US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP

[agrajag]

[Kara]

In 40K humanity *is* largely dependent on a technocracy that's not accountable to anything but itself and its military-civilian divide is so great the military is comprised of individuals who are no longer (strictly speaking) human.

But it also has a medieval guild with a monopoly on technology that thinks there's a machine god and a feudal governance structure.

It's almost like someone wrote a revisionist Dune in the heyday of Thatcherism or something.

[bluemax]

Totally needs a rad 80's theme song.

SPACE-FORCE!

[Mandark]

Discharge petition's been filed in the House for immigration bills.

Update: "moderate" Republicans caved, House will probably vote on a couple of GOP immigration bills, discharge petition is dead. Womp womp.

[Great Rumbler]

"moderate" Republicans caved

No way!

[Nintex]

https://twitter.com/Philip_Elliott/status/1009115551174623232
You may think this is a strange way to look at your neighbors but remember that Donald Trump had the likes of Manafort and actual Russian laundromat and illegal gambling operations for neighbors.

[Nintex]

The carnival of stupid intensifies.
https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1009179445289107456

Republicans seem to have some regrets

https://twitter.com/LissandraVilla/status/1009203771623333893

[Nola]

https://twitter.com/Kyle_Feldscher/status/1009189085980831753

[Mandark]

DC voters just passed an initiative to get rid of the tipping exception to the minimum wage.

The anti- campaign was predictably astroturf, an organization run by owners presenting itself as representing the workers.

[agrajag]

Mandark pls

No one in the industry wanted that to pass.

[Kara]

They were dumb if they wanted it to fail.

[agrajag]

How so?

[Kara]

People still tip in states without a separate tip wage; having a tip wage makes you more vulnerable to wage theft (which occurs at a comical rate in the industry); and a city swimming in dark money, lobbyists, and other miscellaneous human detritus like Washington isn't going to stop patronizing restaurants because of price increases.

Also if you make minimum wage and you say no to a raise you're just dumb, generally speaking.

[Mandark]

I know two (2) people who work as servers in DC, and they were both in favor of the initiative. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[agrajag]

Kara, it seems like you aren't speaking from knowing anything about working with tips. Having 10+ years in the hospitality industry, I will weigh i  why you are completely wrong and very presumptuous/arrogant for calling people dumb for not wanting the initiative to pass.

Tipped restaurant and bar employees in big cities such as D.C. make more, like way, way, way, way more than the minimum wage. If by some astronomically small chance they make less than the minimum wage, the employer will cover the difference. That's the minimum wage exception.

With this initiative, FOH employees are no required to be compensated the same minimum wage as anyone else. But here's the kicker, their employers are no longer required to let them keep their tips. In order to make up their losses from having to pay their employees 3x more their previous hourly wage (and make no mistake, it is an extremely small margin business model to begin with), the business owners can and will just tack on a mandatory service charge to their meals. Or they would have to increase their prices.

Either way, their higher hourly wages will be passed on to the customer. The level of service will decrease as, highly skilled workers will move to more lucrative cities. It's good for the lower skilled workers such as bussers and dishwashers, who will now be making the same minimum wages as the servers and bartenders. But do you really want a dishwasher to mix your drinks?

I was in DC for a few days two weeks ago and literally every fucking restaurant had a vote no on 77 sign on the window. Along with a rainbow flag and other Pride week regalia. It's mostly a very progressive city, but the people whose livelihood this initiative actually affects were universally against it.

There are some well known restaurateurs that have experimented with doing away with tips. They saw a substantial loss of qualified staff and lower earnings for their employees across the board. It's also shitty for people who grew up in a certain city and love living their and doing what they do to suddenly find themselves maki g a minimum wage (which is $12 in DC btw). So now they have to move somewhere because they can no longer pay rent/make a living.

[agrajag]

The only thing this accomplishes is it hurts small businesses, drives talented staff to other market, the level of service and quality goes down for the local patrons and tourists and the average customer ends up paying more (because not everyone tips the same, but now everyone is paying a 18-20% service charge). Where is the benefit?

Kara, servers/bartenders aren't getting a raise, they are taking a massive pay cut.

[Mandark]

Talking about presumptuous then saying "I was in DC for a few days" gtfoooooooooooo

[agrajag]

Talking about presumptuous then saying "I was in DC for a few days" gtfoooooooooooo

Uh, excuse me sir. Did you miss that I work in the hospitality industry and so I am intimately familiar with the tipping issue? I was in DC on a business trip, because I am moving there for a job in two months. This issue directly impacts my business.

