quality.

He also despised lazy thinking. I remember watching an interview with him where he mentioned how people love to write cliches they don't understand, like the phrase "generate more heat than light", which to him was stupid because infrared radiation is light. I bring this up because I also just watched a Thomas Friedman talk to refresh myself on that book on Accelerationism you mentioned and while relating his writing method he stated that you have to choose between whether you're "producing heat" or "producing light".  :lol My point here is that this is a world filled with jackasses and mechanical turks who can barely string together coherent ideas let alone an original thesis, so when you watch or read or listen to someone with so much clarity of thought as Hitchens, you should take that person seriously despite your personal feelings about their ideas.

Even outside of politics, he wrote wonderful small histories. He was so well read that it's really worth your time to read any Hitchens article in e.g. Vanity Fair. His favorite subject was actually P.G. Wodehouse!

I basically hold Christopher Hitchens almost - but not quite - on the same level George Orwell. Laugh at that if you want, but it's really how I feel and I hope I could convince you to at least give him a fair shot.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 05:24:35 AM by Shostakovich »
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VomKriege

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12998 on: January 16, 2018, 04:58:33 AM »
Greenwald should be chained to a rock where an eagle tears out his liver every night for a thousand years.

And no, not for bringing any kind of spark to mankind, benji.

Just for leaking info that a powerful cabal of superhumans didn't want you to know then ?
ὕβρις

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #12999 on: January 16, 2018, 05:01:56 AM »
I basically hold Christopher Hitchens almost - but not quite - on the same level George Orwell.

Well the last decade of his life was a desperate bid to become his era's Orwell, with Iraq as his Spanish Civil War.

Only problem was how dumb and shitty he was.

shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13000 on: January 16, 2018, 05:02:46 AM »
Best thing I ever heard/read about Buckley was that he didn't want anyone smarter than him writing for the National Review, which was a problem since he was such a mediocre intellect.
I had to look this up again to make sure, but it's been rumored that had David Brooks not been Jewish, Buckley would have named him the successor to the National Review. Just one of those small, perfect kernels that described who Buckley was.
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shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13001 on: January 16, 2018, 05:16:10 AM »
Well the last decade of his life was a desperate bid to become his era's Orwell, with Iraq as his Spanish Civil War.

Only problem was how dumb and shitty he was.
Can you point to a televised segment with him or an article he wrote where he was being dumb?

I agree that he tried to make Islamic authoritarian regimes his moral stand. It wasn't a good or worthy bet. But it wasn't like it was the worst thing to stand up against, either. Iraq was high, high, high, on the list of state sponsored moral atrocities in this world, and it's not like he didn't talk about the others on that list, too.
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benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13002 on: January 16, 2018, 05:21:08 AM »
shows how much you guys know, there's no "the" it's just National Review

CHECKMATE, LIEBERALS, PREPARE TO GET PARSED

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13003 on: January 16, 2018, 05:35:51 AM »
i want to say that i was going to make that point about Hitchens religious career focus being his later career and as he writes in one books resulted from his cancer and thinking about death; his earlier career was all normal politics including modern left politics for a bit and foreign policy, but i forgot, so give me all the credit first please

also, his "shift" on Iraq/Afghanistan was one of the few that actually explained their shift in terms that seemed consistent, and it started earlier with the Balkins conflicts, he also admitted an uncomfortably with the assumptions and hop-ons his position brought

also speaking of Peter, as they note in the above 2008 debate, it was the social conservative, christian, denial of Palestine/dyslexia/ADHD/drug addiction/etc. even existing Peter who opposed Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosovo, etc. intervention and Christopher supported them all

Hitch was fun, Buckley was fun, don't care if dumb or with huge blindspots...of course now we have Ben Shapiro and SECULAR TALK

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13004 on: January 16, 2018, 05:40:56 AM »
"or with huge blind spots"

dog buckley was a huge racist who blamed my lai on promiscuous youth culture

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13005 on: January 16, 2018, 05:41:29 AM »
Can you point to a televised segment with him or an article he wrote where he was being dumb?

yes literally all of them

shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13006 on: January 16, 2018, 05:58:26 AM »
i want to say that i was going to make that point about Hitchens religious career focus being his later career and as he writes in one books resulted from his cancer and thinking about death
I've never heard this mentioned before but I can't help but think his mom being convinced to make a suicide pact with her of-the-cloth boyfriend might have been the origin of his animosity toward religion, even if he made the career switch much later.
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benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13007 on: January 16, 2018, 06:04:38 AM »
"or with huge blind spots"

dog buckley was a huge racist who blamed my lai on promiscuous youth culture
my lai was certainly a form of promiscuous youth culture

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13008 on: January 16, 2018, 06:04:57 AM »
people who wanted action in Iraq for good reasons and were sad with the way it turned out.