[agrajag]

I know two (2) people who work as servers in DC, and they were both in favor of the initiative. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure, Jan.

[Mandark]

lol

[agrajag]

that all you got?

[Mandark]

Sorry, can't work up too much internet anger over this. It's just I've lived inside the beltway* since the Bush administration, and I wouldn't be that confident declaring "what everyone thinks," so it's funny when someone else does based on visiting for a couple days. Especially if you're gonna call out Kara for being presumptuous.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Granted, back in the burbs by a couple miles now.

[close]

[agrajag]

Dude, get the fuck out of here with that shit. None of my post was based on being there for a few days. I worked in the same exact fucking industry for over a decade, and I got hired to WORK IN THAT CITY. My boss was born and raised in DC and went to George Washington University. I trust him and other people that work in my industry that currently live in DC more than you. Florida has the same damn tipping exemption as the one DC just eliminated. I know this issue specifically. So what in the world are you talking about with your dumb strawman?

[Mandark]

calm down

[Trent Dole]

[Nola]

I mean the service industry is the service industry wherever you go. I bartended in a couple different states(it helped me basically pay through college without debt) and the game is the same pretty much anywhere. So I don't necessarily think being in DC is a prerequisite to understanding their industry.

Granted I have only read the Voxsplainer so someone feel free to correct my ignorance. But as I understood it the law is phasing in over the next 7 years a pay increase for tipped employees to eventually match the standard minimum wage. What I am unclear about is whether it is seeking to eliminate tipped wages altogether or not? Or how it might restructure that system?

Either way I would probably be worried if I was working in DC in the industry because I would fear it uprooting the norms around tipping etiquette(especially prematurely before the full wage kicks in) and ultimately be a major pay cut for most employees who go from a high tipped wage to set hourly wage. Maybe there is much more rampant tax evasion than I had come to believe based on my own experience, but the numbers in the Vox piece seem incredibly low for servers/bartenders.

[agrajag]

I mean the service industry is the service industry wherever you go. I bartended in a couple different states(it helped me basically pay through college without debt) and the game is the same pretty much anywhere. So I don't necessarily think being in DC is a prerequisite to understanding their industry.

Granted I have only read the Voxsplainer so someone feel free to correct my ignorance. But as I understood it the law is phasing in over the next 7 years a pay increase for tipped employees to eventually match the standard minimum wage. What I am unclear about is whether it is seeking to eliminate tipped wages altogether or not? Or how it might restructure that system?

Either way I would probably be worried if I was working in DC in the industry because I would fear it uprooting the norms around tipping etiquette(especially prematurely before the full wage kicks in) and ultimately be a major pay cut for most employees who go from a high tipped wage to set hourly wage.

Thank you, this is a reasonable take. I had a scathing reply for Mandark (something along the lines of how etoilet was right about him), but the point I was ultimately trying to get across was that many people in the industry, business owners and employees alike have a concern about this. And to call their concerns dumb is arrogant, it is not a dumb concern but a rational one.

I am not even against eliminating tips altogether in theory, but in practice it needs to be done in a reasonable way. Remember, the minimum wage in DC is not going to be $15 until 20-something.

[Nola]

Like I said I am not familiar enough to try and speak confidently about the legislation, because I am unsure what some of the details may be(and frankly too lazy to go searching more than i have right now).

But on scanning that Vox piece I would be worried about the ugly phase in period like mentioned happened in other states. Customers unsure whether to tip anymore, not grasping the wage is phasing in, tipped employees suffering from it. Though when I do get the itch to find answers, I am curious if there are any of the harmful things like the Trump administration proposed at one time of giving owners rights to earned tipped wages. Which I have seen mentioned by liberals in more roundabout ways as well as a poor solution to distributing tips more equitably amongst staff.

I definitely think tipped wages should be increased in places where it is still 2.15 an hour, ideally tacked to some sort of inflation metric. But often i do find liberals sympathies a bit misguided on this issue, seeing a problem through a distorted lens and sometimes seeking counter-productive solutions like trying to eliminate tipped wage models entirely. At least in a way that is far too inadequate to make it a net benefit on the whole for those workers.

[Kara]

If we're going to play expertise cards I've spent too many years actually seeing the books of minimum wage employers and, in addition, how they live their personal lives.

[Mandark]

I had a scathing reply for Mandark (something along the lines of how etoilet was right about him)

okay Drake

[Nola]

If we're going to play expertise cards I've spent too many years actually seeing the books of minimum wage employers and, in addition, how they live their personal lives.

I hear ya, but I would implore you to also hear from the people that represent those numbers. My experience comes from bartending in multiple states and managing in the industry at the end and right out of college. My girlfriend was a server for years(also paying most of her college through the industry) and most of my friends throughout life have experience in the industry from Colorado to New Orleans.

I think the point people(well me) are making is that there is a bit of victimizing of people that aren't really victims, that there is a risk of misunderstanding an issue and applying inadequate or counter-productive solutions. Again, I'm finding myself speaking on a law I do not feel comfortable making broad assertions about(though based on tonight I'm sure I'm gonna now be reading more in depth about it soon), but I think that is the sentiment Agrajag is coming from. It is a concern people are dismissing and I don't quite understand why? If we are trying to improve the lives of these people, perhaps consulting them makes some sense? I mean you are going to struggle to tell a bartender and server that they should turn in their $200-$300 a night shifts for a strict $15 an hour wage. If the books you look at reflect differently, I dare say maybe I overestimated how clean people ran things based on the the place I managed and how we handled the books, because the sort of numbers I see in many statistics do not reflect in my experience or anyone I have ever known across multiple states working in the industry.

[brawndolicious]

I'm always a generous tipper but now I'm convinced it should just be made outright illegal to tip.

Adjust all menu prices to reflect whatever the total tipped amounts were. If it's illegal, you won't have some restaurants experimenting with it and others not so there's no risk of losing customers to your competition.

Also, who the fuck thought it was a good idea to not pay upfront for better service? It would just make the server judge you based on assumptions about your socioeconomic class and sexuality. It's a really stupid system in a world of online shopping and AI that can drive delivery vehicles.

[Brehvolution]

I always over tip because I know for every one of me, there is 10 people who comically under tip or don't tip at all.

When I was in the now dying field of being a bus boy, the servers would have to give me a small portion of their tips. I would have to claim those tips in our time system. The accounting system didn't trust people accurately reporting tips. So it would project your possible tips if it felt you were skimping...... for tax reasons of course. Some people just don't realize that the tips are that server's income and their meager paycheck is sucked dry from taxes.

[Tasty]

I had a scathing reply for Mandark (something along the lines of how etoilet was right about him)

okay Drake

Looooolllll

[agrajag]

If we're going to play expertise cards I've spent too many years actually seeing the books of minimum wage employers and, in addition, how they live their personal lives.

Lmao if you think servers report how much they actually make to you.

[agrajag]

I had a scathing reply for Mandark (something along the lines of how etoilet was right about him)

okay Drake

Looooolllll

Mandark the coward sure showed me. Posting dismissive one liners instead of addressing anything. Tisk tisk.

[Tasty]

I was more laughing at your entire concept of "scathing."

[agrajag]

I was more laughing at your entire concept of "scathing."

do not mistake my kindness for weakness

[Kara]

Lmao if you think servers report how much they actually make to you.

Inveterate offenders aren't as clever about their tax evasion as they think they are.

And you're just dumb if you hide compensation subject to FICA taxes from reporting.

[agrajag]

I don't know what to tell you bro. If you're going to argue that servers/bartenders make anywhere close to minimum wage based on you keeping their books, I am going to assume you are lying to bolster your argument. Because that is absolutely absurd.

[Kara]

I hear ya, but I would implore you to also hear from the people that represent those numbers. My experience comes from bartending in multiple states and managing in the industry at the end and right out of college. My girlfriend was a server for years(also paying most of her college through the industry) and most of my friends throughout life have experience in the industry from Colorado to New Orleans.

I think the point people(well me) are making is that there is a bit of victimizing of people that aren't really victims, that there is a risk of misunderstanding an issue and applying inadequate or counter-productive solutions. Again, I'm finding myself speaking on a law I do not feel comfortable making broad assertions about(though based on tonight I'm sure I'm gonna now be reading more in depth about it soon), but I think that is the sentiment Agrajag is coming from. It is a concern people are dismissing and I don't quite understand why? If we are trying to improve the lives of these people, perhaps consulting them makes some sense? I mean you are going to struggle to tell a bartender and server that they should turn in their $200-$300 a night shifts for a strict $15 an hour wage. If the books you look at reflect differently, I dare say maybe I overestimated how clean people ran things based on the the place I managed and how we handled the books, because the sort of numbers I see in many statistics do not reflect in my experience or anyone I have ever known across multiple states working in the industry.