Yeah he was so sad that circa 2006 he was rabidly defending the war as a good idea while agitating for an invasion of Iran. This wasn't one bad judgment, this was his schtick for a decade.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13009 on: January 16, 2018, 06:15:36 AM »
Now listen you queers, you keep insulting William F. Buckley, and I'll sock you in your goddamn face, and you'll stay parsed.

Nola

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13010 on: January 16, 2018, 06:24:05 AM »


No, Nola, religious critique was not his "wheelhouse".

Sure it was. It's where he actually consistently made reasonable and defensible arguments. His foreign policy was often lacking. Yes he separated himself from Harris in often critiquing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but he had the same sort of simple narrative causation analysis problem that allowed an over-emphasis on religion that clouded plenty of their judgement in how they witnessed and assessed the Middle East. Of course that was after he wrote columns about how Clinton supposedly bombed the Sudanese to deflect from Lewinsky. An absolutely absurd, and still to this day, unfounded assertion, probably on the heels of another drunken contrarian deadline he had to meet. The cocktail of alcoholism and 9/11 on Hitchens only made his foreign policy judgement worse. Where he took 9/11 and Iraq and somehow managed to view that moment in time as some sort of existential battle for the future of humanity, played out through the absolute necessity of removing Saddam, often to the point of just blankly parroting Neoconservative talking points of the moment(probably helped he would regularly host Paul Wolfolwitz and his Office of Special Plans gang at his DC apartment).

 Going on to be one of the most fervent outside supporters of the invasion, the actions, and the Bush rationale for the Iraq war. Including in the midst of and after the fact of Bob Woodward's contemporaneous accounts of the administration's purposefully deceptive rationales to the public, Thomas Rick's accounts of the military failures and Bush deception, and after Rajiv Chandrasekaran's Imperial Life in The Emerald City laid to rest any doubts that the administration's post invasion leadership was at best incompetent and at worse treasonously corrupt. Yet Hitchens still managed to find time to go on forum after forum, from Democracy Now to debating Scott Ritter - who had first hand accounts of Bush's handwaving of the Hans Blix reports that signaled with defining clarity they were about to embark on a historical mistake based on their unfettered findings inspecting the weapons in Iraq -  continuing to defend the choices and decisions of the Bush administration. and as Mandark points out, prime the pump to rationalize another adventure of garden theory regime change into Iran the moment Cheney and company started laying the groundwork for the rationale.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 06:39:10 AM by Nola »

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13011 on: January 16, 2018, 06:28:11 AM »
Why on earth would we wait to disarm Iran? from 2009.

A take that has aged like milk.

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13012 on: January 16, 2018, 06:28:56 AM »
Hitchens' only redeeming contribution this century was as the bad guy in Speed Racer.

shosta

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13013 on: January 16, 2018, 06:29:41 AM »
Yeah he was so sad that circa 2006 he was rabidly defending the war as a good idea while agitating for an invasion of Iran. This wasn't one bad judgment, this was his schtick for a decade.
I don't know what he said in 2006 but in a 2011 interview in the Atlantic
Quote
The Iranian regime has several times publicly not just sworn but signed its name to documents in front of the International Atomic Energy Agency, the United Nations, and the European Union, that it has no ambitions to weaponize its nuclear capacity. If, after that, it is found that they have such impulses, then there is no such thing as international law anymore that would meant that we watched while that was contemptuously dismantled, trampled. In that case I see no reason not to take out the regime.
I don't really recall him advocating for a war with Iran, but rather predicting that a confrontation was inevitable because a nuclear Iran was unacceptable. I'll remind you that that position is symmetric to Obama's in 2015 when they were months away from a few months away from nuclear weaponization.

I will refer you to a Vanity Fair piece he wrote after he spent time in Iran. Speaking about him like he's John Bolton or Sean Hannity or Donald Rumsfeld is just wrong.

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« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 06:34:54 AM by Shostakovich »
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benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13014 on: January 16, 2018, 06:31:59 AM »
GOP.com once again with the hottest memes:

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13015 on: January 16, 2018, 06:32:34 AM »
2003: "Let's do this war in Iraq!"


2011: "Guys, we need a war to preserve international law."


Motherfucker...

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13016 on: January 16, 2018, 06:34:03 AM »
Can you imagine what would happen if there were a country in the Middle East which acquired nuclear weapons all while officially denying it?

...

Mandark

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13017 on: January 16, 2018, 07:09:41 AM »




William F. Buckely, ladies and gentlemen!

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13018 on: January 16, 2018, 07:58:54 AM »
When you're ready to be serious and deal with these issues like an adult and produce the ability to be worth talking to, let me know where to meet so I can sock you in your goddamn mouth.

benjipwns

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Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13019 on: January 16, 2018, 08:29:57 AM »
Random benji historical story that nobody cares about but might make up for making 20 dumb posts about Greenwald and Hitchens.