If you don't want to listen to my voice that's fine, all power to the soviets and so on.

I introduced my own background to the discussion because "I don't know how much the rest of you know about service industry culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shameless underreporting are huge parts of it," is an anecdotal argument from an off the record expert uncritically quoting the bosses. I also talk to bosses too and they even assume we're on the same side because of my class position. When I have to remind minimum wage employers that the minimum wage went up appeals to the pervasive existence of homo economicus as a minimum wage employer fall quite flat.

As for your argument about consultation, parents of working children were opposed to child labor laws. Should we have listened to them? Within the black market goods industry should we listen to the segment of salespeople who make a lot of money from the status quo when deciding whether or not to reverse prohibitions? While I acknowledge the basic logic of your argument it does have its limits.

[agrajag]

 

[Kara]

I don't know what to tell you bro. If you're going to argue that servers/bartenders make anywhere close to minimum wage based on you keeping their books, I am going to assume you are lying to bolster your argument. Because that is absolutely absurd.

I don't think that tipped employees make close to minimum wage in markets like D.C.

I think this is because I said, "Also if you make minimum wage and you say no to a raise you're just dumb, generally speaking." That was meant in a statutory sense and not an outcome one. My bad, especially since both you and Nola wasted time engaging with it.

[agrajag]

What do you think is the benefit of this initiative?

[Brehvolution]

Trump: "No minimum wage increases under my watch!"

Minimum wage earning trump voters: "Fuck Yeah! Own those libs!"

[agrajag]

Trump: "No minimum wage increases under my watch!"

Minimum wage earning trump voters: "Fuck Yeah! Own those libs!"

I think the "logic" of conservatives is that they believe they will pull themselves by the bootstraps and not earn minimum wage for long. It's inconceivable to them that they all won't be millionaire's at some point.

[Joe Molotov]

Trump: "No minimum wage increases under my watch!"

Minimum wage earning trump voters: "Fuck Yeah! Own those libs!"

I think the "logic" of conservatives is that they believe they will pull themselves by the bootstraps and not earn minimum wage for long. It's inconceivable to them that they all won't be millionaire's at some point.

Or they might just be dumb, generally speaking.

[agrajag]

Trump: "No minimum wage increases under my watch!"

Minimum wage earning trump voters: "Fuck Yeah! Own those libs!"

I think the "logic" of conservatives is that they believe they will pull themselves by the bootstraps and not earn minimum wage for long. It's inconceivable to them that they all won't be millionaire's at some point.

Or they might just be dumb, generally speaking.

In a statutory sense?

[Brehvolution]

https://splinternews.com/heres-stephen-millers-cell-phone-number-if-you-need-it-1826985626

[nachobro]

 

[Joe Molotov]

Despite it being Democrats fault and only something that Congress could fix, Trump has once again bravely stepped up to solve a problem of his own making. Our greatest living US American president of the United States.

[Nola]

If you don't want to listen to my voice that's fine, all power to the soviets and so on.

I introduced my own background to the discussion because "I don't know how much the rest of you know about service industry culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shameless underreporting are huge parts of it," is an anecdotal argument from an off the record expert uncritically quoting the bosses. I also talk to bosses too and they even assume we're on the same side because of my class position. When I have to remind minimum wage employers that the minimum wage went up appeals to the pervasive existence of homo economicus as a minimum wage employer fall quite flat.

As for your argument about consultation, parents of working children were opposed to child labor laws. Should we have listened to them? Within the black market goods industry should we listen to the segment of salespeople who make a lot of money from the status quo when deciding whether or not to reverse prohibitions? While I acknowledge the basic logic of your argument it does have its limits.

I feel like we might just be taking past each other here lol.

My point has really only been that often what seems like a good idea in theory, based on sound logic and empathy: man, these servers are getting screwed by the owner class, they are making 2.15 an hour and the BLS says they are barely scrapping by on near minimum wage, wow, a $15 an hour minimum wage, and eliminating tipping, would do wonders for them! End the exploitation!!

Is in reality, I would argue, not an accurate picture of the situation writ large. Most people in the industry make far more than the minimum wage(and if you unfortunately don't, law requires owners to pay them that minimum wage), which is why so many are willing to put up with people's shit and an ultra high stress workplace, often with some labor exploitation, because working 5-6 hours, with a fairly flexible schedule, and going home with $100-$300 a night is far more than you will get at almost any retail or hourly service industry job that doesn't require a college degree.

So I get the concern people in the industry might be feeling in DC. Concern over how this may affect their bottom line negatively. Though if this can turn into an Oregon or California situation where people still adhere to reasonable(but maybe adjusted) norms that make these business models work, than it would end up being a major boon to these employees.

[curly]

abolish tipping so larry david has to come up with a new storyline for the next season of curb your enthusiasm

[agrajag]

Nola, I mentioned this in my long post already, but it is being ignored for some reason ( ). So I'll say it again. Under the tipping exemption system, they already had guaranteed minimum wage.  In other words if they made less than 12.50 an hour with their minimum wage + tips, the employer had to pay the difference. This literally fixes a problem that didn't exist.

If they raised the minimum wage to 15 in 2024 or whenever it is projected in DC, they would still be guaranteed 15 an hour under the tip exemption law. Now their tips are not guaranteed, there is nothing stopping the employer from charging a service fee that no longer goes into the employees' pocket.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

on a side note, many places, including in DC, already charge an 18% service fee, but under tipping exemption those service fees are distributed amongst the FOH staff. They no longer have to do that.

[close]

[Nintex]

Despite it being Democrats fault and only something that Congress could fix, Trump has once again bravely stepped up to solve a problem of his own making. Our greatest living US American president of the United States.

Reading up on the now totally independent we take no sides call us CNN Trumpkins like Scaramucci they're going to pin this thing on Sessions or the former head of DHS(John Kelly).
Sessions made the PR dumpster fire worse when he said:
“[...] In Nazi Germany, they were keeping the Jews from leaving the country."

Trump liked how Nielsen handled it, so she's off the hook. 
Marco Rubio blasts that before long Dems will want amnesty for all illegals.

Cabinet members now 'iced out' by the President: Mattis, Kelly, Sessions.

Looks like the military wing will lose to the carnival after all. Having survived the NY liberal wing (Scaramucci, Javanka) and GOP establishment (Priebus, Spicer) wing of the Trump admin.
Also, Trump's economic advisor dropped dead last week but I don't think anybody noticed. Sarah Sanders is on her way out too to be replaced by a former Fox News host already holding another position in the admin.

[agrajag]

Nintex still going with the 8th dimensional chess angle, I see.

[Mandark]

Though if this can turn into an Oregon or California situation where people still adhere to reasonable(but maybe adjusted) norms that make these business models work, than it would end up being a major boon to these employees.

By far the most likely scenario where this doesn't happen is one where restaurants list a "service charge" on the bill (to create the impression it's going to the servers) and remove the tip line.

[Nintex]

Nintex still going with the 8th dimensional chess angle, I see.

It seems more like deflecting, reactionary and improvisation after it blew up in their faces in a way they hadn't imagined.

I don't think any of this was planned.

[agrajag]

Yes, but you really think Trump himself isn't paying a political price for this? Everything has limits, he can only deflect for so long. His statement about "something to do with a thing called empathy  " speech was pathetic.

[Nola]

Nola, I mentioned this in my long post already, but it is being ignored for some reason ( ). So I'll say it again. Under the tipping exemption system, they already had guaranteed minimum wage.  In other words if they made less than 12.50 an hour with their minimum wage + tips, the employer had to pay the difference. This literally fixes a problem that didn't exist.

If they raised the minimum wage to 15 in 2024 or whenever it is projected in DC, they would still be guaranteed 15 an hour under the tip exemption law. Now their tips are not guaranteed, there is nothing stopping the employer from charging a service fee that no longer goes into the employees' pocket.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

on a side note, many places, including in DC, already charge an 18% service fee, but under tipping exemption those service fees are distributed amongst the FOH staff. They no longer have to do that.

[close]

If what you say is the case(and I have no reason to doubt) that is flinging the doors wide open for owner grifting in the same way I was against the proposal Trump's administration was pushing to force tip distribution through the owner, giving them full authority to distribute(or not) any tips earned in the establishment.