Everybody here is probably familiar with the Jefferson quote about watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants from time to time. That was from a short page long or so letter he wrote to John Adams son-in-law that was a bit of rhetorical flourish.

At the same time he was writing a longer letter to James Madison, they had a tendency to geek out and write letters trying to construct governments and such. The former letter contained the nugget of the idea, but Jefferson's letter to Madison contained none of that for a more specific outline of the concept. Essentially it was that generations lasted about 19 years, future generations shouldn't be bound by current generations, so basically governments should sunset after 19 years, the new generation could re-enact it or enact something entirely new. This has gotten some historical attention, as has Madison's general dismissal of the idea as more or less impractical especially for the time, and Jefferson agreed with him on the specifics but felt there was a way to figure it out, but then he became Secretary of State, later President, the French Revolution did not go as he hoped, etc. and never really revisited the idea.

What I found interesting about Jefferson's more elaborate proposal to Madison and Madison's reply, something I was not aware of until recent weeks, was that Madison actually did write a rather lengthy reply and it was much more declarative than his going "well, that seems like it has some good parts but I don't know how it'll work." And related to what Jefferson included with a seemingly unnecessary amount of math to decide on 19 years and other things.

It wasn't just the government or laws that'd be refreshed. Jefferson proposed that most debts would also end, especially any incurred by those now dead. This didn't include all debts obviously, as you couldn't know next year was the big refresh and take out a loan for infinity dollars (not that anyone would loan it to you) then get it cancelled. Madison spent most of his reply actually arguing most forceably against this idea, not as unworkable or impractical, but as dangerous and almost certain to lead to violence rather than a peaceful refresh. Whereas the rest he was more like "needs work."

I think that Madison's most convincing argument may have been that Jefferson was making the current Millennial craze mistake, people born between 1875 and 2018 may all be Millennials according to the media, but some of them were born yesterday and others are legal adults or even older. How do you delineate regarding the debts? Especially since Jefferson allowed for some debts and not others. Jefferson wasn't the math whiz that Hamilton was, but he liked to dabble, like the John Hollinger of the first cabinet.

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Quote from: alt-right neonazi Tommy J
I set out on this ground, which I suppose to be self evident, "that the earth belongs in usufruct to the living": that the dead have neither powers nor rights over it. The portion occupied by an individual ceases to be his when himself ceases to be, and reverts to the society. If the society has formed no rules for the appropriation of it's lands in severality, it will be taken by the first occupants. These will generally be the wife and children of the decedent. If they have formed rules of appropriation, those rules may give it to the wife and children, or to some one of them, or to the legatee of the deceased. So they may give it to his creditor. But the child, the legatee, or creditor takes it, not by any natural right, but by a law of the society of which they are members, and to which they are subject. Then no man can, by natural right, oblige the lands he occupied, or the persons who succeed him in that occupation, to the paiment of debts contracted by him. For if he could, he might, during his own life, eat up the usufruct of the lands for several generations to come, and then the lands would belong to the dead, and not to the living, which would be the reverse of our principle.

What is true of every member of the society individually, is true of them all collectively, since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals.--To keep our ideas clear when applying them to a multitude, let us suppose a whole generation of men to be born on the same day, to attain mature age on the same day, and to die on the same day, leaving a succeeding generation in the moment of attaining their mature age all together. Let the ripe age be supposed of 21. years, and their period of life 34. years more, that being the average term given by the bills of mortality to persons who have already attained 21. years of age. Each successive generation would, in this way, come on, and go off the stage at a fixed moment, as individuals do now. Then I say the earth belongs to each of these generations, during it's course, fully, and in their own right. The 2d. generation receives it clear of the debts and incumberances of the 1st. the 3d of the 2d. and so on. For if the 1st. could charge it with a debt, then the earth would belong to the dead and not the living generation. Then no generation can contract debts greater than may be paid during the course of it's own existence.
Quote from: Thomas John Hollinger
Take, for instance, the table of M. de Buffon wherein he states 23,994 deaths, and the ages at which they happened. Suppose a society in which 23,994 persons are born every year, and live to the ages stated in this table. The conditions of that society will be as follows. 1st. It will consist constantly of 617,703. persons of all ages. 21y. Of those living at any one instant of time, one half will be dead in 24. years 8. months. 3dly. 1[8],675 will arrive every year at the age of 21. years complete. 41y. It will constantly have 348,417 persons of all ages above 21. years. 5ly. And the half of those of 21. years and upwards living at any one instant of time will be dead in 18. years 8. months, or say 19. years as the nearest integral number. Then 19. years is the term beyond which neither the representatives of a nation, nor even the whole nation itself assembled, can validly extend a debt.
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